Great another place my Mesmer is not wanted!

kawaii_bat

kawaii_bat

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Sep 2005

Canada, Gatineau

None

Mo/R

It's decided...

The next fad will be mesmers after the batter/minion master necro fad fades away.

Order of fads:
Warrior/Mo,
Monk/W, Smiting
Ranger/mo, Trapper
Elementalist/mo, Smiting
necromancer/mo, Battery/minion master

next is the mesmer for sure! (I'll do a premptive strike and make one myself!)

lol

Arcanis the Omnipotent

Arcanis the Omnipotent

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Sep 2005

Nova Alliance

Me/

Nah, the Frag Mesmers already had their week in the light.

I almost got into it too, just decided against it.

Saerden

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: May 2005

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcanis the Omnipotent
More like 10% is junk and you dont know shit?

What did you really leave? The anti-warrior skills, backfire, a few other shut downs and the Inspiration Defensive skills. That's what makes a good mesmer to you? Wow, no wonder you never take any along.

If this is the case, in your mind a Mesmer's only job is to protect you while you do the killing. And that's so much bullshit I dont even know where to begin.

So I wont even bother. After that long winded and completely clueless speech, anyone who actually knows a damn thing will just think you as big of a moron as I do. I actually felt that i did not include enough mesmer skills in the list. If anyone feels that even one of them is worth taking without A VERY SPECIAL REASON (thats the "combo" clause i put in there), please tell so. I also would like to hear your special reasons for taking any of the skills in combos.
Note that the benchmark is just another e/XXX with 1. shower 2. firestorm 3. fireball 4. anything else.
If the resulting character is NOT better then the e/XXX, dont bother. Of course, there are lots of other very good chars that could take the place, but nukers are common and dont require too many player skills.

I dont see a reason to take a mesmer without shatter [email protected] into SF right now. Over good options, that is. No, Lord SuXXor r/w with Sword is not a good option.

***
Something entirely different. Did anyone of those godly mesmers actually test wether the skills work as they are advertised? I heared that fire djinns ignore diversion, and that hex duration may be halved on (some) bosses... any REAL info on this?

*edit: Note that this post was made BEFOR the potential skill changes later today. I will remove mind wrack from the list when it suddenly instakills someone who reaches 0 energy. if it works on bosses. maybe.

edit2: i am ONLY talking about PvE. Thoug most of the stuff is worthless in PvP as well (or even moreso)

Arcanis the Omnipotent

Arcanis the Omnipotent

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Sep 2005

Nova Alliance

Me/

Ok, combine Conjure Phantasm, Phantom Pain and Crippling Anguish on one foe, then cast any number of shutdowns on the monk in the area.

Lets see how long the guy lasts at -10 Health and people nailing him for damage. Including the Mesmer who just used a high level energy Surge or Burn for 80 Damage.

Huh, didnt think of that one, did ya?

Seriously the fact that you dont know how to use any of those skills effectively shows you have never played a mesmer, or were one of those ones you complained about who dont know how.

Red Aideen

Red Aideen

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: May 2005

It is simple, there are people that know how to play and people that don't. Anyone can be a Mesmer some people will just be better at it than others. One bad one ruines it for us all. Now I have a Me/Ele and she rocks but no one thinks so. Yes, she has less energy than a Ele but, thanks to fast casting she can get off two nukes before an Ele can get off one, with energy to spare. So why am I useless because, there are RUDE people in this game. Everyone has a mind set and no one will let it go. I took all the unwanted into SF (Rangers,Mesmers,Necros) I was there forever. We had a great time. Everyone should play at least one class once if just for awhile to see how it feels. Maybe some of them would step down off there high horses and get a grip. It's a game and we are suposed to be haveing fun!

Phades

Phades

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jun 2005

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcanis the Omnipotent
Ok, combine Conjure Phantasm, Phantom Pain and Crippling Anguish on one foe, then cast any number of shutdowns on the monk in the area.

Lets see how long the guy lasts at -10 Health and people nailing him for damage. Including the Mesmer who just used a high level energy Surge or Burn for 80 Damage.

Huh, didnt think of that one, did ya?

Seriously the fact that you dont know how to use any of those skills effectively shows you have never played a mesmer, or were one of those ones you complained about who dont know how. No caster lasts long under a malestorm or meteor shower with other people beating on him and can affect more than one at a time. There isnt a need to waste 35+e on a character that has an average of 46 total on one enemy. 20 damage per second is not impressive either, in addition to them only lasting half as long on any boss monster. Sure you can waste another slot on mantra of persistance, in order to put the duration back to nearly normal against those boss targets, but then you have also devoted half of your build to only give 10 degen, a snare, and eventually deepwound that could be applied easily fom an axe warrior.

Single layer enchantment removal tends to be useful in pve though, which gives some play to the inspired, drain, and shatter enchantments. Dont need to interupt the mark of protection, when you can just make it explode, yours, or extra energy. The hex removal can be useful, but the damage effect is not that large leaving it to be used similar to a smiter on a warrior. It doesnt refresh fast enough to really help the group as a whole. It basically leaves you with your classic stall manuvers such as soothing images, diversion, and others in adidtion to the retribution for taking action skills. They arent rangers, so they really cant interupt many opponents in a long chain of events, only one every so often, which is mimiced in other ways.

Arcanis the Omnipotent

Arcanis the Omnipotent

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Sep 2005

Nova Alliance

Me/

That was just an example, and no where near what my build is like.

But its not an impossible build, nor is it a stupid one. However, I would say Conjure usually comes in handy more when you have a ranger (poison,bleeding) or a warrior (bleeding) and add to the degeneration. At most you should probably only have 2 DoT's in your bar, and which depends on the rest of your build.

Anti Hex or Enchantment spells most times a waste of a spot in PVE, due to the cool down times of most of them. When I do carry Shatter Hex, I only usually use it on the warrior or Monk, who usually has the most enemies around them. Anti Enchants are fine, but Eles and Monk classes are really the only ones with them, so if you dont run into one for a good ammount of time, you just have a slot that's going to waste. They work better in PVP, because you have singular targets that you know will be using Enchants.

Its a spread rumor that Dom Mesmers dont last long in PVE by themselves, and that rumor comes from the fact that no group will take a mesmer who doesnt have shutdown and spam hexes. Which, cant be used as high attacks to take down targets who are attacking you. The problem lies in groups making a Mesmer switch out their own build for what the group wants. Which is usually Anti Caster or Anti Warrior. And when a Mesmer builds against one, they become completely vulnerable to the other.

And that's when we die,
And that's why monks dont heal us. Because we arent doing something against everyone, we're only doing one side, because no one will take us if we dont.

KaPe

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Jun 2005

"And that's why monks dont heal us"

Yeah yeah, blame your suckiness on monks I heal everyone, but if someone, be it mesmer, ranger or even another monk blames something on me, I might delay my healing for one crucial second, letting them die.(well, not really, unless they *really* piss me off) Don't make yourself sound like poor child, abused by evil monks, any half-decent healer monk will try to keep entire party at full health, prioritizing monks over everyone else - but that's it, there's nothing sayins "Mesmer=don't heal".

lg5000

lg5000

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Jul 2005

Australia

To monks not healing mesmers, and people not liking them in groups.., I believe it's because a mesmer doesn't show anything for his/her work.

A warrior, EVERYONE sees doing something, you can see the effects of a ele casting whatever nasty fire spell they're currently using, the monk, the blue numbers indicate that they're doing something. Necros have minions and make life bars of enemies turn green. Rangers have the same ability, and besides, they get to carry a cool bow. Mesmers.. make life bars turn pink.

My mesmer is currently domination orientated, and doesn't make life bars turn pink. But he can make sure the enemy monk can't heal. That's not something anyone sees, and I'm glad we had a good monk in sf, cause my mesmer ended up within meele range due to the priest of sorrow standing that far back.

As for the not getting any healing/resing that depends entirly on the monk. I've been in one or two teams where ressing the mesmer (who has resurect/restore live and fast casting) was last on their priority list, even though only 2 out of 8 people were still standing. And teams like last night, where the monk makes sure that everyone is healed and rezzed.

Coming from a monk though, if things went badly and I'm the last one standing, I'll rebirth the team, either from top down or bottom up, depending on how I feel.. not according to what profession you are or aren't. Healing happens to whoever needs it, those that die, are those who I wasn't able to get to fast enough, or, given a choice of 2, they were currently the less important one.

Thomasuwoo

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: May 2005

Australia

Savior Of Souls

W/E

You mean people don't want shatter hex in there? Backfire and blackout for the healers? Heh I know the feeling, it's why I alsoways form my own groups whereever I go.

The Purple Pants Guy

Academy Page

Join Date: Sep 2005

I was looking through this thread and saw...
Quote:
Originally Posted by asd123
i love counterstrike Ew.

Saerden

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: May 2005

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcanis the Omnipotent
Ok, combine Conjure Phantasm, Phantom Pain and Crippling Anguish on one foe, then cast any number of shutdowns on the monk in the area.

Lets see how long the guy lasts at -10 Health and people nailing him for damage. Including the Mesmer who just used a high level energy Surge or Burn for 80 Damage.

Huh, didnt think of that one, did ya?

Seriously the fact that you dont know how to use any of those skills effectively shows you have never played a mesmer, or were one of those ones you complained about who dont know how. Are you seriouss?? Thats exactly what i ment when i said pathetic mesmers. Mesmers that do stuff like conjure, phantom and crippling on one foe, then boast about 20 dps (single-target) out of 3 skills, one being elite.

Phades has a great explanation imho. I would post more on the other skills, but right now, the new skill changes are not in effect. There is no point discussing skills right now, as they will be changed in a couple days.

coolsti

coolsti

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jul 2005

Denmark

Went out in a group last night to do that really long quest from Ventari (evesdropping and the followup quest) with a group of 3 Me, 1 E, Alesia as Mo and Stefan as pet Warrior. Ok, admittedly two of us Me's were a bit too high level for this quest, but man, did we have a good time. I got a chance to try out some skill combinations that I never tried before (know that shackles + mind wrack that the Mergoyles always throw at you? Works great!). A Mesmer + a good combination of Me skills is such boon to a team. Currently I am playing Illusion+Inspiration with no domination, and equipping skills mostly against warriors (as opposed to stopping spellcasting) and its great!

Ashley Twig

Ashley Twig

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: May 2005

germany

Guild Of Openhearted Deeds

R/Mo

Quote:
Originally Posted by Saerden
Good ways to recognize bad mesmers:
...Conjure Phantasm... Bad mesmer: here!
Guilty as charged.

Unfortunately it was the bad mesmer who killed the JadeBows with that crappy spell singlehandedly on the "kill markis"-mission, while everybody else on the team was dead.

cooljelly

cooljelly

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Aug 2005

Me/

Ahh... After finishing all the quests in SF, I quit playing my mesmer in PVE.
Not much left to do with the henchies, and it's not very enjoyable to play with other players.
Finding a party is just a pain in the butt. So I decided just to play my monk.
Surprisely, when my monk was in warcamp looking for party, somebody was calling out glf a domination mesmer for farming.

I was curious about this group, so I changed to my mesmer and joined the group. As soon as I joined, 8 skills were thrown out at me by the party leader. Basically, all 8 skills were about removing hex/enchantment(shatter hex, echo, arcane echo, inspired hex, inspired enchantment, shatter enchantment, Rez, and something I do not remember).

I told him that my skill bar has shatter hex, and I would like to bring backfire, empathy, and cry of frustration to be more flexible. The party leader told me that I would either change to the skills he listed or get kicked. Well, I eventually got kicked because I simply do not agree with this skill setup.

Although it was his right to kick me as a party leader, that was rather unpleasant to get kicked even before I got to show them what I can do...

I have been playing PVE in SF extensively with my mesmer and the henchie team. I am pretty familair with the skills monsters use, and there are many places which do not have a lot of hex spells going on. And I seriously doubt using echo/arcane echo+shatter hex will out damage the empathy and backfire combination overally since in a lot of situations, you just don't get a continuous supply of hex(the condition supply is somehow fairly continuous I think), and what do I do at those situations? wand them to death?

Ahh... anyways, it's too troublesome to play my mesmer with a group of players in PVE; I decide to quit and play my monk.

coolsti

coolsti

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jul 2005

Denmark

I don't think using phantasm means a bad Mesmer. It is a good hex, especially combined with mantra of persistence and either phantom pain or crippling anguish. What marks perhaps a poor mesmer is one that only brings damaging skills and ignores all the other neat things.

Last night I played around with some combinations, like shackles + mind wrack, and had a real lot of fun seeing what they all can do.

What people don't realize is that there are so many things a mesmer can do. Ineptitude and clumsiness are two of my current favorites, they won't kill a warrior but certainly help one of my warriors kill them!

I would like to go out with a party of all mesmers + 1 warrior + 1 healer. Now that would really be a fun party!!!

Arcanis the Omnipotent

Arcanis the Omnipotent

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Sep 2005

Nova Alliance

Me/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Saerden
Are you seriouss?? Thats exactly what i ment when i said pathetic mesmers. Mesmers that do stuff like conjure, phantom and crippling on one foe, then boast about 20 dps (single-target) out of 3 skills, one being elite. And apparently you've never actually done that, because if you had, you would know that by the time you cast Conjure, then Phantom, you can cast Conjure again on someone else. Its usually a 10-12 second length on most Mesmers with a 5 second cool down. If you cast it, then something else... do the math, genius.

And coolsti is right, bringing just damage skills is wrong. Any damage skills I bring along all have some other effect with them. Energy Burn a monk, then Energy Surge and Chaos Storm the mob around the monk, usually having Conjure and Phantom on at least 2 people in the Mob. Hurting and stealing energy at the same time. My lightning side casts uses Envenerating to cast weakness on the tanks who go after the monks in my party. A great thing about that is being able to use Frag if I really need to.

Saerden

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: May 2005

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcanis the Omnipotent
And apparently you've never actually done that, because if you had, you would know that by the time you cast Conjure, then Phantom, you can cast Conjure again on someone else. Its usually a 10-12 second length on most Mesmers with a 5 second cool down. If you cast it, then something else... do the math, genius. Conjure Phantasm (CP): 1s cast - 5s recharge; 10 energy for ~ 12s duration. 10 dmg each second for 120 dmg max*

Phantom Pain (PP) : 2s cast - 15s recharge; 10 energy for 10s duration. 6dmg each second for 60dmg max*. Deep wound for another potential 100dmg after 10s or when removed

[Crippling Anguish (CA)]: 1s cast - 20s recharge; 15 energy for ~18s duration. 6dmg each second for 108dmg max*.
(max dmg calculated @12 illusion)

You seem to indicate CP PP CA casting sequence. 10+10+15=35 energy, 4s total unmodded cast time +2.25 unreducable aftercast result in:
assuming 9 fast cast:

~0,7s cast - 10dps for the next 12s - 0,75 aftercast -> 120 dmg total
~ 1,4s cast - 6dps for the next 10s - 0,75 aftercast -> 60dmg + 100 dmg deep wound
~0,7 cast - 4 dps for the next 9 seconds and 6 dps for another 9s - 0,75 aftercast -> 36+ 54
total: ~ 5s "casting + aftercast" + 18s duration; ~ 390dmg; ~18dps; ~ 11,1 dpe

skills: 2 slots, 1 elite

no recasts included.

Analysis: you need ca. 23s and 35 energy to deliver 390 dmg (including deep wound) to one enemy who will be slowed after ca. 4s for the reminding duration of this "combo". At 12 illusion and 9 fast cast, taking 2slots + 1 elite.

conjure phantasm alone does a dps of 10 for a maximum of 120dmg over 12s with an illusion of 12 and without mantra of persistance, costing 10 energy.

coolsti

coolsti

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jul 2005

Denmark

If you want to analyze the usefullness of CP PP CA casting in the manner of the previous posts, then you can easilly come to the conclusion that the Mesmer class is worthless, that you should instead choose something else like Warrior or Elementalist.

But don't forget that the neat thing about the Mesmer is its diversity and how selecting the proper skills for the proper occasion can do many different tasks. And remember this: this is a game, it is not real life. And as a game, it is supposed to bring all of us entertainment and enjoyment and a relief from boredom. And as such, the diversity of what a Mesmer can do fits this bill greatly. I enjoy playing my Mesmer because I can select different sets of skills for different purposes. And I play my other characters because playing my Mesmer all the time would be boring.

I did the game's final mission with a friend playing his Mesmer character, and I just watched while he single handedly killed all the Wraiths guarding the three portals at the end of the mission, one at a time, by running in, casting Mantra of Persistence, then the CP PP CA combination, then run out again out of their range. Did this for each wraith. I thought that was neat.

Another thing to remember: its much much easier to kill a foe as, for example, a warrior, when that foe also has -5 to -10 health degeneration because of the Mesmer hexes. Or when a hex is removed from the Warrior by the Mesmer (causing significant damage to surrounding foes at the same time). Teamwork. Maybe the Mesmer alone is not strong enough to clobber a lot of enemies at a time, but the Mesmer can sure make it easier for the team to do so.

octaviancmb

octaviancmb

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: May 2005

Me/

After much anguish attempting to group with PUGs as my Mesmer (in both PvP and PvE), I've come to understand the following great truths with regard to the profession:
A bad PUG + a bad Mesmer = disaster A bad PUG + a good Mesmer = disaster A good PUG + a bad Mesmer = disaster A good PUG + a good Mesmer = fantastic
Considering most PUGs are bad PUGs, it's no wonder Mesmers are unwanted. These truths are as equally applicable to Sorrows Furnace as anywhere else in Guild Wars. It doesn't matter how good you are, if you're playing a Mesmer, you'll never save a bad group. This also explains why Mesmers are so very, very good with the henchmen in PvE and why people target Mesmers for death after the first few moments of PvP (assuming the Mesmer is any good...).

cmb

Arcanis the Omnipotent

Arcanis the Omnipotent

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Sep 2005

Nova Alliance

Me/

Saerden: You have not played through very much of PVE as a Mesmer, and anyone can tell it. You obviously know nothing about what your talking about, even with your big equations.

So tell me something, exactly at what point in this this equation did you forget about the 3-7 other members of the party you're working with?

Because your DoT formula acts in the sense that the Mesmer is the only person there. Wow... a Mesmer Solo? No wonder you dont know anything.

Even though your profession isnt listed, I'd swear you were a tank.

Saerden

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: May 2005

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcanis the Omnipotent
Saerden: You have not played through very much of PVE as a Mesmer, and anyone can tell it. You obviously know nothing about what your talking about, even with your big equations.

So tell me something, exactly at what point in this this equation did you forget about the 3-7 other members of the party you're working with?

Because your DoT formula acts in the sense that the Mesmer is the only person there. Wow... a Mesmer Solo? No wonder you dont know anything.

Even though your profession isnt listed, I'd swear you were a tank. 1. i dont play a profession, i play 8 skills.

2. A DoT is a DoT, no matter how many people you include. A skill, or a combination of skills ("combo") does not work differently under different circumstances. Math is math. What changes are synergies.
Conjure phantasm has slightly negative synergies: It uses 5 degen pips that cant be taken by other, more efficient DoTs. Not an issue normaly - but still. Phantom pain inflicts a deep wound. Again, there are better ways to do this.

Slowing, DoTing and then focus firing is actually a horrible idea.
The only thing your teammates would care about is when you do your nice little trick on an
offtarget warrior running amok amidst the casters. But then, why not just slow him with something that is not elite and do the dmg later with stuff that is more efficient?

3. You fail to provide reasons why the listed skills, especially conjur phantasm, are even worth bothering with. Things like "someone who suffers from 10 degen is easier to kill when focus fired by your teammates" is ... not really convincing to say it politely. Either there is a hidden mechanic that would allow DoTs to do something beyond the listed (poor) dmg, or the mob
would go down even faster when instead of the mesmer who just burned 35 of his energy, a warrior would be pen/evisc/exec the poor sob.

4. coolsti: mesmers have some fun skills, but fun is something entirely different. There is no point arguing about that. Just remember that we are talking about "facts" here - you can still do a 6 mesmer / 2 monks team and surge-spike everything Actually, i would love to try this one day ...

5. octaviancmb: i think you are right - being a good mesmer is hard as hell though. Especially since meteor shower and maelstorm do everything a mesmer should do: shutdown.

Ende

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Jul 2005

as someone who has played every profession in the game (pve) to a certain degree, i have to say mesmer is my favorite. but, at the same time i agree that some skills are nearly useless in later stages of the game and the entire class is somewhat lacking efficiency compared to an ele or even a necro.

interrupt? so what? there are five other casters out there casting the same spell. chaos storm? damage is pathetic in comparison and energy denial is near impossible against high-end monsters. degen? when a monster has tons of health as they do, degen becomes insignificant, 200 damage over 15 seconds or so is nothing to brag about. ask an ele what he can do to an entire mob in 15 seconds. in pve you need to kill as many creatures FAST, else they will kill you. so basically the entire illusion attribute line is inferior in pve, since it will only target a single creature and usually will not take it out.

or maybe that final monk boss and his other monk friend healing eachother forever? one meteor shower/maelstorm and the warriors distracting blow the other = problem solved.

even empathy, which had a nice comfortable place on my skillbar for 3/4 of the game is now out.

a few skills do have a nice aoe spiking damage. like energy surge and shatter hex (one of my favorites). seeing 120 damage on half a screen full of monsters is heartwarming. backfire is good spike damage on casters, and good to negate healing spells. and there are a few others that can deal some nice damage. again, nothing better than an elementalist or warrior with the right set of skills.

BUT usually, most pugs cannot rely on the warrior taking distracting blow or the ranger packing interrupt (everyone wants to deal damage, right?). eles will take meteor shower but that's about it. and so we get people spending 30 minutes to kill two healers and eventually lose the mission. any decent mesmer will make sure that doesn't happen. if we're fighting a monk and it's taking too long it's because i'm messing up.

the proud mesmers that i've seen and talked to, will play with all their heart and all their intellect. we live for that one battle, for that one power spike on that last spell when half the team is dead. we live to help others do their jobs better, and if that's the kind of thinking any player of any profession feels, i want him on my team.

pvp? that's a totally different story. but that's in another time.

coolsti

coolsti

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jul 2005

Denmark

A comment on the post by Ende:

when evaluating the worth of a Mesmer, the strategy of "all targetting the same enemy" and fighting a group quickly one-by-one in this manner should be remembered.

Good groups play this way. Someone targets, and everyone goes after the targetted enemy. That way a mob group is knocked down far easier than when everyone goes after their own target.

And this is where a Mesmer so nicely fits in. If the target is a spellcaster, the Mesmer interrupts, steals energy, etc. If the target is a warrior or ranger, the mesmer uses clumsiness, ineptitude, or whatever stops melee and ranged shooting. Or a hex breaker does wonders for the team's warriors. It must be far easier for the rest of the team to kill the targetted foe when it is blinded (e.g. ineptitude), spell-interrupted, attack-blocked (e.g. clumsiness), etc., or when a hex is removed from a warrior, doing damage to all surrounding foes.

The point is, a Mesmer alone against a crowd is not very effective, that is for sure. But a Mesmer aiding the team with any other foe is fantastic!

Regarding chaos storm: this is a spell that maybe should not be used by a high level Mesmer - such damage is better done by an elementalist. But try using arcane echo + chaos storm + chaos storm (using echo to use chaos storm twice in a row in the same location). Double the chaos storm damage, and that is more effective.

Ende

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Jul 2005

coolsti, the strategy you mention is indeed prevailing (i did not beat the game and gotten all skills by targeting random monsters ). yet for the price of clumsiness+empathy+whatever, the elementalist can bring meteor shower and interrupt+damage+knockdown EVERYTHING. sure a mesmer is a nice added bonus, but is not considerably better in single target shutdown than many other professions like hammer warrior or interrupt ranger, who can do the mesmer's job with some added, significant, damage bonus.

regarding the echoed chaos storm: i use that a lot myself, but we have to admit, there are better, more powerful aoe spells to echo. an ele/mesmer can echo much more damage per second.

hex breaker? for the team warriors? i assume you mean shatter hex, and if so then i totally agree and wrote about it in my post. removing a hex AND spiking tons of damage on a huge area is great. i pack this one almost every time (unless i know not many hexes are thrown in an area).

i do agree that it seems teams do better in pve when a mesmer is around (a good mesmer that is) but my argument is that it is not due to the particular skills a mesmer brings along, but due to the nature of high level mesmer players, who notice which skills are used by mobs and teammates, who notice the status of the battle, who watch people's lifebars and in general develop overtime. i know from my experience that playing a mesmer in pve has made me a better player altogether, regardless of what class i choose to play.

as someone else (don't remember who) wrote once: i'd rather bring a mesmer, at least they read the skill descriptions.

keep them comments coming. i'm dying someone will convince me otherwise. it will make me even more proud of playing my favorite class.

Louis Ste Colombe

Academy Page

Join Date: May 2005

Echoed Chaos Storm?



It goes without saying that a mesmer got to change its skill bar to match what the team will meet on its way, probably more than any other class.

IMO, a mesmer is better used diverting off target. Everyone focus on a target, but the mesmer diverting other spellcaster, either interrupting or draining dry, or backfire/diversion (during recharge time).
What's the point hexing for 10/20 sec someone that will die in the next 5 sec? Isn't that better to shutdown a caster that is NOT going to die anytime soon, while your team kill all the others. No reason to take down the shutdown caster anytime soon...
The last ennemy I want dead is the one with Sympathetic Visage on it... Or the drained monk with 0 energy. Let it live, kill other stuff first!

Good mesmers don't follow called target.

Louis,

Ende

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Jul 2005

Quote:
Originally Posted by Louis Ste Colombe
Good mesmers don't follow called target. well i think it depends. most of the time if there is a monk it will get targeted first and then we all follow target. sometimes you can leave the enemy caster to do his thing and just bash thru and leave him for last. sometimes you need the tanks to keep the mobs busy while the ranged attackers/casters pound on the monk behind... every battle is slightly different and that's what's so cool about GW.

A good PLAYER imo is one that is quick to adapt to changing situations, follow targets yet takes initiative to help his teammates, and knows which skills to bring and use in any given situation.


p.s. also, imo backfire cannot be considered shutdown in pve, as they will cast thru it and unless someone is pounding on that same target most of the time it will not kill them. and even if it kills them, there's usually one or two others right next to that fiend who will cast uninterrupted.

FalconDance

FalconDance

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Sep 2005

...deep within the sylvan splendor...

Order of the Migrating Coconuts [ALBA]

Well, my Mesmer is a lowly level 17 and has only peeked in the 'door' of Sorrow's Furnace (having gotten herself there solo with only henchies as backup). BUT she can be, and has been, an enemy's worst nightmare come true time and time again!

Perhaps Phantasm and the others are more-than-worthless at higher levels of play, but for the first 2/3 of the game, they can be some of the best skills to use, especially if going solo with henchies. Heck, I've been in what should have been kick-ass groups who were *far* less helpful than henches (and that takes some doing!).

As for everyone targetting the same enemy........once I see that an enemy is taken care of, I can throw the much maligned Phantasm their way and turn to the next one to start the process of death long before a warrior disengages and re-engages the fight. In essence, in a decent group, a mesmer can not only shut the baddie down, they can more effectively and much more quickly bring the battle to fruition...........if they know their skills and are allowed to do their job by the warriors/leaders of the group.

Typically I go solo with henchies (if need fodder...., I mean, backup) in PvE. I'd like to be able to say I've played with great groups and there have been a couple, but for the most part, a group of six (or 8) goes out on a mission and it seems that five (seven) decide to go their own way fighting and then get all pissy when the mission fails. I advertise for a TEAM who can work together---and every now and then I find one.

The only class I've found to be less respected and recognized is Ranger. My level 13 is shunned by everyone (except two individuals) for group play because of her class.....and she's the one who is the most successful at runs, long-range enemy take-downs and all around get-you-there! Seems to me people need to bring out the D&D rulebooks again and re-read class descripts.

coolsti

coolsti

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jul 2005

Denmark

I wonder.

I can see the point that a good task for a Mesmer in certain situations is to cast off target in order to disrupt some irritating spellcasters in the background. I do this a lot.

And I can see the point that there is no point in a Mesmer hexing a foe that is about to die anyway because 3 Warriors and 2 Rangers are beating on him.

But I have played a lot in PVE parties where there was only one Warrior, or even if there were more, it seemed to take an effort to knock down each foe. And in this case, and assuming there is no more irritating spellcaster around, isn't it better to aid the foe that the others are trying to kill quickly with a little bit of -HP degradation or maybe a little bit of attack blocking? Does that not help in this situation? Or doesn't it matter in the least?

I think one thing to remember is that this is a game, at least the PVE portion of it, and Anet has obviously created the Mesmer profession to make the game more interesting. It could be argued that you can do without a Mesmer at any time, taking instead an extra Warrior, or an Elementalist, or whatever. But people play Mesmers, and it adds diversity to the game. And diversity to the team strategy, if the team cares to work together as a team. I might say no to having too many Mesmers on the team (actually, had a lot of fun the other night with 3 Mesmers in a party of 6) but I would never say no to at least one Mesmer.

I play a lot with only henchies with my Mesmer, simply because I can do things like Elite skill hunting in a relaxed pace. Maybe the henchies at level 20 are darn good, but for some reason, I seem to do extremely well with them when I equip the correct skills. Maybe next time I go out and do this, I will target, but not cast any spells, and see how well the henchies do without my Mesmer help

What is confusing about echoed chaos storm, by the way? It may not be the best thing to do, but when I go out with only henchies in an area filled with large mobs, it seems pretty effective when I cast two times chaos storm near my tanking warriors. I think I am giving 12 damage times 2 per second for a lot of seconds = a lot of damage. Makes it easy for the warriors to clean up after. Nice thing here is that the computer enemy doesn't know enough to move out of the chaos storm area. And yes, doing this with an elementalist would maybe be much more effective, but this is me playing my Mesmer, not me playing my Elementalist, and besides arcane echo and chaos storm, I have 6 other more diverse skills equipped.

Regarding Rangers (previous post): I am playing a ranger now together with some friends, and am just about to ascend. And I would say that rangers are great! I am equipping a trap, and distracting shot and savage shot among others, and I can really disrupt a lot of skills and spells with the latter two. If I can get away with it, I set a trap at the start of each battle and even during the longer battles if possible, and it has proven extremely helpful in case the monks and elementalist get mobbed (I tell them to run past me, since I stand where I set the trap).

Lord Tekster

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Jul 2005

Me/Mo

Quote:
Originally Posted by octaviancmb
But neither we nor our necrotic buddies (who, like us, have no difficulties at all dealing massive damage regardless of armor or terrain barriers) never get any cred. Even in the unlikely event we are invited into groups, the other professions get all the props.

Typical l33t Wa/Mo: "i pwn3d th4t m0k b0ss!!! i r0x0rz" Nevermind the 294 damage our "pointless" backfire did in 3 seconds, the diversions that locked the mob down, or the enchanments we removed off it. Nope, it was all you, Warrior.
exactly just been in a group on my me/mo playing hex removal/prot in this 6 man farm group so since there is just me and another monk the group says they should kick me but i know the leader so they stick with it. Anyway half way through clearing out sorrows furnace the warrior starts getting arrogant saying our group didnt need me and should have just been 5 people.
Right, thats really ticked me off so i say:
'ok since you dont need me carry on i'll brb'
remove life bond from w/mo and in 2 minutes im rebirthing the whole team laughing at them.

Zhou Feng

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Aug 2005

CATS

Mo/Me

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobsura
How can you judge if a Mesmer is any good i am not doing spike damage, i am not focus firing, i am hanging back cause of armor level, most of the time i am being chased around and not being healed because i am just a mesmer, and if i die i don't get rezzed until the fight is over. You also can't judge a mesmer until your in the fight which brings me back to the original point of getting on a team. For ever 1 person who wants a mesmer on thier team there is 1000 who don't. To make things worse i got bored waiting in towns trying to find PUGs so i made a new character and guess what it was a Necro.
Same thing so i erased him and made a monk, maybe i can get in groups with him. I love picking up mesmers for my group because of all their abilities. Too bad you erased yours I would have been glad to bring you along. And since IM THE healer no one can say jack.

XioleD

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Aug 2005

Belgium

European Assasins

W/Mo

hmmz, you know why our team always own in Tomb, BECAUSE we have good mesmer in guild... Bye Bye Monk, Bye Bye Ele. whith good mesmer, they cant do anything because they dont have energy, or lose loads of health with casting spells. Good that other people don't understand the use of mesmers ...

Sister Rosette

Sister Rosette

Lady Fie

Join Date: Aug 2005

Sapporo

Tha Skulls [Ts]

D/W

Agreed. My Me/N can rock the box in both PvP and PvE.
Conjure F/Life Siphon the crap out of someone, and when someone
is about to heal them, throw Mark of Subversion on them.

The spell fails. They die. You get health. <3

Precur

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Feb 2005

Magog, Qc .. Canada

SCUM

N/Me

The biggest problem Mesmers face are the loads of Nimrods who dont understand anything but bash, nuke and heal coupled with this (Me, Myself and I) attitude .. ie ... res is for noobs .. i need my slots for uber damage skill .. Mesmers suxs boot him .. ya cant do this mission without 3 monks 2 eles & 3 warriors. Why three monks? its to cover their mistakes .. when you know what is happening and that prevention > healing the need for monks is non-essential.

Alot of people fail doing Thirsty River, Thunderhead Keep or Hell's Percipise because it demands teamwork, comprenhesion of the mission and mobs within it.

So yeah it's a tough life being one of the unpopular (misunderstood) professions of this game (ie.. Necros. Mesmers and Rangers) the only advise I can say is henchies are your best friends but when you do fall upon a good group add them to your friends list.


Pax

Tallanka

Tallanka

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: May 2005

Knights of Immortal Blood (KoiB)

R/Mo

Guildies FTW!

Brother Redmund

Brother Redmund

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Aug 2005

Australia

guildless

Hi,

thought i should contribute since my first (and favourite) char in GW is my Me/N. firstly i know what you mean about HOH and FOW, i am trying to get some fame/rank going and have not been in a winning team for weeks, its killing me!!!
As for sorrows furnace, i would like to point out my experience from farming there last weekend. A guild mate (ascended lvl20 wa/mo) and myself as a mesmer, and the two monk henches in a group of four successfully farmed almost all of sorrows furnace in a single run!!! we killed like 12 or so bosses and were fortunate enough to share about 7-8 greens between us.
I now believe that sorrows farming is about technique, not numbers. quite frankly my mesmer dealt some serious dmg to the stone summit and required the tank simply to hold them away from me while casting. dont depair get a good small group (guild mates or friends preferably) be prepared to farm over 3 hours in a single run and you will be fine.
anyone who says mesmers are useless either: (a) has never had a good mesmer in their group; or (b) simply is too dimwitted enough to understand the subtlety with which a good mesmer can annihilate an enemy. good luck never give up on the mesmer they are essential to a good team build

Maika Boila Radovu

Maika Boila Radovu

Academy Page

Join Date: May 2005

White Rock, BC

Starfleet Intelligence Guild

R/Mo

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brother Redmund
Hi,

thought i should contribute since my first (and favourite) char in GW is my Me/N. firstly i know what you mean about HOH and FOW, i am trying to get some fame/rank going and have not been in a winning team for weeks, its killing me!!!
As for sorrows furnace, i would like to point out my experience from farming there last weekend. A guild mate (ascended lvl20 wa/mo) and myself as a mesmer, and the two monk henches in a group of four successfully farmed almost all of sorrows furnace in a single run!!! we killed like 12 or so bosses and were fortunate enough to share about 7-8 greens between us.
I now believe that sorrows farming is about technique, not numbers. quite frankly my mesmer dealt some serious dmg to the stone summit and required the tank simply to hold them away from me while casting. dont depair get a good small group (guild mates or friends preferably) be prepared to farm over 3 hours in a single run and you will be fine.
anyone who says mesmers are useless either: (a) has never had a good mesmer in their group; or (b) simply is too dimwitted enough to understand the subtlety with which a good mesmer can annihilate an enemy. good luck never give up on the mesmer they are essential to a good team build Could you possibly post or PM me your rough build as I'm looking for Ideas. I have a lvl 20 Me/R ascended but not infused, just now got all the attribute points I can get.

I want to play around with using the R interupt skills in conjunction with the mesmer shutdown skills. Like I said I would like some ideas on builds and skills how you used what to acomplish what goals. I hope thats not too much to ask.

PS Mesmers rock the free world!

widowdaballa

widowdaballa

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Sep 2005

TeXaS

Xen of Onslaught [XoO] Xen Of Heroes Division

Mesmers suck!! Well, just the henchman mesmer does lol! I like a good mesmer in a PUG i make anyday!

Sai of Winter

Sai of Winter

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Aug 2005

[ale]

Mo/

Mesmers are good for any mission/quest and farming. People just got to know how to use their skills correctly. Sometimes it is always good to bring a Mesmer along because their skills work effectively. I have always wonder if only Pros play as Mesmers, just a thought.

Saerden

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: May 2005

More discussion, more good points, and the obligatory recomendation of suboptimal skills. Plus some of the typical attitude: a good [misunderstood class here] is just to subtle for you stupid tank.

Anyone interested in discussing mesmer skills that are SUPERIOR to what a third monk or a third ele can do? A mesmer may be able to do this and that, but i had enough mesmers that brought chaos storm and the like for my lifetime...

My ranger had an easier time with henches (thirsty is easy, never tried elona, got a run) then a warrior because of range. Easier controlling henches this way. Same thing can be said for a mesmer. Because henches are suboptimal dmg, healing and almost no real support, a good mesmer or ranger actually helps them shine. Cynn will use some stupid combos, mobs dont just die seeing her. So shutting down someone has an effect, because while mhenlo and lina can heal, they are in no way comparable to the mo/me or mo/n.

In a good player team, you will never notice, because the ele has echo /dual attunement/glyph of energy and not mind burn, the healing monk has a great build instead of the medicore, and the prot monk does not bring prot spirit into pve (or at least dont use it on warriors). The warrior does either tank or use pen/evisc/exec. And not the dreaded wild blow -> exec combo

A bad PUG is not realiable enough to work with a mesmer. A good PUG is good enough to completely ignore support and anihilate any easy pve challenge there is.

experimental / fun builds are one part of GW, but efficiency is the other. I've yet to see [more] reasons why mesmers are needed in a group that knows what they are doing. Sure they wont hurt either. But lets be honest. Ive seen eles with flare. Mesmers with conjure phantasm are nothing compared to that.

On a different note - any necros that want to try out minion master / sacrifice builds in pve?