Chapter 2, possible problems/disapointments

alot of times i do wish it was smaller

Soooo....what part of "solid character progression" encompasses reaching lvl 20, ascending, and having the max dmg anything within a month (being generous here)?

Isn't ALL games nothing more than "mashing buttons" using the same tactics for hours and hours on end? Rote motor memory of skills?

And how are GW's quests "dynamic"? Do they change every time you load a mission? If you complete a mission, and run it with another party, is it some how different? The monsters move in unpredictable ways? Different monsters than the ones that were there last time?

A story is only "interesting and deep" the first time you read it. After that, it's repetition.

They've also specifically said that there will be only certain areas were characters from Chapter 1 and Chapter 2 can interact, and that each chapter in and of itself will be equal in content to the original game release and that you don't need to buy each on, you can buy which ever one you want. I can't say anything beyond what I've said, infer what you will.

There's nothing saying that at the same time they release Chapter 2 that new items are added into Chapter 1 that are equivalent to Chapter 2 items, thereby making your above point moot.

pvp will most likely have the interaction of chapter 1 and 2. i can imagine 400 more skills with this next chapter. forget balance it would be a totally new game. it would completely break the mold for all of the builds with the current skills.

looking forward to it.

Here is something that was originally discussed as being part of the original release, and for reasons unknown it didn't make it in. We are trying to get them to put this type of quest into Chapter 2, that would make it more enjoyable to play the content more than once.

Am I worried? No, if the game is more of the same I shall play another...simple as that.

I didn't get a chance to read all the posts, but I agree alot with Mimi. You'all should face up to reality that they are not going to change the gameplay that much. If you don't enjoy the PvE now, you probably won't after a couple of weeks of chapter 2 because you will be busting you butts rushing through it to get all the new items.

I remember a day when everyone boasted the level 20 cap saying how we're sick and tired of the level grind. I remember when the storyline actually meant something..... ah those were the days. The games isn't about accumulation?...it's everything about accumulation.

So lets all take bets on how long that's going to last when chap2 comes out.

For myself I do not have 5 blinged out characters (or however many they have..see I don't even know). Do I need to worry about chapter 2? No

i'm kinda worried the asasain will end up being the "touch necro" same old poisons nut with no casting range

I find the entire 'no level grind' concept to be stupid. If I like playing a game then it's not a grind, if I don't then it's not a grind because I'm not playing it. The GWars team eliminated a 'problem' that didn't exist, IMO. Now, for people who can only play a couple of hours a week it is probably nice that they end up with characters just as powerful as someone who plays hours per day, but is it all that smart to design your game around the people who play it the least? If so, why not make the level cap at 5 so that people who play a couple of hours per month can compete? Why not make the cap at level 1 so someone who only plays once can compete?

As to those who argue that more levels just give a sense of accomplishment, well, that's the whole point of a game. Hell, it's the point of most any voluntary activity. Having my character grow gives a feeling of accomplishment, having my character remain unchanging week after week gives a feeling of boredom. Given a choice between a false sense of accomplishment (and every sense of accomplishment in life is false: you are going to die) and a real feeling of boredom, I'll take the first every time.

And to the couple of people who keep harping on 'Gwars is about brains and skill', is it -really- that hard for you? Because I just didn't find it to require any more brains or skill than any other game I play. -Every- RPG game I play has various character/skill/spell combos to figure out, pretending that this is some unique GWars thing, or that the GWars system is particularly complex when it isn't, is just silly.

And as far as my comment about Chapter 2 just being 'for fun', I thought the implication was clear enough but let me spell it out for those that missed it: Chapter 2 will be only eye-candy if ANet keeps its word about it not being required. The items will be the same, the creatures will be the same, the skills will be the same, only the names and graphics will change (or maybe the graphics won't change, more devourers anyone? *smirk*). A difference that makes no difference is no difference, and the idea of me paying for such a lack of difference I find ludicrous.

Or maybe ANet won't keep their word and Chapter 2 will have unique things, like maybe in Chapter 2 they'll implement all the things players have been asking for the past 6 months but every single patch has ignored (trading system, better drops, more gold per kill, etc.). In which case there would be good reasons for buying Chapter 2, unless you look upon such a breach of trust as a reason -not- to buy it.

So, near as I can tell ANet has backed themselves into a corner with a philosophy that doesn't allow their game to expand, yet it -has- to expand to cover the cost of maintaining it. So they'll offer pseudo-expansions that don't really expand much of anything. I'm sure quite a few people will buy Chapter 2, but I'm betting a lot fewer than would if it actually offered a chance of character progression. And how many will buy Chapter 3 when they realize just how little they got with Chapter 2?

ok, i was in the middle of a reply to this but got interrupted by a full day's work...

err... if sacrificing helpless people to empower a magical device, keeping the general populace in a deception, and holding the populace under a religious oppression is not evil, I am not quite sure what is.

the mursaats were keeping the komalie sealed because THEY would be destroyed if it opened. the White Mantle came to power because they were the pawns of the mursaats. to keep that power, they were quite willing to continue serving the mursaat by deceive their own people, picking out some of them and killing them as a blood sacrifice...

i don't know about you, but that sure sounds evil to me...

actually, i think alot of us PvE people are turned off by the "I am better than you" attitude of the PvP people.

case in point: wanting to kill some time, I finally decided to PvP in the competitive arena with my wa/mo. (in case you're groaning, no, i am not taking mending or healing prayers, this is an axe/smite build).

i took the simple strategy of letting the other warrior come to me (they try to kill our monk). my goal is actually simple: protect the monk and kill the incoming melee guys. once we outnumber the other guys, we can concentrate on the other guys one at a time.

it worked fairly well - we won a couple in a row. then the typical PvP stuff started happening with my own team-mates:
"yeah, we totally pwned those n00bs"
"ha lozers"
"we rule"
etc.

since i really dislike this kind of thing, after another victory (but before another match started), i simply tell the rest of the team that i have to go.

really, it may surprise people, but some of us play this game to have fun, not to watch immature kids "pwning" each other.

actually they did do that. you can create lvl20 characters straight off the bat. there is your equivalent of the level 1.

btw, Vorlin, if you're right, then GW design team is even smarter than I thought. The people that subsidize the game is actually the casual gamers. Think about it -- if you're selling flat fee on accounts and spending money to maintain the server farms -- who gives you more profit? The guys that plays once in a blue moon or the guys that plays every hour of the day.

So perhaps your're right -- they intentionally designed the game around casual gamers.

This is another point that I agree with. Yes Anet has painted themselves into a corner. To be honest -- perfectly balanced games are BORING. The best games are slightly imbalanced in a way that entertains the players. I have no idea why Anet seems so obsessed with game balance.

Yes, it's important, but it's a GAME -- let people play the way they want.

Finally, while I know that many people on the forum don't care for the story, I am of the opinion that many people (well at least myself) WOULD be willing to spend money on buying a good story. Even if there aren't any additional levels to be had.

ok, i've rambled too many times in this thread...

Has been for me, I made 20 in less than a month. Found the necessary items to get a max dmg weapon or two with all the trimmings (low cost since it doesn't LOOK pretty), the same armor stats as anyone wearing fissure. I see no grind, see no materialism, nor does phat loot even enter the equation.

You DON'T NEED FISSURE ARMOR to be the same as anyone else in STATS. You DON'T NEED A FELLBLADE or CHAOS AXE or GHASTLY BOW (or whatever it is called) to have a weapon with the same stats and same effectiveness as any of those mentioned above.

If it's materialistic YOU made it so, if it's a level grind, YOU just want something TOO DARN EASY, (cause in a month of casual play anyone should be level 20 with any brains). And as far as phatt loot goes, no one "NEEDS" phat loot, it's just something you go after if you want the fissure armor. That fissure armor once again is no better, not one iota better than 1500gp armor in stats. So, you're just quite mistaken about it being a materialistic game. People make it so, because it's not.

I can stand toe to toe with anyone in fissure armor wielding some pretty fellblade or chaos axe or scykle (sp) or any weapon for that matter.

It's SKILL and INTELLIGENCE as I said and if you had any intelligence you would see that.

Lol Who are you preaching to Mimi Miyagi? Nobody is listening to you, especially the "casual" players. This is a great "casual player" game and guess what? Casual players makeup the majority of the fanbase for most all the mmorpgs/mmogs except for maybe (Shadowbane which was a failure because they tried to cater to the "hardcore" which you represent yourself to be).

GW's has reached the million sales mark, and still "growing" not deminishing. Sure, some people will play the content and leave, people in most mmorpgs only get to play "some" of the content and leave. One thing about GW's you can definitely see ALL the content as a "casual player". It's what drives the game and gets NEW BLOOD.

We don't care if you or a bunch of "hardcore players" leave. There will still be 100's of thousands of "casual players" that will still remain.

So, if you're wanting materialism, elitism, phatt loot and I'd have to say a much much harder and LONGER level grind, go play any other mmorpg out there. Whether you want to believe it or not, this is not your "standard" mmorpg, it has elements, but, there's no "raiding", or uber elite gear to be had that anyone else can't have in this game with a little time.

I can take a blue collectors item(s) and make the same thing out of them some gold million credit item is going for. Wow, it won't be gold weapon, but, Wow it sure hits like one.

You're just in the wrong game, as I see a few others are. You expected a FREE mmorpg lol and that ain't gonna happen.

I too will be one of the first inline to buy the 2nd chapter. If you're not here, oh well, more for me. But, your soapbox isn't doing a bit of good. Those that are going to leave are going to leave of their own accord and not yours. And also you're not a Guru and you're not a prophet, so, you cannot declare whether GW's will rise or decline. All mmorpgs decline over time, so that's pretty generalized I can even say that, wow I'm a GURU! lol

But, when you get down to FREE vs $15 a month for even more level grinding, more elitism (look what i got you ain't got), more crap, I'll stick to FREE any day.

And personally after having played those elitist mmorpgs, there is no level grind in this game whatsoever. It is so easy to level and it's so easy to get the armor and weapons to compete with anyone else in the arena, which leaves SKILL & INTELLIGENCE as most important in this game than materialism or elitism. I love that about this game.

I really really really hate to say this because it's so cliche but....

Go play WoW. If you want the traditional MMO with the higher level caps, uber items, grind, etc etc, go play that. It makes no sense complaining about GW having none of those things WHEN YOU KNEW WHAT YOU WERE GETTING WHEN YOU BOUGHT THE GAME.

It's like buying apple pie and you complaining that there's apples in it. I really don't understand you people.

Like I said, the White Mantle weren't evil. They were being used. But, really, if the Mursaat were'nt getting rid of the chosen, the flameseeker prophecies would have been completed earlier, and the world would have been pretty much destroyed by the Titans and the Lich King. They were trying to stop that. Their methods were just brutal, very brutal, and they were trying to save themselves, but in doing so they are saving the world. Thats not to say they weren't evil, but the White Mantle weren't.

Makes you wonder about the Seer, and who was controlling the Seer. Was the seer being controlled by the Lich King, or was the Seer just trying to get you to be a genocidal manic and wipe out the Mursaat? Either way, you went along with it. The Mursaat were evil, but the Seer was genocidal, the Shining Blade didn't know what they were doing, and for the most part, you were just being used. The story was a bit better than I think most people saw, but the way the missions are divided, and the fact that theres big gaps between missions sometimes because you can't find a group, the story gets a bit diluted.

If the GWars team did intentionally design the game to attract an audience of people who don't play much, that would be penny-wise and pound-foolish. Blizzard proved this with BNet: the more people who played on BNet, the more new people tended to come to BNet to play, which meant automatic sky-high sales on any Blizzard product that utilized it.

Let me plug in some fake numbers to make the point. If on the day Chapter 2 is release, which situation do you think will result in more sales for it:

1. There are 200,000 people playing GWars daily.

2. There are 50,000 people playing GWars daily.

3. There are 10,000 people playing GWars daily.

4. There are 1,000 people playing GWars daily.

I'd say that's an easy call.

When it comes to games with a persistent enviroment the key to success is grabbing a core player base and keeping them hooked, that core will act as recruits for others to keep your base growing. But you have to maintain a certain minium core size, otherwise interest dies out. That's why the hardcore GWars players are so important, not because of their 'leet attitude (if they have one ) but because they are the ones that are spreading the GWars fever.

BS I'm a casual player and I spread just as much good word about GW's as any handful of hardcore players too. That's just total BS.

There are far far far more casual players playing this game and will continue to play this game than there are hardcore players.

You even present yourself and show your elitism by saying "hardcore" rules whether a mmog lasts or doesn't! LOL That's total rediculous and obsurd.

And the numbers are more like this

1. 1,000,000+

2 1,000,500

3 1,001,000

4 1,001,500

5 1,002,000

See how easy it is to turn it around. For every 1 person that leaves GW's 2 more are taking their place. This game is still being bought as a christmas present today. Kids are turning of age where their parents will let them play a game like this on a "daily" basis.

So, sorry hardcore man, but, you elitiest just don't rule the coop in this mmog, and as was stated, might as well just pack up and goto WOW, this one isn't changing anytime soon.

Good God, you're so fired up to confront elitists that you misread my post in every way possible. And this isn't the first time in this thread you've made that mistake in your replies. Get some therapy, or at least find the person you are -really- pissed at and flame them, instead of insulting innocent bystanders.

1. I never said the hardcore players are greater in number, of course they aren't, no game has -ever- had a majority of hardcore players.

2. You are misreading what I meant by hardcore, I mean people who play GWars a lot (daily would be a good example). I don't mean elitists, you don't have to be a min-maxer to play a lot. I mean the dedicated core of Gwars players that stick with the game month after month, the 'hard' core in the sense of persistence.

3. Noting that the number of people in the core group of any MMORPG is a huge factor in its continued success doesn't mean these players are 'better' than other players. But they are definitely what keeps the fires burning, I've seen enough Muds come and go to know that from personal experience.

4. You totally misunderstood my use of numbers so badly that I don't think you even read what I wrote in that area. Go back and read it again.

5. I'm neither a hardcore GWars player nor an elitist, so much for your summation of me.

6. Finally, if you are truly a casual player then your spreading the word isn't likely to matter much. What are you telling people? That GWars is great, look at me, it is so compelling a game that I spend a bit of time on it now and then! I'm sure that made all kinds of people drop what they were doing and go out and purchase it. *laugh*

Yea I keep seeing big advertisements bragging about thier numbers, though I would wonder does that mean current players or total players. Are they counting the ones that have since stopped? Seems to me advertising the numbers is a poor way to promote the game. What matters to me is if its fun.

Everyone at one time loved the level cap, that is what cracks me up the most. I don't think packing it up is a good way to put it. There is nothing wrong with playing another game if you've already ran the couse of GW though. As the devs have stated it's the sort of game you can come back to at any time...oh wait that was one of the reasons for a level cap.

The fact that you aren't spending 3 years to accomplish those things for starters. Granted Guild Wars PvE is pretty damn awful, no two ways about it. People still don't want to admit that the PvE game was only an afterthought and that GW will always be centered around PvP.

Get seven people together, and try an unrated match against one of the top 20 guilds, hell the top 100, I guarentee that button mashing and regurgitating tatics won't get you anywhere.

I never said that Guild Wars exhibited any or all of these qualities that makes a good game. I said that these are the qualities that MMORPGs in general should have, and are qualities that ignored in favor of grind so that players can have their smug feeling of "accomplishment" and the companies can continuely collect monthly fees. Reading comprehension ftl.

note a simple provable fact.

sales charting companies are still reporting verg good sales of GUILDWARS.

the asian market will be opened soon.

in spite of all the extremests being shaken out of the game so far with more to come.

THE HARDCORE UAS PVP
THE HARDCORE GRINDING LEVELMONKEY
THE HARDCORE FARMER/BOT

and the crys of doom by june without UAS/MORE LEVELS/PHAT LOOT the game is still selling to people who have heard good things about it being for the CASUAL gamer.

FINALLY I SUBMIT THAT THE 200+ DISTRICTS FOR HALLOWEEN SHOW INTEREST IS STILL HIGH BUT SIMPLY WAITING (CASUALLY) FOR THE NEXT CHAPTER.

this is not for the person who brags about burning through the game in a week than whines that there is nothing to do.

it is for the VAST majority of people who play several hours a WEEK not the 10+ hour a DAY gameplayer.

this game is for us small folks that have a real life as well as games.

sales of chapter 2,3,4 will be the deciding factor and not anything (including mine) posted on a small forum representing a fraction of the small fraction that even visit any board.

find a game you enjoy and post on their game boards instead of simply complaining

Something just occurred to me ...

If we have two accounts, therefore two CD keys ... are we going to have to buy one copy of the expansion for EACh account??

*panics*

indeed you will

which means it will have to be very good.

you can get one to test the waters and add the second later

Any clues about the part 2 european issuing?

TY

they said they were working on a same time release.

I never said GWars was failing, I said that the more people who play at any given time the more likely you'll be to have a continually growing playerbase, and that -if- the number of people who play daily falls below a certain limit that this will tend to work the opposite way, resulting in a continually shrinking playerbase. I made this argument to refute the idea that it would be smart for ANet to have designed GWars to be played only a little bit, not to indicate that GWars is failing.

GWars has gotten off to a very nice start, success-wise. They clearly have produced a product that has broad appeal. I only see two problems for them:

1. They are way too obsessed with farmers and bots. Every single patch has some tweak designed to remove one or both of these, the trouble is it also negatively impacts everyone else who uses the same skill/spell/technique that is targetted. The amount of time they've spent coding on these two non-issues (and they are non-issues, the only people who freak out over either are those who've taken a 'moral' position on the issue) and the number of players they've alienated by such nerfing could have been spent implementing things players have been asking for nearly universally for months and making players happier. Since this fixation has gone on for months now I don't have much hope of it ending, clearly someone high in management has a bee in their bonnet about this issue and can't think of anything else.

2. They've no way to expand in a meaningful way due to their inflexibility in regards to the level 20 cap. I gave an example earlier in this thread about a way that they could keep their cap per -chapter-, thus giving them a way to have a cap and offer endlessly expanding content. Noone who wanted to level higher than a given cap would ever need to (they just stick to whatever chapter fits their level cap desire), yet anyone who wanted to could do so, both groups get exactly what they want. Obviously any solution that appeals to a greater number of players is a better solution than one that appeals to fewer.

That is irrellevant. Even if the game is tailored to casual players, casual players have a less likely chance of being online at the same time for extended periods of time due to the fact that they are casual players. The casual player is more likely to interact regularly with a "hard core" player due to the amount of time invested daily/weekly in the game. Being a "casual player" and promoting the game doesn't do a whole lot anyway. You get people interested in playing the game with you, not just solo. So, if you arent available to play with, then you just turn them away from the game just as quickly as they come in. I have seen similar instances with new people comming into the game while recruiting, where they simply stop logging in after the first 2 weeks. I have seen over 30 instances like this myself.

Your "numbers" are also irrelevant as total copies sold does not equate directly to the number of people logging in daily in each of "prime time" 4-8 hour blocks by timezone. If the people are not there to play with, then people stop playing. Its quite easy to observe and its a self feeding process. There is a bare minimum required to sustain a game like this and fortunatly i don't think its reached that point yet. Its probably not even halfway there yet, but it is distinctly more vaccant than it was durring the summer on any day of the week at just about any hour of the day. If you lose the players that play the most, its not that hard to lose the players that play the least.

not to be facetious (well much) that leaves you with a great middle ground.

as i said halloween shows that while people may be doing other things they are not *gone* in the permanent form of the word for many.

we will see in a few months

ANet didn't design GW to be played by just a few people or just a little bit a day. It goes without saying that that'd be stupid.

They did design GW to be a game in which the time you spend playing doesn't matter much in PvP, however. That's what the "a competitive game for casual gamers" thing is all about. It's a really simple concept to understand, and it explains why they've added a level cap that's ridiculously easy to achieve.

But does that negatively affect the people who play it the most in any way?

You're assuming that the people who play a lot are somehow bothered by the fact that others can reach the level cap and compete with them - I don't see any logic in that.

Sure, some people play the game a lot (because they like it - but not everyone who likes the game can play it a lot, mind you) and don't want to risk having a casual player walking over their corpse in PvP... so, to them, the idea of a low level cap might seem stupid ("WTF? I play 24/7 and have less hitpoints than that guy? This game blows!"), but I don't think that can be said about most of the "hardcore" (if you will) players, because a) it's not really mature reasoning and b) there are still some things that a hardcore player can chase after in GW (just not extra levels or other types of competitive advantages over people who play less).

...And, even if these "I am hardcore and I do not want you to be able to compete with me!" people are a majority, they have about a hundred thousand bazillion MMO's to choose from, and I'm sure ANet wouldn't mind too much if they took their business elsewhere.

Marketing your game towards people who play only a little might sound stupid at first glance, but marketing it towards people who play a lot and don't want the game to be accessible/competitive for newcomers is even more stupid (specially since this is a one-time-purchase game, so they only earn money when someone who previously didn't play is first attracted to the game - after that, the more you play, the more you're lowering their profit margin).

It might seem like fanboy reasoning at first to say that people who play a lot and don't want others to be competitive should go play something else (It sounds like I'm here shouting "This is my casual gamer game! If you want to change it go play something else!") but there is logic to it. GW was designed to be different from most MMOs out there (including in the grinding aspect) because if it was just another UO clone, it would have to compete with all these other games.... in which case GW's only *real* advantage (which makes it capable of stealing market share from, say, WoW) would be, IMHO, that GW is cheaper. But of course, if you were to market your game towards hardcore players, you wouldn't charge a one-time fee... you'd get people hooked and charge them monthly.

This is the point that sometimes I think some people miss. People who want more grinding in GW strike me as people who are only playing GW as opposed to any other game because GW is cheaper. Well, guess what - if it was a grind-focused game, it wouldn't be cheaper, it'd be monthly-fee-based just like the rest... because in this case, ANet would know they would profit more from milking your grinder ass for 15 bucks every month than from charging a one-time-fee from people who would be too intimidated by how everyone is 238 levels ahead of them to even consider paying for the game once.

Just look at Richard Garriot's new MMO that's currently in development. I have no idea how they plan on selling that thing. It's *so* generic, I'd bet my right arm that it's not going to draw more than 100 people away from other games (And people who aren't currently playing any other MMO games will probably not even hear about it. They'll hear about stuff their friends are playing and go play that instead, or give GW a try since it's a one-time-purchase and since it has an easier "learning curve").

on the first part you would be surprised at the amount of importance the *i am better than you by definition of a higher level number*

with GUILDWARS these people are truly suffering the anguish of *BEING SURROUNDED BY EQUALS* without a number to prove their inate superiority.

MOST IMPORTANT

people are not counting on people who have left for now but feel that they really got their moneys worth of fun as return customers for chapter 2.

the person who got ONLY 400 hours of fun and said bye for now i got more for my money than i expected is a good prospect for chapter 2

he/she will see ads for new/improved chapter 2 and buy it because they got good value the first time with chapter 1.

people with 800-1200 hours yelling they were robbed dont make sense to me.

FABLE cost 50 bucks and reviews give it 14-15 hours and people say it was fun and get something else.

800 hours of GW *I WAS ROBBED*

This is statement that I strongly disagree. If GW is so geared around PvP, and PvE is only an after-thought, why is there so much time and effort spent on PvE?

--> Sorrow's Furnace affects the PvE far more than the PvP
--> Halloween Event is more PvE than PvP
--> The nerfing of the loot drops and the change to the chests affects the PvE far more than the PvP

In fact, far less development effort is required if all Anet wants to do is to put out a PvP game -- all they need to design are the arenas and the skills. In fact, you probably get more arenas and more skills if that was the case. I don't believe that PvE was an "after-thought" nor do I believe that GW was ever centered around PvP only.

Quake 3 Arena was a pure PvP game -- it proves that there is a market for such games. If GW was such a PvP-centric game, it'd be more like Quake 3 than its current form.

In fact, one of the good / bad with GW is that fact that it sort of has a dual-personality -- and Anet has constantly been trying to balance the two sides to satisfy both player basis. There is nothing wrong with this, and sometimes the best designs are arrived at through the tension of the forces.

Some people seem to make assumptions about what *I* think about GW, so I'll clue you in.

First, I *hate* the fact that players grind over cosmetic items. I find it pointless, and a waste of time. Bragging about owning FoW armor doesn't impress me at all. Neither does owning a gold "godly" Fellblade, or any other popular item (which seems to change week to week). The game is (IMO) nothing more than a fashion show. I've stated this (in other threads) on numerous occasions. But since everyone has a right to play the game the way they see fit, it's their perogative. It doesn't mean I have to agree with it. Almost all of my characters use collectors items, simply because they have the best stats. I've never bought anything from anyone for any amount of cash. I've sold some extra superior vigors and absorption runes that I had in storage, and that's about it. But that's me. I have a grand total of 12 globs and 6 shards in my storage, man, I'm almost there! At this rate, I'll have FoW armor in.....4 years?

I dislike grind - but my point (repeatedly) is that the game has turned INTO grind - whether you're a casual gamer or not. I didn't make it that way. The devs didn't make it that way intentionally. But it is what it is. THE PLAYERS have turned it into grind. If you can't grasp the fact that I am arguing AGAINST grind, I feel sorry for your reading comprehension skills. Regardless of how YOU or I feel about it, it's that way. Is it due to people expecting GW to be more like WoW? How do I know? It just IS. My argument is that I hope GW devs in chapter 2 offer MORE than grind - especially if it's just grind of more of the same crap people grind for now. I can't believe anyone can miscontrue my words into supporting grind.

Quit applying your POV of how the game SHOULD be to my arguments of how the game IS. I don't care if you're a casual gamer or not - or how many of your buddies are casual gamers or not. It is immaterial. It's a FACT that the clear majority of active players are simply grinding and farming - and the evidence is in game, as I've outlined before. Again, it is not how *I* want it to be either - but it *IS*.

EVEN THE HOLLOWEEN EVENT WAS SIMPLY FOR INCREDIBLY POINTLESS "STUFF". Does that mean it wasn't enjoyable? No. But everyone flocking to LA, over 200 districts, just to get a stupid pumpkin head? Don't even try and argue it wasn't. Perhaps you personally were there for "fun" doesn't mean that the 1,000s that were there weren't in it just for the goodies.

Oh, and BTW - GW has sold a million copies. WoW has over FOUR MILLION players. GW isn't going to catch up to that, no matter what you *wish* would happen. Do I think GW is a superior game over WoW? Can't say, I don't play anything other than GW. But apparently four times as many people apparently think not.

But then again, I'll get the typical "OMG FANBOI GO PLAY WOW THEN IF YOU HATE GW SO MUCH@!" which means I've wasted 20 minutes typing up this post.

They are way too obsessed with farmers and bots. They have too be, there is no limit on how long you can play Guild Wars and farm these precious spot for great drops. I mean look at players from around the world. For all i care, you can play all day long and get at least 100k or more in items or materials. Why is A-Net stopping this because there are too many rich bastards out there. (I'm rich too and i feel bad for those poor people out there) Why are they stopping farming or slowing it down, it hurts the economy. Ever try and buy a ecto only to find the price to be above 50k or 60k? i did. Ever try and get a black dye but that damn dye is worth 40k alone.. I did. Farmers screw with A-Net crappy economy system. I know the answer is why don't A-Net fixed their economy system or reset the price. Simple, if they did, the farmers would be given a free pass to do anything they wanted. Not saying farmers is bad (i'm one personally) but go out there and see how many people advertise "Uber or leet" drops that is asking for 100k or more.

"They've no way to expand in a meaningful way due to their inflexibility in regards to the level 20 cap" Why expanding can you get with level cap 100. I still see no one been able to answer my question from earlier. What if A-Net made Guild Wars in the beginning with level 100 cap. We would come to the forum and whine about the insane time it take to get to certain level? Oh here another point, what do you accomplish with high level? We all know that after level 20, you earn skills point. Do you really think A-Net will give use elite skills or more armor choices if we are higher level? The answer is no, they made it level 20 for people to reach it easily and the reward for getting pass level 20 is to get skill points to be used to unlock skills.

This quote "Noone who wanted to level higher than a given cap would ever need to (they just stick to whatever chapter fits their level cap desire), yet anyone who wanted to could do so, both groups get exactly what they want." can you elaborate a bit more, i don't understand it. You saying with a higher level cap, we can stay at any level we wanted yet to be able to compete with people who is higher (let say level 100). That don't make senese. Here why, say you met a charater who level 100 for chapter 2 and you can only use a level 20 character from chapter 1. Are you telling me that a level 20 can compete with a level 100 from chapter 2 in PvP? Don't make sense at all. althought they can make the level cap a bit higher say 30 or 40 but still if you increase level cap for one chapter it alienate the people who is only level 20 from chapter 1.

Word of Advise for Mimi and for everyone (including me)

Better calm down and don't add fuel into fire before mod start locking down this thread. Let just be reasonable instead of using our rage and anger! My post is just posting question cuz i just don't see why higher level for one chapter would work if chapter 2 will be higher.

People are supposedly miscontruing your words because you're constantly contradicting yourself. You've been advocating FOR a higher level cap in this thread and yet you said that you're not for grind.

I do agree that there's grind in GW. The PVE is tedious and repetitive and linear. But adding a higher level cap sure isnt going to fix that.

What I meant was that each Chapter would have its own level range (Chapter 1 would be 1 to 20, Chapter 2 would be 20 to 40, etc.) and each Chapter would be self-contained (if you take your character to Chapter 2 he/she can't go back to Chapter 1 areas). This gives you a level cap -and- level progression both, any given player can stop at whatever Chapter they feel is the best level cap for them. Don't want to go past 20? Then you can stay in Chapter 1 and never have to worry about facing anyone with gear/skills from some more advanced chapter.

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As to the anti-farming/botting nerfs, to screw a particular skill/spell over is a terrible approach, if they are worried about the economy then -fix- the economy. God knows people have been asking them to do this for months now, it sure wouldn't piss anyone off if they did. And as many have noted in this thread, farming is generally done out of boredom. I bet you 90% of farmers would stop farming if they had the ability to gain 20 more levels.

Also as noted before, farmers can't really screw the economy because you don't need uber money or uber gear. You can do quite well with modest sums of money gained from normal play and from crafted gear, you'll end up with 95%-99% of what someone gets from spending hundreds (or even thousands) of times the amount of money and effort. Noone needs ecto or black dye, as far as I know.

ANet has a split personality on this issue: on the one hand, they claim that uber gear doesn't matter and that they don't want grind, on the other hand they obsess over eliminating two types of gameplay whose only effect on the game is to increase the availability of the very items the ANet team says aren't that important.

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I find the idea that people only want more levels so they can lord it over others to be ridiculous. Sure, I'm sure some people feel that way, but that's hardly an excuse to paint everyone asking for an alteration in the level cap concept with that brush.

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Eet, grind means different things to different people. I -never- feel like I'm grinding when I'm leveling, some feel exactly the opposite (you seem to be one that feels leveling is grinding, for instance, where Mimi doesn't seem to). Mimi seems to me to be defining 'grinding' as engaging in non-productive repetitive activity in PvE once you hit level 20, not the leveling -to- level 20. So she's not contradicting herself, there's just a difference involved in what 'grind' means.

I am calm. I'm just tired of A) repeating myself when people skip over my lengthly posts and B) make assumptions about how I play, or who I am, on miscontruing what I write.

I am not advocating grind.

I am not advocating raising the level cap.

I am well aware of what the reasoning is behind the level cap.

I am not in favor of the economic disparity between the uber rich and the casual player.

I am not against casual play.

I *am* stating I hope ANet offers a compelling reason to buy chapter two, beyond just turning it into yet more areas to grind and farm from - especially since due to balance and level cap, the items are nothing more than cosmetic differences instead of "better". What is "better"? Tough to say, since ANet's design paradigm won't allow "better".

Once you reach level 20, is simply skill capping the only reason to keep playing, once you've finished the game? Is that it? For players that have finished the game, and capped the skills - what else is there to do? Nothing except grind, which is what a vast majority of people are doing. I WANT ANet to offer something better than that, since apparently there isn't anything more - especially since not everyone gives a rat's behind about PVP.

And yes, I've spent more time than I care to admit playing PVP, in GvG, CA, and Tombs. People have made assumptions about THAT too. I choose not to persue it as much as I used to simply because I hate the environment. Not the gameplay, but the players. The FOTW crap. The egos and elitism, and how it can turn friends into enemies simply because of greed and egos.

Mmmm'kay?

I have to agree Mimi

what do we have to grind for craps.. like green weapons (omg he got razorstone) or elite stuffs.

Case in point, yesterday i was with a farming run and in first time since SF came out, i seen 6 green drops on the same day. Once i saw a guy who got both Razorestone and Brohn Rod. I can't believe it and than this guy have the nerves to tell everyone "well, thats my 6 Razorestone"

It made me sad that i didn't get anything and i determine to get a decent green drops. I guess this just made me angry and despair to get greens by any mean necessary.

You're not advocating grind and raising the level cap? Hmmmm....

Here was your response:

Sure looks like an endorsement for raising the level cap...

EDIT: Haha, this post was useless since she has me on ignore. I guess if you've been repeatedly called out by someone you'd ignore them too...

1.) 2 new classes: This means you can level up 2 new classes or change your current character's secondary for even more diversity.

2.) This most likely means that all of chapter 1 will be included in chapter 2 so that you can level these 2 new characters up and the new people get the whole story....or....

3.) What if they let you level up to something like level 25? New players can start a new character at level 20 and start at chapter 2 instead of chapter 1. They can then pick from some of the current skills and pick a few Elites to start with. The rest they have to purchase or cap.

Keep those wise words coming, Lov.