Why Rank is hurting the community and why we should boycott groups that ask for it...

I've been seeing all these threads about IWAY or other FotM, and I've admit to participating to many of them. But the result is always the same: a group of person defends IWAY (or FotM) saying it's beatable, and another group discrediting it saying it's too prevalent. But few have approached the real reason behind all these problems: rank!

You see; rank is often used as a measure for groups to weed out bad players. It has been somewhat useful in the past, before the problems that are now rampant appeared. Now, it only splits the community and stifles innovation. (Wow; it sounds as if I'm about to start a lecture on patents!)

Let's take example of any new player to the tombs. He arrives into American District 3, and all he sees are "GLF Order Necro for IWAY", "Rank 4+ IWAY W/Mo LFG". He doesn't have much rank, so he does not manage to get into any group there. He changes districts and instantly gets picked by a blind invite PUG. They don't even get past the unworthy. No rank. He gets kicked from group (or group disbands by itself), and he gets into another random blind invite. These ones are lucky and get past the unworthy. He gets to fight against a IWAY team. He loses; still no rank. Noticed anything? Yeah, I've never said he was a bad player.

It just turned out he was only picked by bad groups. Why? BECAUSE HE HAS NO RANK! Of course, IWAY groups are not really good by themselves. But they require a minimum amount of synergy to beat. It's not a matter of being "skilled" by yourself. It's a matter of teamplay. The kind of teamplay groups that usually take Rank 0s without asking DO NOT HAVE!

Of course; he could start playing IWAY to get some fame, but keep in mind this is not the way the game was supposed to be played. Groups are supposed to be diverse and there are supposed to be experimentation with skill builds. If we allow a "meta-game" concern such as fame dictate the way we play; we will on long-term kill the community.

So I call for a boycott of groups that ask for rank before invite. There is a much better way to get good players: just ask questions about what they do and (more importantly) why they do it. If he can't answer correctly but seem a decently intelligent person; you can always give some friendly and non-condescending advice. A rank 0 with a good understanding of his build is much better than a rank 4 who has been playing exclusively IWAY up until recently. It's short, and you will get much better players.

And if anyone at ArenaNet sees this thread. Please think about what Rank does to the community. Maybe you'll find it's not worth it.

This is more germaine to the Sardelac Sanitarium. I will move it there.

So what you're saying is that it is a self propelling downward spiral. Mediocre players with rank tend to get more rank because they can get into good groups while good/excelent players with no rank cannot get into good groups and so continue to have no rank. I agree that this is true but since I only really play with guildies it's not much of an issue for me.

Indeed, this does not apply to PvP active guilds. But not everyone has the luxury to have one.

I'd like for my guild to be more active on the PvP side of things, but it's a regional (Quebec) guild with Real-Life friends I would feel bad leaving in the dust (especially since I'm the leader). So I have to play with PUGs, which would not be so bad if rank didn't break the mecanism.

Feel free to boycott away, not like you are the only player in the community, plenty of other people to choose from.
Seriously if people cannot see the point of the rank system by now, they need to wise up.

As I've said over and over again, it is best to make your own circle of friends in PvP and draw from them to make tombs groups. You have a friends list - use it.

Rank is best used as a metric to pick up random people to fill in the last 1 or 2slots you have left. Many groups (especially guild groups), do this already. If you want to get invited by these guild groups, become friends with some of the guild members, that way you get priority (regardless of rank) over some random player.

Read above. Asking questions is much better for that than rank, and it's barely longer.

Ive always felt that a better team finding and planning interface would clean up the mess often made with PUGS.

If it were so possable that players that wanted to group with other people that can create a plan with tools provide ingame then, in addition to TS and Vent (TS and Vent are an after thought for PUGs and shouldnt be expected for the common player) they could probably learn to enjoy an important part of the game thats overlooked, grouping and planning, which would aid to thier success in good teamplay, thus removing blind invites and no planning groups.

Do not exist unless they're on their second account. PvE does NOT prepare you for PvP.

That maybe true but that does not mean that you completely suck. Also what about all the other arena's sure they are different than 8vs8 pvp but noone is good when they first start. They learn along the way less so with the droks armor in lvl 1-10 arena's but you still learn more from loss than from victory. There are arena's along the way to learn and gain xp.

Incorrect, there are some phenominal players with low rank (like rank 2.) Remember tombs is not the only PvP. There are some excellent GvG focused players out there. Some members of sB and IVEX had low rank because they didn't tombs much. They were superb players and an asset to any team.

Rank does not equal skill. There are poor players with rank (I have seem some awful rank 6 players) and great players without rank. Adding that number next to someone's name does not magically make them good. It is just a sifting method for getting through all the poor players quickly. You remove good players from your potential player pool in return for being able to more quickly assemble your group. I have been in and seen rank 1-3 groups defeat rank 6-9 groups. If rank truely was an indicator of skill that would never happen. Instead rank is an indicator of tombs experience. You just hope experienced people learned something in that 180 or 1000 fame.

Guizzy also brings up the point of IWAY. With IWAY rank means even less.

Of course; PvE does not.

But intelligence, teamplaying qualities and common sense do; and they do not seem to be a prerequisite to gain rank, with all those IWAY teams running around. It does not takes hours upon hours upon hours to understand how to play well if you are remotely intelligent and aware. "Knowing" the maps, the play modes is not nearly as important knowing HOW to play an intelligent and sound TEAMWORKING build, which IWAY never prepares people for. I'm rank 0, and I've been worth my slot on EVERY team I've been with. You don't believe that? Read around the posts I've written around here; I certainly do know my stuff.

So what, is it impossible I know all this stuff and still be rank 0? Must be a time-space anomaly or a software bug!

I think IWAY is the problem, not rank. What's happening is that you have PvP players who do nothing but form IWAY groups to "farm" fame and rank. They pick up a win or two per run by facing groups worse off than they are, but really don't accomplish anything. So in the end, they have rank, but little real skill or experience in PvP as all they know how to do is run mindless IWAY builds.

Now I hate to generalize. I'm sure there are good PvP players that run IWAY, and bad PvP players who never have. But I think this build is a contributor to the problem of rank, and ultimately diminishing its value.

The problem with that is that we'd have to assume IWAY is too powerful, which is very debatable.

By attacking the very source: "WHY are these people farming rank?" we can resolve the problem not only of IWAY, but of every cheap FotM.

People are farming rank with IWAY (or other FotM) because you can rarely find a good group unless you have rank or play a very specific FotM build. The fun starts when you can use your death necros, your interrupt mesmers, your water elementalists, your sword warriors in PvP. As of now, if you don't have rank; it's either you waste one hour and a half looking for a group, or you play FotM. So these people play these IWAY groups until they get some fame and can get accepted in other groups.

Some think it's ok, but this is NOT the way this came was intended to be. EVERY class is supposed to have a fair chance at getting into a group, and the best way to take care of that would be by removing the incentive to play IWAY.

If they nerf IWAY too badly, all those Warriors will start running Ranger close-range Trappers or Spikers. If they remove the INCENTIVE to play IWAY, people will be forced to accept new players regardless of the rank.

i fully agree and boycott ranking with /point /laugh since 3 months.

Or you take 15 to 20 minutes to form your own team.

But hey, noone does that. Complaining is easier...

Making your own team is an option, indeed. But if the group maker doesn't assume a leader role, the group is doomed to fail.

And, believe or not, sometimes I don't feel like leading!


I'm complaining because it's a clear problem to the game I paid for. The community is broken because of something, and it needs fixing, not workarounds.

I disagree also, PvE is what prepared me for PvP. Random Arenas in PvE, fighting monsters, and gaining knowledge about your chosen profession are excellent ways to move on to tombs.

You choose who you would rather have in your PvP group:

1) An experienced PvE player with 1000 hours logged.

2) A new player with 0 hours logged, but has studied the tomb maps.

"Experience" is priceless. I guarantee you that the experienced PvE player will have a better understanding of group formation, skill choices, and enemy counter attacks. Just because PvE'rs play against monsters that are not real, doesn't mean that they can't hold their own against real people. Alot of the enemy AI in PvE is better than real people, plus the enemy AI and real people are all using the same skills! Monsters and Human players are all granted the use of the same 450 skills.

I got 1,100 hours of playing GW (both PvE and PvP) and I think the OP is completely and utterly right. Maybe I will wise up after playing 2,000 hours of playing....

Monsters even got more skills! Some skills are for monsters only!!

But i do agree.
It's also almost impossible for a Ranger to find a decent Tomb group. Ranger are being underrated. Ppl see them as being children, loving to play with a bow, like indians or so (I really heard this as a reason one! ). And if you get invited, you land up in a full Rangerteam, 75% of the time, that try to Trap and Spirit the place. That doesn't work anymore though.

I think Rangers are pretty usefull though. With lots of interrupting skills, and Over-Time-Damage like Poison Arrow or Incediary Arrows, they deal quite some damage. That doesn't work anymore though. Monks and Ele's always get chosen first, it's just not faaaaiirrr

Sorry, that last part is whine, but i think i've made my point regarding Rangers

Razing

I totally agree with Razing..

Rangers are just not seen as a good profession, but I actually do a lot of dmg, but because I just have some arrows, and an ele has some cool looks when using skills, it looks like the elementalist does everything.

What i mean is:

Some1 sees his opponent losing a lot of health, while he sees a Meteor falling on top of him. << he will automatically asume the ele did it(in most cases this is true)

But it also happens that the opponent loses a lot of health, and then they don`t see that meteor. It never comes to him that another proffesion can do so much dmg, so he will think it is just coincedence of the whole team striking at the same time.

But back on topic, I totally agree that it is frustrating to get that Rank. And especially because people who came there by PvE, and not PvP, started up there later. The PvP guy will have some rank, while the PvE guys needs to gain it. But the PvE guy actually did something to get his character up there, so he will now a lot of skills, and won`t copy his build from a forum(like this 1

So... get rid of the Rank

If u are really good in PvP, you will get good friends in PvP too. Just as PvE make friends while doing missions.

What about the players who do some PvP such as team arena and also do GvG but don't do the tomb or halls? Are they bad just becuase they haven't done that one type before?

No, they're not and that's exactly the problem.

I learned my PvP with my PvE char; first in Comp arena, then I graduated to Team Arena (though I still come back to Comp when I need a quick fix and don't want to waste any time).

Now, I try to play Tombs. Note the word: "try". I've played with a few good groups, but most of my time is wasted waiting for a group that will accept me (only for it to be a blind invite group with 4 Whammos that don't make it past the first round). Yet I'm a goddamn build theorist! When I get sick of all the waiting and build my own group; we usually kick much butt for a PUG.

yknow i think the op is just rank 0 or something, and sad because groups wont take him

Amen Guizzy! I've spent most of my time in GvG or the 4-man areas. I get into Tombs w/some friends only rarely, and when I do I win. That's why I'm only rank 1, but I bet my overall tombs record is over .500. So here I am with a really low rank, unable to get into any decent group, only when some of my few friends are on.

If anyone else is in the same kind of boat, look me up in-game:
IGN: Drexorn Lighthammer (usually on as Drex Pvp)

I respectfully disagree with the OP in some senses. While he is right that Rank alone is not a very good measure of skill, rank IS a decent measuring unit. How does one measure anything without a unit to measure it in? Without rank you would have zero idea which players MIGHT be good. I'm currently rank 6 and a half and earned every bit of it the hard way, with at most 300 fame from 2 necro IWAY and a bit more from other types.

When I'm making a group (which is often) I want to know that people I'm recruiting know the maps, PERIOD. I don't care how "good" you are if you have no idea how to play a relic or altar map. I often end up with rank 3 or below people, and hardly demand rank 6+ unless its a build that I honestly believe has no chance with newer people.

Rank gives me a way to gauge a player initially. Sure I've had bad rank 6's, but 9 times out of 10 they are much more communicative, have more unlocked and generally preform better. I must say the only class I wouldn't want a rank 0 in is monk, unless they were from a good (top100 or so) gvg guild. Pve monking does NOT prepare you for pvp monking. Same with arena, hardly a comparison.

So remove rank and unconnected players have zero chance. Asking someone their bar is a mediocre way to test a player at best, and best used in conjunction with something else (rank or idk). If your a rank 0 "nub" and I play with you and your good, so what your rank 0. In my experience in tombs rank DOES matter with some exceptions.

Iway has to be one of the easier to win with FOTM's as initially it was very strong, but people have came up with counters for it and its pretty weak now imo.

Having gone from air spike nub lucky to get 1 fame in 2 hours to winning halls every once in a while (sometimes even holding omgeed) I really think earning fame up till 6-7 ish really does make one a better player, if only in knowing what is the current trend and how to play certain maps.

If you think fame is hard to get, try making a build or a group and if you still cant get any maybe reconsider how "pro" you really are. Joining a pvp guild never hurts as most of them will teach you tombs or gvg also.

So you are saying it's impossible to play teams arenas or guild battles and you are unskilled? Isn't that a horrible assumption to make? That's the mistake many people make. I'm a great mesmer, but putting together a team of 4 or working with guildies all the time is much different then finding 8 skilled people to fight against the rest of the world. I mean seriously, Tombs is set up to lose. How many PUGs have actually made it far past the ghostlys? Maybe a win or another, but I've gotten to 14 fame off of PUGS and let me tell you that I've lost countless more times than 14 wins against the first wave of people. I don't think I've even been in a team that's gone past the second human fight. I'm very skilled as a mesmer, but I'm just one man, I can't be the power to do everything for the other 7, so don't blame me for being unskilled.

Most groups usually ask for your skill bar first and then decide. Then they'll give you a chance or two going through the tombs.. if you suck, you're booted.

I find that including a rank requirement is very good at scaring away clueless people from spamming you. The amount of spam I get from saying 'Looking for high damage warrior' drops dramatically if I say "Looking for R3+ high damage warrior'.

If you want to join a group, just walk right up and pm the person. If you're really as experienced as you claim to be, then you should be able to fit right in.

I *do* have a 2nd account, on which I am experimenting with pure PvP. I began the account in CA with the Fi boon template, where I earned enough faction in 4 hours to unlock Aegis and Martyr. I then took the prot template to Tombs, and with the help of some good friends, earned r1 in under 2 hours. This account is currently guildless and has NO pve toons.

I played a healer and protection in PvE with my first character and completed the game before turning to smite farming. Monks are primary targets in PvE and require you to think fast and stay alive while healing a party of 8. Your insulting the abilities of every good PvE monk in the game with your statement, including me.


Pfff....as if PvP monking is so special.

Well, you're entitled to your opinion and you do try to explain it.

And fame IS hard to get if you never play IWAY and so. I've seen the maps; I know how they work; I've played them and yes, Smurfhunter, I still have that crappy rank 0. People who've tried playing with me know what I can do with my character, but most people don't even try it; because of the rank.

Of course; asking "just" the skill bar is not much. You need to ask the player WHY he runs these skills. If he can't explain it; just don't take him. Simple as that, and much more foolproof than rank.

Going to a PvP guild is not an option for everyone; it's not for me, at least. I've got my own guild with real-life friends who don't PvP much. That's what PUGs are for, and they simply don't do it well with rank running the PvP world like money runs the real world.

I find that making mistakes in PvE healing/protting is much more forgiving than in PvP.

In PvE, if your team goes down.. you can always run away and res later. In PvP, that's game over.

PvP healing is a big pain in the ass. I refuse to do it beyond what I needed to do to get enough faction to make the prot template usable to me.

Rank doesn't matter anymore. Thanks to IWAY

Indeed; there are lots of people in your situation, but we are buried between a pile of terrible Whammos soloers (Wa/Mos) and monks that only play monk to be popular (not that it is anymore). There should be a secret sign for people like us to recognise each other.

What?

Why are you even bringing w/mos into this situation or monks. Monks don't get into a good group because they are monks. They get into groups because people have played with them before and they know what they are doing.

And there is a "Secret sign" for people to recognize each other. It's called /rank, but as I've said, it doesn't matter anymore because of IWAY.

Of course; that's why I'm saying "not that it is anymore".

You remember the time monks were very demanded? The supply was not nearly meeting the demand.
Many people started monks at that moment; thinking "I'll never have problems finding groups again!".
Indeed; they were popular. For a time.

Then, people started to realise that there were a lot of terrible monks running around convinced they're "the shiznit" because they still get chosen for groups. Very shortly after, the supply exceeded the demand; which is still the case. Nowadays, monks can regularly be found offering "services" to truckers in rest areas to pay for their rent of a smelly dumpster.

To make the long story short: Monks were very popular for groups, and there weren't enough. Most monks in these times were great, because they were dedicated. Seeing all those "LF Healer monk!" spammed in chat, many people made monks. Groups realised that sometimes, less monks is better than bad monks. Monks are easier to find now.

For the Whammos, I did specify "soloers", did I? I'm still looking for one instance in which having a soloer is good for a PvP group.

For the /rank (shows you have some rank), that's exactly what I'm referring to; but for intelligent players. Something like /brain (shows you have a brain) or /teamplay (shows you work with a group) or /good (shows you're good).

There are many missions and quests that require you to keep a ghost alive, and its not very forgiving when you have to start that mission or quest over.

I've seen some instances in tombs where its 4 teams and the first 2 teams fight until one of the teams only have 1 player left and that 1 player runs away and waits to come back and rez his party when the winning team moves on to the next team to fight.

Why does it feel like hardcore PvP'rs think they are better than PvE'rs in this game? It's always been that way.

Elitism; and it hasn't only been that way for Guild Wars. Look in a history book!

Well...Because usually we are >_> There are trillions of W/Mo's that have no expierence and they think they are the shiznet because they have 15 platemail armor. However, I know quite a few Pve'rs that own my arse. Most of them are my PvP "Pals". You could always think of it, as hardcore Pvp'rs think they are better then Pve'rs because the Pve'rs don't PvP. May be the same type of thought for Pve'rs.

The only people I think I'm better then *Game Wise* are people that don't accept constructive criticism. If I ever see someone running a completely retarded build, I'll message them and say "Hey, you might like this, works very nicely with what you are running".

Some PvP'rs may think they are perceived as superior because of a stupid rank emote. They are shot down everytime they turn off there computer.