Grind, and the Skill vs Time Played hypocrisy

Agreed, to get the most out of guild wars one should experience both the cooperative game and the competitive game. But, your response is worded like a response to the idea of removing competition from the RP game. This is not what I am advocating. My vision of seperation is not of seperation between cooperative play and competitive play. My vision of seperation is of seperation between RP characters and PVPonly characters. I dont' see why there cannot be a seperate place for those who do not value the roleplaying game at all, while maintaining the roleplaying game and competitive areas within that game where RP characters can face other RP characters.

So, because I choose not to play the game the way you do, I dont have a right to question the balance between pvponly and RP characters?? If you want to leave a slot open for pvponly its your right to do so, I dont feel that choosing to have 4 RP characters should place me at a disadvantage. If the only reason for seperating pvponly and the RP game were the imbalance between the two types of player I would espouse a different solution. Actually an easier way to balance the two would be to rework refund points for RP characters. But As I said that imbalance is not the only reason to remove the ties between the RP game and the pvponly game.

Again I agree that the best way to enjoy the game is to experience both cooperative play and competitive play, again, I'm not advocating the removal of competitive play from the RP game at all. Again, I see no convincing argument that there should be ties between the RP game and the pvponly game. Other than favor, which should be contested between RP characters, the Pvponly game has no impact on the RP game, so why not remove its dependancy on the RP game?? That way people who dont give a rats ass about cooperative play wont be forced to do so. That way people who enjoy building and keeping a character around can compete on a level playing field with other people who enjoy building and keeping a character.

PvPing RP characters (made obvious by their Black Dyed 15K/Fissure armor or non-PvP Starter weapons) seem to make up a noticable minority in Random Arena. If we give exclusive PvP players absolutely no reason to play with them, then what will the RP characters be left with? I don't even want to imagine what an RP character exclusive tombs or GvG ladder would be like.

Sure, it might be more balanced in a sense, but it seems like it would end up neutering the pool of competition in the RP aspect of the game when they are faced with a choice such as European server vs. American, people who used to make a point to always PvP with their decked out RP character may very well convert to the PvP exclusive environment.

Of course RP characters are a minority in pvp, they are at a disadvantage.

I belive you underestimate the number of people who would keep thier RP characters and enjoy both the cooperative and competitive aspects of the game if RP characters were to face RP characters in competitive areas. After all, you said yourself that experiencing both aspects of the game is the best way to enjoy GW.

That could (and should) be fixed with better access to collector items, increased Rune drops, and removed refund points

At least, those are the only disadvantages I see a PvE player has. Even then, there are plenty of PvP equalvalent Collector itemsand a PvE player can always buy a Rune for their character.

There's really nothing positive I can say about refund points. I'm glad you can switch stats around, but refund points just punish people for wanting to switch their build around. I don't see the need for it and it often gives my Guild Leader problmens in being able to be PvP with her RP character.

Perhaps I do, but I can't imagine that the current state of the game needs fixing (In either end) to the extent that they need to do this. I do not think it would be worth carving up the playerbase.

I dont see it as carving up the playerbase, I prefer to think of it as not insisting that oil and water can be mixed if you smash them together hard enough. I'm not saying the current state of the game is awful, I'm saying it can be better yet if Anet would make corrections to stop penalizing people who like developing a character in competitive play. Also, I think the game could be much improved on the RP side if they didnt "force" those who disdain such things as cooperative play, and character development, to play the RP game at all. As it is, with those people "forced" to do so, those people are constantly undermining the RP game.

There are two types of SKILL in this game, intelligence skill and character skills. One can be greater than the other and one can do well, by the same token one can be better than the other and one do crappy, depends on which one is better than the other. Intelligence skill will most ofen win out over character skills to a degree. And there is no grinding for intelligence skill. I walked into this game the very first day, made a pre-built character and proceeded to kick butt in all the arenas. I made faction, fame and rank without an ounce of pve play to begin with. Then I moved to the pve game and find that with new skills my intelligence skill does increase but not at a drastic rate, there's a balance there for a reason. I could have every skill in the game for my character and still my intelligence skill will determine my ability way over my characters skills. So quit whinning about the grind, there isn't one, some just want everything all at once and it's just not going to happen, they've already said so, so why keep harping on it?

They aren't going to stop Droknars runners and I read that in last weeks fansite friday so I see no reason to continue to harp on why it's wrong or effects the game. It's in the game, it's meant to be, it's intended to be that way. So, I have dropped it for something else that I haven't seen official statements that it's ment to be that way or intended to be that way like soloing monks in UW. hehe

The original poster stereotypes and generalizes to an insulting degree, which I'll just ignore and cut to the proposed "solution". The proposed solution is terrible, especially when there are similar yet obviously better solutions.

Total separation is an inane idea. At the most extreme, make a PvE only Arena or other playing fields, but there's no reason to actually completely separate PvP from PvE players, especially at the top levels. That said, the lower level Arenas already are PvE only.

If you just don't like some of the other players or posters, well, it's a big world. Learn to get along with other people, even those who repeat things you apparently don't like hearing.

There's no error, let alone a fundamental one. The "pro tour" equivalent of a Guild Wars player has... ALL THE SKILLS UNLOCKED (at least the ones worth having, just like there's no point to having the crap MTG cards). That's exactly the parallel I was trying to draw. That in both games, level of competitiveness has to do in part with how easily you can adapt, and that has to do with your resources (cards/skills) which has to do with time spent acquiring them.

I am really confused about the whole "PVP characters are better" issue. Do you guys even know what a PVP-only character is? The only thing that sets him apart from a PVE is that you wouldnt' think twice about deleting him and putting another one in his place. As long as you have a free slot open to create a PVP-only character, you can damn near mirror your PVE one or create an altogether new one. As long as you have enough skills unlocked, you're at NO disadvantage.

If I take my War/Ele into Tombs, and it turns out I need not a War/Ele but a Necro/Ele, then I will not bitch and whine and cry about how inflexible my PVE War/Ele is. I will build a PVP Necro/Ele in a matter of minutes, using the skills I unlocked while playing PVE! (I have changed secondaries with my War enough times that I have a good number of all the skills unlocked.)

So, before complaining about this gulf in versatility, consider what you're actually talking about and what you yourself can do about it -_-

I think that most certainly, choosing to have 4 RP characters should put you at a disadvantage. You can't expect to have the cake and eat it at the same time. You have the ability to leave a slot open, so there! That's the solution, and it's already available; no need to seriously change the game setup. If you don't have enough slots, then that's the real problem.

Quite honestly, removing the ties between RP and PVP is ridiculous. The whole point of Guild Wars is it provides you numerous ways to approach the game, yet it allows you to reach the same level of competitive play via any of those ways. If you don't take advantage of what they give you, for instace by using up all 4 character slots on PVE characters, then you are in absolutely no place to complain about your own, SELF-IMPOSED lack of versatility.

Seperation of RP and PVP only characters would also allow you to reach the same level of competitive play via seperate routes, the difference would only be wether or not you have any interest in the Roleplaying aspect of the game. Your opinion is to be respected, but I still reject the notion that because I dont play the game the way you do, by leaving a slot for PVPonly, that I should be at some kind of disadvantage.

Cutting the Ties between RP and PVPonly would not only allow those who want nothing to do with the RP game (obviously not me) to choose thier own path to high end pvp without having to be "forced" to play the RP game. Meanwhile, the RP game can be made into something above and beyond simply something meant to unlock skills for pvponly play.

I am not sure anyone is really forced to play the RPG game, since you can unlock all skills and upgrades and runes using Faction acquired through PVP. All the mechanics are in place to avoid ever building an RPG character.

As for making the RPG more deep and less of a "grind to unlock PVP resources," well that's not really hindered by the PVP/RPG connection. It's hindered more than anything by ANet's own game design abilities, which may be lacking in creativity ^_^

You can get the faction through PvP... but what do you need to actually unlock items/runes/skills?

Well, thats why I used "" around forced. I dunno that anyone is forced to play the RP game, but from what I gather current state of faction gain makes it "quicker" to get elites at least in the RP game.

Personally, I think the RPG is hindered by the fact that so many see it, and not all the Inaccurately (unfortunately) as nothing more than a means to an end that they would rather skip if possible. Particularly if RP characters are going to be at a continuing and disadvantage to PVP only characters in competitive areas.

I wanted to add my $0.02 to this line of thought, meekly, humbly, and hopefully not in a fashion that will incur some of the amazingly horrible flames that have been thrown about in this thread.

I believe that "skill beats time spent playing" is a falsehood. If you don't have as much "time playing" as your enemy, then your enemy will have a better equipped skill bar than you will have, since he/she has "grinded" longer than you have in order to earn that better equipped skill bar.

I was trying to organize a neat pvp build for my guild, and over 75% of the skills required for my teammates to use had yet to be unlocked by their pve-heavy accounts. So, we were unable to play with this build, because it would take a long time to either quest for those skills, beat the missions required to capture them, or earn the experience required to use skill points to buy them. Or, conversely, it would take an enormous amount of *successful* pvp play to earn the faction necessary to unlock the skills required.

"Skill" never became a factor. We were defeated by "time playing" before we ever entered a battle.

I don't mind this. I think in a game like GW, you should play Single Player and the storyline at least ONCE to get to the more advanced features in the game. It might be old school design, but it works.

It's kind of like beating Doom 3 in order to get Nightmare difficulty.

However, I wish it was possible for spending your skill points on your PvP character to unlock more skills for PvP, plus you can use your faction to unlock other skills.

Agreed.

Even though I would be classified as a twitch gamer (Battlefield 2, Rocket Arena 3, Diablo 2), what you say is a total generalization; in other words, you are full of shit.

There is grind in this game. Most games are full of grind. The problem with Guild Wars is you spend way too much time doing the same crap over a little reward.

Battlefield 2's ranking system can be considered a grind; you need to amass a certain number of points to unlock a few weapons. Yet, you never ever hear anyone complain. You know why? The game is diverse, and what is considered 'grinding' is the norm player: Killing a lot of visible minorities (or Americans) with your guns, tanks, boats, and planes. It takes you to the good stuff right away.

Problem with GW is you don't get the good stuff right away. I've probably played guild wars for well over 100 hours and I still don't even half the stuff unlocked. I want to try new builds, but I can't because of the low faction rate and really bad tomb groups.

Huh?

First of all, no they haven't kept their word. People who farm all day get the best runes (which, if you want to be competitive now after the weekends, is a must) and best weapon unlocks. How is Anet keeping their word when the person with the better runes and more time to unlock skills against someone who has a full time job and can only play an hour a day?

I don't believe in UAS, because that would totally take away an individual's goal to PvP. I like the idea of unlocking stuff, but I want to unlock stuff FASTER. There is hundreds of things to unlock for Allah's sake.

Man you must have your ass served to you on a gold plate by these 'twitch gamers'. It's like you some sort of hidden agenda against them.

Seperating the community is NOT a good thing. With your ideas, you would simply destroy GW. Glad you're not head designer.

- Mark Iradian

If you want to unlock things faster, play in the random pvp arenas. I've made 100x more faction playing in random 4x4's than I ever made trying to get in groups for HOH or my asinine guild that rarely GvG anyways.

Any good guilds out there that actually GvG everyday??? I'm available

Not really. 4 minutes for 20 faction?

Hmmm, the game you compare GW is a FPS.... interesting.




You'll never hear me say that there isnt, just about any game with character development has some "grind". Lets not lose sight of the fact that "grind" is a subjective thing as well. Different people tolerate it in different amounts.

Yet another comparison to an FPS, hate to break it to you but you didnt buy an FPS. Its interesting that you say "the good stuff". I'm not saying that you have to agree, but for some people, getting to the good stuff is part of the good stuff.

100 hours?? Rofl. Listen, if you want to try new things, the tombs really arent the place to do it. Head to the Team or Comp arenas, or get into an active guild and try new things with them. As Great as I think Experimentaion is, its not the best way to get a tombs group. Hell some people would consider trying to find a good tombs PUG its own special kind of grind.





Not really, I've only been to the tombs a limted number of times, and made it to the HOH more times than not with those groups, never won, but hey ya cant win em all. I do just fine in the team and comp arenas, so no, thats not It. Besides that, my "agenda" isnt hidden at all. If I have something "against" twitch gamers, its that most of them seem to want to change the game further into some kind of fantasy-FPS, and to hell with the people who enjoy the other aspect of the game.

LoL, its not my idea to seperate the community, it IS seperated. I can only see it remaining seperated, dispite the noble efforts of Anet. Its not like i've seen one consession that the Twitches would be willing to make to blend the two aspects of the game smoothly. Who cares about balance between RP and PVP characters, or anything outside of pvponly play for that matter, if they can get all the best skills/items/runes faster and continually reroll thier character like they are playing a FPS?

No amount of skill or experience can overcome being without the necessary tools to do one's job. Thus "time played unlocking things" becomes more important in this game, from the getgo, than "time played in the arena honing one's reflexes and learning how the maps work" and such. Grind > Skill, at least to a new player. Once that player has done the necessary "time played unlocking things" then that player can begin, slowly, to develop "time played in the arena honing one's reflexes" and so on.

Until then, it's usually the player experiencing "time played in the arena getting pwned by superior builds."

Which, as an aside, is usually followed by "time spent getting discouraged."

No I didn't. I know what an RPG game is.

I'm comparing it to a FPS because...it's a game. BF2 is a very successful game, and I'm merely stating the reason why. Last time I checked, GW is a game too.

GW did some very different things than the average online RPG game (level 20 limit, 8 skills, instanced world), yet Anet still seems to think that wasting hours to get a single GOOD skill can be classified as entertaining. It's not.

One of the sole reasons to why people wanted this game (and I think many people will agree with me) is the fact that you can mix and match skills to create their own special unique characte. When I make my necromancer or warrior, it is MY necromancer and axe warrior. Problem is, Anet seems to believe that we would rather be spending time soloing UW or Pvping with random groups for endless hours than actually playing their game. If there is more skills unlocked, many people will be willing to experiment with new builds with their characters.

Of course, you are just a narrow-minded jackass who doesn't see through his shit-tinted glasses, thinking that he is above 'teh twitch gamerz!'

this is yet another misconception. time played don't really define anything but if you must put a meaning on it there here is one for you.

test subject ALPHA has been playing the game since release and is just now getting to the pvp aspect of the game. he makes a pvp char or uses one of his pve characters. ALPHA fails miserably several times and that patteren doesn't change for about 2 weeks.

test subject BETA just picked up the game today. he makes his character and plays for a week in pve. wanting something new he makes a pvp char and gives it a shot. he dies horribly in his first battle and decides to do some research. he finds a skills list and researchs a few builds. plays the game to unlock the things he needs while he is enjoying pve. now BETA has what he needs (or what he thinks he needs) for pvp. makes his character and plays a few matchs with mixed results. so he makes some alterations, rinse, and repeat.

ALPHA has been playing for months is horrible at pvp. BETA has been playing for a few weeks and is getting better and better.

that's the point of time spent vs grind. the problem is people don't plan ahead and buy everything they see with their skills points then complain about having to get 20K xp for 1 more skill point. where as BETA even having mixed results is unlocking runes and upgrades faster than the person go through pve.