Quote:
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Originally Posted by unienaule
Uhm, its broken. Sister Rosette's comment is equivalent to people who thought Ranger Interrupts were fine when they were broken.
/signed |
Thunderclap is broken and now needs to be nerfed.
Zhou Feng
Nexx
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Originally Posted by Kazahana
Winter
Create a level 1-8 Spirit, all Elemental damage is Cold damage instead. This Spirit dies after 30-126 seconds. they have to use lightnign dmg to set it off Winter FTW |
Schorny
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Originally Posted by Hanuman li Tosh
someone told me the spell only ends when you reach <0 energy which is impossible. if that was the case it aint bugged.
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If someone told you so - fine, he is wrong.
It has been spelled out numerous times:
Thunderclap (or for that matter any skill of that kind) should end, when the caster cannot pay the energy cost caused by the action (in case of thunderclap: the knockdown). So a W/E wouldn't be able to use thunderclap reliable - because of his little energy pool. He would run out of energy soon and then thunderclap ends.
This behaviour is nice (allthough we can discuss about the energy needed for the knockdown) - if done right you can break a healing ball with that in a matter of seconds. It may not be the best elite, but it has it's uses. But atm it never ends (unless it runs out or gets removed) - therefore beeing overpowered.
It's like Mantra of Resolve (a maybe better example) - it should end if you get interrupted and cannot pay the cost for it - therefore making you vulnerable for the next interrupt.
This is fine - you get drained by constant interrupts and then - it ends. But now you only need to recast it, wenn it runs out. You just wait until you get enough energy to cast that spell. You may have 0 energy left, but you still cannot be interrupted.
This is wrong. This is bugged. So please stop saying it works as intended or that this 'fix' was good. It is a fact that it is bugged and it is a fact that this bug overpowers it. And it is a fact that it still isn't perfect and still can be countered. But let me take the example from someone else:
Consider a hex that will kill you after 3 seconds (like lightning surge, but much stronger). Just because you can interrupt and remove that hex doesn't make a balanced skill, right?
unienaule
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Schorny
You may have 0 energy left, but you still cannot be interrupted.
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Schorny
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Originally Posted by unienaule
What are you going to be doing with 0 energy that anyone wants to interrupt? Res sig, maybe.
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Sure it is bad to be drained but you skill can cast (after you got energy back) and still can't be interrupted. Imagine a +17 energy weapon set and a -5 energy weapon set. You have +28 energy, cast a 5 energy spell, switch weapon sets and can't be interrupted but still have a nice energy pool.
I said: it is not perfect, but BUGGED and that makes it much stronger than intended.
Perishiko ReLLiK
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Originally Posted by unienaule
What are you going to be doing with 0 energy that anyone wants to interrupt? Res sig, maybe.
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It's not a good thing for ele's, it's good for other reason's...
To those saying don't "fix" this -- You should be hung. It's broken, bugged, not working. It's not an imbalance issue, it's the fact that the skill doesn't work like it says it does. This would be the same case if spinal shivers didn't work right.
toastgodsupreme
So what happens if they fix the description to reflect how it's currently working and leave Thunderclap as is?
Are you all going to b!tch about it still?
Winter is the perfect counter. A good monk will be ripping those hexes off people left and right. Now, you'll argue that the monk has better things to do than go around ripping off hexes, but oh wait, that's kind of our job.
This is just another skill with another perfect counter. Spam some winters and it's over. A team that builds themselves based on Thunderclap is EASILY stopped if another team comes prepared. Go in with cold resistant gear and winter is now doing two things:
1. Preventing Thunderclap
2. Providing you with some extra defense against elemental because you were smart and brought cold resist gear.
Are you all going to b!tch about it still?
Winter is the perfect counter. A good monk will be ripping those hexes off people left and right. Now, you'll argue that the monk has better things to do than go around ripping off hexes, but oh wait, that's kind of our job.
This is just another skill with another perfect counter. Spam some winters and it's over. A team that builds themselves based on Thunderclap is EASILY stopped if another team comes prepared. Go in with cold resistant gear and winter is now doing two things:
1. Preventing Thunderclap
2. Providing you with some extra defense against elemental because you were smart and brought cold resist gear.
Arturo02
all you who say everything is fine and nothing is broken, have you even done any pvp in the last few days?
It is literally unplayable right now.
It is literally unplayable right now.
Mysterial
Quote:
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Originally Posted by toastgodsupreme
So what happens if they fix the description to reflect how it's currently working and leave Thunderclap as is?
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Missy Osiris
Koreans been using the bug almost on every arena battles ive come across
running on 2 rangers/1 warrior/1 elem all using thunder clap ..
running on 2 rangers/1 warrior/1 elem all using thunder clap ..
MSecorsky
Two things are glaringly obvious at this point.
1. There's a counter, Winter. Someone should be carrying this into the arenas until....
2. It's broken. Needs a serious fixing, and quick.
Yes, it can be countered, yes it's broke. I think everyone can agree with these two points?
I just wish Alex or someone would drop in a quick word...
1. There's a counter, Winter. Someone should be carrying this into the arenas until....
2. It's broken. Needs a serious fixing, and quick.
Yes, it can be countered, yes it's broke. I think everyone can agree with these two points?
I just wish Alex or someone would drop in a quick word...
Schorny
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Originally Posted by toastgodsupreme
Winter is the perfect counter.
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2) start thinking
3) never post such crap again
thx
MSecorsky
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Originally Posted by Schorny
1) start reading
2) start thinking 3) never post such crap again thx |
You disagree? Why?
toastgodsupreme
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Schorny
1) start reading
2) start thinking 3) never post such crap again thx |
That Winter isn't a counter to it?
That the fact that it can be countered it moot because the skill doesn't match the description (like that's never happened before)?
The fact that a monk or mesmer can remove the hexes and so there's an alternative to the winter countering it?
Or that you think Winter isn't the perfect counter because someone can just kill your spirit?
What point are you trying to get across here?
I'm still not seeing at being overpowered. Sure we're getting people screaming "Oh shit me! The arenas and tombs and HoH are being overrun with Thunderclap teams!" Ooooooookay. It's the new FOTM. There is a way to fight against them. It's not like this skill in it's current incarnation is unstoppable.
So the skill doesn't match the description. Maybe the skill isn't broken, maybe the description is wrong.
I'd love to see this skill stay as is and the description updated to reflect it's current way of working. Remember, you nerf it for PvP, you nerf it for PvE. I can't wait to team up with warriors who run around in PvE with Thunderclap builds.
MSecorsky
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Originally Posted by toastgodsupreme
So what are you arguing?
That Winter isn't a counter to it? That the fact that it can be countered it moot because the skill doesn't match the description (like that's never happened before)? The fact that a monk or mesmer can remove the hexes and so there's an alternative to the winter countering it? Or that you think Winter isn't the perfect counter because someone can just kill your spirit? What point are you trying to get across here? I'm still not seeing at being overpowered. Sure we're getting people screaming "Oh shit me! The arenas and tombs and HoH are being overrun with Thunderclap teams!" Ooooooookay. It's the new FOTM. There is a way to fight against them. It's not like this skill in it's current incarnation is unstoppable. So the skill doesn't match the description. Maybe the skill isn't broken, maybe the description is wrong. I'd love to see this skill stay as is and the description updated to reflect it's current way of working. Remember, you nerf it for PvP, you nerf it for PvE. I can't wait to team up with warriors who run around in PvE with Thunderclap builds. |
hcl40u
I tested to see if protective bond was the same way but only had a chance to do that once. It did end with 0 energy but I need to test again to make sure.
toastgodsupreme
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Originally Posted by MSecorsky
Although I agree with you in a lot of this, the skill is indeed broken. It used to work according to description, doesn't now, IIRC.
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My bad on that one.
Arcanis the Omnipotent
As part Aero, I'm kinda ashamed people are abusing this.
Yes, Thunderclap is normally pointless, but if the thing is gonna work like a maintained enchantment, it should least end when the energy runs out.
That being said, maybe this should be changed to a type of Maintained Hex. Working in the same way as any Maintained Enchantment.
Suggested Skill Change:
Thunderclap
Elite Hex Spell
As long as this Hex is maintained, whenever target is hit for lighting damage, that target and all nearby enemies are knocked down. Thunderclap ends when you have 0 energy
And this is about the point that Ether Renewal and Ether Prodigy actually become useful for what they were intended to do. Give Elementalists energy to power their attacks. Put on Conjure Lightning, Aura of Restoration, cast Thunderclap and one of the Ethers and you have a working combo. Not as broken as it is now, and not as horrible as it was when it was working right.
Yes, Thunderclap is normally pointless, but if the thing is gonna work like a maintained enchantment, it should least end when the energy runs out.
That being said, maybe this should be changed to a type of Maintained Hex. Working in the same way as any Maintained Enchantment.
Suggested Skill Change:
Thunderclap
Elite Hex Spell
As long as this Hex is maintained, whenever target is hit for lighting damage, that target and all nearby enemies are knocked down. Thunderclap ends when you have 0 energy
And this is about the point that Ether Renewal and Ether Prodigy actually become useful for what they were intended to do. Give Elementalists energy to power their attacks. Put on Conjure Lightning, Aura of Restoration, cast Thunderclap and one of the Ethers and you have a working combo. Not as broken as it is now, and not as horrible as it was when it was working right.
toastgodsupreme
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Arcanis the Omnipotent
As part Aero, I'm kinda ashamed people are abusing this.
Yes, Thunderclap is normally pointless, but if the thing is gonna work like a maintained enchantment, it should least end when the energy runs out. That being said, maybe this should be changed to a type of Maintained Hex. Working in the same way as any Maintained Enchantment. Suggested Skill Change: Thunderclap Elite Hex Spell As long as this Hex is maintained, whenever target is hit for lighting damage, that target and all nearby enemies are knocked down. Thunderclap ends when you have 0 energy And this is about the point that Ether Renewal and Ether Prodigy actually become useful for what they were intended to do. Give Elementalists energy to power their attacks. Put on Conjure Lightning, Aura of Restoration, cast Thunderclap and one of the Ethers and you have a working combo. Not as broken as it is now, and not as horrible as it was when it was working right. |
1. It's like an aoe hex right? Do you pay for the maintainence cost until it has been removed from every single person (or until you cancel it and recast)?
2. What would be the initial cost of casting it? Same as it is now?
BannyD
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Originally Posted by Mysterial
Most likely all skills with conditional endings are broken.
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wheel
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Arcanis the Omnipotent
As part Aero, I'm kinda ashamed people are abusing this.
Yes, Thunderclap is normally pointless, but if the thing is gonna work like a maintained enchantment, it should least end when the energy runs out. That being said, maybe this should be changed to a type of Maintained Hex. Working in the same way as any Maintained Enchantment. Suggested Skill Change: Thunderclap Elite Hex Spell As long as this Hex is maintained, whenever target is hit for lighting damage, that target and all nearby enemies are knocked down. Thunderclap ends when you have 0 energy And this is about the point that Ether Renewal and Ether Prodigy actually become useful for what they were intended to do. Give Elementalists energy to power their attacks. Put on Conjure Lightning, Aura of Restoration, cast Thunderclap and one of the Ethers and you have a working combo. Not as broken as it is now, and not as horrible as it was when it was working right. |
a) have two elites
b) make Thunderclap cost less energy than its currently bugged state
c) both of the above
Seriously, that's the worst idea I've ever heard. A maintained hex that lets you knock people down AoE whenever you want for no more cost than 1/3 energy per second?
Tactical-Dillusions
I don't think i would contribute much here but here goes...
Thunderclap sucks! A ranger just kept myself and a warrior pinned down to the ground for what seemed like eternity. We couldn't even make a step forwards.
Let's hope this and all the other bugs get fixed soon because right now...it aint much fun to play (especially when the players KNOW they are exploiting).
Remember the doppleganger bug and the wave of abuse...and subsequent bans?!
OK, it won't come to that i'm sure but it is in the same context.
doppleganger - xp abuse
thunderclap - faction abuse
Thunderclap sucks! A ranger just kept myself and a warrior pinned down to the ground for what seemed like eternity. We couldn't even make a step forwards.
Let's hope this and all the other bugs get fixed soon because right now...it aint much fun to play (especially when the players KNOW they are exploiting).
Remember the doppleganger bug and the wave of abuse...and subsequent bans?!
OK, it won't come to that i'm sure but it is in the same context.
doppleganger - xp abuse
thunderclap - faction abuse
Aracos79
I love how some people are advocating for not fixing a BUG. It's not like we're talking about an overpowered skill, like Nature's Renewal used to be. We're talking about a skill that does not FUNCTION correctly. Nobody used Thunderclap before it was bugged, and chances are no one will use it after it's fixed. So let's just fix it and we won't have anything to argue about.
Although with Alex saying that ANet is busy getting ready for a convention... it might be a while before we see action on it.
Although with Alex saying that ANet is busy getting ready for a convention... it might be a while before we see action on it.
Carinae
Someone needs to test Malaise and Wither. Do they still end at zero energy? If not, there's your answer: lock that sucker at zero energy.
Also, is there enough time between knockdowns to get off a Grenth's Balance? Or a Vampiric Touch?
Also, is there enough time between knockdowns to get off a Grenth's Balance? Or a Vampiric Touch?
Man With No Name
I'll quote:
Silly me -- there's me thinking they actually test things. This shows up the lack of support for the PvP side IMO. It's nothing more than bug abuse -- although it does seperate the honourable and skilled teams/players from those that are s**t.
Something like this should have a "hotfix" almost instantly -- been broken for almost a week now -- Thursday, October 20 was when the last update hit.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Eonwe (iQ)
Yes, it's broken. All skills that are supposed to end when something occurs, such as thunderclap, spinal shivers, battle rage, and illusion of weakness, etc., are broken at the moment.
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Silly me -- there's me thinking they actually test things. This shows up the lack of support for the PvP side IMO. It's nothing more than bug abuse -- although it does seperate the honourable and skilled teams/players from those that are s**t.
Something like this should have a "hotfix" almost instantly -- been broken for almost a week now -- Thursday, October 20 was when the last update hit.
unienaule
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Originally Posted by toastgodsupreme
I like it. Now some questions for this new improvement:
1. It's like an aoe hex right? Do you pay for the maintainence cost until it has been removed from every single person (or until you cancel it and recast)? 2. What would be the initial cost of casting it? Same as it is now? |
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Originally Posted by Perishiko ReLLiK
Is nobody using their head in this thread? An easy thing to do. Lightning damage weapon on a warrior. Secondary ele, and use thunderclap. Instant destruction of one target... they use adren, not energy for most damage... get a clue.
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Mysterial
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Originally Posted by Man With No Name
Something like this should have a "hotfix" almost instantly -- been broken for almost a week now -- Thursday, October 20 was when the last update hit.
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Aracos79
Now I don't GvG so I can't say myself... but how is this bug potentially impacting the World Championship rankings? Are there guilds out there using this?
glenn_rolfe
A rank 29 Korean guild wiped us with the Thunderclap bug. It's just plain abuse. I can handle having to plan for specific fotm builds like ranger spike, but to have to add in counters for top ranked teams abusing a skill bug is not good enough.
ANet should take action against those guild by reducing their ranking points by twice what they gained from the abuse. Or what would be better is to make all the elites on their accounts locked again. hehe, that would be sweet.
ANet should take action against those guild by reducing their ranking points by twice what they gained from the abuse. Or what would be better is to make all the elites on their accounts locked again. hehe, that would be sweet.
Dead Panda
Just wait til Anet fixes the bug. No need for a "nerf" or anything. It's just a tiny little glitch.
That's all.
That's all.
entropy
we've been waiting a week i think.. that's pretty damn long for such a big bug.
twicky_kid
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Mysterial
I have to agree with this. Arenanet has done a great job on a lot of things for this game... but prompt fixing of bugs and balance issues is not one of them.
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i'd rather them take their time and get it right the first time then fix it and more issues.
not all of the "end" skills are broken. mind wrack still ends 0 energy. not sure about maliese and wither.
personally think that some skills are better w/o the ending machanic working. battle rage is now viable and doesn't really throw the balance of eviscerate off for an elite slot. thunder clap is just completely wrong and needs to be fixed (also spinal shivers). anything that can lock some one down for 15+ seconds doesn't need to exist. other skills that never see play b/c of the "end" machanic might accually see some play and not alter the balance too much.
hope they don't fix battle rage for one reason. if you are a warrior in 8vs8 right now you have 1 option for your elite, eviscerate. all the other elites for warriors never see the light of day. now that is truely unbalanced.
dargon
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Man With No Name
I'll quote:
Silly me -- there's me thinking they actually test things. This shows up the lack of support for the PvP side IMO. It's nothing more than bug abuse -- although it does seperate the honourable and skilled teams/players from those that are s**t. Something like this should have a "hotfix" almost instantly -- been broken for almost a week now -- Thursday, October 20 was when the last update hit. |
Man With No Name
Quote:
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Originally Posted by dargon
Lets see, 400+ skills and you expect that every last one will be completely tested before each update? Gimme a break. As for why it's not fixed, perhaps they are having troubles finding where it's coming from. I work in the software industry, and making a very small change in one part of a program can have an enormous, unanticipated effect elsewhere that can be hard to track down. Now my programs tend to be relatively small, usually intended to process data from one form to another, nothing like the tens or hundreds of thousands of lines of code that make up GW.
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Firstly it shouldn't take almost a week for a fix -- how many people do they have working on the PvP side of Guild Wars -- considering it's sold millions of copies ?? I'm guessing Isaiah Cartwright and erm.... no-one ??
Secondly why would you have to test 400+ skills when making one change to a skill, shouldn't break 10 other unrelated ones. What kind of design is it where changing the energy gain of "Offering of Blood" breaks the damage value of "Eviscerate"
Even if they can't find the fix -- how about a quick roll-back ??
This is only the start.....
How long did it take to get the "Ether Renewal" fix or any other important fix, technical or otherwise -- like the heavy lag in Euro districts.
How about all the skills that are working but completely garbage like "Dwarfen Battle Stance", certain skill trees that are just weak (Fire, Beastmastery...) and some actual new content and game modes for the PvP side.
How about the truely aweful pre-made templates ?? The powerful PvE equipment in PvP (*cough* Lieutenant's Helm *cough*) or the fact that PvP characters still have to grind to unlock skill sets - rather than allowing all access to skills from the get-go.
We've had 1 "Major Update" to the PvP side thus far and half of it was buffs to skills which are still not worth bringing or nerfs to skills. We've only really had 1 great thing happen with the addition of the skill progress bar.
Nightwish
LOL at people that says this skill doesnt need to be fixed :P
Able to be countered does not mean a skill is balanced =/
Once thunderclapped, all your character will be doing is situps and eventually dies.
Compared to other hex elites?
Spiteful - I just stop doing any action if possible or get away from my teamates until the hex get removed.
Ineptitude - If I sees it, i either stop attacking or I remove it if i have hex removal.
Thunderclap - With this skill, I cannot run, I cannot heal myself, I cannot remove it myself cause all i can do is sit up and down!!
Do not bring teamates into equation, because I can do the same to other hex elites. Besides, who knows your teamates are doing situps too?
Able to be countered does not mean a skill is balanced =/
Once thunderclapped, all your character will be doing is situps and eventually dies.
Compared to other hex elites?
Spiteful - I just stop doing any action if possible or get away from my teamates until the hex get removed.
Ineptitude - If I sees it, i either stop attacking or I remove it if i have hex removal.
Thunderclap - With this skill, I cannot run, I cannot heal myself, I cannot remove it myself cause all i can do is sit up and down!!
Do not bring teamates into equation, because I can do the same to other hex elites. Besides, who knows your teamates are doing situps too?
twicky_kid
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Man With No Name
Please spare me the melodramatics -- this bug is painfully obvious and game-breaking. Everyone and their mother is abusing this. Even a minimal amount of testing by a half-blind man with one arm -- would've shown it.
Firstly it shouldn't take almost a week for a fix -- how many people do they have working on the PvP side of Guild Wars -- considering it's sold millions of copies ?? I'm guessing Isaiah Cartwright and erm.... no-one ?? Secondly why would you have to test 400+ skills when making one change to a skill, shouldn't break 10 other unrelated ones. What kind of design is it where changing the energy gain of "Offering of Blood" breaks the damage value of "Eviscerate" Even if they can't find the fix -- how about a quick roll-back ?? This is only the start..... How long did it take to get the "Ether Renewal" fix or any other important fix, technical or otherwise -- like the heavy lag in Euro districts. How about all the skills that are working but completely garbage like "Dwarfen Battle Stance", certain skill trees that are just weak (Fire, Beastmastery...) and some actual new content and game modes for the PvP side. How about the truely aweful pre-made templates ?? The powerful PvE equipment in PvP (*cough* Lieutenant's Helm *cough*) or the fact that PvP characters still have to grind to unlock skill sets - rather than allowing all access to skills from the get-go. We've had 1 "Major Update" to the PvP side thus far and half of it was buffs to skills which are still not worth bringing or nerfs to skills. We've only really had 1 great thing happen with the addition of the skill progress bar. |
pvp is all this game is about and more support than pve ever will get. there where nerfs and buffs that pve wanted but pvp did. in the end pvp won that fight.
ether renewal didn't need to be fixed when the game first started. it wasn't until people abused the hell out of was it fixed. euro's lag is related to the restrictions on bandwith in europe. if you want to complain about that talk to you local government and get it changed.
new content will come with expansion releases. if you don't like it play something else in the mean time its a free game. leave when you want come back when you want.
pve gets the unique items and such b/c they have to earn it. only 1 class on the game can benifit from pve and that's warriors b/c of the helm
i guess skill changes doesn't count as "major update" for pvp. everytime skills change it affects pvp no matter how you want to look at it.
this is to be expected. 6 months after release how many updates have we gotton and how many skill bugs? i think this 1 screw up isn't that bad. it will be fixed. in the mean time do what you always do when skills change, adapt to the new metagame. its business as normal.
fenix
So let me get this straight. You cast thunderclap on an enemy, run up with a Lightning sword or axe (if ur E/W) and start hitting with attacks, and every one of them does KD to the person and nearby allies? And it doesn't stop until it's removed? Or does it have a timer for how long it lasts. Because at the moment it's kinda messed up. Imagine it, 1 E/W against a whole team of 8 people in a healing ball. They all get killed by the 1 guy, without being able to do anything. Sounds like it needs to be fixed so it removes if you run out of energy or whatever it does.
qwe4rty
Couple of Points
-How many lines of code do you reckon GW is?
-How many lines of code do you think you could write without a single mistake, in one go?
-Do you think Arena.net just likes to put fixes out there w/o testing? Obviously something went wrong, yet, if they put another instant fix out there, what else could go wrong?
Obviously on a update that they thought about they had this bug, what about an update that they try to get off right away? How many more bugs do you reckon there will be?
-Whose Job is it, and who therefore knows how to execute their Job?
-No matter how well commented a piece of code is, I still think it would be frustrating to have to search for a segment, translate into english, write algorithms, etc on such a huge program without making another major mistake.
-Last, I think Arena.net knows about the bug? I mean, its kind of painfully obvious. I havent played much this week, and I already knew about it relativally fast.
-How many lines of code do you reckon GW is?
-How many lines of code do you think you could write without a single mistake, in one go?
-Do you think Arena.net just likes to put fixes out there w/o testing? Obviously something went wrong, yet, if they put another instant fix out there, what else could go wrong?
Obviously on a update that they thought about they had this bug, what about an update that they try to get off right away? How many more bugs do you reckon there will be?
-Whose Job is it, and who therefore knows how to execute their Job?
-No matter how well commented a piece of code is, I still think it would be frustrating to have to search for a segment, translate into english, write algorithms, etc on such a huge program without making another major mistake.
-Last, I think Arena.net knows about the bug? I mean, its kind of painfully obvious. I havent played much this week, and I already knew about it relativally fast.
Tactical-Dillusions
Correct Talon. The fast recharge means it can be kept up almost indefinitey...even on a non-primary Elementalist.
I saw just how damaging it can be myself. Someone used it on one of the enemy...they disconnected. Same again happened to the next person that got hexed.
It's seriously annoying some folks and yes, heal-balls are out of the question against TC.
I saw just how damaging it can be myself. Someone used it on one of the enemy...they disconnected. Same again happened to the next person that got hexed.
It's seriously annoying some folks and yes, heal-balls are out of the question against TC.
LifeInfusion
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Mysterial
They won't. We know that this is a bug because it affects all similiar skills. Thunderclap is broken. Spinal Shivers is broken. I haven't confirmed it myself, but reports are that Illusion of Weakness is broken. Most likely all skills with conditional endings are broken. It's pretty clear this is a bug, not a stealth balance change.
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BOTH need to be fixed. It should be similar to Protective Bond in that it ENDS after you run out of energy