For those who think Ether Renewal is NOT overpowered

Esprit

Esprit

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jun 2005

Dvd Forums [DVDF]

E/

Ether Renewal as prerequisites for its use. First, you need enchantments, and you also need to cast something fast enough in order for it to be of use.

As it seems my post was ignored, or did not warrant comment, I still like to point out that Elementalists can deplete their energy very fast based on spell/energy costs, so for an Elementalist it is very useful spell.

Though it seems that most arguments for the nerf are based on Smiters and enchantments.

If you want to nerf it, nerf it so that the energy return caps out, so that you can't gain massive energy from many enchantments. Have it apply to 3 or 4 enchantments max.

MarkyX

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Jul 2005

Quote:
Originally Posted by FrogDevourer
May be you'd like to add the FotM build with 8 warr/pets?
That won't last long.

I play a warrior, and I'll say this as of right now: As a warrior, you are everyone's bitch.

Blind, disease, weakness. Hell, I can run an anti-tank necro that would pwn everyone with stuff like shadow of fear and price of failure. The problem with 8 warr/pets is they have no defence against conditions or hexes. Antidote can only do so much.

So no, they are not overpowered. Although I think it is kind of stupid that you are avenging a freaking bear.

salja Wachi

Banned

Join Date: Jun 2005

Chicago

the Bleeding Edge

N/Mo

Quote:
Originally Posted by Esprit
Ether Renewal as prerequisites for it's use. First, you need enchantments, and you also need to cast something fast enough in order for it to be use it.

As it seems my post was ignored, or did not warrant comment, I still like to point out that Elementalists can deplete their energy very fast based on spell/energy costs, so for an Elementalist it is very useful spell.

Though it seems that most arguments for the nerf are based on Smiters and enchantments.

If you want to nerf it, nerf it so that the energy return caps out, so that you can't gain massive energy from many enchantments. Have it apply to 3 or 4 enchantments max.

you are quite right my friend. most of the posters here look directly at the spell like it is in a vacuum. they do not look at other reason why it might not need to be nerfed.

same as it was with air ele builds. until people figured out counters to it.

everyone needs to look at the big picture not at one particular aspect of it

Evisicator

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Jun 2005

Quote:
Originally Posted by Warskull
The point of this isn't "Look at this awesome strategy." A lot of people have absolutely no clue just how much of an energy engine ether renewal is. The only energy gain skill he has is ether renewal and that skill alone allows him to cope with -10 energy degen. Ether renewal very rapidly takes a player from near empty to full energy and heals them a great deal in the process (more than they would take from backfire.)

If that isnt the point then why are we talking about ER being broken. Yes it is the point.
And for ER to out heal backfire you need to have 10 enchants "on you". Backfire does something like 130+ dmg from one spell cast and ER only heals like 17 per enchant on you.

Third Quarter

Third Quarter

Academy Page

Join Date: Jun 2005

Ectos And Shards [EnS]

The problem isn't just that Ether Renewal is an excellent energy management skill. (it obviously is)

The problem is that Ether Renewal basically turns an ele into an indestructable, inexhaustible damage supply. If the caster has five enchants up, he will raking in 20 energy AND 100 health every time he casts a 5 energy spell. Such a smite E/Mo will, over the course of those ten seconds, regain about 200 energy and 1000 health.

That's about twice the sum total size of his energy and health pool. And he can do this every 30 seconds. (so 20 seconds downtime)

It's counterable, but it's not balanced.

(by the way, Backfire is pathetic on an E/Mo smiter once Ether Renewal is fired up. A bad monk can easily keep up with 40 damage per second)

Supervixen

Supervixen

Academy Page

Join Date: Apr 2005

Asia

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evisicator
And for ER to out heal backfire you need to have 10 enchants "on you". Backfire does something like 130+ dmg from one spell cast and ER only heals like 17 per enchant on you.
Hmm, I just looked at an old screenie of my E/Mo playing with ER. The heals were +152 +25 +19 per Boon spam for a total of +192 heals. At 14 Energy Storage, with 8 enchants going, Aura of Restoration included. Try again?

salja Wachi

Banned

Join Date: Jun 2005

Chicago

the Bleeding Edge

N/Mo

Quote:
Originally Posted by Third Quarter
The problem isn't just that Ether Renewal is an excellent energy management skill. (it obviously is)

The problem is that Ether Renewal basically turns an ele into an indestructable, inexhaustible damage supply. If the caster has five enchants up, he will raking in 20 energy AND 100 health every time he casts a 5 energy spell. Such a smite E/Mo will, over the course of those ten seconds, regain about 200 energy and 1000 health.

That's about twice the sum total size of his energy and health pool. And he can do this every 30 seconds. (so 20 seconds downtime)

It's counterable, but it's not balanced.

(by the way, Backfire is pathetic on an E/Mo smiter once Ether Renewal is fired up. A bad monk can easily keep up with 40 damage per second)

seed alone give back 26 minimum per second. but that being said that ele is certainly not indestructable and er can be removed

nailz

Banned

Join Date: Aug 2005

Quote:
Originally Posted by Theus
1.So..A skill that can basicly give you an unlimited source of energy..is not overpowered?Hell..why dont we make an elite that makes warrior completely invincible!ITS AN ELITE SO ITS JUSTIFIED!*Thrusts Pelvis*
I could care less if ER is nerfed or not...but I did need to address issue number 1. Essence Bond + Balthazars Aura gives any Monk/* or */Monk a limitless supply of energy as long as they are taking physical damage...wouldn't this be the same as Ether Renewal and warrant a nerf? The character using these skills has a limitless supply of energy under certain circumstances....

-z|o-

Academy Page

Join Date: Feb 2005

Quote:
Originally Posted by Esprit
Ether Renewal as prerequisites for it's use. First, you need enchantments, and you also need to cast something fast enough in order for it to be use it.
It is very easy to use. You dont even need to bring enchantments on yourself and have a prot monk load you before u hit ER button.

Quote:
As it seems my post was ignored, or did not warrant comment, I still like to point out that Elementalists can deplete their energy very fast based on spell/energy costs, so for an Elementalist it is very useful spell.
The fact that all high energy cost ele AoE spells are complete crap to begine with doesnt not justify the power of ER at all.

Quote:
Though it seems that most arguments for the nerf are based on Smiters and enchantments.
Not exactly. You can use it in the same manner with pure elementalist skills to achieve similar effects smiters do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by salja Wachi
what does an ele have??

not even close to the number of ways to defend itself.

that is why i do not think it needs to be nerfed.
Wrong! Eles got enchantments that give +AL & other benifits and also wards.

salja Wachi

Banned

Join Date: Jun 2005

Chicago

the Bleeding Edge

N/Mo

Quote:
Originally Posted by -z|o-
It is very easy to use. You dont even need to bring enchantments on yourself and have a prot monk load you before u hit ER button.



The fact that all high energy cost ele AoE spells are complete crap to begine with doesnt not justify the power of ER at all.



Not exactly. You can use it in the same manner with pure elementalist skills to achieve similar effects smiters do.



Wrong! Eles got enchantments that give +AL & other benifits and also wards.
not even close to being wrong my friend.

wards +AL etc. the ele is by far teh worst class as far as defending themsleves. i hate to say this to someone who is as obviously as full of themselves as you are BUT YOU ARE WRONG.

ER does not need to be nerfed it needs to be countered.

try 3 monks 2 mesmers a necro a hammer and an axe warrior. you will go far.

FrogDevourer

FrogDevourer

on a GW break until C4

Join Date: Feb 2005

In your shadow

Servants of Fortuna

Ok. Let's try to ignore empty statements without backup and to provide constructive arguments. I know it's probably useless, but I'll try one more time.

I'll use a fantasy skill to explain why the above arguments are obviously irrelevant. I'll purposedly use an even more broken skill, but similar to E.R in various aspects, to explain why we can expect Ether Renewal to be fixed soon (hopefully tomorrow).

Death Renewal {Elite Hex}
10 energy / 1s casting time / 20s recharge
For 10s, target foe suffers from health degeneration 1..30 and loses 1..150 hp and 1..15 energy each second. (Attribute: Soul Reaping)

Current arguments used to defend the current incarnation of Ether Renewal:
- It is an elite. It is supposed to be powerful.
- It can be countered (interrupt, anti-hex, anti-elite, well of the profane...).
- You can win in PvP without this skill.
- It buffs up an unpopular/weak profession for PvP.
and we can add:
- It is linked to an unpopular attribute which doesn't have any skill at all.

Would you like to play with or against such a skill ? If your answer is yes, I guess it's not even worth arguing over Ether Renewal. Most decent players should answer no:

- It's 10 to 15 times more powerful than similar elites.
- You don't have to be half clever as a monkey to win with such a skill.
- You just need a couple of skills (glyph, cover hex...) to ensure it works as expected.
- Trying to counter this skill would be much harder than running it yourself.

So we would end up with teams using as many copies of this elite as possible + various counters. At equal playskill, teams running this fantasy elite would win 90% of the time. Does that ring a bell?


Side comment: those who are interested in discussing a revised Ether Renewal could have a look at IxChel's thread:
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...ad.php?t=54069

Numa Pompilius

Numa Pompilius

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: May 2005

At an Insit.. Intis... a house.

Live Forever Or Die Trying [GLHF]

W/Me

Quote:
Originally Posted by salja Wachi
the ele is by far teh worst class as far as defending themsleves
Hehe. Never played a mesmer, have you.

EDIT: Oh, and the best mesmer energy-gaining skill (which is elite) gives a maximum of 18 energy and has 20 seconds cooldown.

salja Wachi

Banned

Join Date: Jun 2005

Chicago

the Bleeding Edge

N/Mo

sure i have hardest profession to play corretcly in the game.. lots of options for health /energy regen, at least more than an ele

Zeru

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: May 2005

Quote:
Originally Posted by salja Wachi
the question you have to ask yourself is does the power of the spell make up for other shortcomings the ele profession has?

in my opinion it does. every other caster class has ways to heal/regen energy an ele is very limited in that regard. hence why they put a strong spell like ER in his skills.

a necro has numerous spells at his disposal for healing a mesmer has healing/ energy degen etc.to defend himself

what does an ele have??

not even close to the number of ways to defend itself.

that is why i do not think it needs to be nerfed.
Because the ele sucks rather than make the ele better let's just give them a totally abusive and ridiculous skill so that people will choose ele for that skill and the rest from their secondary. Yeah, good logic...

If you're looking for defense...ele probably has it the best or at least on par with monks. Wards are so incredibly strong defensively and the only way to force someone out of a ward is with good tactical movement or....Ether Renewal powered attacks (any other way will lose an energy war badly).

salja Wachi

Banned

Join Date: Jun 2005

Chicago

the Bleeding Edge

N/Mo

*sighs again* ER it totaly abusive???

i think that is a gross overstatement.


yes wards are good however the ele will not be able to stay in them under determined atatck. (ie 2 warriors and a mesmer) he will have to run or die as he will not be able to outheal once ER has been removed.

the trick in in the removal of his formidable weapon!!!

FrogDevourer

FrogDevourer

on a GW break until C4

Join Date: Feb 2005

In your shadow

Servants of Fortuna

Quote:
Originally Posted by salja Wachi
the trick in in the removal of his formidable weapon!!!
Read, think and try again:
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...7&postcount=91

Phades

Phades

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jun 2005

Quote:
Originally Posted by -z|o-
The fact that all high energy cost ele AoE spells are complete crap to begine with doesnt not justify the power of ER at all.
So, only monk skills should be out of line? That does not make any kind of sense. Smites will yeild nearly 4 times the sustained damage output a elementalist hope to achieve and have virtually zero downtime. The sad thing is that not only do the smites provide sustained damage, the damage output rivials what elementalist skills can burst with and become smart weapons that work well with warriors and cover for some warrior weaknesses.

Quote:
Originally Posted by -z|o-
Not exactly. You can use it in the same manner with pure elementalist skills to achieve similar effects smiters do.
Its not even close actually. You must consider cast time, cost, and refresh times while comparing the space taken on the skill bar and the lack of additional effects occuring. Even if you use the spammable skills to power a more costly skill, the more costly skills are only available once every 30-60 seconds and cause exhaustion creating an artificial cap on what the energy returned from ER. ER is out of line with smites, because of the way monk skills work and because of how out of line smites are in raw damage potential.

To say that flare spam is out of line, is to say that conjure with wand/stance spam is out of line, is to say that rangers are out of line and so on. I have no idea how the monk line came about, but to let it put out damage/damage removal/damage mitigation like it does in the small time frames it is capable of compared to all others is rather strange. All the other skill lines have longer start ups, cast times, and cost that scale up along with their refresh times. The monk lines are rather flat in terms of progression all things considered and in some instances getting faster, less costly, with more power.


Quote:
Originally Posted by -z|o-
Wrong! Eles got enchantments that give +AL & other benifits and also wards.
Wards are useful and all, but you arent trying to compare armor of frost and earth to things like shielding hands, prot spirit, life bond, mark of protection, reversal of fortune and so on are you? Self only spells go so far, while targeted spells are on a totally different level.

salja Wachi

Banned

Join Date: Jun 2005

Chicago

the Bleeding Edge

N/Mo

Quote:
Originally Posted by FrogDevourer

can you tell us what your malfunction is????

smite teams are beaten every day over and over. it ER was so overpowered that would not be heppening. (as in the case of NR)

i do not know what your goal is here but to keep posting other links says nothing.

bring disenchant and a lot of them and you win. period end of story

as long as you are playing with people who know what they are doing you win!!!

and the more you win the less you will see of smite teams in tombs.

FrogDevourer

FrogDevourer

on a GW break until C4

Join Date: Feb 2005

In your shadow

Servants of Fortuna

Quote:
Originally Posted by salja Wachi
can you tell us what your malfunction is????

i do not know what your goal is here but to keep posting other links says nothing.
My malfunction is that I'm patient with trolls, that I know how to read and how to think. Follow the link, read the post, you'll see why your arguments are wrong.
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/...57&postcount=91

Lemmy

Lemmy

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Aug 2005

Quote:
Originally Posted by salja Wachi
a necro has numerous spells at his disposal for healing a mesmer has healing/ energy degen etc.to defend himself
what does an ele have??
not even close to the number of ways to defend itself.
that is why i do not think it needs to be nerfed.
Mesmer healing, you mean single spell ether feast?

Ether Renewal allows to fill up Health and Energy to full in let's say 3 secs, don't you think something is not right here? Show me how to do that with other classes? and for healing you already have aura...

also your arguments are senseless IMHO, if you want to compare classes. Ele is meant to have best damage, Monk best healing, Necro best health draining, etc. That's why they are called _classes_.

Sainte

Sainte

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Aug 2005

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemmy
Mesmer healing, you mean single spell ether feast?

Ether Renewal allows to fill up Health and Energy to full in let's say 3 secs, don't you think something is not right here? Show me how to do that with other classes? and for healing you already have aura...

also your arguments are senseless IMHO, if you want to compare classes. Ele is meant to have best damage, Monk best healing, Necro best health draining, etc. That's why they are called _classes_.
I loved how I was in Random on my Elem/Mo smiter, and it took a team 1 1/2 minutes to kill me 4v1 because I kept using Ether + Orison + Touch + Reversal + Zealots. Finally they KDed me and killed me >.>

Rin

Academy Page

Join Date: May 2005

I think it is overpowered, and I use it as my primary elite on my ele/Mo.

I usually have like 7 enchants on while it is activated:

Aura of Restoration (60 sec duration)
Bath's Aura (10 sec duration)
Zealot's fire (60 sec duration)
Protective Spirit (16 sec duration)
Healing Breeze (10 Sec duration)
Guardian(5 sec duration)
Ether Renewal (10 sec)

I get 5 energy and 19 health every time I cast a spell after I have all of these on me.
Which is like 30 energy (not counting the cost of the spell that I spam) and 114 health (including Aura Of Restoration) every time i spam reversal of fortune and Guardian.

-z|o-

Academy Page

Join Date: Feb 2005

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phades
So, only monk skills should be out of line? That does not make any kind of sense. Smites will yeild nearly 4 times the sustained damage output a elementalist hope to achieve and have virtually zero downtime. The sad thing is that not only do the smites provide sustained damage, the damage output rivials what elementalist skills can burst with and become smart weapons that work well with warriors and cover for some warrior weaknesses.
I really dont get the point of this paragraph in reference to my statement ..

Quote:
Its not even close actually. You must consider cast time, cost, and refresh times while comparing the space taken on the skill bar and the lack of additional effects occuring.
It is identical in terms of energy engine.

Quote:
ER is out of line with smites, because of the way monk skills work and because of how out of line smites are in raw damage potential.
Not sure if i understand you correctly, but as far as dmg itself goes smite isnt anything special. ER is out of line because it provides unlimited energy pool to fuel the smite, which turns a warrior into an "never-stopping-AoE-missle".

Quote:
To say that flare spam is out of line, is to say that conjure with wand/stance spam is out of line, is to say that rangers are out of line and so on.
It's not the flare .. it's how ER works with any spamable skill for that matter.


Quote:
Wards are useful and all, but you arent trying to compare armor of frost and earth to things like shielding hands, prot spirit, life bond, mark of protection, reversal of fortune and so on are you? Self only spells go so far, while targeted spells are on a totally different level.
So you suggest that every proffession should have heal/prot abilities like monks do?

Edit: As far as wards go they beat protection line by far in most cases. The fact that they are AoE and cant be removed makes them considarably superior to signle target enchantments some of which have recharge time dramaticaly exceeding duration time.

dargon

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: May 2005

The Seraphim Knights [TSK]

R/

Personally, I'd love to run into that ele with my mesmer/necro when he's grouped up with all his friends. One descrate enchantments later, bye bye opposing team My mesmer/necro is level 15 right now with if, memory serves, a 7 in curses. That allows me to do 30ish + 12ish for each enchantment on my target, to my target and all his/her allies that are in close proximity. Given 80 maintained enchanments, that's approximately 1000 shadow dmg. I don't care if the ele can go from 1 to 500 in 1 second, he's dead before he can do it and the rest of the smite team, should they survive due to being out of range, is nolonger smiting as all their enchantments just died with the ele.

Epinephrine

Epinephrine

Master of Beasts

Join Date: Mar 2005

Ottawa, Canada

Servants of Fortuna [SoF]

Quote:
Originally Posted by salja Wachi
smite teams are beaten every day over and over. it ER was so overpowered that would not be heppening. (as in the case of NR)
The reason smite teams lose isn't a failing of ER, but the fact that any team trying to play must now include tons of anti smite components in their build. ER allows smite the power it has, otherwise it would be limited to bursts of damage and such. Yes, smite itself isn't grossly overpowered - I happen to think it's overpowered in a few ways, but that's not necessarily the case; the fact is that ER is too powerful.

Balance should exist between the various classes, regardless of what you feel. While not all classes need to be dealing the exact same damage or type of damage, they should be within a reasonable range of one another. ER trumps every other energy regen out there, and by a lot. Heck, even if elementalists were meant to have the best energy management (and given that they have a huge pool already, and that mesmers have an attribute devoted to energy manipulation, I don't think they should) it still trumps all the other elites for the elementalist: after all, they have Ether Prodigy, Glyph of Energy and Elemental Attunement as energy management elites. And those offer 4 pips with a risk of damage and losing it all at the end, 2.8125 pips and only if you cast 20 energy+ spells, and about 4 pips, if you were to spend 160 energy in that 45 second peeriod. So give or take 3 pips would be about reasonable as an average.

How do these compare with Offering of Blood or Energy Drain? Both of these come in around the 3 pip mark, and each also has disadvantages - you need to sacrifice health for one of them, and you need to pick a target that has energy to steal for the other - granted, not that tough, but it is a condition. Peace and Harmony is laughable, and Blessed Signet can provide a lot of energy, about 6 pips at peak, but only if you are maintaining a lot of enchantments - which costs energy, so you don't actually net anything from it, as to get 6 pips from it you must be supporting 8 pips worth of enchantments. The fact is that the ridiculous energy provided by ER also comes with free health! The skill is absurd.

I've never really agreed with most of your posts, but this one takes the cake for showing why.

Numa Pompilius

Numa Pompilius

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: May 2005

At an Insit.. Intis... a house.

Live Forever Or Die Trying [GLHF]

W/Me

<mesmers>
Quote:
Originally Posted by salja Wachi
lots of options for health /energy regen, at least more than an ele
I wrote a long reply, but deleted it - I don't want to sidetrack this thread. Just for the record, though, I will state that I disagree with what you say here.

Epinephrine

Epinephrine

Master of Beasts

Join Date: Mar 2005

Ottawa, Canada

Servants of Fortuna [SoF]

Quote:
Originally Posted by dargon
Personally, I'd love to run into that ele with my mesmer/necro when he's grouped up with all his friends. One descrate enchantments later, bye bye opposing team My mesmer/necro is level 15 right now with if, memory serves, a 7 in curses. That allows me to do 30ish + 12ish for each enchantment on my target, to my target and all his/her allies that are in close proximity. Given 80 maintained enchanments, that's approximately 1000 shadow dmg. I don't care if the ele can go from 1 to 500 in 1 second, he's dead before he can do it and the rest of the smite team, should they survive due to being out of range, is nolonger smiting as all their enchantments just died with the ele.
Off topic, but: No, it's damage per enchanment on each creature, separately. Each only has about 7 enchantments on them, so it'd be 30+7*12=114 damage. Not exactly thrilling. Even maxed out you are only getting ~22 per enchantment, and that's at 16 curses IIRC. Granted, it'd be a lot of damage, but it goes to show how weak desecrate is - the ultimate situation in which it should be ultra powerful and it still only does about 200 damage to your opponent, with a 16 curses and the opponent wearing 7 enchantments! If they cut its recharge time a bit it'd be more useable, but a 15 second recharge on a spell that will often do only about 60 damage is not overly impressive.

Homo

Homo

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: May 2005

Why hasn't anyone talked about the rate of energy lose due to -10 energy degen. On the first page someone said you lose 10 energy every 3 sec. That doesn't seem right because with -10 degen on health you lose more than 10 hp in 3 sec. I would imagine that at the rate of -10 energy degen is something around 20-25 energy every 3 sec.

Lasareth

Lasareth

Aquarius

Join Date: Jun 2005

Somewhere between Boardwalk and Park Place

One arrow of energy regeneration is about 1/3 energy in one second. It's not the same rate as hp regen.

Mercury Angel

Mercury Angel

Avatar of Gwen

Join Date: Apr 2005

Wandering my own road.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Homo
Why hasn't anyone talked about the rate of energy lose due to -10 energy degen. On the first page someone said you lose 10 energy every 3 sec. That doesn't seem right because with -10 degen on health you lose more than 10 hp in 3 sec. I would imagine that at the rate of -10 energy degen is something around 20-25 energy every 3 sec.
1 pip of energy = 1 energy per 3 seconds
1 pip of health = 2 health per 1 second.

Mr Zun

Academy Page

Join Date: Aug 2005

Twin Dragons

E/N

U know what after reading 5 pages of this crap i still dont see why ppl are still saying that ER is out of balance... what i mean is anything that can be counterd is not out of balance i mean any good Guild team in a gvg battle at the stage this game is knows to have atleast 1 necro with rend and 1 mes with shatter.

So i just dont get it.

IxChel

IxChel

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Apr 2005

http://sof-guild.com/

Servants of Fortuna

Mo/R

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Zun
U know what after reading 5 pages of this crap i still dont see why ppl are still saying that ER is out of balance... what i mean is anything that can be counterd is not out of balance i mean any good Guild team in a gvg battle at the stage this game is knows to have atleast 1 necro with rend and 1 mes with shatter.
There are about 3-4 threads which deal with this subject; you kinda have
to be reading them all to follow the discussion. I realize what you're
getting at -- and many people are making the same point -- unfortunately,
when you "do the numbers" they just don't add up.

The problem with the "just counter ER" argument is that you spend far
more talent, skill slots, energy and time countering ER than you spend
running ER. So, once you've negated the "bonus" of ER, the countering
team is still in a very large deficit; in terms of ability to deal damage.

For example, if you have 2 me/ne for every 3 el/mo (and I'm being
generous with a 1.5 shutdown); you now have two soft targets with
very little damage dealing ability and poor self-healing. Take those
two down via a unbuffed warrior and the el/mo's are back-in-business.

Mercury Angel

Mercury Angel

Avatar of Gwen

Join Date: Apr 2005

Wandering my own road.

http://guildwarsguru.com/forum/showthread.php?t=45301

Eonwe

Jungle Guide

Join Date: May 2005

New Jersey

Idiot Savants

Quote:
Originally Posted by salja Wachi

it seems as if all you have offered is a NERF!!!

not that that surprises me too much though.

when you are not good enough to counter something hell nerf it.
Yay! <*snip!*> But please, keep falling back upon that "Skill A is balanced because Skill B counters it" argument, it just demonstrates your lack of knowledge.

Since it seems that many people did not take the time to actually read the post that I had a link to before they started rambling on, I'll just paste it here.

Skills are broken when they do far more for their cost than comparable skills. They begin to hedge out options and create degenerate environments. The fact that Leech Signet exists does not make every spell fundamentally fair. Sure, you can counter nearly every skill with Leech Signet. So what? Does that mean that the game is going to be fundamentally balanced no matter how ridiculous some of those spells happen to be? Of course not.

Skills need to be balanced in the absence of counters, against comparable spells, against other skills with similar energy costs and cast times and cooldowns. Otherwise you have non-choices and degenerate environments, and that doesn't make for a vibrant, thriving game in the long run.

salja Wachi

Banned

Join Date: Jun 2005

Chicago

the Bleeding Edge

N/Mo

"I've never really agreed with most of your posts, but this one takes the cake for showing why."

as far as agreing with my posts you are of course free fo disagree or agre however much you ike to

but that being said I never blamed a failure of ER for the losses of smite team i give credit to the teams that actually bring counters to it and succeed with them. it is not because of ER that they lose it is because they have built a great defense agains ER. (that tells me that it does not need to be nerfed)

this is not like the case of NR when you could just spam away.

like i said before it is a high powered skill but there are reasons for it being high powered, and now that more and more smite teams are losing in tombs there will be more and more different builds out there to deal with, and i am pretty sure that is wht we all want to see.

Silmor

Silmor

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Mar 2005

Elementalists aren't great at keeping themselves alive, that's for sure (still better than mesmers, who only have the easily interruptable Ether Feast and Illusion of Weakness - which is more of a conditional failsafe than a real heal). Aura of Restoration typically doesn't heal enough to cope with incoming damage, and usually just heals you when you're at full health anyway. They're quite decent when it comes to damage prevention though (especially the earth line), but all in all self-healing is simply not the focus of the class. Each class has specific specializations, and Elementalists are supposed to shine when it comes to Big Damage. There's therefore no justification whatsoever to have an elite providing powerful self-heal options - it goes against the nature of the rest of the class.

But the claim is that skills are balanced. Let's look at two skills from the same attribute line: Ether Renewal and Ether Prodigy.
- Both can be countered through single removal or interrupt; Ether Prodigy can be reapplied faster after removal but at the expense of mounting exhaustion and damage every time it's forced to end through removal.
- With one or two additional enchantments going, Ether Renewal blows Ether Prodigy out of the water when it comes to recovered energy per second.
- Ether Prodigy actually damages you when it finishes, whereas Ether Renewal showers you with heals in its duration

Balanced, right.

Epinephrine

Epinephrine

Master of Beasts

Join Date: Mar 2005

Ottawa, Canada

Servants of Fortuna [SoF]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Zun
U know what after reading 5 pages of this crap i still dont see why ppl are still saying that ER is out of balance... what i mean is anything that can be counterd is not out of balance i mean any good Guild team in a gvg battle at the stage this game is knows to have atleast 1 necro with rend and 1 mes with shatter.

So i just dont get it.
That makes no sense. If I had a spell that was casting cost 5, recharges every 5 seconds and instantly kills the target it would be grossly overpowered. Yet by your logic, since a mesmer could simply babysit me and counter it it isn't overpowered. That is the weakest argument out there.

Yamat

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jun 2005

San Diego, USA

As soon as he runs out of energy, which will happen about 10 seconds after ether renewal ends, he'll be back down to 4 enchants. No biggie.

JYX

JYX

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Mar 2005

I'm staggered by the lack of ability to read and comprehend simple concepts around here.

Mercury Angel

Mercury Angel

Avatar of Gwen

Join Date: Apr 2005

Wandering my own road.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yamat
As soon as he runs out of energy, which will happen about 10 seconds after ether renewal ends, he'll be back down to 4 enchants. No biggie.
The mass enchanter? If that's what you're talking about, you didn't read enough of the thread. -10 energy degeneration over 22 seconds = 66 energy loss. 100 energy - 66 = 33. Enough to recast Ether's Renewal, spam boon, and get you back up yo 100.

Sapping his energy while Ether Renewal is down is the counter, but this build wasn't made to be practical, it was made to make a point.