For those who think Ether Renewal is NOT overpowered - Guild Wars Guru archive powered by Guild Wars Legacy

Phades

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jun 2005

06 Sep 2005 at 20:26 - 121

Quote:

Originally Posted by -z|o-

I really dont get the point of this paragraph in reference to my statement .. It is identical in terms of energy engine.

Skills do not exist in a vaccume.

Quote:

Originally Posted by -z|o-

Not sure if i understand you correctly, but as far as dmg itself goes smite isnt anything special. ER is out of line because it provides unlimited energy pool to fuel the smite, which turns a warrior into an "never-stopping-AoE-missle".

True, but if it were as incompotent as flare is, then there would be no argument as the energy gained and used would be meaningless.

Quote:

Originally Posted by -z|o-

It's not the flare .. it's how ER works with any spamable skill for that matter.

Actually, you have to observe what the achieved effect is, not the engine that drives it. That was the point of my flare->rangers statement. In other instances you do not gain a large positive gain without exploiting enchantment stacking. Even then, many of the larger enegy cost spells are prohibitive with the use of ether renewal due to the long cast times, with one exception the smiting line. Even still, other skill lines have long recharges on top of the other drawbacks, making it meaningless to have excess energy pool, as there is nothing to use it on. Other things need to change before renewal gets singled out. By going for renewal first, you are only covering up the problems and not fixing them. Both renewal skills merely highlighted other problems within the game, which still exist. Nature's renewal unfortunatly also blocked out the effective use of many other non-problematic skills though.

Quote:

Originally Posted by -z|o-

So you suggest that every proffession should have heal/prot abilities like monks do?

Since the monk profession is capable of damage comparable to every other class, then it would make sense. For the sake of diversity, that would not be a good solution though.

Quote:

Originally Posted by -z|o-

Edit: As far as wards go they beat protection line by far in most cases. The fact that they are AoE and cant be removed makes them considarably superior to signle target enchantments some of which have recharge time dramaticaly exceeding duration time.

Immobility is the foundation for the classic soldier's error. Unfortunatly the game objectives are very simplified. Even so, methods to bypass AL essentially make the purpose of wards become without a purpose and only play into the hands of the smiting line, ie holding still and grouping up. Essentially the entire line was designed to avoid the most effective means of reduction, those being mitigation and avoidance. There are only 2 solutions available and even those are single target only spells residing within the monk lines. Yes zealots gets mitigated, but so do every other form of attack that wards effect. However, if zealots effective than other forms prior to mitigation, then there is no arguement really.

Bugeater

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Jun 2005

looking for a guild

06 Sep 2005 at 20:27 - 122

Quote:

Originally Posted by salja Wachi

but that being said I never blamed a failure of ER for the losses of smite team i give credit to the teams that actually bring counters to it and succeed with them. it is not because of ER that they lose it is because they have built a great defense agains ER. (that tells me that it does not need to be nerfed)

Perhaps there's a disagreement about the purpose of "game balance" (and the definition for that matter). I think that most of the mature players want balance to create an environment where you never know what kind of team you're going to face, so you need to bring a team that can handle most everything. Also, when you win, you want it to be because you brought a well-thought out build and played it better than the other team.

It seems that you feel "game balance" should just mean that the same builds aren't always winning. I've heard the argument numerous times that "since this build is losing, it's balanced." While this may be true according you you're view of balance, it leads to an environment where there's only a couple types of builds and less diversity. To me, that means it's unbalanced.

Here's another way to look at it: suppose you want to develop a team build that uses a lot of spells (you could say "don't make a build like that" but that would again reduce diversity). You need an energy management system. What skill(s) do you take. In a balanced invironment, there would be almost as many alternatives as there would be energy management skills, each skill fitting into a different build better. After all there's 38 skills that give/conserve energy. But with the current situation there's really one choice. If you fiddle with the spells a little, you might come up with 1 or 2 more that could work (but probably not as well).

I see that as a huge decrease in diversity, and thereby balance.

Lasareth

Aquarius

Join Date: Jun 2005

Somewhere between Boardwalk and Park Place

06 Sep 2005 at 20:45 - 123

The solution to this is simple. Just increase Renewal recast to 60 seconds, or a duration that guarantees that you can't keep up such a mash of upkeeps at once. The effect is the same, a powerful spell that can heal you once in a while, but people wouldn't be able to spam it before their energy runs out.

As an elementalist, I've rarely had to use Renewal in PTs (glyph of energy is more useful for PvE and PvP imo). Give me a good reason they shouldn't increase recast, and I'll think about it. But all this fighting and trash talking is unfounded.... when the heck do elementalists really need this skill? Unless they're planning to do something like the OP illustrated... /shrug

Arcanis Imperium

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: May 2005

nova

Me/E

06 Sep 2005 at 21:04 - 124

Can I ask something before this continues?

How about someone posts screen shots of how this skill is broken using every other class except Monk?

Show me how its broken with Secondary Necros, Warriors, Rangers, and Mesmers.

If its only broken with Monks, then its not broken. Its just an exploit that people can use.

Wrane Latrobe

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Jul 2005

Wood

E/Me

06 Sep 2005 at 21:11 - 125

for those of you who know ER is broken; read this http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgcom/daily/mr11b

Quite arguring with Timmy, Spike.

For those of you who don't understand what breaks something look at it from a MTG perspective: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgcom/daily/mr63

Arcanis Imperium

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: May 2005

nova

Me/E

06 Sep 2005 at 21:24 - 126

The only way that GW is like Magic is the way that Arena Net described, you have 8 skills that are set up like your deck.

The difference? You are a card, not holding them. Your just one Creature Card in the big deck of this game. Anet is the one playing the Cards. On both sides.

A single skill is only broken when it can be used in multiple ways to accomplish either the same effect, or effects just as powerful with it.

So far I've only seen Emo's use it to cast huge ammounts of enchantments. I've yet to see it used by any other secondary to do the same thing or something just as powerful.

IxChel

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Apr 2005

http://sof-guild.com/

Servants of Fortuna

Mo/R

06 Sep 2005 at 21:52 - 127

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arcanis Imperium

How about someone posts screen shots of
how this skill is broken using every other class except Monk?

A monk secondary is in a particularly sweet spot for abusing this skill
for two reasons:

1. It has numerous spells with very short cast times (.25+.75 after-cast)
allowing ER to be triggered about 9-10 times over its duration.

2. The secondary has many very powerful enchantments which most other
secondaries lack.

These two factors create a clear demonstration that the skill itself if not
framed correctly. Clearly the developers wanted a "energy renewal"
mechanism that was dependent upon the existence of other enchants,
such as aura of restoration or fire/water/air attunement. This desire is
a good thing. The only problem is that the power is off by at least a
factor of two or more (the spammable elementalist spells have a cast
time of 1s+ and a long delay, by comparison, before they can be recast).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arcanis Imperium

If its only broken with Monks, then its not broken. Its just an exploit that people can use.

This, my friend, is very poor logic. Sorry.

Arcanis Imperium

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: May 2005

nova

Me/E

06 Sep 2005 at 21:58 - 128

Explain that to me then. How is it poor logic if your talking about one combination out of 5?

How is it poor logic when you are talking about 20% of the whole in the complete possibility of all Elementalist builds? That leaves 80% you are screwing over because you nerf this spell because it effects just that one build.

Justify it to me. Why is it possible that 1 build's power is neccisary to sacrifice any other Elementalist build that uses that spell?

nailz

Banned

Join Date: Aug 2005

06 Sep 2005 at 22:00 - 129

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arcanis Imperium

Explain that to me then. How is it poor logic if your talking about one combination out of 5?

How is it poor logic when you are talking about 20% of the whole in the complete possibility of all Elementalist builds? That leaves 80% you are screwing over because you nerf this spell because it effects just that one build.

Justify it to me. Why is it possible that 1 build's power is neccisary to sacrifice any other Elementalist build that uses that spell?

you should read the thread that offered a reasonable fix to the skill. Other builds that aren't relying on abusing Ether Renewal would still work with that fix...and quite well.

Eonwe

Jungle Guide

Join Date: May 2005

New Jersey

Idiot Savants

06 Sep 2005 at 22:15 - 130

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arcanis Imperium

<snip! deleted material.>

Please give me a list of these *many* good builds that use ether renewal as well. Oh wait, why would you use a different build when you can dish out roughly 60 dps in an aoe radius with Ether Renewal, Zealot's Fire, and Balth's. Skills are broken when they do far more than other skills of comparable costs, and begin to hedge out other options, creating degenerate environments. If you haven't already, read this post here.

Bugeater

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Jun 2005

looking for a guild

06 Sep 2005 at 22:23 - 131

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arcanis Imperium

If its only broken with Monks, then its not broken. Its just an exploit that people can use.

I'm not trying to be argumentative, but here's why I think that's poor logic:

The reason a skill is considered broken is that it can be exploited in such a was as to be way more powerful than other builds. That's part of what makes it broken. What we don't want to happen is have everyone always make the same build that exploits the same skill the same way. Sure they could make a different build, but it would be clearly at a disadvantage. So what we're left with is a bunch of teams using the same exploit build and a bunch of teams with builds designed to specifically stop that one exploit build. That makes the game very 1-dimensional and unfun.

So if a skill is overpowered for only one class combination, it's just as broken if not more so than if it were overpowered regardless of the classes used.

Arcanis Imperium

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: May 2005

nova

Me/E

06 Sep 2005 at 22:26 - 132

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eonwe

Please give me a list of these *many* good builds that use ether renewal as well. Oh wait, why would you use a different build when you can dish out roughly 60 dps in an aoe radius with Ether Renewal, Zealot's Fire, and Balth's. Skills are broken when they do far more than other skills of comparable costs, and begin to hedge out other options, creating degenerate environments. If you haven't already, read this post here. If you don't understand it, try reading it again until you get a clue.

Funny, I thought this game was about doing whatever you wanted, not what other people found to be more popular. And btw, I've read this whole damn thread through which is the only reason I posted.

Stop acting like a jackass and answer my questions. Where are the builds in the other classes that use this spell in a broken way?

You yourself just asked me to show you them, so if you dont know any then they dont exist. And if 4 secondary classes dont abuse this skill, then why should the 5th one screw over the rest?

You tell me to read, why dont you and figure out what I'm saying before you act like an ass and keep posting the same thing over and over "Duh... I'm right, because I say I am, and you obviously cant be right, because you arent agreeing with me"

As for that post that keeps getting pointed out over and over again.

THAT IS ONE BUILD TYPE OUT OF COUNTLESS OTHERS AND THERE IS NO REASON WHY THE ONE BUILD TYPE SHOULD CAUSE COUNTLESS OTHERS TO BE NERFED!
When you come up with a better argument than one build type, then you have a reason to complain. Until then, I'm still waiting on those other builds that exploit it.

And I said other builds. In fact, dont post to me again until you have those other builds that exploit it. Because anything you post will just be going around the issue like you have the last two posts.

SHOW
ME
THAT
IT
IS
OVERPOWERED
IN
OTHER
BUILDS
BESIDES
A
ELEMENTALIST/MONK

That clear enough for you?

Eonwe

Jungle Guide

Join Date: May 2005

New Jersey

Idiot Savants

06 Sep 2005 at 22:30 - 133

I don't think you understand that your question has no relevance to whether or not Ether Renewal is broken.

Arcanis Imperium

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: May 2005

nova

Me/E

06 Sep 2005 at 22:37 - 134

I dont think you understand what "Broken" really means.

What is broken here is the Emo build. Not the skill itself. The skill is only considered broken when it is paired with that build, which is what I've been trying to say.

And when you nerf that skill, it makes the Emo build no longer an "Invinci Build" but it makes other builds no longer have a certafiable use to even try to use Ether Renewal (Depending on in what way they nerf it).

The reason that Protective Bond's nerfing worked is because we were talking about it being used to help someone who is using their Monk Primary skills more than their Warrior Secondary to Solo the Underworld. If this was Ether Renewal being used by an Elementalist who used it for Elemental skills to make him/herself a God, then yeah its a problem. But what you are talking about is the skill being used to make a Monk secondary be extremely powerful.

You have to find a way to make the Emo less powerful, but keep the skill intact. Otherwise all you are doing is this:
Rating in Power:
E/Mo: +5
E/Me: +2
E/W: +2
E/R: +2
E/N: +2

and turning it into this:
E/Mo: +2
E/Me: -1
E/W: -1
E/R: -1
E/N: =1

See what I mean? You make the Emo a fair fight build, and screw over the other builds that may have used this skill.

Until one of the other 4 builds comes up with a way to use this thing to create high power problems, then its only the Emo build that is the problem, not the skill.

smurfhunter

Banned

Join Date: Aug 2005

my w/mo uses mending, orison, and healing breeze. you cant kill him.

Sand Scorpions [SS]

W/Mo

06 Sep 2005 at 22:38 - 135

how about we all hold our breath for like another 12 hours and then close this thread

ill put the odds of them nerfing ether renewal tomorrow at something like 98:0

and fyi if something is overpowered in every class, well, everythings 'overpowered' and then nothing is. its inherent in the defnition of 'overpowered' that in stands above everything else, so really... it doesnt quite matter if its 'only' for an emo

Odd Sock

Elite Guru

Join Date: Feb 2005

Ottawa, the super awesome capital of Canada

iQ

06 Sep 2005 at 22:40 - 136

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arcanis Imperium

SHOW
ME
THAT
IT
IS
OVERPOWERED
IN
OTHER
BUILDS
BESIDES
A
ELEMENTALIST/MONK

That clear enough for you?

I got one but I don't want people to start using it until iQ is finished smashing faces with it and it gets nerfed again.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arcanis Imperium

Rating in Power:
E/Mo: +5
E/Me: +2
E/W: +2
E/R: +2
E/N: +2

and turning it into this:
E/Mo: +2
E/Me: -1
E/W: -1
E/R: -1
E/N: =1

Numbers have the ability to make one look smart. Unfortunately they can have the reverse effect which is demonstrated here. On what scale is this ? Can you demonstrate this mathematically without room for interpretation ?

You're getting pretty angry, take a break from this thread or something before you have a heart attack

ElderAtronach

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jun 2005

Mo/Me

06 Sep 2005 at 22:43 - 137

Quote:

SHOW
ME
THAT
IT
IS
OVERPOWERED
IN
OTHER
BUILDS
BESIDES
A
ELEMENTALIST/MONK

E/N

Ether Renewal {E}
Aura of Restoration
Death Nova
Malaise
Parasitic Bond
3 other skills of your choice

GG, cover their entire team in hexes and gain virtually unlimited mana and health. Try doing that with a necro primary. I dare you.

Mhydrian

Academy Page

Join Date: Jul 2005

R/Me

06 Sep 2005 at 22:45 - 138

Its not faked, enchantment builds remain ridiculous. They nerfed NR of course, and left enchantment builds untouched. Just one of many reasons PVP in this game is silly. Especially in 4 on 4 matchups.

Arcanis Imperium

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: May 2005

nova

Me/E

06 Sep 2005 at 22:57 - 139

Quote:

Originally Posted by ElderAtronach

E/N

Ether Renewal {E}
Aura of Restoration
Death Nova
Malaise
Parasitic Bond
3 other skills of your choice

GG, cover their entire team in hexes and gain virtually unlimited mana and health. Try doing that with a necro primary. I dare you.

Wow, maybe I read this wrong:
Ether Renewal {Elite} - Enchantment Spell
For 10 seconds, each time you cast a spell, you gain 1-4 energy and 5-17 health for each enchantment on you.

So you have two Enchantments on you (3 if you put Death Nova on yourself), as opposed to the 80 on the Emo build...and that's overpowered? And let me see what else? And are using two very crappy, easily broken Hexes... All you've done is healed yourself and gotten back your energy...and then you have to wait 30 seconds for you Enchantment to come back, by which time someone will have probably owned you unless your Monk is healing you.

And dont give that thing about "Well, you obviously have never played against a good Necro who could use this" Apparently you dont know shit about me. I'll tell you what this build will do, if you use 3 other great spells. It'll let you cast high end Necro spells with big costs and huge recharge times all at once. You'll be able to take out a single target in almost no time. And then when Ether Renewal is over, you will have to wait for every thing to recharge and your build, which is based on the one skill, will be down to probably your two hexes.

Also, unless your casting huge cost skills, Aura isnt going to be doing much except sitting there pretty for you with ER. Especially since the 3 spells you listed are all 5 in cost.

Dont get me wrong at all, I'm not bashing your build. What I'm saying is this build is in no way broken. Its powerful, but not overly.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Odd Sock

Numbers have the ability to make one look smart. Unfortunately they can have the reverse effect which is demonstrated here. On what scale is this ? Can you demonstrate this mathematically without room for interpretation ?

Anyone ever teach you about Relativity using numbers as representatives and not as actual figures?

Yamat

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jun 2005

San Diego, USA

06 Sep 2005 at 23:14 - 140

Every build has a counter.

Nuff said.

dargon

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: May 2005

The Seraphim Knights [TSK]

R/

06 Sep 2005 at 23:27 - 141

Quote:

Originally Posted by Epinephrine

Off topic, but: No, it's damage per enchanment on each creature, separately. Each only has about 7 enchantments on them, so it'd be 30+7*12=114 damage. Not exactly thrilling. Even maxed out you are only getting ~22 per enchantment, and that's at 16 curses IIRC. Granted, it'd be a lot of damage, but it goes to show how weak desecrate is - the ultimate situation in which it should be ultra powerful and it still only does about 200 damage to your opponent, with a 16 curses and the opponent wearing 7 enchantments! If they cut its recharge time a bit it'd be more useable, but a 15 second recharge on a spell that will often do only about 60 damage is not overly impressive.

Damn you, spoil my dream of watching an entire team explode with a single spell

ElderAtronach

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jun 2005

Mo/Me

06 Sep 2005 at 23:27 - 142

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arcanis Imperium

Wow, maybe I read this wrong:
Ether Renewal {Elite} - Enchantment Spell
For 10 seconds, each time you cast a spell, you gain 1-4 energy and 5-17 health for each enchantment on you.

So you have two Enchantments on you (3 if you put Death Nova on yourself), as opposed to the 80 on the Emo build...and that's overpowered? And let me see what else? And are using two very crappy, easily broken Hexes... All you've done is healed yourself and gotten back your energy...and then you have to wait 30 seconds for you Enchantment to come back, by which time someone will have probably owned you unless your Monk is healing you.

Maybe if you knew what the hell ether renewal was and was not capable of, you'd stop posting this nonsense. Those 80 enchants in that screenie were maintained, but it didn't matter because energy degen caps at -10. Look at the effects bar a bit closer: he's only got 6 enchants maintained *on himself*, and ether renewal would make 7 once it recharged and he could cast it again.

Guess what, all he's doing to get his energy back is to spam boon. If you know of any other skill that lets you get ~120 energy back in 10 seconds while having -10 energy degen at the same time, please share it with us.

Quote:

And dont give that thing about "Well, you obviously have never played against a good Necro who could use this" Apparently you dont know shit about me. I'll tell you what this build will do, if you use 3 other great spells. It'll let you cast high end Necro spells with big costs and huge recharge times all at once. You'll be able to take out a single target in almost no time. And then when Ether Renewal is over, you will have to wait for every thing to recharge and your build, which is based on the one skill, will be down to probably your two hexes.

Apparently you don't know shit about the build I posted. And where are you getting this "able to take out a single target in almost no time" from? There are no such necromancer spells, otherwise people would be using necros more often. What kills me is your last sentence in that paragraph, waiting for everything to recharge? When ether renewal is over, your mana and health bars will be full.

Quote:

Also, unless your casting huge cost skills, Aura isnt going to be doing much except sitting there pretty for you with ER. Especially since the 3 spells you listed are all 5 in cost.

Dont get me wrong at all, I'm not bashing your build. What I'm saying is this build is in no way broken. Its powerful, but not overly.

Tell you what, I'll let you in on a little secret: I threw that "build" together in like 10 seconds off the top of my head, basing it around ether renewal and spells with low recharge times. Whats broken about it is its energy engine: ether renewal. Hey, let's flesh out those 3 other skills: faintheartedness, suffering, and chilblains.

Now lets give you about 20 seconds to cast all those curses on the entire team. After that, your mana should be running a bit low right? Fire up ether renewal, spam malaise/parasitic while tabbing targets, and LO! You have full health and mana, and gaining ~90 health in 20 second intervals from parasitic bond! The other team all has ~6 health degen and 2 mana degen!

Broken? Nah, can't be.

Odd Sock

Elite Guru

Join Date: Feb 2005

Ottawa, the super awesome capital of Canada

iQ

06 Sep 2005 at 23:35 - 143

EDIT: Elder replied faster than I did, meh

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arcanis Imperium

And let me see what else? And are using two very crappy, easily broken Hexes...

I think the purpose of this build was to serve as cover enchants. He also just laced the other team with Energy debilitating skills which is in no way something to be neglected. Malaise is a good skill, even if you can focus swap to take it off, it's still a very good and controlling skill.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arcanis Imperium

All you've done is healed yourself and gotten back your energy...and then you have to wait 30 seconds for you Enchantment to come back, by which time someone will have probably owned you unless your Monk is healing you.

That's pretty much what a regular elmo does as well. He spams his junk and then has a downtime, where are you getting with this ? Cause by that logic and Elmo would be bad too

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arcanis Imperium

Apparently you dont know shit about me.

And we don't want to either. Stop taking this thread so personally.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arcanis Imperium

I'll tell you what this build will do, if you use 3 other great spells. It'll let you cast high end Necro spells with big costs and huge recharge times all at once.

From the skill description that's not what he wanted to do. All what he seems to have wanted was to spam hexes on the other team. Maybe for cover-ups maybe for energy debilitation. Either way it's still very dangerous and he probably just made that build in like 20 seconds to show you that Ether Renewal is broken, or at least grossly overpowered.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arcanis Imperium

Also, unless your casting huge cost skills, Aura isnt going to be doing much except sitting there pretty for you with ER. Especially since the 3 spells you listed are all 5 in cost.

You have no idea what you are talking about. It shows in that quote right there.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arcanis Imperium

Anyone ever teach you about Relativity using numbers as representatives and not as actual figures?

This is my 3rd year in mechanical engineering, yea I think I know more than enough about numbers and figures. What you posted is the equivalent of saying my car can produce 1000. 1000 what ? Watts ? lb/ft ? Next time you give give out numbers in a sequence like you did at least giev to where the scale goes. Furthermore you just blurted out those numbers without giving any proof. Tell me, and show me how you got those numbers and maybe I'll change my opinion about you (that you don't know what you're talking about)

Forboding Angel

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: May 2005

06 Sep 2005 at 23:42 - 144

I maintain 15 enchants on my party using blessed and OOB.

Edit: Sorry, horrbily out of context. Was replying to someone on the first page.

FrogDevourer

on a GW break until C4

Join Date: Feb 2005

In your shadow

Servants of Fortuna

06 Sep 2005 at 23:45 - 145

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yamat

Every build has a counter.
Nuff said.

We have a winner. I'm sure you can read the entire thread and find why your post is wrong, and may be propose something better.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arcanis Imperium

SHOW
ME ... ELEMENTALIST/MONK

Enchantment x 2 + 1 or 2 Spammable skill + ER = infinite energy for 12s and +15pips in average
the weakest mono elementalist example :
fire attunement + aura of restoration + flare + ER = energy pool refilled every 30s
You don't need a secondary profession. If you're unable to use such a retarded energy engine decently with the skill slots left, you really need help.

This thread is becoming ridiculous. Stupid posts, trolls, lazy posters who don't bother reading the objective and relevant arguments, and the best they can come up with crumbles with a small breeze, but they are still firmly convinced. Quoting Chuck's signature: "Don't argue with idiots. They bring you to their level and beat you with experience."

Thanks to the OP for this very cool screenshot. We knew it could be done, but you must have been very patient to throw & maintain all this stuff.

ElderAtronach

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jun 2005

Mo/Me

06 Sep 2005 at 23:46 - 146

Quote:

Originally Posted by Forboding Angel

I maintain 15 enchants on my party using blessed and OOB.

That's nice. What happens when you don't run maintained enchants? You use OoB. Compare that to Ether Renewal. GG.

Forboding Angel

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: May 2005

07 Sep 2005 at 00:14 - 147

Yes, sorry about that elder. Like my edit said It was horribly out of context and directed towards someone on the first page.

See if either renewal worksed a bit like blessed signet then I think it would be more balanced.

For example: For each enchantment on you you gain 1-3 energy and 1-7 health. But it should not be an enchantment itself. THats just broken. Hell I can spam reversal and draw as well as others and have shitloads of energy.

After doing some research I believe what is happening is actually an exploit and an oversight by anet. Good god, I'mma go make an air build with this. I never used ether when it got popular because I thought it was cheap. I had no idea. Holy shit. All you need is:

aura of restoration
earth attune
air attune
water attune fire attune
Ether renewal
stoning/flare/etc
immolate
fireball.

I realize that those spells are low damage but listen to this for a sec.

While er is up you spam stoning or flare or whatever like a mofo. BAM energy recharged. THe damage dealt would be 46 per stone. After er ends start spamming fireball, immolate and stoning/flare.

THat is a LOT of damage. I honestly don't think that the monks could keep up with the damage dealt if you had 2 people doing this.

THink about 4 eles doing something like this. OW, DADDY IT BURNS!

Syno Nym

Academy Page

Join Date: Jul 2005

Les Grosbilloux

R/W

07 Sep 2005 at 00:15 - 148

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yamat

Every build has a counter.
Nuff said.

It seems to me many people here need to get back to school and learn to read again...

I'll make a brief summary since they don't want to make the effort...

Let's imagine, tomorrow with the release of Sorrow Furnace, Anet gives us a totally new spell for necromancer. Let's call it... Finger of death (yeah I played ADD too much...). It allows necro to kill everyone in one hit, takes 2 seconds to cast and is elite.

This skill has a lot of counters, such as interruption, Signet of humility, etc...
Do you really think this skill would be balanced ?

Theus

Jungle Guide

Join Date: May 2005

W/Mo

07 Sep 2005 at 00:29 - 149

Yeah.I'm getting sick of this "Its Elite so Its Justified" and "Theres a Counter use it" BS.

Forboding Angel

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: May 2005

07 Sep 2005 at 00:38 - 150

nym lol, thats a good point.

Me personally I would love a skill like that.

Honestly I wouldn't be unhappy to see elites fly out the window and never be seen again.

coleslawdressin

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: May 2005

Victory on Demand [VoD]

Me/Mo

07 Sep 2005 at 01:04 - 151

Quote:

Originally Posted by Forboding Angel

Honestly I wouldn't be unhappy to see elites fly out the window and never be seen again.

I agree.. A more aggressive approach to balancing could make pvp a lot more fun.. I hope they are considering adding another similarity to Magic:TG and remove certain skills for tournament play.. it could work out.. hopefully when we see a few more expansions and a lot of skills added we will see more diversity.. I want to say.. "omg I got beat by this weird smiting-necro minion build", not "Sigh, another FotM team"..

Due to my aversion to whining, I can't be assed to read this whole thread for the first time, but I want to make a suggestion.. sorry if it has already been made.. Ether renewal is Energy storage right? Divine boon only works on the monk primary attribute, DF, and only on monk spells.. it should be the same for ER.. only give regen for casting ele spells.. fair and fixes the balance issue

smurfhunter

Banned

Join Date: Aug 2005

my w/mo uses mending, orison, and healing breeze. you cant kill him.

Sand Scorpions [SS]

W/Mo

07 Sep 2005 at 01:32 - 152

Quote:

Originally Posted by coleslawdressin

Due to my aversion to whining, I can't be assed to read this whole thread for the first time, but I want to make a suggestion.. sorry if it has already been made.. Ether renewal is Energy storage right? Divine boon only works on the monk primary attribute, DF, and only on monk spells.. it should be the same for ER.. only give regen for casting ele spells.. fair and fixes the balance issue

whoa grade A idea! that really clicked with me, and its like the first reasonable nerf suggestion ive heard. only prob is, elemental attunement does the same thing... (or almost)

there should be a monkal attunement

Homo

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: May 2005

07 Sep 2005 at 03:46 - 153

Any spell that can be countered should not be considered overpowered period...............

Mercury Angel

Avatar of Gwen

Join Date: Apr 2005

Wandering my own road.

07 Sep 2005 at 03:52 - 154

Quote:

Originally Posted by Homo

Any spell that can be countered should not be considered overpowered period...............

I really hope you don't mean that.

Win Game
Elite spell
Energy cost: 25
Casting Time: 60 seconds

You win the battle. This spell is easily interrupted.
Counter: Run really really fast and hit them. This spell causes exhaustion.

Broken Combo: Glyph of Sacrafice

Anti-Win Game
Elite Spell
Energy Cost: 5
Casting Time: 1/4th second

Any attempts by the opposing team to cast Win Game fail for the rest of the battle.

You either have to run the spell, run the counter, or run both.

The spell effects are balanced with each other, but the effect on the game and the environment are too great to exist. Tell me Win Game isn't overpowered just because Anti-Win Game exists... I need a good laugh.

Edit: Sorry for having to get rediculous, but these posts are getting out of hand.

Edit:

While we're at it, let's look at balancing limitations. Is a spell balanced just because it has heavy penalties?

Lucky Win
Elite Spell
Cost: 25
Casting Time: 60 seconds
Recharge: 120 seconds

If today is Saturday at the 7th hour (AM or PM) EDT, roll 2 dice. If the sum of the dice are 7, you win the game. If any of the conditions are off, this spell has no effect. (This spell fails unless you have 7 Divine Favour).

With only 2 hours useable per week at a percentage chance, this skill won't see too much useage... But when the conditions are right, it can grant you an instant-win with no effort. Glyph of Sacrafice, 8 monks, and spam it. Run for your life if it fails, and cast it again until it works or you die.

How about difficult or impractical counters?

Mesmer-B-Gone Spray
Elite Skill
Cost: 15
Casting Time: 1 second
Recharge: 20 seconds

Instantly slay a primary or secondary mesmer.

Mesmer-B-Gone Away
Spell
Cost: 5
Casting Time: 1/4th seconds
Recharge: 10 seconds

Interrupt target's action if it is Mesmer-B-Gone Spray.

Good luck and have fun interrupting that every 20 seconds.

---

Ether Renewal does not reach those extremes. However, these examples are just to demonstrate that simply because a counter exists does not mean the skill isn't broken.

OverlordTyrael

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jun 2005

#amplitudestudios

Xen of Onslaught [XoO]

W/Mo

07 Sep 2005 at 04:16 - 155

Mercury Angel, I have to say that that had to be one of the most amusing, fun to read, beautifully written post that I have ever seen on these forums. I love those spells. Thumbs Up!

Arcanis Imperium

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: May 2005

nova

Me/E

07 Sep 2005 at 04:33 - 156

I think a good Elite along those lines, but more practical would be a Necro Death Elite.

Sacrificial Touch: You and Target touched foe die. All allies in the area are lose 25% of their max health

The last part would lead to less moaning about it just being a spell where Necros run up to Monks and kill them. Causing your team mates to lose a fourth of their health would piss a few off.

Asplode

Desert Nomad

Join Date: May 2005

Chicago, IL

Rebel Rising [rawr]

07 Sep 2005 at 04:58 - 157

Quote:

Originally Posted by Forboding Angel

Yes, sorry about that elder. Like my edit said It was horribly out of context and directed towards someone on the first page.

See if either renewal worksed a bit like blessed signet then I think it would be more balanced.

For example: For each enchantment on you you gain 1-3 energy and 1-7 health. But it should not be an enchantment itself. THats just broken. Hell I can spam reversal and draw as well as others and have shitloads of energy.

After doing some research I believe what is happening is actually an exploit and an oversight by anet. Good god, I'mma go make an air build with this. I never used ether when it got popular because I thought it was cheap. I had no idea. Holy shit. All you need is:

aura of restoration
earth attune
air attune
water attune fire attune
Ether renewal
stoning/flare/etc
immolate
fireball.

I realize that those spells are low damage but listen to this for a sec.

While er is up you spam stoning or flare or whatever like a mofo. BAM energy recharged. THe damage dealt would be 46 per stone. After er ends start spamming fireball, immolate and stoning/flare.

THat is a LOT of damage. I honestly don't think that the monks could keep up with the damage dealt if you had 2 people doing this.

THink about 4 eles doing something like this. OW, DADDY IT BURNS!

I ran something similar to this in comp arenas, just to test out ER, it went as follows:

EtherRenewal
Auraofrestoration
Earthattunement
armorofearth
kineticarmor
wardagainstmelee
wardagainstelements
stonedaggers

Well I don't need to explain the dynamics, let's just say that I had to leave every non-mesmer game because they couldn't kill me, ever.

-edit-

Oh, and while we're making up stupid skills, how about a new nature spirit!

Nature's Renewal. 5energy, 5s cast, 60s recast
Remove all enchantments and hexes in the area. Enchantments and hexes henceforth take twice as long to cast.

....oh wait.

ok, take 2: Drought. 5e, 5s cast, 60s recast
Stop all healing from all sources in the area.

Counter: Kill the fkn spirit, n oob kllol.

Sainte

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Aug 2005

07 Sep 2005 at 05:12 - 158

Just to put it in perspective, I played a El/WARRIOR using ER, using all 7 elem skills and 1 res sig, and I managed to stay at full HP/MP all the time, just like a El/Mo can. Its simple, using 1 spell I could gain 0-90 energy back in a few seconds.

Ether Renewal
Aura of Restoration
Stone Daggers
Stoning
Ward of Melee
Ward of Elements
Armor of Earth
Res Sig

Its overpowered, even with Elem Skills only. I could stay alive and do some damage/help my team while doing it.

Also, all you saying its balanced because there is a counter, and it works for a E/Mo only, which I just proved wrong. How about this..

PROTECTIVE BOND! Oh look, people whined about that being overpowered, because it made monks gods. How come Prot Bond is magiccally IMMUNE to the arguement that a single enchant strip or a life stealing skill can over the monk, and the fact that it is usable only in PvE, in like 2% of the total game world. Did the skill get the nerf bat? Of course, and look, it wasnt even useful in any PvP/PvE besides random arena and UW/FoW and some other areas.

Now look at Ether Renewal. It has uses in ANY place in the game, including HoH and GvG, the areas where PB was utterly useless. It can be much more deadly, because if you strip it, the E/Mo wont die in 1 hit from anything, he just waits a little bit and casts it again. It is being abused to hell.

I swear, some people are just dumb. Saying ER can be countered DOES NOT make it a balanced skill. No skill that can give full energy in 3 seconds and enable a MAGE to tank 4 warriors is balanced. Yes, ive tried it, yes I survived without problems. Yes, they couldnt strip me, but I didnt die when it was off, because full energy means more spamming and healing. What are the actual counters to ER? Interupt and the odd strip, because unless you are sure the E/Mo has it on, you will waste a strip.

Its overpowered and unbalanced. End of arguement.

Numa Pompilius

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: May 2005

At an Insit.. Intis... a house.

Live Forever Or Die Trying [GLHF]

W/Me

07 Sep 2005 at 08:25 - 159

Quote:

Originally Posted by ElderAtronach

And where are you getting this "able to take out a single target in almost no time" from? There are no such necromancer spells

I suspect he's run into N/Me frag mesmers. They're common as muck in random arenas.

Odd Sock

Elite Guru

Join Date: Feb 2005

Ottawa, the super awesome capital of Canada

iQ

07 Sep 2005 at 14:54 - 160

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arcanis Imperium

I think a good Elite along those lines, but more practical would be a Necro Death Elite.

Sacrificial Touch: You and Target touched foe die. All allies in the area are lose 25% of their max health

The last part would lead to less moaning about it just being a spell where Necros run up to Monks and kill them. Causing your team mates to lose a fourth of their health would piss a few off.

Who the hell cares ? You make 7 of those guys, put up an Edge of Extincition then go explode tyourself and the other team. Leave a fast cast res mesmer in the background to res them and kill the last guy that may have run off. That's a really balanced skill there buddy. Oh and forgot, you have Death Nova on every single guy so they kill off the entire team even faster. Thank god you're not balancing this game.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Syno Nym

Let's imagine, tomorrow with the release of Sorrow Furnace, Anet gives us a totally new spell for necromancer. Let's call it... Finger of death (yeah I played ADD too much...). It allows necro to kill everyone in one hit, takes 2 seconds to cast and is elite.

This skill has a lot of counters, such as interruption, Signet of humility, etc...
Do you really think this skill would be balanced ?

To make it even worse: put it on a fast cast mesmer and bring mantra of concentration. GG. 4 of those guys and 4 monks 4tw.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Forboding Angel

THat is a LOT of damage. I honestly don't think that the monks could keep up with the damage dealt if you had 2 people doing this.

Yes please spam flares. It just takes one Orison to negate the damage 4 of those attacks would do. Seriously if my monks would let me die to such crappy damage/build I'd shoot myself

Back on topic, Ether Renewal is just ouright dumb and shadows every other energy management skill out there. You basically go from 15-20 energy to infinte energy for those few odd seconds and can start it again as soon as it's recharged.