Chapter 2, possible problems/disapointments

Originally Posted by -Loki-

No, it doesn't. They have already said you would be able to create a PvE character at level 20, and just play the chapter 2 stuff, or start a character from scratch. It's up to you.

Originally Posted by Frank The Tank

IMHO a MMORPG is not for the casual gamer and should not be designed as such.

Originally Posted by Mimi Miyagi

Well, gee, since I have played over 1,000 hours and have purchased three (yes three) copies of the game, I'd say you were a tad off in your assesment of how I felt about it.

Originally Posted by Mysterial

Nonsense. Most popular MMORPGs are for the casual gamer. That's what the "level treadmill" thing is all about - being able to kill some clearly defined monster repeatedly, requiring no thought or skill whatsoever, to advance to new stuff that just involves a new type of monster to kill repeatedly with no thought or skill whatsoever, and so on. Average people like that. Why is beyond my understanding, but they do. Unfortunately.

Guild Wars, of course, generally requires at least a moderate amount of thought and skill, which is a big reason why any balance related change is met by such general hostility, regardless of whether it improves the overall fairness of the game. Most people don't want to have to think and rework their build, they just want to kill the same things over and over some more.

Balance considerations aside, I can't see chapter 2 maintaining the level 20 cap and keeping the casual players playing this game. Even if the level boost was mostly illusion and gave you superficial bonuses, I think that illusion is necessary to keep the casual player playing. Average people don't care about world tournaments and PvP balance; they just want more power to gain and more cool items to acquire.

Originally Posted by Vorlin

Mimi's analysis is correct: the GWars team is trapped by their own paradigm. By designing their game around a level cap, and by having PvP which thus requires every class combo to balance with the others, they are stuck with a situation where they can't expand the game in a meaningful way. Note that I said -meaningful-, they can add fun content, but it won't -do- anything. No better gear, no better skills, no better classes, and since your characters are just as powerful in Chapter 1 as they will be in 2, 3, 4, etc., just how much PvE content can be added? Creatures can only do so much, and they can only get so hard because of the player level/skill limit, and in many ways we are close to what can be handled in Chapter 1.

Now, Muds (text-based multi-user dungeons) have existed for years and years with level limits. But the difference between them and GWars is simple: the people who played any given Mud formed social connections with each other. This doesn't happen in PvE GWars, there are just too many people, you aren't an individual you are just part of the mob. So with no significant social interaction, and no further character development possible, just what the heck is someone who doesn't want to PvP supposed to -do-? Just what they are doing now: grind for something (something that, as so many have pointed out, really isn't more than cosmetic) or quit playing.

I can see where PvP in GWars could attract a long-term commitment from someone, but a very large percentage of the online gaming community doesn't like to PvP (I don't care for it most of the time). For them, GWars just doesn't offer very much after the first couple of months, and anyone who thinks Chapter 2 is going to change that isn't being realistic.

Originally Posted by Eet GnomeSmasher

Well then, Gee you've played over a 1000 hours, I wonder how in the world you could find the game tedious. I just can't imagine spending 1000 hours of doing anything in such a short time frame and getting sick of it! Amazing!

Please note the sarcasm...

Originally Posted by Mimi Miyagi

Funny - ANet's own website claims it's a MMORPG. It's marketed as a MMORPG without monthly fees. It PLAYS like a MMORPG but simply instanced - instanced to reduce bandwidth and server costs.

You MEAN it's *not* WoW.

People keep countering with "level cap" arguments - yet not once in this thread did I say anything about making the level limit 40. I simply countered someone's argument that as a player, you need some sort of feeling of progression, or the game will die. Changing the level limit is JUST ONE METHOD. I didn't say it was the RIGHT one.

I don't know how many times I need to repeat myself - but if you look at the state of the game AS IT IS RIGHT NOW - tell me it's not "grind". Tell me that the vast majority of players are not involved in some aspect of farming/grind. That the "story" became almost unimportant at this point. The only thing people care about is greed. So, grind grind grind.

There is ample evidence all over the game how it's currently playing out. The PLAYERS have devolved the game into grind - whether you *think* it should be all about "skill and intelligence" or not. The game *is* grind.

My ultimate question *AGAIN* is - what is ANet and the developers going to do to *FIX* what GW has become?

And stop with the whole "the game was intended to last only a month blah blah blah" because quite frankly, you're wrong. No REAL game developer designs a game expecting a player to play it for a month and quit, and move onto something else unless they are hacks. Are the deves at ANet hacks? If that was the case - why the holloween event? why the world championships? Why the updates? Why SF? Why the new "titan" quests added (that hardly anyone does because they lack "phat lewt")? Because they don't want you to go start playing WoW, and forget about GW. THEY want your brand loyalty. They want to give you NO excuse to find GW boring, and get entertained some other way. If that WAS their intent, their marketing weasels, their brand managers, developers, designers, their CEO, should all be fired and on the cover of whatever professional game design magazine they subscribe to as posterchildren on how NOT to make a game. To suggest otherwise is spoken obviously by someone that has never run a company before, or taken even a basic business economics course. it is ESPECIALLY TRUE for MMORPGs. They are, by nature, designed to capture and hold your loyalty. If they fail to do so, then they fail period. And no matter how you slice it, GW *is* an MMORPG. They even say so.

Recognize the problems GW has - and tell me what is going to compel their core audience (current owners of GW) to buy the next chapter? Getting another profession or two to grind through the wilds again? A couple new skills for existing professions that are nerfed just enough to act no more or no less powerful than existing ones? New armor that has no better stats (for fear of game balance) but *look* different? Same thing for weapons, shields, wands, staffs, scrolls, etc?

The ONLY thing as it stands right now is "a whole new story arc and new missions to get to the end of the chapter, setting up for the next chapter".

Let's put it this way:

Chapter two will (apparently) feature:

Two (a guess) new professions...does this mean they have to go through the whole presearing crap again? run though the wilds again? And that's going to be fun...how? I've done it with six different characters, do you think it got a bit boring after...I dunno...the third time around? If you haven't done all six professions - are adding two more going to help?

Additional skills for existing professions? In order to maintain game balance they will be just as nerfed as existing skills. Simply more of the same, IMO. If they care about game balance (and with all the nerfing, apparently it's priority #1) then the new skills can't be any more powerful than existng ones. How many different skills do you need to heal that aren't any more effective than existing ones? Or apply blind? or boost HPs? Or cause Degen? Remember, even the new characters - for balance considerations - can't be any more or less powerful than any other profession.

New armor, weapons, upgrades, artwork, textures, designs - yet (again) in the interest of balance, are not any stronger or different from existing ones? A max dmg bow will always be 15-28? Then it's no longer "new" it's just "different". And how is that compelling? Even more different armor sets that provide no different stats than exisitng ones? Cosmetic change only.

More "phat lewt"? See above. If it's not going to be fundamentally different from what I have now - why bother? Cosmetic again.

So, now we get to the new "missions". Since you're already level 20, the XP doesn't matter. The additional skill points for bonuses shouldn't be that big of an attraction - after all, you should have plenty of skill points already, as by the time you've gone trough chapter one, you've gotten enough skill points to buy everything and cap everything in your profession. The drops won't be much different from what you can get in any mission past ascention, so that's not a big draw. New elites to cap? again, just how many ways to cause a deep wound do you need? And once you cap them - then what? Your skill bar (apparently) isn't going to be different (again, balance). Right now, as I said, the vast majority of the people aren't playing the story - they are grinding themselves in SF, UW, FoW, Prophet's Path.

So that only leaves the story - and as I said, the playres right now aren't worried about the story, they are worried about grind. It's been that way for months. Going though with a different character is simply just a way to get them to the higher areas to grind some more. That's why runners are so popular.

AGAIN, AGAIN, AGAIN, it doesn't matter what you THINK the game was intended to be, it is what it IS now - a grind. And given what seems to be the prevailing thought around here, chapter 2 isn't going to FIX this fundamental problem, since there isn't a compelling reason to buy it except to rush through the story so NEW farming/grinding areas can be discovered. Once you've seen the end of the movie, all you have left is the box of bon bons - and those bon bons better be good.

It is what it IS. And I hope ANet finds a way to make it NOT what it currently is, that chapter 2 brings MORE.

Or GW is going to die.

And note I provided not ONE single argument for or against raising the level cap limit. That is NOT the point of this post, so quit bringing it up when you're posting a counter argument.

My posts are too long, people simply will skim over them and say "OMG NO LVL 40 N00B STFU K THX BY".

But of course, at this point I could care less. My comments are directed at ANet anyway, really.

Originally Posted by Vorlin

I can see where PvP in GWars could attract a long-term commitment from someone, but a very large percentage of the online gaming community doesn't like to PvP (I don't care for it most of the time). For them, GWars just doesn't offer very much after the first couple of months, and anyone who thinks Chapter 2 is going to change that isn't being realistic.

Originally Posted by Mimi Miyagi

I believe the poster you are making your point with refers to the fact that as games like WoW charge a monthly fee, and that gamers feel compelled to spend as much time as they can with the game "to get their money's worth" means it's not designed for the casual gamer. Casual gamers don't become addicted to games like evercrack or WoW. That is the selling point of GW - yet GW has some of the same design trappings of the traditional MMORPGs to make it suited for the hardcore gamer.

Originally Posted by Mimi Miyagi

I fail to see what your trollish remarks have to do with my points - after all, they are valid points, even though you may not agree with them. Personal attacks simply dismiss your input.

Originally Posted by Vorlin

Mimi's analysis is correct: the GWars team is trapped by their own paradigm. By designing their game around a level cap, and by having PvP which thus requires every class combo to balance with the others, they are stuck with a situation where they can't expand the game in a meaningful way. Note that I said -meaningful-, they can add fun content, but it won't -do- anything. No better gear, no better skills, no better classes, and since your characters are just as powerful in Chapter 1 as they will be in 2, 3, 4, etc., just how much PvE content can be added? Creatures can only do so much, and they can only get so hard because of the player level/skill limit, and in many ways we are close to what can be handled in Chapter 1.

Now, Muds (text-based multi-user dungeons) have existed for years and years with level limits. But the difference between them and GWars is simple: the people who played any given Mud formed social connections with each other. This doesn't happen in PvE GWars, there are just too many people, you aren't an individual you are just part of the mob. So with no significant social interaction, and no further character development possible, just what the heck is someone who doesn't want to PvP supposed to -do-? Just what they are doing now: grind for something (something that, as so many have pointed out, really isn't more than cosmetic) or quit playing.

I can see where PvP in GWars could attract a long-term commitment from someone, but a very large percentage of the online gaming community doesn't like to PvP (I don't care for it most of the time). For them, GWars just doesn't offer very much after the first couple of months, and anyone who thinks Chapter 2 is going to change that isn't being realistic.

Originally Posted by sir skulkcrasher

Hmmmm.. no gears, skills, classes, what define better? what do you want as a better of everything? Are you saying that with new chapter that is stuck at level 20, we won't get any gears, skills, or upgrades?

Interesting point.... but the fact is, A-Net still add these items within the new chapters. You will get your new gears and weapons but does it required you to be level 20 or higher?

Originally Posted by Mysterial

The point that's being made is that even though there will be new classes, skills, and equipment, casual players will feel that they have no meaning since they won't actually get any more powerful, and therefore won't buy the expansion.

Originally Posted by Mysterial

The point that's being made is that even though there will be new classes, skills, and equipment, casual players will feel that they have no meaning since they won't actually get any more powerful, and therefore won't buy the expansion.

Originally Posted by Mysterial

I disagree, I think "hardcore" is defined by how you play and not how often. There are millions of people who play The Sims obsessively but I wouldn't call most of them "hardcore"... they just play it because it's "fun" without any consideration or understanding of why, and without doing any real analysis of the game mechanics. It's looking at the game analytically (sp?) that makes you hardcore - comparing numbers, strategies, efficiency, etc.

Originally Posted by sir skulkcrasher

Best Rant EVER!!

you answer your own question in here...... seriously! why do we have to change the level cap? Mimi give me list of reasons why level cap being change will save the game. I wonder myself why A-Net keep the level 20 cap but finally realize its just a way to keep the gameplay simple. Grant some morons can get to level 20 in 5 hours. While the rest take our time to play the game to reach level 20.

You know WHY we're not getting level cap changes.. you answer it here by yourself

"AGAIN, AGAIN, AGAIN, it doesn't matter what you THINK the game was intended to be, it is what it IS now - a grind. And given what seems to be the prevailing thought around here, chapter 2 isn't going to FIX this fundamental problem, since there isn't a compelling reason to buy it except to rush through the story so NEW farming/grinding areas can be discovered. Once you've seen the end of the movie, all you have left is the box of bon bons - and those bon bons better be good."

WE (the consumers) pay A-Net (the producer) cash or money for this game, the designs and ideas is A-Net's choice. They can do WHATEVER they want, granted they throw in the special events, and patches but think about.. (think for a second without going on a huge ranting rage Mini) Why is A-Net doing it. To stop people like us from being bored and complain like hell on forums. Also another purpose to give some new contents within the game to keep its population size stable. Believe me after the AoE nerfing patch, there is less people in town and i seen more necro, or monk being made.

Another congrat on this..

"It is what it IS. And I hope ANet finds a way to make it NOT what it currently is, that chapter 2 brings MORE.

Or GW is going to die"

Oh yes, it will die for those who won't accept the fact that level cap changes might not happen for chapter 2 (again this is rumor.. i'm not sure either) Your almost giving A-Net two opinion either make level cap higher or people like you who want it higher will leave for good. Which in my opinion will hurt its sales count for Chapter 2 but think about how many people here will buy it
I bet it will outweight the number of peoples who wouldn't buy chapter 2.

Originally Posted by Eet GnomeSmasher

Personal attacks? Point me out where I made any. Stop grasping at straws and just plain making things up.

You have a right to express your opinions that's true, just as I have the right to express how ridiculous your opinions are. The difference is that I don't try to force my opinions on others and make ridiculous statements such as "GW will die" simply because YOU are unhappy with the game. That's like me saying "Rap will die" simply because I don't like it.

Originally Posted by Eet GnomeSmasher

I would hope that "casual" players play the game because they find it fun....not just to feel more "powerful"

Originally Posted by Red Sonya

.........
All too many people want this to be like every other mmorpg out there a "materialistic, long tedious level grinding, phat loot pwnage" type of game. Guess what? It ain't ever gonna be that, so, if that's what you are expecting, you might as well leave now and not even buy the expansion. Ain't NEVAH gonna happen with GUILD WARS cause it's about SKILL & INTELLIGENCE, not materialistic things, long tedious level grinding and phat loot". AMEN!

Originally Posted by Hell Marauder

You're absolutely right about GW, Red Sonya. But SKILL & INTELLIGENCE IS exactly about ELITISM. Not everyone has same skill or intelligence or belong to an uber guild, but everyone has exactly SAME chance for making money and getting that uber weapon/armors in other online games. So if GW is only catering to people with most skill and intelligence, then there's no way for average online player to win consistently. More and more I see GW as a socialist system with skills handed out to everyone but it's player's team/association that counts, and other online rpg as capitalist system which rewards people with most time (for grinding) and money/uber items. So which is better? Socialism or capitalism in pvp?

Originally Posted by Hiryu

I'm hoping they make this game better for the casual gamer. Right now, casual gamers can't even hope to fully experience huge chunks of the game such as Tombs or Guild Battles (that's a good 2/3 of the PvP content!).

It takes forever to get a Tombs group set up with Pick-up-groups, and it can take a hell of a lot of time and effort to find a highly active PvP guild and set up a team to go into Tombs. This problem is even worse for new unranked players.

The same idea applies with Guild Battles. For a game that's so focused on guilds, there aren't even many guild features to speak of. There isn't even an in-game system to help a player get acquainted with a guild if they so desire. Everything has to be done on the internet, and casual players will probably not want to go through all that searching and even guild politics for the sake of a game. The game can feel more like work, (tedious, frustrating work) than play if you want to experience all the aspects of the game. For a game that has been advertised to be focused on PvP and cater to casual gamers, this is just absurd.

For the casual gamer, all there really is to the game is the dry PvE campaign, the PvE quests, and the Competition Arenas. So much for the "time spent having fun, rather than time spent preparing to have fun" philosophy.

Originally Posted by sir skulkcrasher

Agree, i can't even get into tomb without being asked are you a IWAY tank or a rank 3? It funny how these strategy is being used as a invite for party. Why can't A-Net make it more simple. I can probably go to HoH with my guild but most of the time no one is on. There isn't a way to get into HoH unless you know the strategy that is needed or have rank 3 or higher.

Originally Posted by Mysterial

The point that's being made is that even though there will be new classes, skills, and equipment, casual players will feel that they have no meaning since they won't actually get any more powerful, and therefore won't buy the expansion.

Originally Posted by Hell Marauder

You're absolutely right about GW, Red Sonya. But SKILL & INTELLIGENCE IS exactly about ELITISM. Not everyone has high skill or intelligence or belong to an uber guild, but everyone has exactly SAME chance for making money and getting that uber weapon/armors in other online games. So if GW is only catering to people with most skill and intelligence, then there's no way for average online player to win consistently. More and more I see GW as a socialist system with all skills handed out to everyone but some more useful than others, and it's player's team/association that counts the most, and other online rpg as capitalist system which rewards people with most time (for grinding) and money/uber items. So which is better? Socialism or capitalism? Hmm I dunno.

Originally Posted by Zaklex

What's to say that A.net can't add items, weapons, armors and mods for ALL classes that do increase the feeling of being more powerful without screwing up the game balance. Remember, there will be certain areas were people that only own chapter 1 or chapter 2 can intermingle with those that own both chapters.

Originally Posted by Mysterial

The point that's being made is that even though there will be new classes, skills, and equipment, casual players will feel that they have no meaning since they won't actually get any more powerful, and therefore won't buy the expansion.

Originally Posted by Mysterial

They find it fun because they get more powerful. That's the point of an action RPG.

If that were true, the game wouldn't be balanced. Because the game is supposed to be balanced, then by definition no new items, skills, etc. added by the expansion can be more powerful. Therefore, I fear many people will see them as meaningless. Changing the level cap may not necessarily be the best answer, but I use it as the example because it's the most obviously visual. They could do a similar effect by, for example, raising the damage on everything by a few points, and adding armor with a couple more points of protection. Balance wise, everything could be identical or nearly so, but it adds the feeling of progression and gaining power that I think most casual players will expect a new expansion to contain.

Additionally, if you want to see exactly how much most people like putting together new builds, go see one of the ten thousand "OMG they nerfed [insert skill or item], I'm leaving!" threads.

Originally Posted by Loviatar

SINCE THEY WONT ACTUALLY GET MORE POWERFUL?

TELL ME HOW LEVEL 40 IS MORE POWERFUL THAN LEVEL 20

i am level 1 and have a level 1 fireball that kills the level 2 monsters in 2-3 hits.

i am level 5 and have a level 5 fireball that kills the level 7 monsters in 2-3 hits.

i am level 10 and have a level 10 fireball that kills the level 12 monsters in 2-3 hits.

i am level 20 and have a level 20 fireball that kills the level 22 monsters in 2-3 hits.

i am level 40 and have a level 40 fireball that kills the level 42 monsters in 2-3 hits.

LOOK AT MY GREAT PROGRESS

where is the increase in challenge?

where is anything changing except the number?

Originally Posted by Eet GnomeSmasher

Some people actually get a sense of accomplishment by using their brains and skill rather than grinding for an artificially high number in their level stat.

Originally Posted by Mimi Miyagi

Gee, I guess you can't stop trolling. You're again attacking the "worth" of my opinion - not my opinion itself.

Ignored.

Originally Posted by Mysterial

Bingo! You've caught on to the appeal of most RPGs. That is, the numbers get bigger. People feel like they're stronger and more powerful. That's what it's all about.

And yet, it's almost entirely illusion.

The fact that in reality, the increased levels are not really meaningful is irrelevant. What is relevant is that the players perceive it to be. And so we get to this thread. The worry is that the game won't create that illusion, so many people will not buy it. Therefore, it's proposed that in some way (through increased level cap or some other method) that people appear to become more powerful. It doesn't actually have to mean anything. For example, they could just change the calculations to be base 70 for armor, change the max level armors proportionally, and create new max level armor crafters for everyone in both chapters. Suddenly there's something new you need to get, something more to do, more progression, and yet once you have it you're back where you started. But few will notice that part. Most will just notice the bigger numbers on their equipment.

Originally Posted by Vorlin

So this breaks down to: Chapter 2 has no meaningful content, it's just for fun. For many this won't be a problem, but for many others it most definitely will be.

.

Originally Posted by Mysterial

Yes, they do. But are they the majority? Probably not. That's what this thread is about. It isn't about what people like you and me want, it's about what the average gamers want, who if the game appeals to them enough may one day see the light and become like you and me. Which means more people playing competitively, which is good for all of us.

Originally Posted by Eet GnomeSmasher

Are you saying that we should cater to those who want GW to be like every other MMO out there? If the vast majority of people like WoW then something innovative such as GW shouldnt exist?