Grind, and the Skill vs Time Played hypocrisy

Maybe I'm just short on patience, but I'm quite exhausted with the complaints about grind and UAS and this notion that the game isnt skill > time played. How many times am I going to be subjected to that most ubitquious of arguments, but, but but, but, thats what it says on the box!!!

What it says on the box is open to interpetation, which is where the problems stem from. Twitch gamers read the box and belive that this game was gonna be some kind of 3rd person-Roleplay-shooter. Although such a game is a contradiction by nature. So they are up in arms because of the so called "grind" in this game. They cry about having to unlock skills because doing so makes those who spent the time doing it have an advantage and such they believe the game is time > skill. I dont see this to be the case. It takes NOTHING by comparison to any other online ROLEPLAYING game on the market to make one character competitive in PVP. Yes, thats only one character, but in no time you can have a character up and ready to go with all his elites and droks... Hell drumming it up on my own without anyone running me around it took me about 2 and 1/2 weeks to have a monk that I could make competitive if I chose to. So yes, once that little bit of time is spent, all things are equal. Yes, If I choose to go into the comp arena at lvl 16 with no elites... its time over skill, but once I had invested the requisite, and minimal amount of time to make that monk (and later my mesmer) ready, they are quite capable of holding thier own with any other 20th lvl monk (or mesmer) out there. If they dont, its my lack of practice in PVP that is the reason, and THATS Skill > Time spent. Of course, Having not had anyone run me around, and drumming it up on my own, took longer than many people take to get that competitive, but when I do my job as my monk, and contribute to the win, its not time over skill, its my skill that let me do my job, or thier lack of skill to stop me from doing it. The argument that everything should be unlocked in the interest of Skill > Time is not valid in my opinion. At least call it what it is, "I want to be competitive with every class without having to do anything twice."

Whats more, many of these people who cry that the game needs to have all skills unlocked for pvp so that it can be a level playing field, and so that anet can "keep thier word" about the skill > time comment on the box, (which I belive they've done an admirable job of doing.) are the same ones who will go out of thier way to make the introductory pvp areas (ascalon,shiverpeak) completely unbalanced, and a completely unlevel playing field. MANY of the ones who are "hardcore" pvp and having characters run thru the game so they can unlock more things for thier pvp play, cant seem to help themselves from bringing things to the ascalon and shiverpeak areanas that have NO buisness there. The Hypocricy of it just kills me. On the one hand they cry because they cant just log in with zero playing hours and have a level playing field as any class they want at any time. They say that it violates the skill > time thing. Yet, ask any one of them why they think its right to wear droks and use elite skills in the ascalon arena, and 80% of the time its "I worked hard for the money to get run for this stuff, I deserve to have an advantage."

Maybe its just me but it sounds that sounds an awful lot like an argument for Time Spent > Skill....

That having been said, I'll espouse the same solution for the issue that I have since I started at this board. Hopefully it wont get me banned like it did at TGH.

The twitch crowd who thought they were buying a 3rd person-roleplay-shooter are not gonna be happy untill they get thier skills. So, give them all thier skills/items/armors whatever. Then remove them from the rest of the game they dont give 2 rats asses about. Seperate PVP only from RP characters. I'm sure I'm not the only mainly PvE character who would pvp more if I were only facing other PvE characters.

The bottom line is that complaining about grind in this game is like complaining that the stripper giving you a lap dance has too perfect of a body. Nobody who knows what grind really is could do it with a straight face. Even so, the twitch crowd, and the RP'ers are never going to see eye-to-eye on this. So seperation is the best answer.

Lets see, you have to go through the game 3 times just to unlock anything which is repetitive, no doubt about that. skill points are 20k each. There is no diversity in this game to make it fun. No puzzles, no new monsters, no new music, no new armours unless you grind super hard, and the list goes on.

And since when can you compare Grind:Game::Perfect Body:Stripper? That's more of an opposite. In fact it's more simply like this. Worst aspect:Subject1::Best aspect:Subject2.

Also, I've already paid an outrageous sum of money for this game which I feel like I've thrown away because this game is such a pain in the ass. Not to mention I'm tired of seeing and talking about how horrible this game is, but there has to be action taken. Then again it's like I'm whispering into a pillow in my mind while being the last man on earth. Anet isn't doing jack shit.

Incorrect and an exaggeration. You can unlock all you need to have one competitive character without even finishing the game. Skill points are only twenty K if you are trying to have every skill on one character. As far as the rest of it, Fun is what you make of it, and more new things are on the way. Besides that, Fun is subjective.

Spoken like a true twitcher. Where you're wrong is that with GW,Grind is not the worst aspect of it, in fact, the lack thereof is one of the best aspects of it. Thus, complaining about the perfect body, best aspect of the stripper, cause its sure not her conversational skills, is much like complaining about grind in GW.

I dunno what planet youre on, but I didnt pay any more money for this than I did for morrowind/KOTOR/Diablo2+LOD... and far less than I payed for EQ/DaOC/MotorCity/Neocron/Planetside in total... Surely I've gotten my money out of GW, I'm forced to wonder what you did wrong that you havent.
As Far as Anet not doing anything, youre just plain wrong, they've done much more and much more quickly than I ever expected to see for not paying a monthly fee... maybe you should go back to CS or wherever you came from.

The Guild Hall sucks. They allow flames about how BAD the game is but when one is started about how GOOD the game is they ban the person. I left with a very nasty post flaming the mods that was deleted. It made me feel a hell of a lot better.

I want to make 4 points.

1st, it does take time to unlock the skills. I'm not arguing with that.

2nd, I and a lot of people like unlocking skills. It adds a reward for a job well done.

3rd most twitch gamers that play seem to have never enjoyed an RPG. They are satisfied with there reward being 1/3124 on a CSS server. However those of us who are RPG veterans love the reward of getting new stuff.

4th the reason there will NEVER EVER be a UAS is because A.net wants to leave the arenas competitive for PvE charaters.

About your fourth point, I sincerely hope youre wrong, IF they seperate PvP only characters from RP. I wouldnt belive Anet would be dumb enough to further unbalance pve players out of competitive play.

If I remember correctly, ANet is explicitly on record as saying that there will NEVER be UAS in Guild Wars now that it's gone retail. It was there as a testing device in alpha/beta periods, but it's NEVER coming back. I don't have a link to a quote or anything, but I'm fairly certain that is ANet's position.

That I believe would be a shame, I wish they would have more faith in the RP game that they have just about created and trust those of us who like cooperative play as much as competitive play to keep that side of the game alive after they remove those who wanted guild wars to be CS3. Giving those players thier own server where they can do thier pvp-only thing all day.


Ya know what I saw it, and I don't recall him saying that you'd be able to be competitive with any class in the game with zero hours played. Interesting enough though that you would sign on a personal attack and seemingly have no opinion about the clear hypocrisy of the Skill > time argument when viewed in the light of how 90% of them act when they have the power to make the fight Time > Skill...

I think you misunderstood what I said. There will not be a UAS so that PvE players can bring their characters in and be competitive with the PvP only players.

No, I get it. But rather than continuing to have competition between PVE and pvp only characters, which due to the relative inflexability of pve characters is already out of balance, I'd like to see seperation and allowing PVE to only compete with other PVE. So, thus, I hope youre wrong, and that there will be unlock all skills, but only IF they seperate PVE and pvp only.

Um, no, a great deal of Anet's most vocal detractors on the pvp issue are banned from TGH. If a "fanboy" got banned it's the same reason we did, you were flaming your head off.

Guys... there isn't going to be UAS, and there isn't going to be a total separation of PvE and PvP play. This is the model ANet wants to work with. This is the game they wanted to create. I'm not trying to offend anybody in either "camp"... but the fact of the matter is that those things are never going to happen because ANet doesn't want them to happen. To do so would not be in line with the game they are trying to create. And in my opinion, I don't see enough of the player base asking for those things in a way that would make ANet change their minds. So let's just play the game that we have shall we?

The thing that bugged me the most about unlocking was that I thought I would be able to try skills out with pvp and then unlock them with pve- not the other way around. I think they should have just kept the two seperate and none of this mindles unlocking first buisiness for pvp- then there would be no grind and it would be like two seperate games entirely.

Anway, this game is free after purchase, and beats the hell out of any rpg games ive seen that are free, so why bitch about it? Remember Temple of Elemental Evil? Or Ruins of Myth Drannor? (I liked that one, but this is hella better)

Sadly, youre probably right. I applaud thier noble goal and thier effort towards making the game a singular experience that the twitch crowd and the RP crowd are both going to be able to enjoy simultaneously. That having been said, I think its a fools errand. As far as just playing the game, I'm all for it, in fact I'm often wondering why some people seemingly CANT just play the game. Nope, they have to bot, or they have to buy money from 3rd parties, or they have to get run everywhere. I'd pay to play a game where people just play it.

That having been said UAS is not the only facet of this thread. I'm attempting to come to grips with how people who complain about skill > time can turn around and behave the way they do in the introductory pvp areas. Given the opportunity to do so, the vast majority toss skill > time directly out the plate glass window and laugh gleefully as it gets hit by a passing truck. Interesting how nobody who would flame me or disagree with my ideas about how this game is much more skill > time than any other roleplaying game out there, has anything to say about that clear hypocrisy.

1) What do you define as "competitive?"
2) "Only" 20k? To whom, a PVPer or a PVEer?
3) No, fun is not subjective to the extent you're attempting to make it out. We can draw the line at anything that isn't PVP is not fun to someone that likes PVP and vice versa to a PVEer and PVE.

In other words, Sanji is right and you're really just ranting about something you don't like. Same as you did with the so-called "Invinci-monks" which you refused to let go.

In this thread, you have a problem with the way ArenaNet has intended the game. That being that PVP and PVE are linked. You don't like that. You have two courses of action: keep whining or get over it. Only one of these will lead anywhere. I leave it up to you to choose.

Let me add that question 1 is loaded. That alone should give you pause. I feel you are an intelligent person so perhaps this will give you something to think on.

Regarding your comment on conduct in the introductory PvP areas: Most of the "hardcore" PvP players don't even consider those areas to be serious PvP environments. REAL PvP starts in the Tombs and includes GvG (and MAYBE the team areana). So what happens in those introductory areas doesn't apply to serious PvP play. Why? Because the conditions don't allow for any planning or strategy. The random nature of the maps and your teammates/opponents negates any planning or forethought you put into your build.

Now, does that excuse the conduct of runners who take Poison Arrow into the Ascalon Arena? Of course not... but it does explain the general apathy towards the issue.

1.) I define competitive by the fact that my Mo/Me, due to the fact that he has all the skills he can have as a Mo/Me, the best armor he can wear, and weapons that are are good enough as its not his primary function to attack with them, could be a match pound for pound, with any other Mo/Me out there. Like I said, if hes not, its not the character or lack of skills collected, its lack of MY skill. Since a player who is more skilled than me, who has a monk with all skills and similar armor/weapons, could probably do better than I could due to his skills, I'd say that character, if not me, could be competitive.

2.)20k is not alot of gold. Hell, before anet fixed protbond it was nothing to sell that piece of shit -50hp necro focus for more than that, and it might only be a little bit harder now that protbond is fixed.

3.)Fun is entirely subjective. Whats fun to you, may not be fun to me. It even supercedes the boundaries between pve and pvp. You might think being a part of the zillion cookie cutter teams out there and winning alot is fun, I might have more fun being part of an all Ranger/monk superpet team with B's Aura on each. LoL how funny would it be to see 8 pets rush at some dude and surround him, each with a balths aura running... thats lots of disenchants needed... Yea, its a stupid idea, but the point is, fun is subjective.

Even if Anet never intends to seperate PvE and Pvp, as would be the best solution, how does the fact that they are never going to do it make me any worse than those who are constantly complaining about skill > time? Particularly in light of what most of those same people do when they get the chance to make it time > skill...

I like RPGs. I like reward for advancement. Unfortunately, this type of gameplay can be done in a single-player game. When I came to Guild Wars, I was looking for a multiplayer experience, a competitive experience. Guild Wars was advertised as having minimal grind. It was also advertised as allowing you to jump right into the PvP world with a level 20 character right from the get-go. I bought the game, hoping to fully appreciate both PvE and PvP.
PvE is fun. I had a good time doing it. But it's not exactly dynamic. No matter how many times you play, Ascalon will always be destroyed, Rurik will always die, you will alway desert the White Mantle, and you will always trust the Vizier, despite his necromancy and suspicious goatee. Simple fact of the matter is that (for most people), replaying PvE yields a diminishing entertainment value. Don't get me wrong, PvE is great. But PvP is considered by many to be the "end game", due to it's dynamic, ever-changing, unpredictable nature.
Herein lies the problem. I was lucky that I enjoyed playing through PvE the first few times. But if a player wanted to jump right into PvP, and do PvE later or not at all, they simply don't have that option. They were limited to the pre-made builds, like the IVEX Trapper or the Minion Master. While not horrible builds, they are still severely limiting. The builds are not exactly varied (there are two Nec/Mes, for example), and most are flawed in some way. If anyone wants to be truly competitive in PvP, they need to play through PvE first.
While you say PvE took you "only" two and half weeks, two and a half weeks is a very long time to a casual gamer. Especially one that doesn't enjoy or isn't interested in the PvE portion of the game. Would you seriously want to play a game for two and half weeks before getting to "the good part"? While I agree with you that Guild Wars has much, much less "grind" than your average RPG or MMORPG, I don't see the harm in a further reduction of "grind".
Faction points were added not long ago, creating the illusion that a player could "advance" through PvP alone. Unfortunately, the Priests of Balthazar needed to exchange Faction points for skills were placed in PvE-only areas, meaning you had to play through PvE up to at least Droknar's to even have a prayer of a chance for unlocking all skills through PvP. To add insult to injury, the Faction rewards were at a ridulously low level until the PvPX event, making unlocking skills through PvP even -more- of a "grind" than unlocking them through PvE.
All I'm saying is that it should be at least -possible- to be a real contender in PvP without having to play through PvE first. You should be able to progress in skill acquisition through PvP at relatively the same rate as PvE.
While seperating PvP only players from PvE players isn't a bad idea, I think it' clear that A.Net doesn't intend to do this. It would split the game population in (roughly) half, making PvP 50% less dynamic, 50% less exciting, 50% less fun.
I think the better solution would be to simply keep the rates of Faction gain at the level they were during PvPX, perhaps a little less, and move the Priests of Balthazar into areas accessible to PvP-only players. This way, there is still a slight "grind", but with greater and more frequent "rewards" in the form of more unlocked skills, item mods and runes. Hardcore PvPers would be happy because they would become "contenders" at a faster rate, and PvE-only players would be happy because they would still feel a sense of accomplishment in their unlocking, and also because the PvPers still need to do some work. And everyone would get to play together, and join hands under a rainbow in the sunshine of Pre-Searing Ascalon and sing camp songs.
Just my two cents.

So you're saying that a game that was "build from the ground up for competition" should involve character developement and constant hinderances on the fun of competitive play? I'd have to say your interpretations are confused, at best.

1) You're wrong. So wrong, it's not even funny. You're not even remotely competitive in a competitive environment. Look over what I just said. Competitive in a competitive environment. All that matters is that you have all the Mo and Me skill unlocked. If you're actually trying to be competitive, then you should (not need) to have other skills from other porfessions unlocked since your team may need you to have them. That's what this game is about. 8vs8, GVG. That's where the balance lies. So while you may be competitive on your Mo/Me in PVE or in the Arenas, it matters not in the team setting, unless the team can, not must, adapt to you.

This is where your mistake lies and why you fail to understand PVP. PVP players want flexibility. One wants to adapt and change to their team's needs and not the other way around.

2) What? Who was talking about gold? You brought up 20k per skill point. Your nor I said anything of gold.

3) You actually didn't say anything at all to my point. Someone that likes PVP will like PVP more than PVE. Someone that like PVE will like PVE more. If one is required to take part in something one does not enjoy solely to get to the part one does enjoy, one will not be having fun.

It makes you worse because PVP and PVE being linked is the whole point of the game. Skill vs Time is can be discussed. UAS and a PVP/PVe split can't be because it's already been said it will never happen.

Wow... stunning logic, really? So what your saying is if a team needs my Monk/Mesmer to have warrior skills they dont need a Monk/Mesmer?? I cant imagine that... What I'm saying is, if the team needs a Monk/Mesmer, Mine is as good as any other RP created Monk/Mesmer out there. Your point just goes to further illustrate the imbalance between RP and PVPonly characters because of the relative inflexability of RP characters. If Anet really wants RP characters to be a signifigant part of competitive play, and wants to pacify all the people who cry about the so called grind in this game, the solution is the seperation of RP and PVP only characters. Tada! Everyones happy! The PVP only people can play it like the 3rd person roleplay shooter they want it to be, and the rest of us can play the roleplaying game and actually value our characters instead of thinking of them as temporary holding bins for the skillset we want to take into pvp.

FiveDisgruntled, Thank you for your well thought out and on topic post. I agree with most of what you said. I'm sorry to report that I don't agree that a faction fix alone will get the job done. If no other changes are made, and the pvp only crowd gets thier UAS, or MUCH faster skill unlocking it will only serve to unbalance RP characters right out of competitive play. We are already at a disadvantage as so elloquently stated by the gentleman I qouted. Nope, no changes like that to pvp without the seperation.

I think this everyone agrees on, except Anet. But just leave out the analyzing and flaming of the PVP perspective, and nobody is disagreeing with you. Not the players anyway.

Wow, Elistan, way to completely glance over my post. If you'd actually bothered to read my post you would understand that perhaps your team needs a Mo/Me. Perhaps your team needs a Me/Mo. But what if your team needs a Me/x or a Mo/x? Where do you fit in then?

Oh and good job on not replying to the rest of my post. I'm going to assume that you didn't have a rebuttal as of yet and you're simply trying to gather your thoughts.

Not another one of these... I don't think anyone here thinks that a skilled person couldn't beat a person who had played the game for a longer ammount of time.

Most of these people are just annoyed that, for example, you wanted to make a smiter you will be needing Ether Renewal. Let's say that this person first played the game as a Monk Necro and then used all of their skill points. Let's say this person enters the Tombs as an E/mo smiter. Now, this person finds out that he NEEDS Ether Renewal to run the build.

The player must either 1. Leave the group and spend 2 hours in FoW raking up skill points, leave, sub to Monk/Ele (Doing the quest if he hasn't already), buying a cap sig, running to Thirsty River, grabbing henchmen and then spending 20 minutes trying to find Vassa Si/Issiah whats-his-face and killing him 2. Use 3000 faction or 3. Never make a smiter.

"Oh, hey guys I'm ready" "we're in hoh" -.-;

I think UAS would cause alot more casual playing of the game. I think that "The Grind" is meant as a counter WoW, alot of people who bought this game just got it so they could PvP inbetween playing WoW. The more people trying to get UAS the less people playing WoW. The more people trying to get UAS the more people playing on the servers; perhaps the more will buy the expansions.

Now about PVE and PVP being tied together. I like it myself, it gives me a greater goal than just a stale pve game, something to earn, work for I enjoy that part of the pve game going after the skills so I can use them in PVP.

And just for the record PvP stands for Player vs Player, that can be anywhere from 1 vs 1 to 8 vs 8, so the elitist who think 4x4's aren't pvp can just get off their high horses. It takes MORE skill in the 4x4's especially the random arenas than it does in the 8x8's to be successful. You try coming up with a build that will work and counter as much as you can for a 4x4 random and you'll see the skill required to do so is much greater. If anything you have more "advantages" in 8x8's than you do in 4x4's. I'd personally like to see some 4x4 hoh type battles myself. 4x4 random is the most challenging, because you don't know what teammates you are going to get or what you are going to face, lots more fear factor there than any 8x8's and a lot more challenging and fun. And a lot more rewarding in faction points.

A-Net should bring fame and rank to 4x4 random and team arenas as well, so those of us who "don't like waiting for a group or who's guildmates are ever rarely online at the same time" can benefit from the rank and fame just like any other that pvps in the halls.

Really, you gotta stop making my point for me and telling me i'm wrong at the same time. I UNDERSTAND what you mean, and youre right, just like I SAID, RP characters are at a basic disadvantage already due to relative inflexability, thank you for affirming me on that. Yet, despite the fact that youre affirming my arugment that RP characters are already at a disadvantage, you dont seem to be comprehending that if the PVP group isnt looking for A MO/ME i dont care, because thats what I am. Thats what that character IS... I know, character is a tough term for twitchers to understand, and thats cool, who wants to get attached to thier "character" only to be beaten to the flak cannon and gibbed.... If a group is looking for a MO/N for example, I would say sorry, thats not me, good luck. I'd be capbable of competing with a team who was looking for a Mo/Me. Get it?

I can understand that, but RP characters are already at a disadvantage, and if they pvponly crowd gets what they want with uas/much faster skill aquire it will just further unbalance competitivie play towards pvp only characters.

When I speak about seperation of RP and PvPonly, I do not mean that RP characters will not be in competitive play, just strictly with other RP characters.

http://www.guild-hall.net/forum/showthread.php?t=25365

I Agree PVP Action is key.

PVP action is indeed key. How that action is handled is the difference.

The twitches want what they have in thier twitch games, characters even more generic than the ones in this game, and repetitive fights over and over which serve no purpose other than e-penis swordfighting, hey everyone, lets make a third person roleplaying version of team fortress... lol.

Roleplayers also like to compete directly with other players, but they want character development, they want a reason to fight other than the rights to type "pwned". Even if its a cheesy in game plot that says My faction dislikes this other faction, its a reason beyond "pwned".

These differences will never be settled. This is why anet needs to seperate pvp only from RP gaming and let them have thier server for thier lil epenis jousting. That way all the people who thought this was supposed to be 3rd person cs can be happy, and then anet can work on getting more content in the RP game.

ANet made a step in the right direction by moving to balance the Tombs Tournament.
Only two things remain:

1) Implement at least x15 faction rewards
2) Make the HoH a non-defensive two team match.
3) Implement non-scripted endgame PvP-like PvE matches against NPC's.
(Warcraft3 DotA map and 'Fortress Defence' comes to mind...)

http://www.guild-hall.net/forum/showthread.php?t=26095

Make the game's PvP playable to its fullest after ascending with one character, and make further ascending and mission repetition purely optional. Farming and repeating the same scripted missions is runining the game.

Anyone who says that they got all the gear and skills in 2 1/2 weeks isn't a casual player. I've been playing since release and I still don't have all the skills, nor all the skills I need for some builds - for example, there is Feast of Corruption that I haven't picked up yet, because it is out of the way and I just don't have time. I don't even consider myself casual - I have 400 hours between 3 characters. I still am missing tons of runes, including 3 minors I believe - Energy Storage, Blood and Axe Mastery. I have even larger gaps in my major runes and I have next to no Superiors - my best fleshed out class for superiors is my necro, which has Soul, Death and Curses, and I suspect I have none unlocked in some classes - though I got lucky and got a superior Vigor way back, in fact before I unlocked a major vigor. If I want to make a build that uses a big rune I don't have I pretty much need to buy the stupid thing, and use one of my PvE characters - they all have full rune sets anyway, so I can take any combo of runes with me.

PvP is not easily unlocked for a "casual" player, and even for those who are less casual it takes a while - sure, I could have jumped on the 105 bandwagon, but I shouldn't have to mindlessly farm to try to unlock runes - that kind of garbage is for the grind-lovers out there. I have no interest in farming.

I'm absolutely with Elistan on this whole thread.

The game has been out for months now and nobody should still be complaining about any grind. It takes almost no time to do a tiny bit of run through on the PvE side. Deal with it and quit complaining.

Even the very small amount of time it does take on the first character it takes less than half that on the second. I started my War/rnger on a rainy saturday and had him to level 20 by the end of the day. That includes doing all the easy skill quests and with no help or run through at all.

If people would spend a fraction of the time they spend complaining about the grind actually getting the skills they'd have them in no time at all.

I'm also FOR UAS, and I don't care that much if they split off PvE or PvP.

You Can be competitive right away, I know I've won my fair share of matches with just the pre-builts. That's all the box or any statement ever gave. They never said you'd have UAS, in fact they said in beta that they were doing it to test them out.

I've never played an online game that has been so flawless in performance and so forthcoming with changes and updates. I've been in very few that don't have regular server crashes and major crashing bugs the first month of play.

There's things I don't like about GW, I'm by no means a unquestioning fan, but they've done a good job and delivered what they said they would.

How cute you even invented a new term for pvpers, "twitches" is it? The fact that you resort to such rash and rather crude generalizations detracts from your argument completely.

As a hardcore PvEr from Everquest, I started playing guild wars since it promised a competitive PvP environment that didn't take months, (or years in the case of EQ sometimes) to become competetive with the general competition. I enjoy pvp in a MMORPG (or CORPG as they like to call it)because it allows for far greater strategies and depth than your typical FPS, sort of in between a Real time strategy game and a FPS in my opinion. The fantasy environment and shiny swords is just a plus. While we would all like greater customization, there are far more pressing issues than making shiny new models for your sword.

Your system of Roleplaying PvP that you desire, if I am correct about my assumption, usually degenerates in what happen in Dark Ages of Camelot, a large major faction which completely dominates, and far far smaller ones which squabble with one another and in general do not stand a chance against the larger one. A more fluid system is necessary to prevent this from happening, while some may argue that the current system that Anet is using is TOO fluid and ephemeral, (after all all these wins and loses do not amount to anything than the ability to visit two zones and some statistics on a web page), it is arguably better than an environment where you either join Big Brother or simply get squashed with better players, numbers, and equipment.

The fact that you claim that you can be competetive by merely playing a sole character through the game shows that you have little or no idea how the higher forms of competetive play (basically anything besides random arenas) functions. Even if you remain devoted to a primary class, (monk for example, since it is what everyone else used), many of the other classes have various abilities that complement your role as monk, whatever the role as monk you will have play in whatever build your group will be forming. This can vary drastically, requiring many many skills, far greater than what you can acquire by simply playing through the missons from start to end. Couple this with the fact that obtaining skills that aren't acquired through quests are extremely tedious, and that repeating the same bland storyline line for the second and third time is even more so, and you will have a large population of PvPers complaining. The fact that you persist that people should view your character is "take it or leave it" shows that you have little interest in being competetive. PvP is all about adapting, something that even people who desire to compete in tombs fails to grasp, while their may be some unbalanced factors, like spirits once was, following a major trend only leads to problems against more inventive builds.

I suggest you review your opinion and open your mind a little before making such banal and rather poor arguments, but perhaps you should see a psychologist first and foremost, since you seem to have such a strong fixation on the human phallus.

I would just as soon not have to clean this thread out again. Akathrielah: While most of your argument is a GREAT example of what debate is supposed to embody, your last paragraph is a cheap shot.

To everyone else: This thread is again borderline in the debate vs. flame war department. Please don't cheapen your points by resorting to name calling. Argue the points civilly if you would.

Thanks and keep to the topic, everyone.

I don't see what is wrong with what Aka said. I have to agree that Elistan keeps making these threads and starting off by calling people stuff. There is no point to be made here, nothing productive can come when you start like that. It is just like a real theocrat, trying to stuff your own beliefs down someone elses throat heh. It feels nice to know you are banned from TGH e. theocrat If this was my site I would have banned you too ^^ While TGH is a bit UAS-centric for my taste.. at least the whining is somewhat in check..

I am really, really sorry to again criticize the mods here.. It is just feedback from one member, not a flame.. This guy makes several threads a week just like this.. closed minded, pointless, and offering no solution (against your own rules) but he runs unchecked.. I made what I feel to be a very valid thread a few days ago... I quoted from the state of the game letter and a recent FF with James Pheeney where he said we would have a reasonable 1-2 week warning before skill changes would be made. We didn't get that.. we got a partial list taken from just one of the fansites about 24 hours before a surprise 2 AM patch.. Other than the title "Another lie from ArenaNet" (it is the truth) I don't see what could be wrong with my thread.. what happened to it? Closed within a half hour... why? Is it ok for e. theocrat to criticize everyone who doesn't see things his way and persist in his campaign of whining, but not ok to quote ArenaNet's hypocrisy? I have experience as an admin of a gaming site.. small at ~1,000 members but by far the largest for that game (English speakers in a foreign language MMORPG).. I would never let this type of stuff go on... please enforce your rules.. if you need more mod power recruit them.. make a rants forum and dump this garbage there.. there should be an outlet to complain in a constructive manner.. the threads e. theocrat and others spam us with are unneeded..

Anyway, I will try to be on topic now..

Anet has stated there will never be UAS, but we will see a permanent increase in faction soon. It took me a decent amount of time to get my 5k faction in random arenas. I have played three characters through the game and unlocked most skills for every class. To me faction is only really needed to get perfect weapon upgrades. Elite skills are not usually that hard to unlock. I got all runes except 4 or 5 superiors unlocked through grinding at my rune farming spot. I enjoy pve, pvp, and goofing around in town all equally. I don't want to pvp regularly until I have every single skill unlocked and can find a guild that likes to experiment with unique strats. Compared to other games the grind in GW is nothing. Still, faction has been way too low.. maybe the UAS crowd is a minority, but why can't they enjoy the game the way they want to too? IMO nothing less than 2x the increase we saw in eXtREeM PvP weekend and faction cap raised to 30k is a crime. PVP chars will never be separated from PVE chars.. compulsive whiners will never shut up.. sigh... w/e I am off to enjoy GW ^^;

WTF is "skill vs time played"?
The more you play, the more skilled you ought to be. You can spend time getting skills and equipment and/or accumulating PVP experience. If you do neither you will probably be a terrible player. If you do only the latter you will find that you are not versatile enough to be truly competitive at the higher tiers.

Also, a PVE character is just as competitive as a PVP character that uses the same exact setup. If that setup doesn't fit into the team you are trying to play with, then tough luck. Make a PVP char temporarily or something. But don't complain about PVE and PVP-only characters being on different playing fields. They are not.

That having been said, I do seriously dislike that I have to spend a considerable amount of time to HAVE many build options. It is taking me several days to go from a hardcore swords build to a hardcore hammer build, and these several days are not nearly as fun as it was going through missions for the first time, or using a new strong build in PVP.

Now, if Guild Wars were a collectible card game such as Magic, then its current system would be nearly identical to MTG. However, just like being able to make various decks in MTG (or tweak them at a moment's notice) requires $$$ spent on cards, being able to do the same in Guild Wars requires TIME spent on acquiring skills. I don't like having to spend $ on Magic cards; I enjoy playing the game. I don't like having to invest so much time into unlocking skills; I enjoy playing the PVP matches. If it took less $ for MTG, or less time for GW, I would mind less, just like everyone else who complains about the "grind."

What was I even replying to?

Please allow me to clarify here. Twitches isnt something I coined, I dont think, and if so, I do not apply it to everyone who prefers pvp to pve. There are plenty of PvP enthusiasts who are not twitches , I would cite you as an example going by what you stated. Twitches is derived from "twitch gaming". i.e. games where the only thing that seperates one player from being "pwned" by another is his skill with the mouse and keyboard, or whatever preferred means is used. I've often heard of UT/CS and the like referred to as twitch games. Its a generalization, i know, but lots of twitch gamers are kinda like the ones you might see in the comp arena sometimes. Ya know who I'm talking about, the guy who feels the need even after 2 of the 4 members of your team quit cause the other guy whos not you is 19th lvl, to pat himself on the back with a hard earned "pwned" or make some denegrating remark about how you suck because you couldnt beat his 4man team with your 2man team.. Anyone who wants to take GW, which is attempting to be more than an FPS/RTS and more than a common MMORPG, and turn it into a twitch game, I would call a twitch.

I'm not sure that I forwarded the idea of a new system. I'm simply stating 2 things. 1) that if anet is going to speed the unlocking of things for pvp, or give pvp only UAS, then it will unbalance PVE characters even further out of competitive play then they already are, so the seperation of pve and pvponly characters will be needed so that those of us who like cooperative play will be able to compete versus other RP characters. And, 2.) I'm highly disgusted about the things that go on in the introductory pvp areas. I know lots of people write it off because its not high end pvp. I Maintain that some number of new players are being turned off to pvp because of the crazy imbalance that goes on there. I personally wasn't turned off of tombs untill I realized that my PVE character even though he could perform as well as any other player of the same class would always have a hard time getting Tombs groups because of fact that he's simply not as flexible as someone who is happy to simply delete and rebuild that instant to get a group. I digress, I suspect some people are getting turned off to pvp because the same people who are screaming that the game isnt skill > time played enough for them do everything in thier power to make sure the introductory pvp areas are Time Played > Skill when given the chance to do so. Thats the Hypocrisy I mentioned.

Negative. I understand entirely how the tombs work, I've been with some groups that have been to the HoH a few times, have yet to win one, but its not currently a priority. I completely understand your point, and your point underlines and restates the issue I have with the fact that RP characters are already at a disadvantage in competitive play. I'll say it again to be sure it gets thru, when I mention that my monk is competitive, I say that on the grounds that within the limits of his classification, hes as good as any other monk with that classification. Of course hes not as flexible as a pvp only character, which of course is the reason why RP and PVPonly characters should be seperated.

Also, someone quoted me (loosely) as saying that I had all skills unlocked in two weeks and that makes me not a casual player. 1.)I didnt actually claim to be one. 2.)I never said I had all skills unlocked, I said that I had all primary and secondary profession skills unlocked for one character in that time. BIG difference.

Edit: Aniewiel, Thank you for erring on the side of allowing unpopular opinions to still be heard, that alone makes this board better than some I've been to. Also, fear not, I'll not let certain individuals bait me into personal arguments on the thread, let us hope that if they have further problems with how this board is moderated that they choose to handle that by PMs to the mods/reports rather than ranting off topic and throwing in a disclamer comment on topic to try to keep from looking like a troll.

For everyone else, lets say that there will never be a seperation of RP and PVEonly characters in competitive play as there should be, how would anyone propose that RP characters would remain even as poorly viable as they are now in high end competitive play if every pvponly character had all skill options available to him and was able to be SO much more flexible??

I have deleted your most recent post, coleslawdressin, because I feel it highly inappropriate to post even the partial contents of PMs you have received from ANY user of this forum. The reason that they are called PRIVATE messages is due to the private nature of the contents between the two users. Posting things sent between two individuals will not be tolerated.

You and Elistan are welcome to continue your personal character assaults in PRIVATE. The rest of us do not want to see them.

In an attempt to bring this topic back to it's intended subject... let me say that I think we need to accept some standard concepts.

First, UAS is never going to happen. ANet has said so and I doubt very much they will change their mind. I'm not saying this to try and antagonize anybody. It is simply a fact, a fact which should shape the course of this debate. There's no point in arguing the merits of UAS because it will never happen.

Second, PvP and PvE play will never be completely seperated. Again, this is because ANet has said that will never happen. The game they want to create involves a connection between the two, and I don't see them changing their mind on that one either. So again, I see very little point in arguing for or against this concept since the developers will not consider it.

For myself, I think if we spent nearly as much time trying to find enjoyment in the things we CAN do in the game as we do pointing out the things we can't, we would all enjoy the game a whole lot more. Look at the positives... we have free online play, devs who care about their product, and a passionate community. That's a lot more than most games have going for them.

So let's keep the debate constructive, and not dig up old horses that aren't worth beating again.

i just want to say this and end a very useless argument.

GRIND is an OPINION. it is subjective to everyone. personally i liked unlocking skills and lvling. lvl cap is good and balanced.

anet has moved faster and more efficiently to make changes and bring new events to us than any other game i have ever played. the game is free so stop complaining.

enjoy the game or just quit. either way you save yourself some stress and keep your blood pressure down.

only change that i and majority of community would like to see happen is refund points other than that they game is fine.

Off topic again, coleslawdressing. If you have an issue with the moderation, please send a PM and we can discuss it there.

Thank you Aracos79 for bringing things back to topic.