Grind, and the Skill vs Time Played hypocrisy

No doubt we have alot of positive things going on in GW. Yet, I personally believe that there could be even more.

But, Playing along with idea that the fact that anet hasnt given up on linking RP and PVPonly yet means they never will... Lets work within that mindframe. I'm open to suggestions about what can be done to address the imbalance that exists between RP characters and PVP characters in competitive play. And before anyone tells me that all I have to do is make a pvponly character and tada my problem is solved, I would say that I prefer to have all four of my characters able to interact in the world. I dont see why having that preference should put me at a disadvantage in competitive play. And besides that, telling me that if I'm not going to make a pvp only character then I shouldnt complain about imbalance between RP and pvp only, is telling me that if I dont play the way "you" (whoever you is) do, then I somehow should be at a disadvantage in competitive play. A notion which I reject.

and to make sure that both topics of the thread stay alive dispite certain individual's attempts to kill the thread, I'm still waiting for one person to tell me how its not hypocritical to complain that the game is not Skill > Time played enough, and then turn around take lengths to make sure that the introductory pvp areas are completely unbalanced towards Time > Skill... Its like they want to complain because they have to spend time to unlock all the PVP things to be competiitve with those who have, but then they argue that the time they've spent playing the game entitles them to bring things to the arena that doesnt belong??

Elistan, if you'll look at one of my posts from yesterday you'll see an answer to your question of your perceived hypocrisy. To summarize my previous post, "hardcore" PvP players do not consider the introductory PvP arenas to be TRUE PvP environments. To them, real PvP begins in the Tombs and includes GvG. Why don't the intro arenas qualify? Their random nature negates any planning or strategy. It can't be true PvP because you can't plan, you can't strategize, you can't build specific setups. So therefore it doesn't matter what happens in them. It's not unfair to bring elites to Ascalon in their mind because it is not a true PvP environment.

Does that excuse bringing elites to Ascalon? No... but it does explain why they don't care.

I can agree with that train of thought, Aracos, however, that doesn't mean the arguement that people who desire PvP unlocks to be either faster or instant are the same people who go to the Ascalon or Yak's Bend Arenas in Droknar Forge armor.

It's a fallacious assumption that the people who grief the low level Arenas are the people who complain about the state of PvP Unlocks. It definately isn't enough to call them hypocrites in attempt to try to invalidate their arguement. If anything, people who want faction would see more appeal in the far more effecient methods that the low level arenas, since those in a Guild have the means to do so.

It is as futile an effort to attempt to split up the game as it is to try and reintroduce UAS to the game now. No amount of redundant threads or repeated arguements will bring UAS in the game, likewise no amount of redundant threads or repeated arguments will split the game into exclusive PvE and PvP servers.

Yes, sorry I did see that post and I never got around to addressing it. I'm not so sure that I can condone the logic behind that argument. I mean, if its not true pvp why do they get so jazzed about goin on a X-number of wins run against people who have no chance? The guy in droks armor slinging poison arrows around seemed pretty damn excited about rubbing in his wins for it not being "real" pvp.

Even playing along with that argument for the sake of it, I've gone into the arena and just simply asked the same question I've asked on this board, "can someone tell me what justifies bringing things that dont belong in this arena here?" I've never once been told that they are justified because its not real pvp. No, definitely the top two answers are "I worked hard (spent time) to have the money to do this and I'll play how I want to", and, "youre just mad cause you cant." (although I'm standing there as a 20th lvl Mo/W...) Thus I personally believe that it simply once again comes down to the lowest common denominatior, when they arent the ones with the percieved advantage of having EVERY skill in the game unlocked, and they might have to spend the same time that others who already have done so did to have those skills they complain that its not Skill > Time. Yet when they are the ones who make sure that they've got the advantage purely because of time spent, then its ok. And for no better reason than the arena is random? So? that means its not "real" pvp... its as real as it can be for the new players, but then again, how often does the lowest common denominator ever think about anyone elses enjoyment of the game?

Oh no. I by no means was saying that the griefers in the low-level arenas are the same people who want faster PvP unlocks. In fact I would say they are not the same at all. The insanely low faction rewards in those arenas make that a waste of time. I do think however that the general distain for the level of competition in those arenas contributes to the general lack of concern among PvP players about the conditions there.

Its not so fallacious assumption as you may think, not when I've seen the UAS crowd on several boards complain that the game is not skill > time, and seen some of those same posters use that very same "worked hard" justification in defense of bringing droks/elites to the introductory pvp areas.

Dont make the error of believing that I'm saying that everyone who pvp's is a hypocrite when it comes to this issue, but they are out there, in numbers. Folks who complain about the grind and how its not fair that they should have to spend time to be competitive with the people who spent time, and then turn right around and toss that philosophy right out the window when it comes to where new players are first introduced to pvp.

Whats more, we've covered the fact that Anet hasnt yet given up on this pipe dream of one gaming experience being agreeable to the twitch crowd and the roleplayers. I'm not doing anything to seperate the community, I don't have to do anything to do so. It is seperated. You can dog on me if you like for believing that the roleplaying game would be better with the removal of the twitches, but I've yet to see you reprimand a "hardcore" pvp player for comments about how the roleplaying game "doesnt matter" or any other number of derisive comments about anything other than PVP within the game. If youre going to display your own bias that blatantly, dont lecture me about what I'm supposedly doing to drive a wedge between this community. Please, that would be like trying to drive a wedge between the two sides of the Grand Canyon...

I haven't seen any threads of the sort, personally. Care to post them? Though it sounds like they were ironic more than anything else.

Sure. That is, until the two extreme ends of the community rot off and leave the game for people who actually enjoy Guild Wars as it is, not despite what it isn't.

Would it make you feel better if I scold Weezer or Shinsei the next time they make a thread I don't agree with? Don't mistake me, I'm not in the Hardcore PvP player court. Just because there are things I feel Anet still has much to do to make their game live up to it's ambitions doesn't mean I feel Anet betrayed us how it turned out at release. I don't even really care if UAS happens or not.

But I do care about the increase of demands for this game to be split up.

You are right. It was an error to state that you were trying to further drive a rift in this community when I should have said that this your second "Get the Hell out of my game" crusade you've started up on these boards along with your 105 Smiter thread. Both are polarized issues, neither really need someone opening up a thread with an abrasive rant.

I challenge anyone who says this game is not completely and utterly broken to go to the tombs, get 8 complete random people to join your group, and by random I mean not even looking at their class, and once you have a full team, tell each person a specific build they need to return with, and tell them to meet up there in 5 minutes with a maxed out perfect team build.

Can't do that? Then PvP is broken. Quit harping on this endless bullshit of "just deal with it". The game was "built from the ground up for competition", and if you can't compete with a PUG, the bare minimum of which is having at least a semi-organized team build, you are not playing competitively despite what you hypnotise yourself into thinking from your 30 minute PvP experience in the random arenas with a paladin build!

I'm guessing since it's been so long, that what's happening is in large part intended.

Add grind to the game = intentional strategy to be the content until a new expansion comes out. I mean, we've even heard Izzy echo our exact sentiments on how the skill system is really enjoyed... and if the guy who balances skills doesn't have his say in how skill acquisition works than you know there's an intentional decision here to turn the game into Grind Wars because some goon in a suit thinks that's the way to go.

It royally pisses me off that they duped us and even bait and switched us... not to mention ruined the hard work of the developers that did work on the PVP portion of the game. But I don't see much that can be done. Just move on to other games, continually sticking around even though you are miserable and don't like grind is exactly their plan. It works doesn't it? You gripe, but you keep at the grind. But I can't support that, it's just an immoral gaming service in my book, to bait people along rather than provide the entertainment promised.

I'm not going to make that much effort, because even if I did you'd just strive to marginialize the posts I cite, if you want to see them do your own homework and then make up your mind, not that you havent already.



I'm not sure what youre trying to imply here, but I don't even see myself at either end of the spectrum. I'm not opposed to competitive play, I'd like to see balance between RP and PvPonly characters, and if Anet can do that without seperation, thats fine, I just dont see it going that way. If your implying I dont enjoy the game I'd say thats some mindreading ability you've got there if youre claiming to know what I enjoy. I dont remember saying negative things about the game, just like any other online game, its the lowest common denominator of the playerbase that is the largest negative.



At what point did I say I was let down by anet? You think they CAN live up to thier bold ambitions, I rather doubt it. I admire that ambition, but its a fools errand. I've stated several times that I think Anet is doing a marvelous job. I personally would be fine if UAS never happend. I've never once cried about grind in this game. But if it would make the "hardcore" pvp players who dont give a rats ass about 1/2 of the game I rather enjoy happy and cease thier continual undermining of that aspect of the game I'd be just as happy to see them gone. As far as what you say to Weezer or whoever I really could care less. The point is you want to sit up on your high horse and tell me that I'm driving the community apart, but I've never once see you criticize anyone else for remarks easily as "devisive" as anything I've said. Lets not pretend that your dislike for my posts is about some greater concern for the common good.

Me too, the more vocal that demand gets the sooner anet realizes that attempting to please the very different types of player this game has attracted by watering down both elements is a pipe dream... The better GW gets. I like GW plenty right now, but that doesn't mean it cant get better.

Related to spliting up PvE and PvP... if they do that, then don't we basically have two games instead of one? I mean, it would be like Half-Life and Counter-Strike. Sure one is based off the other, but they are essentially completely different games. Now granted that's a very favorable comparison, but at that point ANet would essentially be dealing with TWO games instead of one. It seems to me that their intention is to provide a single, integrated product.

Awww.. Still sore huh?

Where the fck do you get off calling pvp players twitches? Not everyone that uses a pvp only char regularly is like what you refer to.. Change a couple letters and you get what I think of you.. Separating pve and pvp chars is the stupidest suggestion I have ever heard.. If I want to use my pve char to pvp why would I want to stuck with less skilled pve players?? Unlocking anything with faction is slow as hell.. If you just randomly buy GW and sign on and choose a pvp only, thinking you will be able to succeed with that you are in for a surprise...It isn't just that UAS people are complaining it isn't skill> time it is that they have to spend time in pve to unlock anything at an acceptable rate.. you really seem to not understand that.. try to if you want any respect from the other half of the community..

You just have to accept that with any game that takes EXPERIENCE and RESOURCES to do well in, time will be a factor to some extent. Anyone complaining about that simply doesn't think too hard about the entire situation.

As I've staid before, GW is a lot like MTG, with time spent unlocking skills akin to $ spent buying cards. In both you have to play matches to get better, meaning that time invested will correlate to skill.

In no game is it entirely true that time != skill, especially one as complex and multilayered as Guild Wars. One just has to accept that. Arguing about how some people are misinterpreting the situation is an utter waste of time.

As far as separating PVP-only characters from PVE characters in competition, Theocrat, you really have yet to post a convincing reason. The thing is, what makes a PVP-only character "versatile," as you put it? The fact that he is entirely expendable in terms of taking up a character slot. You would not be so quick to delete a PVE character in favor of making another build. That is ALL that makes one more versatile than the other.

So, why complain about that when all you really have to do to keep the useful "versatility" of a build-on-demand character is KEEP A FREE SLOT OPEN!!

As you said before, a Mo/Me from PVE is on the same playing field as a PVP-only Mo/Me, the difference being that the PVP-only char can be ditched in favor of a different build without the "time lost" factor of deleting a PVE character.

As far as your comments concerning "twitch" players and "roleplaying" players, I think that rather than supporting that gap in approach by modifying the game play experience around them individually, it is appreciable that Guild Wars in its current state appeals to both (and more) crowds. Guild Wars, to be experienced FULLY, requires both roleplaying and twitch skill, and I do not see how privileging either one OR the other (but not both at the same time) is a noble effort.

For the love of christ would you people please STOP CALLING THIS GAME FREE. Pay to play is a brand new idea, up until a few months ago it wasn't even on the radar. Before that time EVERY GAME was sold up front, JUST LIKE THIS GAME. When I picked up Master of Orion (game of the year before many of you were born) I PAYED FOR IT. Just because I didn't have to pay a subscription fee did not for 1 second lead me to believe I got that game for free.

Enjoy the game or quit, you say. If you don't like this country more to russia. That was the slogan when I was growing up. The trouble is that when they said "If you don't like this country" they invariably meant "If you don't like the way republicans want to run things". They, like you, assume that you are in the majority, simply BECAUSE it's you. That is your oppinion, so OF COURSE any normal, right thinking person will share it. ANYONE who does not share that sentiment MUST, BY DEFINITION, be abnormal.

The same goes for your "I and majority..." comment. You assume to be in the majority simply BECAUSE it's you.

To the guys flaming Theo: Get off of it. I don't agree with his generalizations concerning the PvP community, but he's allowed to have his oppinion, and in a free society he's ENTITLED to share them. Theodore Rooseveldt (President, Republican, hard assed cowboy) once said dissent was the MOST patrotic thing an American could do.

To Theo: Your characterization of the PvP community is WAY off. Even in it's current, mostly dead iteration. Most of the good PvP'ers are already gone. But even those that remain just wouldn't bother with arena's. Please understand, I'm not trying to justify the sort of crap you were talking about, taking top end armor and elites into low lvl arena's. I'm saying that it's PvE'ers doing that crap. And that my friend, fits in very well with the "I earned it" crap. That's pretty standard PvE fare, along with "they better not do anything that will deminish my efforts". Until you can show me some real evidence, and not just claim you've seen it but you not going to "bother" to show us, you have no arguement.

Also, before I move on to other people, you are sadly misguided about the reasons behind the PvP / PvE gulf. These two skill sets require fundamentaly different mindsets. Those who are good at one are highly unlikely to be good at the other. Most of you seem to have no problem swallowing the concept that hardcore PvP players just don't do as well in missions. They're easy to spot, they're the guys who clearly are NOT having fun, who would just as soon be someplace else. They're not necessarily the guys getting frustrated and quitting, but I won't lie and pretend that doesn't occur.

What you don't seem to be able to conceive of is that you PvE players are EVERY BIT as nerfed in PvP. Not your toons, YOU. You're just not as good. I'm not sure why this is so hard to accept, you're better at your thing, so why does it seem to hurt your feelings to hear anyone imply that you just MIGHT not be as good at our thing?

We don't enjoy playing against PvE'ers for the same reason Pro Tour Magic players don't enjoy playing against pick up kiddies. It's just not fun to play against unskilled, inexperienced opponents. It's even less fun when those guys are on your side.

By the way, I think if they HAD given us UAS and separate servers, the game MIGHT have stood a chance. I agree that Anet is very unlikely to change their minds at this point, as pride plays a major role. But that stubborn pride has killed their baby, so it all seems a bit silly to me. Perhaps they've all moved on to their next project, and are just giving up on this one. After all, we don't even see Gaile around anymore, and the devs havn't spoken since before release.

To whoever claimed Anet has stated they will never change UAS, or separate PvP and PvE, would you mind showing me where they said that? As well as where they said that UAS was only for testing in beta's? Please understand, I realize these things SEEM obviously to be their intent, but where exactly did they SAY that?

To those claiming increased faction would be gods gift to PvP, you don't seem to be aware that all the faction in the world can't unlock a single Elite skill. You can respond all you want that "elites are not needed, there's a counter to every skill", as many have in the past. The simple fact is that CANNOT compete on anything close to an equal footing.

To those demanding we love their grind, and insist on comparing GW to MMO's (notice I didn't say OTHER MMO's), many of you despise PvP. Back when you had no choice, when you got dumped into Tombs auto. once you finished the game, that was the number one complaint from PvE'ers. They didn't feel it was fair to "force" them to fight other people, which was something many of them felt was against the theme or some such weirdness. The bottom line is they liked the "cooperative" part, and didn't want to ever play against live ammunition.

So they changed the game to make them (you?) happy. Clearly, complaining works. It worked for you, so why exactly should those with a complaint keep silent?

The UAS was only in betas for skill testing actualy has some merrit. Unfortunatly, it also shows up just how short sighted Anet was about the entire PvP environment. Back then, you actualy could complete the game in a weekend. You got all your skills, including elites, from trainers. You COULD cap them, but nobody did. The best way to get an elite you needed was to buy a charm. Oh, by the way, back then you could use a charm to get 24 hours use of a skill that was not part of your Prime or Secondary. You could have off profession skills. Those were the days.

They put in UAS because there weren't enough people in PvP. People JUMPED into PvP as soon as it was implemented. They took it out. Then they put it back in, for the same reasons.

I might also add that in beta's the devs would actualy talk to us. Imagine that? We had numerous conversations with them, and we all assumed that what we knew as the game was largely finished and was down to tweeking. When you see PvP types stating they lied to us, it's not the damned advertisment on the box that they're talking about. Maybe, just maybe the dev's didn't technicaly lie to us. They just answered our questions in a manner that NEVER contradicted our belief in the game. They clearly misled us, for whatever reason. And THAT is why you heard howls of "bait and switch" starting the day of release.

Many of us felt then, and continue to feel the same, that this was done on purpose. They felt they needed us to increase their sales figures, and so they deliberately misled us for that purpose. In defense of Anet, I have often wondered if all this nonsense was really their fault. There is a parent company involved here, and I'm sure NC soft believes they know how to build a game. I'm also sure they have had some "suggestions".

To all PvE'ers: If this game is a RPG, then so is Warcraft III. Seriously. Right now, roughly a month into the new ladder season on Diablo 2, NOBODY has yet reached max level. After a month, NOBODY has the best gear, although many have managed to get their major skills maxed. And that's BARELY a RPG. Daggerfall is a RPG, WoW is a MMO. This game is neither.

They call it a "CORPG". Just because they wrote the code does NOT make them correct. The reason people compare this game to shooters is because there is no better comparison. Most shooters have missions, which are fairly light weight and serve mainly as a tutorial for various skills, gear, and basic interface issues. Sound familiar?

If I were to compare the gameplay to a single alternative, I'd say Thief or Hitman would be closest. GW is the shooter for the thinking man. It's not for twitch gamers (a phrase coined by a magazine publisher, btw), as it's just too slow paced and doesn't reward reflexes. Twitch gamers are just not built to enjoy this game, so I'm not sure what your point is in that particular accusation.

They most likely will never give us UAS or separate the communities. They should have, but hindsight is always 20/20. And as mentioned above, pride is now the limiting factor. It's most likely too late anyway. Even during the "super weekend", nobody was playing. I went online a couple of times to check if it had make any impact, and Tombs never got past 12 districts. I realize many of you think that doesn't matter, that a few hundred players would be plenty for you as long as you have your dozen or so friends. That hardly makes for a commercial success. 50,000 people are playing Diablo 2 at any given moment. A 5 year old game. How many people are on WoW? I wonder why Anet stopped shouting about how GW was keeping up with WoW in sales? They made a huge deal about that in the first week. It's a shame really. This game had huge promise, and now it's gone and screwed things up for everyone else. This whole industry is nothing but copycat. Whenever anyone does dare to step out of line, and fails, the industry figures "don't do whatever they did".

We'll most likely not see any new "free" MMO's. We'll also most likely not see another "fantasy shooter" either. The failure of GW, due mostly to pride and misguided intentions, will ensure nobody else takes the chance.

Oh, one fundamental error in the GW compared to MTG comments. Those who are serious PT players HAVE ALL THE CARDS. If you don't, you are not competitive. I gave up chasing the title during Academy Summer. There was a wedding to save for, and the damned cards had to go. So I quit playing, because trying to play tournies as a casual gamer is futile. The same applies to this game. If you show up at the qualifier and discover that the deck archetypes are totaly different from what you thought, you MUST rework your deck immediatly. If you try to show up for GvG, and discover the metagame has shifted, you have no choice but to spend the next week or two grinding out the necessary skills, all the while hoping your teamates are keeping up.

Without a level playing field, there is no such thing as fair competition. All those trying to compare this game to MMO's miss a fundamental point. Those games make no pretense of fair competition. They think nothing of a max lvl ganking a noobie. This game is supposed to be different, and those PvP types who have a complaint are simply pointing out that is has failed to live up to that promise. All of you saying things like "PvP only's are already more flexible and have an advantage" miss the fundamental arguement they are trying to make. They don't want to have to face you. It's not fun to beat up on a weaker opponent. Most of us would vastly prefer beating up on an equal opponent. Having my ass handed to me by the 8th ranked MTG player on the planet (at the time) was not so great for me, but he looked just plain bored.

After reading most of this... I'm glad I'm not a gamer and that this is really the first game which graces my comp.. because I CAN say I'm enjoying the game, without having to compare it to another game/whine about things not going my way.. somehow, I accept it the way it is.

As for unlocking all skills, basically putting 3 chars through pve... Each char plays differently, and depending on what mood I'm in, I enjoy playing one more than the other, but in general (exept for ascalon area (I have something against low-levels)), it's fun putting different chars through the game.

1) I play this game way too much, and I never, ever, do that. Never even tried. Never even considered trying. Weird, isn't it?
2) Personal remark: Bossy much? If someone randomly invited me to a group then ordered me to get a certain build I didn't normally play just to fit his, I'd tell him to shove his group. Which, I suppose, is exactly what most people have told you to do.
Ah.
Once againt the PvP people continue to confuse their obscure little problems with _PvP_ with _the whole game_.
Because for them the PvP IS the game. For me PvP is nothing. For me the PvE is the game, and PvP just a sort of amusing minigame in the game.

The PvP in tombs may be broken, I neither know nor care. The PvE and the random arenas are just fine, though, thankyouverymuch.

The game isn't by any means broken because you can't open the box and have it all. You can go to tombs and pick up a group to make a build. If you're in a guild you can set people to play a role in a build.

I've finished the game with 3 characters, mo/me ele/nec and war/ranger and I'm not hard core. I'm a bit more than casual but not much. Now it's even easier than it was when I went through the game.

I would like for them to put in UAS, I think the game is good enough to hold players without time sinks but it's past time to start playing and stop complaining.

Random teams should never be as good as organized teams, if they were then strategy would mean nothing.

I don't care or want them to split PvE/PvP. I make a new character in my last slot for every PvP build I want to play. I'd like more slots but I won't use the last one up for PvE. I don't see how giving increased faction makes it unfair unless you bring your PvE character in to the Tombs. If you want to bring a PvE character in then you have to deal with whatever comes your way.

It's a whole lot easier for a PvE player to rebuild a PvP character than for PvP characters to unlock skills in PvE.

Brand new idea? where have you been since what? 1997??

You're assuming I feel the need to prove what I've seen to you. If you really want to see, do your own homework.

Elitist garbage. Obviously you haven't been real active in the mmo market because you think pay to play is a "brand new idea". Yet that doesnt mean that someone who enjoys the PvE aspect of this game does not have the mindset for competitive play. LOL, As if the part that you enjoy requires such a different "mindset" lol. Listen, I've got a diverse gaming background, I've played the MMOS, and enjoyed them, and I've Enjoyed games that are purely PVP like tribes/battlefield/teamfortress/redalert2/warcraftIII ect. ect. ect. Dont try to pass of some bullshit like those who like Guildwars pve arent capable of competitive play. I never remember saying that people who like pvp are no good at the cooperative play in GW. You get on me for what you feel is a generalization that misses the mark, then you make 2 which dont even impact in the same zip code as reality.

More elitist garbage. The fact that I dont choose to live in the pvp aspect of this game means I dont practice nearly as much as you do. That alone is makes it so that I would have to practice up and learn the intricacies of PvP, but thats all it means. It doesn't mean that myself and others who dont favor PvP are somehow handicapped in our abililty to learn those intricacies. I for one would be more interested in learning them if it werent for jackasses like yourself who think youre too good or we're too bad to be taught, youre the guy who will gripe that theres not enough compitition in high end pvp, but you wouldnt even dream of teaching someone anything about it.

*skipping still more elitist garbage...*

Have you been playing? Just like the "pay to play is brand new" comment you seem a little behind the curve on this one... Maybe Gaile got tired of listening to people like you and me, but they just took some steps to balance pvp, then they had what I'm sure is a test run for increased faction rewards for pvp, and they've announced the sumer update offical release date... As far as not hearing from the devs, they've chosen to speak to those of us who enjoy the RP game through The Frog, how could you not know any of that??

Hate to be the one to break it to you, by definition, ANYTHING that happens in beta is purely for testing...

Your bias is clear. You want this game to fail. You pop into tombs and measure the district count and use this as your only method of determining how many people are playing the game in total? That is a really poor and one sided look at how many people are playing.


Wrong, the playing field is perfectly level for all those who put in the same amount of time and effort into the game. It just isnt perfectly level between someone whos played and someone with zero playing hours, and I dont remember anyone saying that it would be...

There are 2 exceptions to the playing field being level, pvponly character's inheirant flexability gives them an advantage. The other exception is when players tip the balance on purpose in the introductory pvp areas.

I wonder what you do when youre not being an elitist pig, hating anet, or generally just being misinformed.

Just because it isn't a problem for you, doesn't mean isn't a problem.

I'm glad you decided give us your opinion on the matter even though you don't know or care about the subject.

PvE is fine if you got the game for Guild Wars and not some glorified clicking and loot/experience collecting simulator.

PvP might not mean much to you, but it certainly means a lot for people who bought the game to play top tier organized PvP which they had already experienced in the beta. (And no, I'm not talking about the weekend where UAS was around)

They might never get what they want and neither will people who want Guild Wars to be Diablo 3 or a free MMORPG. Splitting the game up will not solve the problem for those people. Which is what I meant when I earlier said that the problem will solve itself by people on both extremes eventually dropping out of Guild Wars or learning to appreciate it for what it is, not what it can't be.

Like UAS, Anet has made their opinion clear on the matter. To get the most of Guild Wars, you have to experience and enjoy both parts of the game. They want both sides to interact with each other and have expressed that they intend to work to make both sides interact with each other smoothy, not violently rip it apart.

That would be an interresting feature. Allow people to collect pvp points and then buy stuff for them in pve (at a higher cost o/c).

Agreed. I also played NWN for over two years and GW will probably stay on my pc just as long.

@UAS:
I agree with anets position. I like how there is constantly a challenge. No one-man shows. Also no '40 people to kill on boss' like in WoW or other games.

GW is all about personal experiance. A poor player with the best armor is still a poor player if they have a poor build.
Even if you do not have the skills or the armor, who cares? It reminds me of the FPS games, where some are simply better amiers then others. Live with it, adjust to it or train more.
Look around all GW forums and you will see something you often only see in FPS games: group tactics discussions.

My guild members play pretty much but we got our rumps handed to us during the PVPX. And it was fun! (Even if there were some jerks in the war of worlds thing.)

Compared to other games with PvP, GW makes PvP fun. No lvl 60s camping the noob areas.

I am enjoying myself playing GW. No monthly costs = no hassle.
I have yet to get my char all the way through because I prefer to play with friends and do not want for force the grind.

Agreed, to get the most out of guild wars one should experience both the cooperative game and the competitive game. But, your response is worded like a response to the idea of removing competition from the RP game. This is not what I am advocating. My vision of seperation is not of seperation between cooperative play and competitive play. My vision of seperation is of seperation between RP characters and PVPonly characters. I dont' see why there cannot be a seperate place for those who do not value the roleplaying game at all, while maintaining the roleplaying game and competitive areas within that game where RP characters can face other RP characters.

So, because I choose not to play the game the way you do, I dont have a right to question the balance between pvponly and RP characters?? If you want to leave a slot open for pvponly its your right to do so, I dont feel that choosing to have 4 RP characters should place me at a disadvantage. If the only reason for seperating pvponly and the RP game were the imbalance between the two types of player I would espouse a different solution. Actually an easier way to balance the two would be to rework refund points for RP characters. But As I said that imbalance is not the only reason to remove the ties between the RP game and the pvponly game.

Again I agree that the best way to enjoy the game is to experience both cooperative play and competitive play, again, I'm not advocating the removal of competitive play from the RP game at all. Again, I see no convincing argument that there should be ties between the RP game and the pvponly game. Other than favor, which should be contested between RP characters, the Pvponly game has no impact on the RP game, so why not remove its dependancy on the RP game?? That way people who dont give a rats ass about cooperative play wont be forced to do so. That way people who enjoy building and keeping a character around can compete on a level playing field with other people who enjoy building and keeping a character.

PvPing RP characters (made obvious by their Black Dyed 15K/Fissure armor or non-PvP Starter weapons) seem to make up a noticable minority in Random Arena. If we give exclusive PvP players absolutely no reason to play with them, then what will the RP characters be left with? I don't even want to imagine what an RP character exclusive tombs or GvG ladder would be like.

Sure, it might be more balanced in a sense, but it seems like it would end up neutering the pool of competition in the RP aspect of the game when they are faced with a choice such as European server vs. American, people who used to make a point to always PvP with their decked out RP character may very well convert to the PvP exclusive environment.

Of course RP characters are a minority in pvp, they are at a disadvantage.

I belive you underestimate the number of people who would keep thier RP characters and enjoy both the cooperative and competitive aspects of the game if RP characters were to face RP characters in competitive areas. After all, you said yourself that experiencing both aspects of the game is the best way to enjoy GW.

That could (and should) be fixed with better access to collector items, increased Rune drops, and removed refund points

At least, those are the only disadvantages I see a PvE player has. Even then, there are plenty of PvP equalvalent Collector itemsand a PvE player can always buy a Rune for their character.

There's really nothing positive I can say about refund points. I'm glad you can switch stats around, but refund points just punish people for wanting to switch their build around. I don't see the need for it and it often gives my Guild Leader problmens in being able to be PvP with her RP character.

Perhaps I do, but I can't imagine that the current state of the game needs fixing (In either end) to the extent that they need to do this. I do not think it would be worth carving up the playerbase.

I dont see it as carving up the playerbase, I prefer to think of it as not insisting that oil and water can be mixed if you smash them together hard enough. I'm not saying the current state of the game is awful, I'm saying it can be better yet if Anet would make corrections to stop penalizing people who like developing a character in competitive play. Also, I think the game could be much improved on the RP side if they didnt "force" those who disdain such things as cooperative play, and character development, to play the RP game at all. As it is, with those people "forced" to do so, those people are constantly undermining the RP game.

There are two types of SKILL in this game, intelligence skill and character skills. One can be greater than the other and one can do well, by the same token one can be better than the other and one do crappy, depends on which one is better than the other. Intelligence skill will most ofen win out over character skills to a degree. And there is no grinding for intelligence skill. I walked into this game the very first day, made a pre-built character and proceeded to kick butt in all the arenas. I made faction, fame and rank without an ounce of pve play to begin with. Then I moved to the pve game and find that with new skills my intelligence skill does increase but not at a drastic rate, there's a balance there for a reason. I could have every skill in the game for my character and still my intelligence skill will determine my ability way over my characters skills. So quit whinning about the grind, there isn't one, some just want everything all at once and it's just not going to happen, they've already said so, so why keep harping on it?

They aren't going to stop Droknars runners and I read that in last weeks fansite friday so I see no reason to continue to harp on why it's wrong or effects the game. It's in the game, it's meant to be, it's intended to be that way. So, I have dropped it for something else that I haven't seen official statements that it's ment to be that way or intended to be that way like soloing monks in UW. hehe

The original poster stereotypes and generalizes to an insulting degree, which I'll just ignore and cut to the proposed "solution". The proposed solution is terrible, especially when there are similar yet obviously better solutions.

Total separation is an inane idea. At the most extreme, make a PvE only Arena or other playing fields, but there's no reason to actually completely separate PvP from PvE players, especially at the top levels. That said, the lower level Arenas already are PvE only.

If you just don't like some of the other players or posters, well, it's a big world. Learn to get along with other people, even those who repeat things you apparently don't like hearing.

There's no error, let alone a fundamental one. The "pro tour" equivalent of a Guild Wars player has... ALL THE SKILLS UNLOCKED (at least the ones worth having, just like there's no point to having the crap MTG cards). That's exactly the parallel I was trying to draw. That in both games, level of competitiveness has to do in part with how easily you can adapt, and that has to do with your resources (cards/skills) which has to do with time spent acquiring them.

I am really confused about the whole "PVP characters are better" issue. Do you guys even know what a PVP-only character is? The only thing that sets him apart from a PVE is that you wouldnt' think twice about deleting him and putting another one in his place. As long as you have a free slot open to create a PVP-only character, you can damn near mirror your PVE one or create an altogether new one. As long as you have enough skills unlocked, you're at NO disadvantage.

If I take my War/Ele into Tombs, and it turns out I need not a War/Ele but a Necro/Ele, then I will not bitch and whine and cry about how inflexible my PVE War/Ele is. I will build a PVP Necro/Ele in a matter of minutes, using the skills I unlocked while playing PVE! (I have changed secondaries with my War enough times that I have a good number of all the skills unlocked.)

So, before complaining about this gulf in versatility, consider what you're actually talking about and what you yourself can do about it -_-

I think that most certainly, choosing to have 4 RP characters should put you at a disadvantage. You can't expect to have the cake and eat it at the same time. You have the ability to leave a slot open, so there! That's the solution, and it's already available; no need to seriously change the game setup. If you don't have enough slots, then that's the real problem.

Quite honestly, removing the ties between RP and PVP is ridiculous. The whole point of Guild Wars is it provides you numerous ways to approach the game, yet it allows you to reach the same level of competitive play via any of those ways. If you don't take advantage of what they give you, for instace by using up all 4 character slots on PVE characters, then you are in absolutely no place to complain about your own, SELF-IMPOSED lack of versatility.

Seperation of RP and PVP only characters would also allow you to reach the same level of competitive play via seperate routes, the difference would only be wether or not you have any interest in the Roleplaying aspect of the game. Your opinion is to be respected, but I still reject the notion that because I dont play the game the way you do, by leaving a slot for PVPonly, that I should be at some kind of disadvantage.

Cutting the Ties between RP and PVPonly would not only allow those who want nothing to do with the RP game (obviously not me) to choose thier own path to high end pvp without having to be "forced" to play the RP game. Meanwhile, the RP game can be made into something above and beyond simply something meant to unlock skills for pvponly play.

I am not sure anyone is really forced to play the RPG game, since you can unlock all skills and upgrades and runes using Faction acquired through PVP. All the mechanics are in place to avoid ever building an RPG character.

As for making the RPG more deep and less of a "grind to unlock PVP resources," well that's not really hindered by the PVP/RPG connection. It's hindered more than anything by ANet's own game design abilities, which may be lacking in creativity ^_^

You can get the faction through PvP... but what do you need to actually unlock items/runes/skills?

Well, thats why I used "" around forced. I dunno that anyone is forced to play the RP game, but from what I gather current state of faction gain makes it "quicker" to get elites at least in the RP game.

Personally, I think the RPG is hindered by the fact that so many see it, and not all the Inaccurately (unfortunately) as nothing more than a means to an end that they would rather skip if possible. Particularly if RP characters are going to be at a continuing and disadvantage to PVP only characters in competitive areas.

I wanted to add my $0.02 to this line of thought, meekly, humbly, and hopefully not in a fashion that will incur some of the amazingly horrible flames that have been thrown about in this thread.

I believe that "skill beats time spent playing" is a falsehood. If you don't have as much "time playing" as your enemy, then your enemy will have a better equipped skill bar than you will have, since he/she has "grinded" longer than you have in order to earn that better equipped skill bar.

I was trying to organize a neat pvp build for my guild, and over 75% of the skills required for my teammates to use had yet to be unlocked by their pve-heavy accounts. So, we were unable to play with this build, because it would take a long time to either quest for those skills, beat the missions required to capture them, or earn the experience required to use skill points to buy them. Or, conversely, it would take an enormous amount of *successful* pvp play to earn the faction necessary to unlock the skills required.

"Skill" never became a factor. We were defeated by "time playing" before we ever entered a battle.

I don't mind this. I think in a game like GW, you should play Single Player and the storyline at least ONCE to get to the more advanced features in the game. It might be old school design, but it works.

It's kind of like beating Doom 3 in order to get Nightmare difficulty.

However, I wish it was possible for spending your skill points on your PvP character to unlock more skills for PvP, plus you can use your faction to unlock other skills.

Agreed.

Even though I would be classified as a twitch gamer (Battlefield 2, Rocket Arena 3, Diablo 2), what you say is a total generalization; in other words, you are full of shit.

There is grind in this game. Most games are full of grind. The problem with Guild Wars is you spend way too much time doing the same crap over a little reward.

Battlefield 2's ranking system can be considered a grind; you need to amass a certain number of points to unlock a few weapons. Yet, you never ever hear anyone complain. You know why? The game is diverse, and what is considered 'grinding' is the norm player: Killing a lot of visible minorities (or Americans) with your guns, tanks, boats, and planes. It takes you to the good stuff right away.

Problem with GW is you don't get the good stuff right away. I've probably played guild wars for well over 100 hours and I still don't even half the stuff unlocked. I want to try new builds, but I can't because of the low faction rate and really bad tomb groups.

Huh?

First of all, no they haven't kept their word. People who farm all day get the best runes (which, if you want to be competitive now after the weekends, is a must) and best weapon unlocks. How is Anet keeping their word when the person with the better runes and more time to unlock skills against someone who has a full time job and can only play an hour a day?

I don't believe in UAS, because that would totally take away an individual's goal to PvP. I like the idea of unlocking stuff, but I want to unlock stuff FASTER. There is hundreds of things to unlock for Allah's sake.

Man you must have your ass served to you on a gold plate by these 'twitch gamers'. It's like you some sort of hidden agenda against them.

Seperating the community is NOT a good thing. With your ideas, you would simply destroy GW. Glad you're not head designer.

- Mark Iradian

If you want to unlock things faster, play in the random pvp arenas. I've made 100x more faction playing in random 4x4's than I ever made trying to get in groups for HOH or my asinine guild that rarely GvG anyways.

Any good guilds out there that actually GvG everyday??? I'm available

Not really. 4 minutes for 20 faction?

Hmmm, the game you compare GW is a FPS.... interesting.




You'll never hear me say that there isnt, just about any game with character development has some "grind". Lets not lose sight of the fact that "grind" is a subjective thing as well. Different people tolerate it in different amounts.

Yet another comparison to an FPS, hate to break it to you but you didnt buy an FPS. Its interesting that you say "the good stuff". I'm not saying that you have to agree, but for some people, getting to the good stuff is part of the good stuff.

100 hours?? Rofl. Listen, if you want to try new things, the tombs really arent the place to do it. Head to the Team or Comp arenas, or get into an active guild and try new things with them. As Great as I think Experimentaion is, its not the best way to get a tombs group. Hell some people would consider trying to find a good tombs PUG its own special kind of grind.





Not really, I've only been to the tombs a limted number of times, and made it to the HOH more times than not with those groups, never won, but hey ya cant win em all. I do just fine in the team and comp arenas, so no, thats not It. Besides that, my "agenda" isnt hidden at all. If I have something "against" twitch gamers, its that most of them seem to want to change the game further into some kind of fantasy-FPS, and to hell with the people who enjoy the other aspect of the game.

LoL, its not my idea to seperate the community, it IS seperated. I can only see it remaining seperated, dispite the noble efforts of Anet. Its not like i've seen one consession that the Twitches would be willing to make to blend the two aspects of the game smoothly. Who cares about balance between RP and PVP characters, or anything outside of pvponly play for that matter, if they can get all the best skills/items/runes faster and continually reroll thier character like they are playing a FPS?

No amount of skill or experience can overcome being without the necessary tools to do one's job. Thus "time played unlocking things" becomes more important in this game, from the getgo, than "time played in the arena honing one's reflexes and learning how the maps work" and such. Grind > Skill, at least to a new player. Once that player has done the necessary "time played unlocking things" then that player can begin, slowly, to develop "time played in the arena honing one's reflexes" and so on.

Until then, it's usually the player experiencing "time played in the arena getting pwned by superior builds."

Which, as an aside, is usually followed by "time spent getting discouraged."

No I didn't. I know what an RPG game is.

I'm comparing it to a FPS because...it's a game. BF2 is a very successful game, and I'm merely stating the reason why. Last time I checked, GW is a game too.

GW did some very different things than the average online RPG game (level 20 limit, 8 skills, instanced world), yet Anet still seems to think that wasting hours to get a single GOOD skill can be classified as entertaining. It's not.

One of the sole reasons to why people wanted this game (and I think many people will agree with me) is the fact that you can mix and match skills to create their own special unique characte. When I make my necromancer or warrior, it is MY necromancer and axe warrior. Problem is, Anet seems to believe that we would rather be spending time soloing UW or Pvping with random groups for endless hours than actually playing their game. If there is more skills unlocked, many people will be willing to experiment with new builds with their characters.

Of course, you are just a narrow-minded jackass who doesn't see through his shit-tinted glasses, thinking that he is above 'teh twitch gamerz!'

this is yet another misconception. time played don't really define anything but if you must put a meaning on it there here is one for you.

test subject ALPHA has been playing the game since release and is just now getting to the pvp aspect of the game. he makes a pvp char or uses one of his pve characters. ALPHA fails miserably several times and that patteren doesn't change for about 2 weeks.

test subject BETA just picked up the game today. he makes his character and plays for a week in pve. wanting something new he makes a pvp char and gives it a shot. he dies horribly in his first battle and decides to do some research. he finds a skills list and researchs a few builds. plays the game to unlock the things he needs while he is enjoying pve. now BETA has what he needs (or what he thinks he needs) for pvp. makes his character and plays a few matchs with mixed results. so he makes some alterations, rinse, and repeat.

ALPHA has been playing for months is horrible at pvp. BETA has been playing for a few weeks and is getting better and better.

that's the point of time spent vs grind. the problem is people don't plan ahead and buy everything they see with their skills points then complain about having to get 20K xp for 1 more skill point. where as BETA even having mixed results is unlocking runes and upgrades faster than the person go through pve.