Chapter 2, possible problems/disapointments

I've done the whole PVP Tombs thing, and found it less than fun.

I'm currently in a good guild, and we have many great guild events, but that is not the norm for most casual players.

I'm referring to the average, standard player, that may or may not belong to a guild - if they do it's probably just a casual environment. The HoH is filled with FOTW teams and horrible egos. GvG is ok, but the system itself is inherently unbalanced.

Regardless - just what new PVE content will captivate new/existing players? Tombs won't significantly change. GVG won't significantly change. Game balance, items, skills, will all be just more of the same - and if it's not, it will get nerfed enough until it is.

Great idea, only thing would be that some people acsend before level 20. However, to simply change level 20 on a character to "Lord", "Knight", "Druid",... whatever (different for each class) would likely go a ways towards helping the level-addicted recover from their illness.

There is so much tied to level cap of 20 regarding balance that I'd shudder at the amount of coding/testing/bug-hunting that would be required to even do something as foolish as raising the cap.

Here's a thought... if Guild Halls become ultra-modifiable and have their own storage, has anyone else considered the idea of becoming a guild of one?

I would agree that a product designed for the "casual-gamer" that needs retention is bad, because they're never going to commit for long enough to make them profitable. At the same time, they have to remained focused and not panic because some people have got bored.

But I'm curious - is GW at a low-point? Some people have left, but more people join every day.

I think the main problem was that too much time elapsed between release and Sorrow's Furnace. Perhaps this was down to bug-fixing that needed to be attended to over the main game. People that started to play right at the start got bored early - I can understand.

There is certainly a possibility that the GW community could shrink considerably over time if content releases aren't released promptly. It is important that ANet bust their arses over Chapter 2 to get it as good as possible but not delayed too long - I'm sure they're working hard, but they really have to make this work for their own sakes. After that, they'll have to ensure updates are rolled out at regular intervals, regardless of whether or not they're free. I would pay a modest amount of money for an update that was larger than SF but smaller than a chapter release. You could still have the free gameplay updates and the odd "SF".

the message (interview) was that new content (chapters) of the same size and new content of the original game (same price as well) would be coming out twice a year at (ABOUT) 6 month intervals AFTER the first one (chapter 2) came out.

little extras like SF Halloween, Christmas and other things like game engine upgrades will be free

and from what i have read NCsoft is very much aware that chapter 2 content will be the difference between someone saying

*IS THIS ALL WE GET?)*

OR

*OMG LOOK AT WHAT THEY DID THIS TIME GIVE IT TO ME NOW*

i think we will be happily surprisedas they will not cheap out on this one

New chapters every 6 months, with small free updates in between, would be perfect. And personally I think Chapter 2 will be great.

SO LONG AS ARENANET IGNORE THE CASUAL GAMERS! Stand firm in giving loyal GW-players the update we deserve

I am sorry, but I have to disagree. I loathe Tombs, it is full of arrogant gits, leavers and FOTM builds. I have met many people in GW who are predominately PvE, as well as many that love to GvG, but not HoH.

I am sick to death of idiotic rank 6-9 PvPers who come to SF, UW and FoW and absolutely suck, yet tell everyone how easy PvE is.

IMO a plethora of PvP players have a massive ego, and many of them cannot understand fundamental PvE mechanics.

If your idea was implemented, where would that leave people who like to PvE and GvG?

There are people with serious issues in GW, PvE & PvP, but certainly rank is no indication of someone's ability in PvE or even their suitability to join a guild - some insist that you be rank x to join them. Yeah, as if IWAY works in GvF

Sorry Jack.. level 40 is not a good idea. By making level 40 the cap... people have to constantly do missions and fight different enemies to level up to close level 40. People complain about playing game just to reach certain level. I know its not hard to get to level 20 but that take at least 100 hours or more to get there.

And just how is that a bad thing? The game provides players content and a rewards system for 100 hours of play? What should they do with their time instead? Isn't that the point of a MMORPG - to provide content and rewards for time spent?

Not that I think getting to level 20 takes 100 hours - perhaps for a casual 1-2 hours three times a week player that doesn't really care - but it can be done much much faster than that. In fact, getting to level 20 is the easy part. Finishing the game may take that long.

Guild Wars is meant to be different. The rewards beyond 20 are the skills you acquire, not the levels you acquire. There is so much balance tied to the level capping at twenty that to change it would have massive gamewide implications. Get over levels. This isn't the game for level-grinding, thank the gods of play.

There are very few skills to "acquire" after level 20. Is that supposed to make up for lack of real tangible rewards?

It takes longer to acquire NON elite skills than it does elites. In addition, a fair amount of those "elites" are actually not worth the trouble to capture, and most are just slightly modded normal skills.

Capping elites isn't much of a reward for ascending and reaching level 20.

I just hope it's not new content + new item looks, that would suck. I hope for new skills, better items, better armor, not just new contect, since that's just a matter of time to go through, and you're done with the fun, just like you were with SF (though, I still love the farming). Though, the new class(es) seems great, and I'm going to start one as soon as the game starts, probably make something overpowereds of it (unless ANet finally really tried to do something without having to nerf it later on, which I doubt) and own alot in PvP for the first couple of weeks that I can.

Actually i think the problem is far more fundamental.

GW is actually 2 games. The PvP attracts one crowd and the PvE attracts a somewhat different crowd. Personally, I am firmly inside the PvE crowd. i find PvP pointless, since i spend my working days competing in real-life, i want an actual fantasy rpg when i play. Of course, that's just me, and is not meant to disparage the PvP crowd at all.

On the other hand, between my wife and myself we bought three copies of the game, including a collector's edition. So I certainly feel that as the PvE crowd has also paid, we deserve a voice.

Actually, statistically speaking, it is the casual gamers that subsidize the regular gamers. Think about it, which is cheaper to Anet? The people that played for 100 hour to run through the game and then don't play until the next release of new content. Or the guys that logs on 10 hours every day?

Server times cost, so effectively the casual gamers paid $.5 for each hour, while the serious gamer that logged 1000 hours only paid $.05 for each hour.

Getting back to the point of the thread. I am actually fine with the level cap -- provided that they focus on PvE in a different fashion. GIVE US A GREAT STORY! I mean, I don't know about how others feel, but I think a great story along the lines of Baldur's Gate 2 or Knights of the Old Republic 1 will be great!

I love to play online with others to complete quests and missions when there is a gripping story. I think back, and I have to say that I loved the moment when the gates to Lion's Arch opened. It felt like an accomplishment. Unfortunately, that seems to be the high point of the storyline. After that, the story fell apart rather quickly...

I mean, if the White Mantle was evil, why would they accept the refugees? Why would you, as a hero of Ascalon, aid the Shining Blade when the survival of the refugees still depends on the good will of the White Mantle?

Anyways, my point is just that, even for the PvE crowd, we don't need a higher level cap. Give us a great chapter in terms of a great story, and lots of people would want to play it -- only to see what happens.

To me, new content doesn't mean some new area to explore. No, it must be accompanied with a new story. Hopefully a story that grabs the attention and emotions and make you proud of yourself and your team-mates when you reached its climax.

Because the White Mantle weren't evil, they were trying to save the world from the Titans, under the guidance of the Mursaat, until you wrecked everything.

Frankly, I think that both Level and Rank are relatively meaningless in and of themselves. You can get to level 20 long before you finish the PvE portion of the game, and Rank can be earned rather easily via some of the cheaper fame factory builds in the hall. This has all been discussed in previous threads.

The real fun of the PvE portion of the game was/is finishing it. When many of us were done with that, Anet dropped Sorrows Furnace on us, and we had more interesting, non rank-related things to do, including the Titan Quests. The next chapter can and will likely have enough substance and new goodness for us to carry everyone through for another 6-9 months, without regard to leveling or ranking up.

Before we go speculating what could go wrong with Chapter 2, why don't we allow Anet to release it? After all, they've done a pretty stellar job up until now, keeping most of us playing and enjoying the game. The glass is half full, fellow guildies...

Or even fellow GW-players, as I think you meant to say.

Me, I am looking forward to the next chapter. And those who already seem to know for certain that it will hold nothing they care about should probably consider another game. A game cannot cater to the wishes of everyone alike.

You aren't going to level past 20, there's not going to be any better weapon stats or armor stats. There's only going to be "NEW CONTENT" for the PVE players. Now, this doesn't mean that "resource drops" for neater looking ARMOR won't be there, so you won't have to goto the UW or whatever that other one is all the time and it doesn't mean neat kewler looking weapon types won't drop and maybe the gold value will be higher. But, you can forget ELITISM in this game. Ain't gonna be no level 40's, ain't gonna be no better than someone else bs in the new chapter as far as STATS go. This game is about two things. SKILL & INTELLIGENCE thas it. Anyone can get to level 20 easily and anyone can get the necessary weapons/armor that anyone else has in STATS. Now, you might not be able to LOOK as pretty and for that you have to work for (as there should be something to work for after 20), but, you'll still be able to fight in PVP (which is what this game is about really) with equal equipent STATS, and only your SKILLS and INTELLIGENCE will make a difference.

All too many people want this to be like every other mmorpg out there a "materialistic, long tedious level grinding, phat loot pwnage" type of game. Guess what? It ain't ever gonna be that, so, if that's what you are expecting, you might as well leave now and not even buy the expansion. Ain't NEVAH gonna happen with GUILD WARS cause it's about SKILL & INTELLIGENCE, not materialistic things, long tedious level grinding and phat loot". AMEN!

Oh? And what part of the current game is NOT long, tedious grinding?

Grinding for faction? grinding for ecto? Grinding for rares? Grinding for greens? Grinding for fame/rank emotes?

How much skill does it take to run IWAY? Spirit Spam? Ranger Spike? Air Spike? Any other FOTW?

You say it's NOT materialistic? ROFL. Yeah, I guess FoW armor, Gold max dmg GODLY fellblades, black dyes, Eternal Shields...yeah, not materialistic AT ALL.

The game is nothing but materialistic, except it's materialistic over cosmetic items. Vanity over substance.

But if you want to keep repeating the mantra "skill and intelligence" perhaps someday it will come true. It's just not true RIGHT NOW. Hasn't been for ages.

maybe read a book,
visit friends,
play another game until chapter 2

Mimi Miyagi

IF THIS WERE AM MMORPG (WHICH IT IS NOT) YOU WOULD BE CORRECT.

since GW is not an MMORPG it is NOT intended to provide 24/7/365 hold your hand entertainment for you.

it is meant to be played and put aside as you want to and still being a level 20 character in a level 20 world after 3 months off when you return.

not being a level 20 character in a level 40 world where you feel forced to catch up.

SINCE IT WAS STATED THAT THE LEVEL CAP WAS A MAJOR GAME DESIGN DONT EXPECT THEM TO CHANGE IT SOON IF AT ALL

I seriously don't get all the complains about making the level cap higher? I mean whats the positive side of making it higher except to have the game world unbalance. You going to have people who are max level (lets say 40) while people who don't played much as at level 20 or maybe 30. Imagine if you go PvP and your team is lower than the opposite team who is full of level 40 people with max amrors and weapons.

What is it then ? A Third Person Shooter ?

Well, it will actually become one, once they get rid of the character growth which happens to be the only "core" RPG element in this game...

Absolutely, don't wait for something that isn't going to happen.

But imagine if they did raise the level cap. What happens if you got to level 40, or level 60? Would you ask the cap to be raised to level 80? There's always a ceiling somewhere in this kind of game. That's why only having eight skills is great - choosing the right ones makes or breaks your character. Your level has little to do with it.

Skills make the players..... Levels make you have ego!

Higher level will not statsified anyone here in Guild Wars.. heck i seen people asking for 80 or higher cap.

you have spoken truth.

on several sites one of the crys of anguish is *HOW WILL PEOPLE KNOW I AM BETTER WITHOUT THE HIGHER LEVEL NUMBER*?

unfortunately that is not a joke.

i know several whose entire ego rests on being at the top of the level heap just to squash lower level people to satisify their ego.

i should say USED to know as they stopped being any fun for even going out for a cup of coffee let alone dinner

That's only because your brainstem is deeply lodged in the Diabloesque levelling paradigm. For me, it's plenty. Once I hit level 20, hey, no more level issues! It's great! It's more of a challenge to acquire the new skills, with the cost of purchasing them, than it is to level.

here is the official answer.

Excellent point.

And here's where I'll go off on a tangent, and descibe what I'd like to see in Chapter 2:

More "open-ended" gameplay. Give me some choices, with consequences for my actions. How would this work in a CORPG?

Simple. Once you choose a path, your "instances" would change. When you join with other people, the instance would reflect the majorities' "storyline". (Does this make sense?)

WoW is huge because of it's Blizzard fan base. It's simply not fair to compare the new, unique Guild War experience, to a Blizzard Franchise that has not put on one unsucessful product.

That said, I will NEVER, EVER pay a monthly fee for a game. That's just my deal, obviously, but I believe enough people share my views that Guild Wars will do just fine.

I, for one, plan on getting Chapter 2 as soon as it comes out. Then we'll look at the numbers and see how "DOA" it is....

The mantle were not evil in the "i want to destroy the world" idea, they were evil to "us" in that they wished to cast out the old gods. The mursaat wanted to be the gods of "our" world, as they apperantly did with the seer's world. Yes they were blocking the titans but they were doing it in a vile manner, maybe there was no other option but we never find out.
The shining blade were also not evil, they opposed the idea of sacrificing individuals for an unknown cause.

In the end we, the players, were caught between two equally screwed sides and ended up picking the lesser of two evils. That might have been the down fall of the story (not looking at the weird introduction of the mursaat), the opposing sides and factions were extremly confusing and the change was far to rapid from one side to the other. Had they perhaps added more about the mursaat while you were with Dorian then the loose ends might have been tied. As it is now though it is a very loose and open ended story... with a major fraction in its integrity... but I still love it anyway

[Originally Posted by Frank The Tank
I guess that's why WoW is so hugely successful (and still growing) & why GW is at a low point now.

IMHO a MMORPG is not for the casual gamer and should not be designed as such.

There is a lot to fix now before the expansion hits, or it may DOA.



To patently claim that MMORPG should not cater to the casual gamer is a very poor statement to make. Guild Wars is perhaos the only MMORPG that is designed to allow the casual gamer to have an entertaining time playing a game that offers unique and captivating gameplay. For example I have played the game for 5 months, have not even reached 200 hours playing. I play when I feel like it, complete missions, enjoy the story and partiicpating in anything my guild needs help in. I am sorry if unlike the "elite" I don't sit in front of my computer 18 hours a day just to get that Fissure armor, or become filthy rich with pretend money. Casual players should not be punished for not putting in 1000 hours of gamelplay a month. Some of us live in the real world with jobs, kids, and mortgages. It may be a strange concept to some of you but we play just to have a good time and be entertained. GW is one of the few games that does cater to us casual gamers. If that is a problem to some of you... go AFK step outside your dark, little room and experience the real world for a little bit. Oh, and take a shower!

Funny - ANet's own website claims it's a MMORPG. It's marketed as a MMORPG without monthly fees. It PLAYS like a MMORPG but simply instanced - instanced to reduce bandwidth and server costs.

You MEAN it's *not* WoW.

People keep countering with "level cap" arguments - yet not once in this thread did I say anything about making the level limit 40. I simply countered someone's argument that as a player, you need some sort of feeling of progression, or the game will die. Changing the level limit is JUST ONE METHOD. I didn't say it was the RIGHT one.

I don't know how many times I need to repeat myself - but if you look at the state of the game AS IT IS RIGHT NOW - tell me it's not "grind". Tell me that the vast majority of players are not involved in some aspect of farming/grind. That the "story" became almost unimportant at this point. The only thing people care about is greed. So, grind grind grind.

There is ample evidence all over the game how it's currently playing out. The PLAYERS have devolved the game into grind - whether you *think* it should be all about "skill and intelligence" or not. The game *is* grind.

My ultimate question *AGAIN* is - what is ANet and the developers going to do to *FIX* what GW has become?

And stop with the whole "the game was intended to last only a month blah blah blah" because quite frankly, you're wrong. No REAL game developer designs a game expecting a player to play it for a month and quit, and move onto something else unless they are hacks. Are the deves at ANet hacks? If that was the case - why the holloween event? why the world championships? Why the updates? Why SF? Why the new "titan" quests added (that hardly anyone does because they lack "phat lewt")? Because they don't want you to go start playing WoW, and forget about GW. THEY want your brand loyalty. They want to give you NO excuse to find GW boring, and get entertained some other way. If that WAS their intent, their marketing weasels, their brand managers, developers, designers, their CEO, should all be fired and on the cover of whatever professional game design magazine they subscribe to as posterchildren on how NOT to make a game. To suggest otherwise is spoken obviously by someone that has never run a company before, or taken even a basic business economics course. it is ESPECIALLY TRUE for MMORPGs. They are, by nature, designed to capture and hold your loyalty. If they fail to do so, then they fail period. And no matter how you slice it, GW *is* an MMORPG. They even say so.

Recognize the problems GW has - and tell me what is going to compel their core audience (current owners of GW) to buy the next chapter? Getting another profession or two to grind through the wilds again? A couple new skills for existing professions that are nerfed just enough to act no more or no less powerful than existing ones? New armor that has no better stats (for fear of game balance) but *look* different? Same thing for weapons, shields, wands, staffs, scrolls, etc?

The ONLY thing as it stands right now is "a whole new story arc and new missions to get to the end of the chapter, setting up for the next chapter".

Let's put it this way:

Chapter two will (apparently) feature:

Two (a guess) new professions...does this mean they have to go through the whole presearing crap again? run though the wilds again? And that's going to be fun...how? I've done it with six different characters, do you think it got a bit boring after...I dunno...the third time around? If you haven't done all six professions - are adding two more going to help?

Additional skills for existing professions? In order to maintain game balance they will be just as nerfed as existing skills. Simply more of the same, IMO. If they care about game balance (and with all the nerfing, apparently it's priority #1) then the new skills can't be any more powerful than existng ones. How many different skills do you need to heal that aren't any more effective than existing ones? Or apply blind? or boost HPs? Or cause Degen? Remember, even the new characters - for balance considerations - can't be any more or less powerful than any other profession.

New armor, weapons, upgrades, artwork, textures, designs - yet (again) in the interest of balance, are not any stronger or different from existing ones? A max dmg bow will always be 15-28? Then it's no longer "new" it's just "different". And how is that compelling? Even more different armor sets that provide no different stats than exisitng ones? Cosmetic change only.

More "phat lewt"? See above. If it's not going to be fundamentally different from what I have now - why bother? Cosmetic again.

So, now we get to the new "missions". Since you're already level 20, the XP doesn't matter. The additional skill points for bonuses shouldn't be that big of an attraction - after all, you should have plenty of skill points already, as by the time you've gone trough chapter one, you've gotten enough skill points to buy everything and cap everything in your profession. The drops won't be much different from what you can get in any mission past ascention, so that's not a big draw. New elites to cap? again, just how many ways to cause a deep wound do you need? And once you cap them - then what? Your skill bar (apparently) isn't going to be different (again, balance). Right now, as I said, the vast majority of the people aren't playing the story - they are grinding themselves in SF, UW, FoW, Prophet's Path.

So that only leaves the story - and as I said, the playres right now aren't worried about the story, they are worried about grind. It's been that way for months. Going though with a different character is simply just a way to get them to the higher areas to grind some more. That's why runners are so popular.

AGAIN, AGAIN, AGAIN, it doesn't matter what you THINK the game was intended to be, it is what it IS now - a grind. And given what seems to be the prevailing thought around here, chapter 2 isn't going to FIX this fundamental problem, since there isn't a compelling reason to buy it except to rush through the story so NEW farming/grinding areas can be discovered. Once you've seen the end of the movie, all you have left is the box of bon bons - and those bon bons better be good.

It is what it IS. And I hope ANet finds a way to make it NOT what it currently is, that chapter 2 brings MORE.

Or GW is going to die.

And note I provided not ONE single argument for or against raising the level cap limit. That is NOT the point of this post, so quit bringing it up when you're posting a counter argument.

My posts are too long, people simply will skim over them and say "OMG NO LVL 40 N00B STFU K THX BY".

But of course, at this point I could care less. My comments are directed at ANet anyway, really.

considering i quoted from the GW site itself and they go out of their way NOT to market it as an MMORPG either you are reading uninformed reviews or are simply wrong.

again a direct quote from Arenanet GW site

tell me how that is marketing it as an MMORPG



EDIT FOR THE LINK GAME DETAILS

http://www.guildwars.com/faq/default.html#details

Whatever they do I hope they add a Dueling Arena Where you could place bets and stake stuff.

Mimi, just go play a different game. This clearly isnt the game meant for you. You're trying to change a game that's meant for a different audience.

Oh and I have never grinded for faction. I just play PVP because I like playing it, and the faction comes fast and furious because I'm not playing PVP JUST for the faction. So don't tell me that there's grind in every aspect of the game. Grind only comes when you're FORCED to do something over and over. Much of the grind in GW is gone now, thanks to improvements.

I can just imagine the fight fixes, where people "take a dive"

I have a suggestion for you, quit now while you're ahead and don't come back. I know plenty of people that don't play it the way you describe, that actually do go through the story with each and every character.

I personally have yet to farm for anything in this game, and I've been playing since the day before release, with maybe a total of 3 weeks of not having played it. I personally think you're grasping at straws as for what they can do with chapter 2 in regards to balance and professions, with introducing new items, etc., but the only way you'll find out is to wait and purchase it now won't you.

What annoys me about people like Mimi is that whenever they don't like a game they assume others don't and therefore the game will die. Basically it's "I dont like this game so it will fail!"

Last time I checked, I'm allowed to express my OPINION, after all, that's what message boards are for, eh? It's also backed up with plenty of self observed evidence, SINCE I HAVE PLAYED THROUGH THE GAME WITH EVERY CHARACTER - a point you failed to catch.

The most populated areas in the game are (in no particular order):

Tombs
Arenas
TOA/UW/FOW
War Camp/Footprint/SF

And common farming areas outside of Augury Rock and Ember Light Camp.

Oh, and Beacon's Perch - all filled with folks begging for runners to Droknar's.

So, just what part of "playing the story" do these areas encompass? Zero?

EDIT - I forgot LA - the place to sell all of your grind goodies.

No, it doesn't. They have already said you would be able to create a PvE character at level 20, and just play the chapter 2 stuff, or start a character from scratch. It's up to you.

Well, gee, since I have played over 1,000 hours and have purchased three (yes three) copies of the game, I'd say you were a tad off in your assesment of how I felt about it.