Equalize PvP and PvE chars.

Please read the whole thread before posting, so as not to repeat arguements that have been discussed already ^^;;

edit: This post is about PvP

Edit: Trascribed from WOC #40

Concerning armor swapping: 1:51:48 into the broadcast
Concerning PvP characters only having 2 weapons vs a PvE character: 1:53:03
To start off, Im posting this because of Izzy's comment on the recent WOC radio interview regarding expanding the PvP characters weapon slots.

Idea: Equalize PvP and PvE chars COMPLETELY in PVP modes

Methods:
1) Lock a char's inventory in PVP. [EDITED]
2) Expand PvP char's weapon and armor options. [edit]
3) PvE chars become PvP chars in a PvP area

Lock Char's Inventory In PvP modes [EDITED]

Once a PvP battle has started, a character's inventory is locked. Only weapons in the existing 4 slots will be usable. Only equipped armor is usable (armor lock is implemented).

Expand PvP char's weapon options

Theres quite a bunch of strange weapons available in PvE that dont exist in PvP. Like the nolani wand or the +energy shield. Some of these weapons make it into PvP.

Im sure Anet is already looking at adding these kinds of items into PvP and I think we should formally request it.

The PvP chars should have 4 slots for weapons (no brainer there ^^; ) and ability to craft as much armor as their bags can hold. Speaking of which....

They should have access to a FULL backpack/pouch/bag setup with ability to create as many weapons with EVERY mod possible. (implemented)

Lyra's Crazy Idea

When a PvE char enters a PvP staging area, ALL OF THE UNLOCKED SKILLS BECOME USABLE. Just like a PvP char.

When you return to the PvE area, those skills disappear.

I think this will satisfy the PvE players and give them a use for Balthazar points in a more tangible way if they dont use a PvP char.

Anything else?: Destroy the line between PvP and PvE!

Edits: Thanks to -JR

looks nice, though:

prepare to be flamed on that subject.


shouldnt be too hard, i mean, they can do that with the celestial skills

Equalizing PvP and PvE characters would take away the incentive to make a PvE character when all you have to do is make a PvP character that is level 20 with all these awesome weapons and whatnot.

Lock PvE Char's Inventory In PvP modes

Once a PvP battle has started, a character's inventory is locked. Only weapons in the existing 4 slots will be usable. Only equipped armor is usable.
Why? If a PvE character BUYS his armor he should be able to switch it in the midst of battle. The reason that PvP characters only have one set of armor to work with is because they do nothing to earn it except make a character.

The PvP chars should have 4 slots for weapons (no brainer there ^^)

Agreed

Lyra's Crazy Idea

When a PvE char enters a PvP staging area, ALL OF THE UNLOCKED SKILLS BECOME USABLE. Just like a PvP char.

When you return to the PvE area, those skills disappear.

I think this will satisfy the PvE players and give them a use for Balthazar points in a more tangible way if they dont use a PvP char.

Just don't see it happening. There is no justification for it. Imagine this...I'm UAX and I go into the ascalon arena with my level 10...BAM I have access to a variety of skills that are amazingly powerful in the arena. The point of having a roleplaying character is to learn and earn the skills on your own.

So in short...this idea is /notsigned.

yeah sure, a char made in 2 mins should be equal to a PvE char

/end sarcasm

My ideas seek to resolve the major differences between PvE and PvP chars IN PVP only.

PvP chars have access to ALL unlocked items including all skills, runes, weapon mods etc.

In order for a PvE char to match this, that character has to capture every elite and buy every single skill and buy expensive and overpriced mods if they want to even come close to the versatility in skills that a PvP char has.


This is unfair.


On the same note, PvE characters have access to a bigger weapon pool, more weapon slots, and the ability to swap armors while PvP chars do not.

This is also unfair.


seandom: Ascalon Arena is already full of twinkers. If you want to fix it, have can have all characters who enter it no matter what level they are have reduce HP, Energy, Armor and Weapon damage and available skillsets only available up to Yak's Bend so its an equal playing field.

If anet did that, I am sure more people would just quit the game!

Might as well give pvp player all 15k armor too.

this game would also futher away from being a rpg!


I also grantee anet does this gw is out the door!

Thank you for the useless post.

My ideas seek to resolve an issue of inequality that has been there for a while.

IT DOES NOT AFFECT PVE-ONLY PLAYERS IN ANY GOREDGO-ING WAY

So unless you PvP, this does not affect you. So shoo~~~

edited for your edit:

No. Thats a silly idea. I took a while to make my 15k armor. PvP only chars dont deserve vanity skins because they are there for functionality, not for vanity.

Good ideas here, one of the complaints many pvpers have is that they have to grind at pve to make a competitive character for pvp(armour switches, more than 2 weapon sets, capping elites, etc.).
These changes would make a lot of pvpers happy while at the same time benefitting pvers who wish to pvp as well.

I like Lyra's crazy idea. It just needs to be disabled in non max level arenas (ascalon, yaks). Those places cant be accessed by pvp players (only pve players who want to try pvp). So no need for this feature and cant be abused as like seandom mentioned.

Yeah, that is how it should be. You shouldnt get an advantage just because you grinded.

You get the advantage (should you want it) because you bothered to spend time on your character. I'm not saying that in every case, one person or another may have also spent time building their characters up, but I see the reasoning behind the existing system. If you bother to spend time and money on your character, I think that you honestly deserve the possible advantage.

/notsign

EDIT: And, yes, I would quit the game if such a change happened.

I agree with lyra. This game is about skill, not based on the amount of time you spent on grinding for your armour. Locking the inventories is a good idea. I completely agree that PvE characters should keep their 15k armour (even though that's not the subject at hand), but their ability to give them the advantage of armour switching in combat makes PvPing unbalanced.

Lyra, your last idea really is crazy... There is a reason why there is a difference between PvE and PvP. If you're trying to unify these two, then what you are proposing is that it would be easier to make a PvE character soley for PvP than it would be to make a PvP character, because you have the benefits of both - thus it inheritly puts PvP out of favour.

Im more prone to get angry with non lvl 20's in the battle arenas than anything...

/signed

My view of the subject (even though I varely PvP) is that if this game is truly "skill instead of time played" then characters who spent the time grinding shouldn't get any more benefits than the characters who did not. One thing that is very annoying and is often overlooked PvP only characters can ONLY PvP, PvE characters can do both, you spent the time on them so you could do this, not so you could have an unfair advantage over the PvP only characters.

I'm either way on the vanity skins, I don't see how it hurts the PvP'ers or the PvE'ers, sounds to me you just want something to bitch about =\

Jsut remember...all unlocked skills are available to a character at the skill trainers now

Absolutely. Besides the obvious stupidity of having a character change all his clothes in the middle of a battle, it completely breaks the tradeoffs and balancing of choosing one armor over another if you can just take all of them.

About the various minor items that aren't in the PvP character screen, meh. I personally think it's OK and a good carrot to dangle in front of the "I need teh uber items!" types to have a few balanced, generaly inconsequential PvE only item mods, like the 10% global spell fastcast/recharge items. But I wouldn't care too much if they put them all on the PvP character screen, either.

Nope, I spent hundreds of hours perfecting a pve character for the eventual use in pvp. I have the right to switch my armors and weapons, etc. You created a character in two minutes with a build in mind. In no way is that equal to the time spent on a pve character. I will agree that pvp should have 4 equipment slots, but don't they already? Do you not just need to enable the slots and stick something in there?

I have spent nearly 3 thousand hours in this game, in 10 months, unlocking everything for pvp through pve. Very seldom have I used faction for an unlock, perhaps for a weird upgrade mod, or something. A large percentage of the gw population, who does pvp, uses their pve characters. It's a symbol of pride and a show of good work and time spent in perfecting something, rather than quick fabricating a generic character that never really feels like 'yours' If they want to switch their armors mid battle. let them. If they want to open their inventory to change runes, let them. They worked their ass off for it too.

Changes like this will not seal the rift between pve and pvp, but will splinter it even further.

Also, not signed for the skills either. Just.. not signed in general. This is rather ridiculous.

It seems to me, that the basic concept that Anet has tried to follow with guild wars is:

Grinding =/= Better Player
Builds =/= Better Player
Skill = Better Player
Tactics = Better Player

So your 3000 hour PvE char should not have ANY advantage over my 2 minute PvP char, because what should make the difference is how we play and use the characters.

If you can grind to gain an advantage over me, then the system is broken. That equality that Guild Wars is supposed to be all about is gone

Yikes, if you're going to lock my inventory can I at least have another weapon slot? >P One or two? Pretty please.



I don't like the idea heh, but I can see how it's unbalanced I guess.. but then I won't be able to put on my dragon mask for kicks in pvp. Thats no fun.

PvE is not for the sole purpose of PvP you know. PvE, if you some of you can swallow this, is playing the game. PvE is not simply a means to play effective PvP.

If you worked hard to get all your armour, congrats. You've got some shiny 15K armour. But I don't see how changing your armour mid-battle is a "right."

Nice ideas, Lyra.

I like all your ideas so /signed. I think something should be done about letting PvP-only have multiple sets of armor though... or at least let them change runes without having to reroll.

Where s that shield with +energy and while they are at it put back the HoD sword in PvE ?

@ the OP

It makes a lot sense and I guess i am full behind it, but there is a little part of me that enjoys the advantage my pve warrior has over pvp chars. Despite this, change is needed in the interest of balance.

they were going to add more weapon setups soon, i think up to 9? i heard somewhere (maybe it was gaile log).

anyway this topic = Yes,yes,yes,yes.

its about time pve = pvp for god sakes, we dont make pve chars to be PVE ONLY forever, and they clearly didnt want that with factions... so...

1) locking inventory = i guess you should. but being able to change armor should be possible in some way (weap slots? armor slots?) only due to the issue of wearing the wrong armor by mistake and stuck with it. that type of situation. and wearing holiday items should be allowed. (its only giving the enemy a handicap??)

2) once you enter random arena outpost or any other pvp ready area (such as even GH) you should have all skills you have unlocked available for you to use - as well as character sub class changes (for PVP only).

For example: lvl 20 ranger/monk of PVE, goes to his Guild's hall. he can use all the skills he unlocked from his other char lvl 20 monk/mesmer, as well as mesmer,ranger skills will show in his skill list. There should be a NPC that can change your 2ndary class for PVP purposes ONLY.
So what he should beable to do is, change 2ndary to mesmer, use whatever hes unlocked and go to pvp land. wearing his sexy armor and whatnot.

once he returns to guild hall and decides hes done with pvp, he can either have a npc undo his 2ndary change there, or just leave and have it auto change back.

-OPTIONS PEOPLE. WE WANT OPTIONS. PLEASE ARENA NET
-its fair, it makes pve more of something a pvp only person would do for armor looks, etc, pimping your char out, and pvp at the same terms as pvp only. the only problem you will have is getting the right gear = which is FAIR.

That is how it is, get used to it. Same with titles, faction farming, getting rich. All a grind. However, skill is greater than grind in all aspects of the game, because believe me, a shiney 15k armor won't win the GWFC or, hold halls.

However.. nowhere did I say that i had a 3000 hour character. I said I have a 3000 hours in game.. 3000 hours capping skills and items, buying vanity equipment and most importantly, learning how to play my profession efficiently and to the maximum of my potential.

In that 3000 hours, As I said before, I have unlocked through pve, every skill, nearly every elite and almost every random upgrade and rune. The remainder was done through faction. Either way you look at it, through pve or pvp, you are going to be either hustling gold and skill points to buy skills and cap elites, or farming kills for faction for the same outcome. At least through pve, the outcome is a promise and you gain wealth at the same time. The armors, the 20/20 rockmolders, the HoD axe, these are all icing on the cake.

Nowhere do the shiney armors, the nerfed offhand, or any other equipment, give me an advantage over a seasoned pvp player. Unless they are perhaps bedazzled by my armor and are too blindsided to kill me. Only in a fantasy world. How is keeping people from opening their inventory going to solve your problems? Pvp characters have an inventory too, and they're more than welcome to use it. They can even store things in it, such as.. oh, 20/20 rock molders, HoD axes , even beancakes if it pleases you.

As you just said yourself, the difference is made on how you play and use the characters. So.. again..what's the problem? If inventory issues are keeping roy randoms 2 minute necro, from beating my experience playing necro, (1400 hours in pve and pvp) then the issues do not lie with being able to armor switch, or weapons switch or peek into a box of stuff, it lies with inexperience and the proper knowledge of the classes ability, not the lack of ability to switch armors.


....


There is a rune trader in every pvp outpost...


He will gladly sell you whatever rune you would like.

It does suck that pvp is only allowed one armor, but it's vanity, really, that tends to put most people off of it. Going into a pvp situation, you should already know what armor is essential to the build.

How many people honestly do switch out armors in mid match?

heh, I saw the title and said to myself "uh oh" then saw Lyra's name as the poster, then I knew it would be well thought out. I'm pure PvE and also listened to "Izzy's" interview and the ideas Lyra has put out would seem to work towards what was said in the inteview.

Since this effects only PvP and puts players on a more equal footing, which PvP needs to have;

/signed

If you admit that PvP is about skill, Then why arent you cheering my idea on!? If you dont see the inventory thing as an issue, WHY DO YOU CARE IF IT IS REMOVED?

It should be a non-issue to you, removing the advantage, even if slight.

Well, according to you, it isnt an issue, so why are you even bothering?

Fact is, I disagree with your opinion.

I like the ability to be able to open inventory to switch a weapon on the fly. Something not in my regular rotation. This is not an advantage over a pvp character because they can do the same thing as me. Again.... pvp has inventory too and the ability to pick things up out of their/your storage account for the very same reason I do it. Too much dp and need more health? lose a sup rune. Yet another ability pvp characters have. This is balanced.

When you start giving straight pve characters shiney emotes for doing so many missions to the end, or collecting truffles, then you can start complaining about the supposed 'unfair' advantage pve characters have over pvp avatars within pvp. You see lyra.. straight pvp'rs get their glam too, it's called rank. You don't get this in pve, now do you. Everything in between the rank and the pve flash, is balanced. Face it.

I would like to see being able to unlock vanity stuff like weapon skins, pet types, even black and silver dye coloring, with faction. Once you've unlocked every skill and item in the game, what else is there really to do with Balthazar faction?

Also, every Guild Hall should have a profession changer, OR you should be able to spend faction (say 5k) with the priest and change your secondary, instead of re-rolling every dang time.

Allow for creating 4 weapon sets on character creation screen. I'm usually content with 1 set of armor on my PVP character, but there really needs to be more weapon flexibility. An attack class at minimum needs a vamp, zealous, and elemental weapon, so you lose out with 2 slots.

The current PVP building system does need major improvements, that's hard to deny.

/signed

you have to realise some people don't want to spend hours on end in pve on building a character that has small advantages in PVP. You might think that grinding for hours on end and spending lots of gold on weapons should earn you an advantage in PvP, well it shouldn't... PvE gives you the cool looking armor and weapon appearances and it should end at that.

They need to expand the pvp creation screen to contain 4 weapon slots worth of equipment. Perhas add a few more items to it such as the likes of the forgottonen fans and nolani wands.

And yes, I agree with locking the inventory - it's a simple way of making them equal in PvP, which they should be.

The ability to create a lvl 20 character with the equipment necessary is essential to be successful in any form of PvP so that in the end result of a match is the differential in skill rather than simply having better equipment that allowed for victory or defeat.

In other words,a good outfitted PvE character will provide you with more options over anything you can create in a PvP character.

I felt strongly encouraged when Isaiah Cartwright or better known as Izzy,Skill Balancer, himself agreed that PvE should only be for vanity reasons(15K Armor) and should not have a stronghold over PvP characters as stated in WoC #40. Unfortunatly he doesn't seem to have a big voice when it comes to this type of issues and I don't believe it will ever get resovled.

I really do not think anyone gets it.

No one said that spending money on shiney things grants advantage. It was stated from the beginning that it is all just sauce on the ice cream to pve'rs who happen to enjoy pvp as well and wish to use their pve characters for it.

Tell me, how is locking the pve characters inventory balancing if the pvp characters still able to use their inventories to aquire the same items as the pve avatars!?

No one seems to be able to answer this... yet you guys keep bringing it up, over and over again.

/notsigned

There is no advantage here because every player has the opportunity to make a PvE character and have the very slight advantages you are discussing.
If you put the time in to make a PvE char PvP ready why should you be punished so they are the same as Pvp chars?

100% agree, i spend a lot of time making my PvE chars perfect for PvP getting all the nerfed items and armor swaps aswel as weapons for every situation, if your too lazy to do that then you dont deserve an advantage, just be thankful there is pvp characters available.

Yo buff, you skiving work aswel?

/signed

Even easier would be to simply lock a character's armor and weapon sets outside of an outpost. Same mechanic as with Attribute Points (remember the travesty of Refund Points?). And not just in PvP; in PvE as well. Right now, it's way too easy to simply pack multiple armors to "get rid of" Death Penalty. Adding some more challenge to the game wouldn't hurt.

As for the exotic weapons, let those be the infinitely small "advantage" for PvE characters. Unless you want to implement every single possible combination for every focus item in the PvP character creation screen (even some that are not available through Greens, such as Shields with [-2 while enchanted & -2 while in a stance]), PvE characters will always be "unbalanced".

Last but not least, allow PvP characters to effectively pick 4 weapon sets during character creation.

/signed.
You're right, Lyra.
I bought this game, mainly because of A-net's advertisement: "the only game where skill is more important than hours played". It was their selling argument. The "so-called" core strenght of their game. Having a job and a wife, I can't afford to spend as much time as kiddy grinders with plenty of free hours to unlock everything.
Sadly, grind is in this game also.
For all the grinders here, you bought the wrong game if you think your hours of play "deserve" you something. It's clearly not the way this game was advertised. And if it is, or has become, then ANET made misleading advertising.
I must say that Faction brought more grind than skill.
And I'm now looking for a true CORPG where skill is really the basis of the game. I have money. The presence or lack of monthly fee is not my main concern when buying any game.

MMORPG Socialism...bah

Locking the inventory makes no sense. First of all, you need a vamp weapon for every time you get stuck in the terrain (sad but true). Secondly, If you can switch a weapon, then you should be able to switch a headpiece or rune or whatever the hell you need.

THIS game is not pvp based game! It is rpg game! If anet does this they might as well take the the rpg off thier boxies and start refounding peoples money!

All armor set should be locked! for pvp

IF gw is not an rpg it is open to law suits!

/not signed

if u don't like it, make a pve char,

Also un-nerfing the bloody skills put in to "balance" PvP would be a great idea as well for PvE ONLY players who have to put up with the crap cos someone in PvP whined and boo hooed about them being "overpowered".

/signed.

You people talking about "blah blah blah I grinded I should have an advantage" aren't realizing if I am PURE PVP I grinded for balthazar faction to unlock EVERYTHING, how about that? Personally, I have 5 PVE characters, all level 20 and through both campaigns. However, I ONLY use PVP characters in PVP because it is so much simpler and I can get everything perfect since I unlocked stuff... and yet those people who PVE characters can have bags full of stuff to use for EVERY situation.

If you think its ok PVP characters get the low end of the PVP stick (wait... PVP characters are MADE FOR PVP! They should be the ones with any advantage).

How about this crazy idea... don't even let PVEs into PVP. Bet you all think I am crazy, right? Well PVP characters are only getting one spectrum of the game, so why not level the playing field so people aren't forced to PVE to be "the best" even though "the best" is supposed to be based on skill of playing, not skill of swapping armors/weapons.

Also, we REALLY need a secondary profession changer in the arenas... make it like the changer in Senji's Corner for PVE characters so they have to pay, and make it so PVP characters can just use it for free. Makes rerolling a lot easier and I would even love to see an NPC for general changing of stuff... I would LOVE to be able to talk to an NPC and change my runes/mask to go from a domination mesmer to an illusionary one.

Sorry for the rant... but yeah...