Grind, and the Skill vs Time Played hypocrisy

This is the way analogies work guys; very often they are wrong or flawed, however dismissing them 'because gw isn't a fps' is not sufficient. Unless you can specifically point out how the two instances are not similar or create a better analogy you're just going to have to deal with it.

GW shares many qualities with a FPS, as well as with many other types of games. GW has been compared to games like capcom vs marvel with sucess yet nobody would call this a fighting game.

Also, a learning curve is different than time spent unlocking.

Temporarily off topic:

Sciros and Phades: I split the threads about skill vs. experience into their own thread. You can find it here:

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...ad.php?t=53739

OKAY calm. down. you are mad. its okay to be mad. woosah (spell?)

Lol you guys watch bad boys 2?

anyways there is no grind in this game. which can be sort of a problemo....
if you think this is grind, please go and get your gameshark with your ps2 and play something else.

Two things...

1.) I've never said I'm "better" than anyone. I disagree with alot of the atttudes of people who play this game, but i've never said that makes me 'better' than anyone else.

2.) no character in this game is unique. Its a side effect of anet's misguided attempt to mix the RP and PVP only characters, in a noble but failed effort to make sure RP and PVPonly characters are balanced RP characters AND pvp characters are pretty vanilla. Rather plain, no depth. Wow, you use a hammer skill that is unpopular... that REALLY makes you unique... Theres no such thing as being unique in this game. There could be, but not untill they realize what a poor idea it is to have RP characters compete with PVP characters.

hey guys long time no post but jsut came to say hi i see same discussions are going on here (lol the usual rants and raves) i have been playing WoW and to be honest GW has taken a spot next to the rest of the dust collectors on my desk, problem being "NO CONTENT", level to 20 start another character, or farm till you get fissure armor,no thank you sir ill take WoW's grinding compared to the sitting around in town or farming the same area 30 times to get some armor that has the same effects of my droks armor but just looks cooler. Imo if a-net wants to keep people, they need to add some sort of grind,i honestly dont care what you guys think because i know ill get flamed for this post but who cares i come here once in a blue moon to check up on things and as i can see theyre still the same lol,which makes me wonder when this game will go under like the rest of the contentless games that have existed.Gridn has always been a part of rpg's,ever since i been playing them online with other people shoot, 7th saga for super nintendo was a MASSIVE GRIND! but guess what i playe dit for months and months, because i needed to level to be able to beat that boss, or get the demon to join my team. Basically what im sayin gis that this game will never survive at this rate, people like myself will leave.
yea i now, next post will read "good one less person on server space", or "we dont need you anyway" to that i say bite me lol
grind is needed to keep fan base, it worked for EQ it worked for DAoC, it worked for lienage 2, and its working for WoW soory but ill pay the 16$ a month to grind because every 2 levels i get new spells or abilities, i get something to look foward to, which GW dosent have to offer.

Yes i've tombed
Yes iv'e GvG'ed
Yes iv'e farmed
i've done it all, and the game got boring FAST!
2 months....no fun
grind=fan base
grind=something to look foward to and work hard for
in this game grind =getting some lame ass armor with the same stats as drok armor =X
sorry if i offended or went off topic, just alot to say since i ben gone and realized what this game lacks

I don't belive that this post is off topic. And since i'm the OP, i'm the only one whos opinion on that really matters.

I believe your correct, and I believe that you also hit upon something else that I stated. I think that GW could be the best game on the market hands down, right now I play it instead of what was my favorite online game because its free to play, and I'm still havin fun with it. Youre right though, the game is short on content, I'm afraid that the RP side of it wont change that much though because of the outcry that would occur from the twitch crowd, which Is why I think anet should seperate RP characters from PVPonly characters. That way they can give some depth and reward to the RP players without negatively effecting the PVP-only game.

The problem is that you bought the game expecting Free World of Warcraft while the game was intended to be it's on genre and gameplay style. Yes, there was a lot of hype about the PvE part of the game as well, but it was very clear that the game was marketted towards the PvP crowd. While you may find one or two quotes about the dynamic questing system or the interactive terrain (which would affect PvP as well, if not more), I can find videos and interviews all about this "competitive" online RPG.

Yes, but competitive doesnt have to mean "shallow like a FPS."

Actually I wasnt hoping for world of warcraft because I've never played WoW. never had the desire to do so. What I was hoping for was an innovative online rpg, which is why I still enjoy guildwars, and why I'm waiting to see whats next. What I found and wasnt expecting was a bunch of people who want to disregard the RPG aspect and turn the game into another FPS in 3rd person. I was hoping for a little more depth than D2 in 3D. And Depth is going to be hard to come by without unbalancing PVP something awful. Thats why the characters in this game are so generic. So, seperate the RP characters and the PVP only characters.

None of your post is an argument for this..



How many people want this besides you? I don't think too many.. I am not convinced....

First, a quicky aside to the MTG guy. When I decided to go for the PT, I NEVER had to spend time grinding for cards. Of course it DID take a year or so to aquire the skills to even think about making the attempt, but that's a different animal altogether. And you MUST HAVE ALL OF THE SPELLS, even the crap ones. You never know when the environment is going to shift and that formerly crap spell is going to be a necessary counter. This is even more important in GW, where the environment can shift on a whim and a patch, as we've just seen. The only counter arguement is that in GW it's far more likely that the community will complain about the change and not bother looking for a counter.

Secondly, I've said this once already. No matter what you might think of Theo's ideas, HE HAS THE RIGHT TO VOICE THEM. The "shut up and go away because I don't happen to agree with you" crowd is as un-american as it is possible to get. The RIGHT to speak up, to voice opposition, was the single most important right as far as the founding fathers were concerned. Most of them considered it MORE IMPORTANT than the right to live. "Life, liberty,...". You have the right to disagree with him, and the right to say so. You can do both and remain civil.

As far as I'm aware, Ultima Online was the very first Pay 2 play game. At least I can't remember an earlier one offhand. And yes, that is brand new. The fact that you seem to believe it's a million years ago shows your age. I remember when the last slave died. It was in the seventies, and I was pretty young. I remember thinking wow. You think the Civil War was a million years ago, but right there was a person who was alive during it, and who just died. It would seem you're at about that same place right now.

You don't seem to understand the fundamental concept of debate. You brought it up, it's YOUR responsibility to PROVE your ACCUSATIONS. Without evidence, you're no better than Rush Limbaugh claiming something moronic like "Clinton sold missile secrets to the Chinese". Until he proves it, it's just a bunch of crap. The same applies to your remarks. I was being polite and not calling you a liar, but if you're going to get snotty and order me to "do your homework", I'm now ready to just come out and say what I suspected. It's your homework to do, in fact you should have already done it and had it ready when you decided to make those accusations.

It is not elitist to posit that 2 different games (PvP and PvE ARE clearly different games) would require different skills and mindsets. If anything it's elitist to assume that there exists some overarching "game skill" or "intelect skill" as someone else proposed. It clearly DOES require differing mindsets. That is why the PvP crowd and the RP crowd HAVE such different mindsets, along with nearly incompatible concepts of what qualifies as both "grind" and "fun". How can this really be all that hard to understand? It reminds me of the crap psychologists tried to feed us in the seventies, where they wanted to convince everyone that boys are girls really weren't any different at all. Pretending differences don't exist doesn't make those differences go away.

I did NOT in fact accuse you of saying PvP players were not as good at PvE. I said it was fairly well established fact. I provided an example, and I don't think I'd get much arguement from the vast majority of the RP crowd. My making a statement does not mean I attributed it to you, please read a bit more carefully.

Your having "experience" of MMO's and games like Tribes does not in fact make you good at them. I realize you're going to take that as an insult, but you simply claiming to "have experience" doesn't make my claim less relevant.

You're correct about my lack of MMo experience. I have NEVER payed a subscription fee, and never will. During the WoW beta's I told the Blizzard devs the same.

Jackasses like me? Okay, I'll take that. My Ex probably would agree with you. Just FYI, I don't think I'm too good, and I DID give advice in PvP when I thought it would be received well. The real trouble is that advice is often taken as some sort of insult and generaly results in instant return flames. Given the tiny time window between battles, having a teamate so outraged at the idea that perhaps bringing died 15K armor into PvP is a bad idea that they can't fight until after they finish typing their response is not such good teamwork.

Um, whatever.

Okay, here's where I go way out on a limb and admit that I've never ever heard of "The Frog". I'm 37, which means I was through with college BEFORE the internet existed. There are MANY things about this newfangled world that I just can't bother getting around to, I assume that's just one more of them.

You say they're talking to you? As in now? I AM out of it a bit, I quite playing this game for the most part, but as of a couple of months ago the general consensus was that the devs NEVER talk to players anymore. Are they really talking to you RP types, or is this just more vapor claims like your "Hardcore PvP'ers with Droknar's armor in Ascalon Arena's"? Do you happen to have any evidence, say some quotes that might back up your assertions that they "have said they never intended ..."? And, okay what the heck, I'll bite. Just what the hell is "The Frog" anyway? I just know I'm going to regret asking that one.

Gaile might have gotten "tired of listening to" us, but unless they fired her (we can dream) IT'S HER JOB.

Not quite EVERYTHING in release was in beta's. But ALMOST everything in release HAPPENED IN BETA FIRST. I'm not even sure what the hell you're trying to argue there, except to attempt to back up your claim that they "have said...", and those two things are TOTALY independant. Their INTENT seems to be exactly what you said, no UAS and no separate communities ever. That doesn't mean they've SAID so, and again as of a couple of months ago this was all a big mystery. I'm going to have to ask you once again to divulge your sources. Until you do it all just seems like vapor to me.

I didn't get into beta's intent on seeing this game fail. I didn't stay up rediculously late at night talking to dev's about ideas, skill balances, how badly broken skill charms could become if they made it into release, and many other topics hoping the game would fail. I loved skill charms, but still I lobied for their removal, BECAUSE I saw how easily it could destroy the economy.

While most of the people in beta's were busy trying to discover new ways to get an edge over their opponents, I actualy TRIED to beta test. I tried new things that the devs might not have thought of, I ran up into the big rock 2 or 3 times and got trapped inside, I sent bug reports.

Believe me I wanted this game to make it. But then I was lied to. Not by the box cover, idiot. You keep pointing to vague language in advertisement copy as proof of your point, but you misunderstand what we are talking about. They were talking to us in beta's, we were going over these things. We were clearly potential customers, and a large part of the BWE's was obviously used as a "test drive". EVERYONE was operating on the assumption that the basic mechanics of the game were not going to fundamentaly change 2 weeks before release. Even if they didn't outright lie to us about that, and I'm not sure they didn't, they allowed us to be misled. While that MAY not be illegal, it's certainly dishonorable.

By the way, I also have been checking the number of districts in LA, Ascalon, TOA, Elona's, Droknars, and a few other random areas, whenever I do get on. Outside of the few MAJOR ones, all towns are limited to 4 districts at most. If you then go into those districts, any district other than 1, you find 1 or 2 other people in them, and you are often alone. Certainly, this is not an exact science. The game is instanced, and that means at any given moment only a fraction of the player base is going to be in town. However, it's a good general yardstick. You can't find a group without going into those towns, after all, and if nobody else is in there it clearly means nobody else is looking to form a group. I say again, NOBODY is playing this game. There seem to be more people defending all things Anet on these forums than actualy playing it.


Perfectly level for all those who put in the same amount of time and effort? You can't possibly be serious? That's just gotta be a joke. For one thing it fundamentaly contradicts your own arguement in your OP. For another, it's idiotic. A level playing field for all those who have EXACTLY the same amount of time in? That means the ONLY people who can actualy HAVE a level playing field are those who limit themselves to prebuilts, with no upgrades, runes, outside skills, ect. The ONE AND ONLY time you will have equal time and effort in with ANY other player is when you are both at 0.

I'd like to remind you that I have now stood up for you twice. But whatever, don't fret about it. It's unlikely to happen a third time.

So I'm an elitist pig? I can live with that. From your perspective I probably am. I'm most likely old enough to be your father after all. I was also once a soldier, again most likely before you were born. I served under presidents Reagan and Bush (the less stupid one). That's just one of the reasons I take free speech so seriously, because I stood on a line and defended it. Do I bring that up, along with my age, in order to put you in your place? Probably. Someone really does need to put you in your place, you've gotten way too big for those britches.

Child, I find you snotty, smug and abrasive. You don't like to be challenged, and when you are you tend to go offensive, with comments like "do your homework", or "when you're not being an elitist pig". By elitist what you really mean is that you feel that I think I'm better than you. I most assuredly am better than you. I've been around longer, and been around the world as well. I've gone into harms way, and I've managed to save a few lives. Just as an aside, the term you're looking for is not "elitist", but rather agist.

Those things I've done, things you're too young to have had the opportunity to do, are NOT the reason I'm better than you. Those things, and many other lessons learned, usualy the hard way, are why I can manage to DEBATE a topic without resorting to personal attacks simply because I don't like your views. You are not a snotty child because I happen to be annoyed with you at the moment. I am annoyed with you because you are behaving like a snotty child. Please try to learn the rules of debate. They are not new, after all.

You made a claim, and I challenged you to support it. This was done according to those rules, while your reply was not. I now ask you to learn those rules and find where you took a wrong step.

If hardcore pvpers are twitches what are you? Please stop making yourself look like an ass..

pvpers do not unlock anything faster than pve-ers except perfect weapon upgrades.. how can there be any imbalance when both types of characters are available to anyone who purchased the game?

you really, seriously make no sense.. often.. stfu please

Twitch is a very common term. There's a lot of what he says I disagree with so I'm not trying to back him up on everything but it's ridiculous to hold him responsible for a term that's been around for years.

It just means a game where your physical movement and coordination are more important than planning. It's a sliding scale from full twitch which is purely reaction time to pure planning as in turn based paper games where reaction means nothing.

Twitch was a term started by FPS games. Twitchers, like me call him a care bear, which is actually insulting because it's intended to insult whereas twitching was a term started by twitchers.

PvP players do unlock runes faster as well. Most of the players I know with Superior vigor got it with faction.

If you're a PvP'r you should be jumping on his band wagon. He wants what you want, just from a different direction. He wants you to have UAS. He wants for you to have infinite refund points.

I'm not even sure why any PvP hard core player would be against what he says. I'm not sure why anyone is against anything he said. He didn't insult anyone that I saw and he backed up what he had to say.

It's a pretty simple idea really. Split of a UAS PvP arena, exactly the way it is now except no RP characters in there and UAS of course, and an RP area, exactly the way it is now, except to add a parallel set of arena's that only accepted pre-made characters. He's not even saying that people should be confined to one or the other.

That way people that enjoyed building up a character and competing with what they've built could do so and People that wanted to test builds and all without ever touching a PvE character could do so.

People must just really have a hatred for Elistan the person because so far in this thread his idea's are mostly harmless and unoffensive.

@Sayshina: Again, I always get off topic on these threads, but my parallel with MTG and GW's "grind" was the $$ spent on cards, not *time* spent acquiring them. It's not a perfect analogy, but it's the one I was making. Also, I've been part of the MTG scene for a while, and some cards are just too crappy for the metagame and always will be ^_^ I can list a good number of ones you'll never ever see (ubiquitous yet random 5 cast 4/4 green commons come to mind) in the metagame.

Anyway, Theocrat didnt make this thread to be flamed at or defended. He made it for his ideas to be attacked or defended, so hopefully we can stick to that.

I understand why someone might want to have a clear separation between PVP and PVE, but the fact of the matter is, it's not going to happen. Not because ArenaNet is evil, but because a lot fewer people want the split than you might think. I for one am quite against it. You'll find that a LOT of people are against it. Hardcore PVPers who run into PVEers in battle, tough luck if they suck. A good number of PVP-ony players suck too. You can't just put up a wall and expect a sudden jump in average skill level.

Likewise, good PVPers are free to outright challenge other good PVPers in GVG (which, by the way, cannot at all be separated from PVE; that would just be atrocious).

Meridian 59 predated ultima online, then there were things like mage storm that was fee based as well. The term new is relative, but you really dont want to pull out a dictonary discussion again right? We could talk about those new automobile things too i suppose, or perhaps have a conversation with the earth regarding that new itch created by humans walking all over it. Relative to games found today, pay to play is not new and has many companies copying the original idea that occured from other subscription based services. Continual payment or compensation plan for continual service is not a new idea either.

I can't remember anything at all about mage storm, but I thought Meridian 59 started out free and gravitated to a fee system AFTER it aquired a player base.

Yes, things are relative, as in relative to THE GREATER TOPIC. Cars are brand new in terms of human tool invention, but not at all new in terms of mechanized transportation. The computer games industry has been around for more than 25 years, with subscription based models around for well under 20% of that time. I still contend that is FAR too short a time to start calling anything that DOES NOT run on that system "free". Free is when I pick up a copy of a gaming magazine and the cd includes a full game for free. When I am required to pay nearly $50 to take that box home and open it up, that is fundamentaly counter to the definition of free. No, I'm not interested in getting into semantics, but can't we at least agree on that?

The fact that many companies jumped on the band wagon is neither surprising nor does it change the above dynamic. If on the other hand cable tv were to move away from a subscription base, that WOULD be revolutionary, as they have several decades of history with that fee model.

Already agreed to. However, my original issue was with calling this game free, which I can only believe comes from children who don't have to earn their own money, and who don't yet have bills to cover. The fact that I'm in a union and earn a decent living means that games such as this are not a burden for me, it does not make them free. Ask a homeless guy if he's got $50 bucks he can drop on a computer game.

To the magic guy: You sort of make my point for me. You argue that you will never need this card because ... But you don't know that. There is almost no chance you will ever need pain lands again. they're banned in extended and type 2, and you have much better options in type 1 and 1.5. But I'll bet you EVERY PT regular still has a full set of all pain lands just in case they change something. My point is you never know what will change in the future.

In this game you MUST have all skills unlocked, for ALL professions, or you are at the mercy of future nerfs, buffs, or the whims of the developers. Of course this point is less and less relevant with each day, as fewer and fewer serious players remain. In fact, this is also somewhat true in MTG. The PT is a sorry shadow of what it was when I was playing. There just isn't nearly as much money in it now. Guys used to be able to earn enough money to do crazy stuff like open up a chain of restaurants. When the game died down the serious guys went on and found something else to do.

I can't understand the carebears arguement about "efforts". It just all seems like nonsense to me, and I suspect most of it is rooted in a knowledge that you're not really competitive.

My arguement comes down to this: When was PvP at its best, and what were the rules at that time? The answer is during the last few beta's. WHILE UAS WAS IN EFFECT. As of release, PvP has NEVER come close to being as varied or challenging, and the community has NEVER come close to being as well represented. Why do you think nearly all of the best guilds have gone? Saying it's just because we "want everything handed to us" is as simplistic as Bush saying "they hate us because we're free". If that were true wouldn't they be blowing the crap out of Australia? They hate us because from their perspective, we are horrible, godless bastards who allow all kinds of evil sins to go unpunished. We like porn, and we let our women have jobs and drive cars, and lots of other horrible stuff like that.

They also hate us because we prefer Isreal over any arab, and we don't even bother to hide it. We also call the most evil repressive government on the planet our friends. The same government that happens to be their enemies, although I don't think they have much of a problem with the evil repressive part. I'm pretty sure they're on board with the execution of the woman who dared to drive her husband to the hospital because he was having a heart attack.

You can make simplistic arguements like "they hate us because we're free" all day, but in the end it just makes you look simple. Try, just spend 1 whole minute, TRYING to see the game from the other side. It's important to learn how to at least understand your opponents perspective.

Sayshina: Try to keep to the topic. This is not a political forum and using either party's representatives to "prove" your point is not germaine to the discussion of a game. The post above is not the first one in which you've used a political "slam" to illustrate your point about a....game.

If you want to make political noise, please head off to the DNC or RNC websites and/or any number of websites for radio talk show hosts du jour.

Your debate tactics are decent except for that minor point.

Thanks.

False. Us RPG gamers HATE guild wars, because, as an RPG, it is utter crap, in my incredibly humble opinion. Ever wonder why Guild Wars never received good ratings? (Relative to the hype?) Because the storyline was impressive... in how boring it was. The voice-acting, while better than nothing, was garbage, and doesn't even compare to other games. The east-european accent used for both the dwarves and the undead boss... ... Ignoring the logistics of them both having the same accent for a moment; many, many people actually find that accent extremely discordant. Myself included. Also, neither faces or lips moved, ever, making the cutscene animations extremely awkward. Cutscenes are also bugged. So are some quests. The classes, with perhaps the exception of mesmer, are unimaginative. The character appearances were obviously geared towards one demographic audience: male teens.

But enough of me ranting, I'm getting off-topic: if you like Guild Wars for its RPG elements, you are sadly mistaken. I really hope the summer expansion offers some better plot at the very LEAST. If not, as an avid RPG fan, I probably won't be buying the next expansions. (I might however buy them as a twitch player )

traversc: If you bought this game and are a self-proclaimed "avid RPG player", I wonder what box you were reading? I mainly play RPGs such as NWN, Divinity, Sacred, IWD, BG and such. I don't make much of a point to know what's going on in the PvP/FPS world. BUT...even I knew this wasn't an RPG by any stretch of the imagination and never came to play it for that reason.

I dunno, my first video game experiences were in the coin operation arcade systems, which would be a archaic version of any kind of subscription model currently. Mage storm followed the arcade model more closely than subscription models today. Your point of comparison and reference is off a bit, unless you are trying to point directly at situations like pong or tetris. Tetris being the most blatant freeware to licencing issue that i know of.

This game was ushered in proclaming to be the first "CORPG". Sounded pretty good to me. The fact that it is ANY kind of "RPG" also means that it better have RPG elements. So yes, I expected some sort of RPG.

Its labeled RPG because it is a fantasy setting and you level up a character. It does have RPG elements, they just aren't the focus of the game. Calling this a CORPG was really just another advertising stunt to get more people to buy it.

Sayshina, excellent points.

Aniewiel, the aforementioned was not to an attempt to make "political noise," but to draw relevance from an analagous situation. I don't know if discussing "politics" is against the CoC of this site, but there is nothing weak about his "debate tactics."

Thats a common misconception. A fantasy setting and a leveling-up game model does not an RPG make.

It does if you're trying to sell as many copies to the widest variety of fans possible.

This is a gaming site. Political discussions belong elsewhere on the 'Net.

And I never said that his points were weak. Quite the opposite, in fact. I said that they were decent but for the political reference with regard to a game. Political analogy to a PC game is ... odd.

well rpg means Role Playing Game if i am not mistaken, so i would say any game where you have some sort of character could be considered an rpg, and i have seen many games where you make no type of choices whatsover, just leveling a character, and they are labeled as rpg's

You can't be good at something without spending some time doing it. If a person buys GW and out of the box wants to create a PvP Me/N because his friend/guild mate says they need one for Tombs, whether or not he has all the skills unlocked or not, he is still going to suck and I don't want him in my team.

The PvE part of the game gives you the time to learn how to use some of the skills, understand builds, work in a team and maybe pick up some runes/items. Even with UAS, if you completed the game once all the way through doing every quest as a W/Mo and then moved to full time PvP, the day you play anything other than a W/Mo you will suck.

PvE and PvP need to stay connected. I would prefer a "PvP only" character slot, rather than it taking up one of my 4 slots, but we don't have that so I have to make do with what I do have.

I enjoy PvE and PvP, but while I'll change some of my skills around to suit a team build, I'm not joining a PvP team to be told what build to have and go get it/come back. If I join as an Ele, it's because I want to play in a team as an Ele, not to be told to go and get a Mo. That is hardcore PvP and a definite minority of the people playing this game.

PvP is not broken because of no UAS. Just recruit the primary professions you need for your guild. With help from a guild, getting elites takes no time at all... hell I just do it with henchies!

In any case, if you've read the interview with James Phinney over at IGN that talks about PVPX, he mentions the Unlock All Skills button, and basically makes it clear that it's NOT going to happen. However, he does say that the speed at which people unlock stuff will be greatly increased, and subsequently monitored for improvements/adjustments.

So, let's be optimistic about this. So far I haven't had any real legitimate reason to yell at ANet, other than that price reset which reset to a WAY TOO LOW sum for Ectoplasms and such. But, that was a learning experience for them, and I think that if price resets happen in the future, they won't be as dramatic for some of the items, since it lets people near-monopolize them at little cost for a time.

So you're saying because I can drive a Humvee in Halo, it's a racing game?

It's a Warthog -_- I doubt it has anything to do with AM General

ok let me explain a little more clear for you "not so bright one's" and yes i know that you were speaking to the OP and not i, ok....i bought this game WAAAAY before i even thought about playing WoW, i had heard alot about WoW and it had made me leary of playing it because of the imature players,etc....etc, when i first bought the game i thought nice a game with less grind, no race to get to lvl 60....65...70...100, just level at youre own will.GREAT
ok...3 characters later and 100 hours+ of farming to get some armor that was the exact same as drok's armor for 2 characters, do the same EXACT quests 4 times to get skills to use in PvP in the SAME 4 Arena's with the same "type" of nubs that attack the ele instead of the monk thats healing that ele.Or wait better yet use it to go to the tombs and group with a bunch of people on Vent or Ts who scream at people who don't follow their orders, the orders of a 12 year old boy who sound like a female.oh joy!!.Like i said no thanks ill pay the fee for WoW and play in the BG if i Like PvP and get a 10vs 10 match instead of 4v4 in the same arena that i played 2 minutes ago with the nub team.

as i had said numerous times, no content
NO CONTENT
jeez i wish i could punch this into a-nets brain
NO CONTENT
the game is great, the graphics are great the control is great,but for christ's sake add some....

C-O-N-T-E-N-T
i'll bet anyone 10 gold on WoW that within the next year this game will be just another dust collector on everyones desktop.

I may be 1 person complaining, but im sure theres alto more who didn't even bother to post here and just went to another game, i loved this game, i loved everything about it, and it angers me how they can let such a great game lose playability so fast,the most we've seen for updates is nerfs to farming.no new monsters, bosses,races,spells,skills,classes. yes i understand it's a new game but crap, at a level 20 cap you think at release they'd have something planned for an update knowing how obsessive people are with online games. oh well,probably wasting my breath, or fingers in this case most of you who disagree with this post either..

A) Have'nt been playing long enough to get tired of the content
B)Don't Play enough to get tired of the content


oh ant btw Darkness falls was the first pay to play on AoL i know because i played it, im old school mmorpg and that was back in 93...94 if i remember correct and it was like play per hour lol

Exactly. This game has so much potential for PvE/RPG content. Why is ANet ignoring this?

I have a hard time thinking of many Roleplaying games that lasted me more than 100 hours. I have an even harder time imagining what you wanted out of Guild Wars in the first place.

They aren't. They're releasing two free dungeons on the 7th. They are also releasing expansions. Don't expect Guild Wars to go toe to toe with an MMORPG with free content patches.

I've already outlined exactly what I want. Basically, at the very least, I want non-garbage plot, and non-garbage voice acting. Simply to bring the PvE part of this game to an ACCEPTABLE level.

Why not? ANet has probably already made a ton of money. Server maintanance is also MUCH MUCH less than comparable RPGs. So why the hell not?

I seriously doubt they're going to rerecord the game's dialogue and retroactively change the plot of the game.

From the game site:

Players may choose to support future development of the game and expand their own playing experiences by purchasing new chapters of the Guild Wars story. These chapters will be offered about every six to nine months, and will be competitively priced. Unlike most "expansion packs," the new chapters will be approximately equal in size to the initial chapter of Guild Wars.

So, yeah. If you want ever-expanding content comparable to an MMORPG, you got to pay for it one way or another. Thems the breaks, I guess.

No arguement so far, although you're going someplace I can't agree with.

And right there is where you lose me. I would strongly argue that you can finish the game 7 times with a W/Mo, and you will STILL SUCK when you go into PvP. As I've said elsewhere, PvP and PvE take fundamentaly differing mindsets. They are not compatible skills, and you CAN'T learn one from the other. There is no player you can face off against that will teach you the skills needed to utilize the "invinci-monk" or the racing skills needed to rush to Droknar's. There is no monster, or game area, that will teach you how to face a real live human being.

Sadly, you are more and more correct with each day. There are very few hardcore PvP players remaining, so this is what you get. The idea that you can just show up with whatever build you happen to "want" to play, and have everyone else on your team do the same, is antithetical to the competitive spirit.

Allow me to illustrate. Without mentioning anything remotely political. While I was in college I played in a few pick up football games. Most of the kids playing had never done so for an organized team, in highschool or anywhere else. The results? 1 Quarterback, 2 or 3 offensive linemen, and everyone else a wide receiver. I counted heads and noticed we were playing 11 on 11, which is what you're supposed to have. Did we really NEED 7 - 8 guys all running back and forth down the field, with their hands up shouting to throw it to them? I'm 5'10", and was about 180 back then. And I was playing center because NOBODY else would. I tried to point out that we had enough players to play a pro style offense. Nobody wanted to hear it. EVERYBODY wanted to be one of the FAMOUS guys.

If you are not willing to take one for the team, if you won't play defense because you only want to score kills, if you won't play the sacrificial lamb when a team build requires one, then you have no business being on a team. I would argue that you don't really understand what it means to BE on a team. I was pretty damned young the first time my coach cussed me out. The ball was coming at my head like a missile, which was the first time that had ever happened, and I couldn't help myself. I ducked. The coach made sure that NEVER happened again, not just for me but for any of the other kids either.

PvP is not broken because of no UAS. Just recruit the primary professions you need for your guild.[/QUOTE]

I see people doing this, and I am always amazed. That is a truly horrible idea. Well, I suppose it's fine if you never plan on being competitive. You should NEVER recruit toon, ALWAYS recruit people. Actualy, I've only been in 2 guilds (the ones I made myself just to stop all the invited don't count) and neither did any recruiting of any kind. I suspect that if you do have to recruit that you have already doomed yourself, and would be better off not trying to start a new guild.

But in any case, you MUST have the proper players to have a prayer, and those players MUST have the proper mindset to allow you to be competitive. Yes, you will still need to practice, not just with various builds, but also with each others timing and personalities. Even if you've settled down on a certain team strategy, you still need to practice it together. And NONE of this can happen in PvE. That's why you saw so many daughter guilds on the ladder, because all of the better guilds used them for practice.

Whatever the reason for PvP being broken, to argue that there's nothing wrong with it is to ignore the facts. If it were perfect, or even if there was some reasonable hope of it being decent (not perfect, just decent) in the future, most of those departed hardcore PvP types would not have left. The people came, tried it out, and found it wanting. To argue that there was something wrong with all of them (which is what the standard RP arguement amounts to) and nothing wrong with the game is to make a point that no reasonable man should be able to buy into.

The players left. Anet started faction, and the players left even faster. Anet anounced future increases in faction, and there weren't many players left to hear.

I have NEVER argued that all of this isn't what Anet "intended" to give us. The position that I have maintained is that Anet's stance is flawed, and hopelessly so. No matter what they do to PvP they will NEVER make it truly appealing to the carebears, which is all that is left. No matter what they did to PvE, they would NEVER make it anything that a PvP type would want to get stuck in. We might enjoy it a bit if we could take it or leave it, but I for one work for a living. The very LAST thing I want to do after a hard days work is come online and be forced to put in some "effort". PvP can be work, but it's something that I enjoy. It's the joy of beating an equaly skilled human being. It may be hard, but there is a reward involved. I realize there are many who get that reward from discovering whatever new rune, or finaly capturing some new elite skill. I realize there are people who feel that way, but I can't say I understand them. To me those things are nothing but tools, and I find no more joy in aquiring them than I do in buying a new drill.

With this game Anet set forth 2 theories it wished to test.

1: That Role Players and PvP'ers were really one and the same, that we were all just "gamers" and if "encouraged" to intermingle would eventualy become one big happy family.

2: That it was possible to create a dynamic online environment with updates at regular intervals that did NOT operate on a subscription basis.

Anet has utterly failed at theory 1. The ONLY thing left to discover is whether it has also failed at theory 2. The PvP aspect of this game is dead, and I can see no realistic way of reviving it. If they leave it alone, it will most likely continue to draw casual interest from a few of the RP types, but now that they know what they're in for no real PvP player in their right mind will buy this game.

There is no reason to spend ANY more attention on PvP, as there is simply nothing they can do to fix it. There are a few left who would argue for UAS, or separation, or some other "fix". But none of this can possibly address the ultimate issue, that the players are no longer there to take advantage of it. I have a friend who's pissed at me for getting her into this game, and I payed for her copy.

PvP is a lost cause, but PvE could potentialy be fixed. If they decided to forget about PvP, and focus solely on providing for the carebears, they MIGHT be able to dish up enough easter eggs to get the chapter based revenue play working. This would most likely mean drastic changes like level increases, but with PvP a total failure I really don't see what's so horrible about making what's left of the player base happy.

As an aside to the mod: While you may find it odd to use a reference from politics in a game discussion, there are in reality very few things that CAN be referenced. If a person references another game, he generaly gets counter arguements about either that game, or some third game that supports a different theory. If one wishes to reference outside of computer games, one MUST obviously find something to reference that is universal, or at least nearly so. It does no good to reference some movie if it's not going to play where in the readers country for another year, if ever. This leaves very little with which to work.

However, no matter where one happens to reside, it is highly likely that he has seen and heard the quote which I chose to reference. Most inhabitants of this world have at least some idea of what's going on in that part of the world, and this is the PRIMARY requirement in making an analogy.

I admit I wear my politics on my sleeve, and as it clearly irritates you I will attempt to keep quiet about my regard for our humble and greatly respected president.

As far as I can tell, this is the first retail non-monthly-fee MMORPG ever made.

Even that Xbox is charging you to play their games online, and it's console o.o (started, what, 4 years ago?)

Wow. How is that statement relevant at all. Of course I don't expect that. I'm talking about in the future.
What are you talking about?
I already knew that. I don't want ever-expanding content, however, I want DECENT content that an respectable RPG should have. If the expansions (starting with the summer update) show promise, I'll buy them. I'm not demanding anything for free.

Why are you even arguing with me when you aren't even addressing what I'm saying?

Nothing really to address other than it seems like you want the wrong things out of the wrong game. Also, I'd like to know these "respectable" games you're playing that provide you with more gameplay than Guild Wars without a monthly fee.

Console RPGs fall short, and besides tread-millathons like Diablo 2, where you pretty much just repeat the game three times, I don't think I can recall any co-op PC RPGs off the top of my head that can compare.

Console RPGs fall short? No PC RPGs? What?... what? Even some pre 90's RPGs I've spent more time on than I ever will spend on the current Guild Wars PvE.
Diablo-esque games are also not what I'm looking for.