Originally Posted by lyra_song
3) PvE chars become PvP chars in a PvP area
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Equalize PvP and PvE chars.
Tongloid Tarthwood
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Dougal Kronik
Leave via the ship on the map.
lyra_song
Please read the thread, we've danced this dance already.
We've already established that it is unfair but for the pvp character, in terms of equipment and armor.
Please do not forget what Anet's gaming model is.
Time spent =/= advantage
Guild Wars is supposed to be about player skill.
The time invested in your character should be purely for VANITY reasons and should give you zero advantage in PvP.
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Originally Posted by tracydunklee
People think that it is unfair that PvE characters has all what seems to be the advantages in this game. Yet it seems very unfair if the PvP had the same choices when making there 2 minute character. PvE players has to buy, find or whatever for there upgrades for there armor or weapons. Not to say anything about upgrading their armor. Which PvP gets it for free and any upgrades. Just has longs as they are unlocked. Is that really fair to the PvE player?
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Anything I have even read, even from GW's said that a PvP character is a weaker character compaired to it PvE counter part. Personnally, a PvP charcter is for the lazy player. Someone who does not want to invest anytime in their character nor their Guild. |
Time spent =/= advantage
Guild Wars is supposed to be about player skill.
The time invested in your character should be purely for VANITY reasons and should give you zero advantage in PvP.
lyra_song
bump.
theres been a few recent threads discussing these ideas i proposed, so i think this thread desserves a bump because it encompasses a lot of things into one idea.
theres been a few recent threads discussing these ideas i proposed, so i think this thread desserves a bump because it encompasses a lot of things into one idea.
Horseman Of War
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Originally Posted by Tongloid Tarthwood
This is the only bit I have a problem with. If a PvE char becomes a PvP char, how are PvE chars supposed to get out of the battle isles, once they are in?
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duh. if you cant figure this out, howd you even make it that far?
PvP- Only Characters will undoubtably be better on average than a pvE character
they always have maxed equipment, Like the above poster said- the pve characters are about vanity the pvp characters are about simple functionality.
It will take you a good amount of time to get your PvE character 'ready' for playing with the big boys.
If you WANT to spend time on your characters/account then you make pve... If you WANT to have everything available to you quicker then just play PvP toons.
Easy as that. Anet is not selling you lies, so quit whining like little kids.
Midnight08
/signed and i dont really PvP. The PvP environment was meant to be equal footing from the start, it has grown away from that somewhat and the above proposals would help to rectify this.
(and the reason for the PvE mode is not to get a advantage people, its to enjoy a storyline and play a non PvE game for a bit. I dont like pvp and if there wasnt a pve mode i wouldnt play. Even if i did like pvp i wouldnt want an advantage for grinding... this isnt 1 of those other games where the winner is the one with the most hours spend farming/grinding.)
(and the reason for the PvE mode is not to get a advantage people, its to enjoy a storyline and play a non PvE game for a bit. I dont like pvp and if there wasnt a pve mode i wouldnt play. Even if i did like pvp i wouldnt want an advantage for grinding... this isnt 1 of those other games where the winner is the one with the most hours spend farming/grinding.)
Cineris
Of course time spent in the game equals an advantage. Expecting to have the same options available to you when you open up the box as to when you've been playing for 20 hours is absurd. Even first-person shooter games, which are entirely about skill, typically pace a player in the equipment he acquires -- Starting off with every weapon in the arsenal blows the enjoyment of improving and getting different strategic and tactical options.
What Guild Wars advocates, and delivers on, is that playing 1000+ hours isn't going to grant you access to gear that's unquestionably better than the gear you can easily acquire on a 20hr run through the game. Is playing for all that extra time going to give you extra resources to get exactly the gear you want for your build? Sure. Ultimately though, those items are no more or less balanced than other easily accessible top-tier items.
What people seem to be advocating here is an extremely selective absolutist principle -- It doesn't seem to bother anyone that a person starts off an account with a limited set of skills and equipment. More and better options have to be unlocked via various means, even though ostensibly this is in violation of the principle that "time spent != advantage." Of course, advocating that people start right out of the box with all skills and equipment unlocked would rightly dismissed as absurd and due to an inappropriate sense of entitlement -- But so is this entire proposal. Despite the repeated assertions that "time spent != advantage" or that a PvPer shouldn't have to "grind" (aka, "play the game") there's remarkably little evidence to back up the assertion that PvE characters gain any advantage worth noting from the perceived imbalance.
Guess what? There's a fundamental asymmetry between PvP and PvE characters. There's no point in trying to completely "equalize" them -- They were designed to be asymmetrical. Unless you want to erase the distinction between the character types altogether you're not going to achieve parity. If you primarily play PvE there's no point in complaining that PvP characters get to slap on equipment that you would normally have to work to acquire willy-nilly -- Roll up a PvP character. Similarly, if you think PvE characters are getting an undue advantage -- Why don't you go make one and see how much of an advantage being PvE grants you in PvP?
What Guild Wars advocates, and delivers on, is that playing 1000+ hours isn't going to grant you access to gear that's unquestionably better than the gear you can easily acquire on a 20hr run through the game. Is playing for all that extra time going to give you extra resources to get exactly the gear you want for your build? Sure. Ultimately though, those items are no more or less balanced than other easily accessible top-tier items.
What people seem to be advocating here is an extremely selective absolutist principle -- It doesn't seem to bother anyone that a person starts off an account with a limited set of skills and equipment. More and better options have to be unlocked via various means, even though ostensibly this is in violation of the principle that "time spent != advantage." Of course, advocating that people start right out of the box with all skills and equipment unlocked would rightly dismissed as absurd and due to an inappropriate sense of entitlement -- But so is this entire proposal. Despite the repeated assertions that "time spent != advantage" or that a PvPer shouldn't have to "grind" (aka, "play the game") there's remarkably little evidence to back up the assertion that PvE characters gain any advantage worth noting from the perceived imbalance.
Guess what? There's a fundamental asymmetry between PvP and PvE characters. There's no point in trying to completely "equalize" them -- They were designed to be asymmetrical. Unless you want to erase the distinction between the character types altogether you're not going to achieve parity. If you primarily play PvE there's no point in complaining that PvP characters get to slap on equipment that you would normally have to work to acquire willy-nilly -- Roll up a PvP character. Similarly, if you think PvE characters are getting an undue advantage -- Why don't you go make one and see how much of an advantage being PvE grants you in PvP?
lyra_song
Hello! Welcome to the thread. If you read the whole thread you will find that almost all of your ideas have been posted and perhaps debunked already.
I think they were designed to be assymetrical because the PvP chars were never intended to become the choice of pvp players. I think they were designed that way so PvPers would make a PvE char and play the game and build up that PvE char.
Guess what.
With the introduction of a Tournament Edition, those with PvP only chars are at a SEVERE disadvantage. They wont have money. They wont have access to anything outside of the Battle Isles.
These glaring imbalances are even more obvious when these players emerge.
Didn't you read what i wrote?
YES I WANT TO DESTROY ANY DISTINCTION BETWEEN A PVE and PVP CHAR in PVP MODES(functionally, not vanity wise).
They need to be completely equal because of the direction the game is going, its splitting down the middle more permanently, the two player types should not be allowed to have one advantage over another.
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Originally Posted by Cineris
Guess what? There's a fundamental asymmetry between PvP and PvE characters. There's no point in trying to completely "equalize" them -- They were designed to be asymmetrical. Unless you want to erase the distinction between the character types altogether you're not going to achieve parity. If you primarily play PvE there's no point in complaining that PvP characters get to slap on equipment that you would normally have to work to acquire willy-nilly -- Roll up a PvP character. Similarly, if you think PvE characters are getting an undue advantage -- Why don't you go make one and see how much of an advantage being PvE grants you in PvP?
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Guess what.
With the introduction of a Tournament Edition, those with PvP only chars are at a SEVERE disadvantage. They wont have money. They wont have access to anything outside of the Battle Isles.
These glaring imbalances are even more obvious when these players emerge.
Didn't you read what i wrote?
YES I WANT TO DESTROY ANY DISTINCTION BETWEEN A PVE and PVP CHAR in PVP MODES(functionally, not vanity wise).
They need to be completely equal because of the direction the game is going, its splitting down the middle more permanently, the two player types should not be allowed to have one advantage over another.
Thom Bangalter
WTB: mods to lock this thread.
there is no difference between pve and pvp characters besides armor swaps, and vanity issues.
there is no difference between pve and pvp characters besides armor swaps, and vanity issues.
Evilsod
So why do things still exist that could cause imbalance then?
They nerfed the Rockmolder to stop it been 20/20. But left the FFS alone.
They gave PvPers more choice with weapon mods. But shields are still extremely restricted in the way they only have 5(?) different combos whereas PvE shields can have +10 armour vs x mods.
All PvP weapons/items are restricted at req9. PvE players could enter using req7/8 mods, giving the same bonus at a lower req, such as running a tactics shield at req7 on a monk (not saying this happens but its a possibility).
What reason is there to make a PvP char with 2 weapons max when a PvE char can have any number of weapons for any situation? Same goes for armour swaps.
They've known about the last point since the beginning obviously but yet never saught to change it. Not to mention the rare, but still existant unconditional damage modded weapons with no drawback. They may be extremely rare, but having 1 of them in PvP is still an unfair advantage.
They nerfed the Rockmolder to stop it been 20/20. But left the FFS alone.
They gave PvPers more choice with weapon mods. But shields are still extremely restricted in the way they only have 5(?) different combos whereas PvE shields can have +10 armour vs x mods.
All PvP weapons/items are restricted at req9. PvE players could enter using req7/8 mods, giving the same bonus at a lower req, such as running a tactics shield at req7 on a monk (not saying this happens but its a possibility).
What reason is there to make a PvP char with 2 weapons max when a PvE char can have any number of weapons for any situation? Same goes for armour swaps.
They've known about the last point since the beginning obviously but yet never saught to change it. Not to mention the rare, but still existant unconditional damage modded weapons with no drawback. They may be extremely rare, but having 1 of them in PvP is still an unfair advantage.
The truth itself
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Originally Posted by Thom Bangalter
WTB: mods to lock this thread.
there is no difference between pve and pvp characters besides armor swaps, and vanity issues. |
- Special PvE items, such as Nolani wands, HoD, -50 hp item, extra energy staff.
- Lower Req. weapons, 7 and 8, at max damage.
- Alot of more armors, and abillity to change mid-battle.
- Alot of more weapons.
Your right, there is "no" difference :S
Cineris
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Originally Posted by lyra_song
Hello! Welcome to the thread. If you read the whole thread you will find that almost all of your ideas have been posted and perhaps debunked already.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lyra_song
Didn't you read what i wrote?
YES I WANT TO DESTROY ANY DISTINCTION BETWEEN A PVE and PVP CHAR in PVP MODES(functionally, not vanity wise). |
Ultimately, though, that's not even feasible because allowing PvE characters equal-opportunity to purchase items through faction would more than likely destroy the economy.
Does-it-Matter
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Originally Posted by lyra_song
PvP chars have access to ALL unlocked items including all skills, runes, weapon mods etc.
In order for a PvE char to match this, that character has to capture every elite and buy every single skill and buy expensive and overpriced mods if they want to even come close to the versatility in skills that a PvP char has. This is unfair. On the same note, PvE characters have access to a bigger weapon pool, more weapon slots, and the ability to swap armors while PvP chars do not. This is also unfair. |
Call me crazy, but it seems like your flexability of choice.
Do you want something that allows you greater flexability, but requires more work (option A), or do you want ease and simplicity, but has less freedom (option B)?
It's really that simple.
Or do you complain that other people may make more money than you in their jobs, which require more work than yours might?
lyra_song
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Originally Posted by Cineris
I read every post in this thread, thanks. I didn't see that you debunked anything. You merely keep reiterating the same point as though repetition makes it true.
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Of course time spent in the game equals an advantage. Expecting to have the same options available to you when you open up the box as to when you've been playing for 20 hours is absurd. Even first-person shooter games, which are entirely about skill, typically pace a player in the equipment he acquires -- Starting off with every weapon in the arsenal blows the enjoyment of improving and getting different strategic and tactical options. |
Thats where i disagree.
Dont bring up the FPS analogy because thats ridiculous in this sense. We're talking purely PVP. If this was the 1 player mode of a game like Half-Life then yes, id agree, they pace you.
But in the multiplayer modes, even if the various modes require unlocking, Players will still have access to the same equipment, items, weapons, etc.
And yes i reiterate. Its rather annoying to have to reiterate, and its true that doesnt make it any more true. Thats what forum arguements tend to be about. But this is what this is, a war of opinion. So theres really no choice.
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What Guild Wars advocates, and delivers on, is that playing 1000+ hours isn't going to grant you access to gear that's unquestionably better than the gear you can easily acquire on a 20hr run through the game. Is playing for all that extra time going to give you extra resources to get exactly the gear you want for your build? Sure. Ultimately though, those items are no more or less balanced than other easily accessible top-tier items. |
The PVE char has a much much larger and varied pool of weaponry and armor to bring to battle and can SWITCH in the middle of battle, unlike the PVP char, who only has access to 2 weapon slots on the creation screen.
I hate to reiterate, but cant you see this is an imbalanced advantage?
If you have a full back + belt pouch + 2 bags of weapons and armor swaps vs my 4 items (2 offhands, 2 weapons), who has the advantage? who has more adaptability?
The only advantage that the PvP char has is skill selection, and this advantage can be overcome by the PVE char, given enough time.
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What people seem to be advocating here is an extremely selective absolutist principle -- It doesn't seem to bother anyone that a person starts off an account with a limited set of skills and equipment. More and better options have to be unlocked via various means, even though ostensibly this is in violation of the principle that "time spent != advantage." Of course, advocating that people start right out of the box with all skills and equipment unlocked would rightly dismissed as absurd and due to an inappropriate sense of entitlement -- But so is this entire proposal. Despite the repeated assertions that "time spent != advantage" or that a PvPer shouldn't have to "grind" (aka, "play the game") there's remarkably little evidence to back up the assertion that PvE characters gain any advantage worth noting from the perceived imbalance. |
In its current state, even a fully UAX PvP only char has a disadvantage vs a fully loaded PvE character with all skills and secondaries unlocked.
Thats a fact.
Go play the game with a PvP-only char as a warrior. You need a Elemental weapon, a furious, vampiric, maybe a bow or wand for building adrenaline. Have fun with your limited options.
Imo, the people who posted here fall into a some basic categories (hurray for vague overgeneralization)
1) People who agree that the two player types are NOT equal and WANT a change (Thats me)
2) People who agree that the two player types are NOT equal and do NOT WANT a change for one reason or another. (People like my buddy shadowfell)
3) People who DISagree that the two player types are not equal.
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So you're advocating that PvP characters have only a limited pool of equipment, where unlocking one item only allows one instance of that item to be used? It doesn't seem to me that you're in favor of that. |
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Ultimately, though, that's not even feasible because allowing PvE characters equal-opportunity to purchase items through faction would more than likely destroy the economy. |
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Originally Posted by Does-it-Matter
Or do you complain that other people may make more money than you in their jobs, which require more work than yours might?
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PvP is a COMPETITION. There shouldnt be an advantage to any one side, but there is...The advantage goes to PvE simply because it can get everything the PVP character can get. But the PvP character cannot say the same.
Does-it-Matter
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Originally Posted by lyra_song
Bad analogy and a cheap shot.
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Anyways, back to the matter at hand.
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PvP is a COMPETITION. There shouldnt be an advantage to any one side, but there is...The advantage goes to PvE simply because it can get everything the PVP character can get. But the PvP character cannot say the same. |
Show me how a PvE character can get a 20/20 Sundering, +30 Health, etc. weapon if they have no cash.
Show me how I can get the type of shield I want for my PvE character without spending lots of time/money searching.
Show me how I can get the runes (from minor to superior) I want for cheap.
Show me how I can change my armor design without spending a dime.
For every PvE advantage, PvP has one too.
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Whether its versitility or ease / low (or no) cost, they are just elements of the game. A choice you make, like any other. Hell, you can even call it part of your "build."
A basic warrior will have more armor than a basic mesmer. So don't go toe-to-toe with a warrior, if you are a mesmer.
A basic elementalist will have more energy than a warrior. So don't get into "casting matches" with an elementalist, if you are a warrior.
A basic PvE character has more versatility than a PvP character, so don't make extensive armor-swapping, massive item-dependancy builds on a PvP account.
A basic PvP slot allows for more experimentation in a faster amount of time, with endless oppertunities for re-rolling and re-shaping. You can play around with different weapon combinations that would cost you thousands of platinum if you actually had to buy it. So don't try out different proffesions and item/armor combinations on a PvE slot.
Its a choice, it's an element, it's part of the game.
lyra_song
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Originally Posted by Does-it-Matter
Anyways, back to the matter at hand.
Ok, you show me how a player can decide to make a Mesmer (not having one previously created as a primary) and have it ready to go (decently) for PvP in under a minute using a PvE route. Show me how a PvE character can get a 20/20 Sundering, +30 Health, etc. weapon if they have no cash. Show me how I can get the type of shield I want for my PvE character without spending lots of time/money searching. Show me how I can get the runes (from minor to superior) I want for cheap. Show me how I can change my armor design without spending a dime. |
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But with enough time and money spent you can pvp with a PVE char and have an advantage over the PVP char. Thats the point.
No amount of time spent with a PVP char will equal the advantage that a built up PVE character will have.
Time spent DOES equal an advantage.
Which is what i want to change.
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For every PvE advantage, PvP has one too. |
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Whether its versitility or ease / low (or no) cost, they are just elements of the game. A choice you make, like any other. Hell, you can even call it part of your "build." |
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A basic warrior will have more armor than a basic mesmer. So don't go toe-to-toe with a warrior, if you are a mesmer. |
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A basic elementalist will have more energy than a warrior. So don't get into "casting matches" with an elementalist, if you are a warrior. |
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A basic PvE character has more versatility than a PvP character, so don't make extensive armor-swapping, massive item-dependancy builds on a PvP account. A basic PvP slot allows for more experimentation in a faster amount of time, with endless oppertunities for re-rolling and re-shaping. You can play around with different weapon combinations that would cost you thousands of platinum if you actually had to buy it. So don't try out different proffesions and item/armor combinations on a PvE slot. |
As it stands, thats all a PVP slot is good for right now. Experimentation. Completely agree.
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Its a choice, it's an element, it's part of the game. |
If a TE player is to be competitive with a fully loaded PVE player, then the playing field must be level.
Cineris
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Originally Posted by lyra_song
Yes this is true. Time spent does give you an advantage in this game. Quite a few people have already said that, in fact a lot of people have said that and they want to KEEP that advantage.
Thats where i disagree. |
It seems to me that you only want to rectify the disparity between PvP and PvE characters in one respect, conveniently turning a blind eye to disparities in other respects.
I don't actually have a heck of disagreement over your actual proposal. Giving more items and more item choices to PvP characters is fine by me, as is the ability to customize PvP characters more without requiring recreation. But what it comes down to is that this is a request that's not driven by a principle, no matter how much you attempt to portray it as such. It's a request driven by a much more banal, "I want this" mentality and should be evaluated as such.
lyra_song
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Originally Posted by Cineris
It seems to me that you only want to rectify the disparity between PvP and PvE characters in one respect, conveniently turning a blind eye to disparities in other respects.
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But what it comes down to is that this is a request that's not driven by a principle, no matter how much you attempt to portray it as such. It's a request driven by a much more banal, "I want this" mentality and should be evaluated as such. |
This is an imbalanced that has long been in the game and has not been rectified and if Guild Wars PVP seeks to be a viable and true competitive outlet for gamers, then it should be, it must be, it has to be a level playing field.
Does-it-Matter
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Originally Posted by lyra_song
Sorry strawman. You cant.
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No amount of time spent with a PVP char will equal the advantage that a built up PVE character will have. Time spent DOES equal an advantage. |
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PVP characters only has 1 advantage and thats access to ALL the unlocked equipment and skills. But as ive said before, time spent can overcome this advantage with a PVE character. |
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I dont accept that. |
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mantra of persistence, Ineptitude, Clumsiness, Soothing Images, Images of Remorse, Conjure phantasm. Depends, if its a warder or a flash turret, then the warrior is useless anyway. |
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Armor swapping should be disabled. Im not even talking about 1000 items for a PVP character. Im talking 4 weapon slots. Theres only 2 slots in the creation screen. |
If anything, boost up PvP to allow you to customize imported weapons (from PvE) and/or allow you to BUY (emphasis on buy) additional armor to swap.
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With the release of the TE (the PVP only game), a simple "part of the game" no longer applies as an excuse for having an imbalance because we will start getting players who only have the PVP slot and do not have the PVE as a choice to them. |
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I agree with you on many issues, but I disagree with your methods. I don't believe hampering a PvE account in any way is viable. I would rather see a PvP orientation be increased (either adding a weapons customizer and/or armor crafter to battle isles.)
azunder
Locking inventory: /notsigned. Just allow pvp chars to get create a backpack of stuff and it's fine.
Locking armor: /signed
Expand equipment options: /signed
Lyra's crazy idea: /notsigned. Let PvE characters have their fun. If they really, really need to buy get a skill, they can just roll a PvP char.
I disagree, the idea that this proposal is that there should be fair and equal footing during a competition. Yes, there may be some of that "I want this because I'm lazy" mentality in some of the people here, but should the proposal be scrapped because of this? Does it diminish the argument in any way?
Of course not.
Now, why are PvPers so against grind? Why do they want to get all the functional stuff now instead of working for it? After all, you could say that grind is part of any competition. Practicing strategies over and over can look like grind to some. And, in real life, don't athletes "grind" by exercising? What makes this different and acceptable compared to PvE grind? It's because competition (for recreation that is) is about self improvement. Practicing and exercising leads to improvement. This is the greatness we recognize in people who win these competitions, the fact that they were able to make themselves better at something.
A lot of the PvE grind, however, does not contribute to personal improvement. How do chest runs, UW runs and green farming improve your PvP strategy? You could even say that it eats up time that could have been used to practice instead. To some players, it's a barrier that stops them because they can't stand PvE. That's why PvE grind should not give any advantage at all to PvP. It goes against the spirit of competition.
A situation hasn't happened yet where a team wins the world championship because of pumped up PvE chars. But what if it does happen? Shouldn't we prevent it?
@Does-it-Matter
Yes, PvP chars and PvE chars have their own different advantages. But I don't think that it's fair that PvE chars have a bigger advantage compared to PvP chars. Given enough time, the advantage of more items is better than the advantage of fast and free items.
Now, if PvP chars also had the advantage of getting more items, you could say that PvP chars are better than PvE chars since they have everything PvE chars have for free. However, they're missing the one thing that all PvEers love about their PvE char: the ability to PvE.
Locking armor: /signed
Expand equipment options: /signed
Lyra's crazy idea: /notsigned. Let PvE characters have their fun. If they really, really need to buy get a skill, they can just roll a PvP char.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cineris
But what it comes down to is that this is a request that's
not driven by a principle, no matter how much you attempt to portray it as such. It's a request driven by a much more banal, "I want this" mentality and should be evaluated as such. |
Of course not.
Now, why are PvPers so against grind? Why do they want to get all the functional stuff now instead of working for it? After all, you could say that grind is part of any competition. Practicing strategies over and over can look like grind to some. And, in real life, don't athletes "grind" by exercising? What makes this different and acceptable compared to PvE grind? It's because competition (for recreation that is) is about self improvement. Practicing and exercising leads to improvement. This is the greatness we recognize in people who win these competitions, the fact that they were able to make themselves better at something.
A lot of the PvE grind, however, does not contribute to personal improvement. How do chest runs, UW runs and green farming improve your PvP strategy? You could even say that it eats up time that could have been used to practice instead. To some players, it's a barrier that stops them because they can't stand PvE. That's why PvE grind should not give any advantage at all to PvP. It goes against the spirit of competition.
A situation hasn't happened yet where a team wins the world championship because of pumped up PvE chars. But what if it does happen? Shouldn't we prevent it?
@Does-it-Matter
Yes, PvP chars and PvE chars have their own different advantages. But I don't think that it's fair that PvE chars have a bigger advantage compared to PvP chars. Given enough time, the advantage of more items is better than the advantage of fast and free items.
Now, if PvP chars also had the advantage of getting more items, you could say that PvP chars are better than PvE chars since they have everything PvE chars have for free. However, they're missing the one thing that all PvEers love about their PvE char: the ability to PvE.
fallot
Some people seem to be forgetting that anyone can make a PvP character, so you can't be "unfair to PvE characters" by giving PvP-only ones an equal footing to the best in PvE.
On another note, I think MMOs are making people dumber :/
On another note, I think MMOs are making people dumber :/
Red
We meet again, Lyra. Feels like I've danced some of this dance before over here in that other thread... I noticed you've got some useless posts in here, too. I'd offer my condolescenes, but you do it too, so...
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Regarding Lyra's Crazy Idea: YES.
It would likely be a programming nightmare, but for what it is, it's genius. Assuming you -knew- what professions you would run in PvP, or that you bought enough slots to have one of each... you would never have to waste a slot by reserving it for PvP roll-ups again. Your half-raised PvE monk could also double as your PvP monk.... I completely agree on using this idea, allowing PvEs to access for free all unlocked SKILLS ONLY.
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Regarding Lyra's two methods: inventory locking and PvP expanded options: -_-
Well, Inventory Locking is certainly one way to level the playing field. At that point, assuming same weaponry setups, there'd be no way to determine a PvE from a PvP. And of course, this method is most in line with what Izzy appears to have said so many months ago.
However, I actually kind of like the armor switching mid-battle. I made a suggestion in my inventory management thread that would actually work, whether or not inventory lock was instituted. I'm including it here, though, because it can work either in addition to your Locking Inventory and Expand Weaponry Options suggestion... or it can completely replace it.
*obviously, the lack of some weapons for PvP characters -is- an issue in this thread. Those should definitely be offering to PvP characters.
I think I saw something like this suggested a few pages back, but I thought it beared repeating. PvEs can go out and recreate armor at any time.... allow PvPs to do the same?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~
Final addition: time =/= skill
From the official website, on the Gameplay Synopsis page--basically, the "Why you should buy GW and not WoW or EQ" page... http://www.guildwars.com/gameplay/synopsis/
This thread is for working towards the perfect realization of the Skill > Time ideology.
If your post includes the phrase "I worked for hours on my character, so..." or "Why should a PvP characters get this for free when a PvE has to..." or anything of that sort...
... if your post refers to the time spent, then you are instantly going against the game's basic premise. Don't bother submitting your post; it's wrong. If you think Guild Wars' ideology needs to be changed, then go make another thread.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~
Regarding Lyra's Crazy Idea: YES.
It would likely be a programming nightmare, but for what it is, it's genius. Assuming you -knew- what professions you would run in PvP, or that you bought enough slots to have one of each... you would never have to waste a slot by reserving it for PvP roll-ups again. Your half-raised PvE monk could also double as your PvP monk.... I completely agree on using this idea, allowing PvEs to access for free all unlocked SKILLS ONLY.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~
Regarding Lyra's two methods: inventory locking and PvP expanded options: -_-
Well, Inventory Locking is certainly one way to level the playing field. At that point, assuming same weaponry setups, there'd be no way to determine a PvE from a PvP. And of course, this method is most in line with what Izzy appears to have said so many months ago.
However, I actually kind of like the armor switching mid-battle. I made a suggestion in my inventory management thread that would actually work, whether or not inventory lock was instituted. I'm including it here, though, because it can work either in addition to your Locking Inventory and Expand Weaponry Options suggestion... or it can completely replace it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Red
The entire issue here is that, because PvEers have an advantage, there is at least a reason--if not a need--for high-end PvPers to raise up and prepare Roleplaying characters. If they took away the armor advantadge, that would help, but....
... I think a far better solution than that, is to have Armor, Weapon, and Rune merchants be in PvP zones and allow crafting and runes to be purchased ABSOLUTELY FREE. We finally have a secondary profession changer in the Great Temple of Balthazar for PvP characters... why not let them craft new armor, weapons with unlocked mods, and received unlocked unrunes--unlimited, untradable, and completely free. It would in effect be no different than the PvP creation screen... except for the lack of certain Minus Energy weapons and offhands, but that's another discussion*... but it would allow for near instant rerunes, new weapons, new setups, etc. The flexibility of a PvE character who hoards weapons and armor.... on a PvP character. FTW. |
*obviously, the lack of some weapons for PvP characters -is- an issue in this thread. Those should definitely be offering to PvP characters.
I think I saw something like this suggested a few pages back, but I thought it beared repeating. PvEs can go out and recreate armor at any time.... allow PvPs to do the same?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~
Final addition: time =/= skill
From the official website, on the Gameplay Synopsis page--basically, the "Why you should buy GW and not WoW or EQ" page... http://www.guildwars.com/gameplay/synopsis/
Quote:
Originally Posted by ANet
Built for Competition
If you like Player-versus-Player competition, Guild Wars was made for you. In addition to building up a character by undergoing missions and quests, you can choose to create a character specifically for head-to-head PvP competition or guild warfare. The game is designed to reward player skill and teamwork, not time spent playing, so you won't need to spend hundreds of hours leveling up your character to compete. |
This thread is for working towards the perfect realization of the Skill > Time ideology.
If your post includes the phrase "I worked for hours on my character, so..." or "Why should a PvP characters get this for free when a PvE has to..." or anything of that sort...
... if your post refers to the time spent, then you are instantly going against the game's basic premise. Don't bother submitting your post; it's wrong. If you think Guild Wars' ideology needs to be changed, then go make another thread.
Minus Sign
Quote:
Originally Posted by Plastic Cutlery
You people talking about "blah blah blah I grinded I should have an advantage" aren't realizing if I am PURE PVP I grinded for balthazar faction to unlock EVERYTHING, how about that?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glountz
I bought this game, mainly because of A-net's advertisement: "the only game where skill is more important than hours played".
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/rant
/Notsignedever. This is just laziness on the part of the supporters and one more attempt by PvP only players to segregate themselves from PvE play. PvP toons are useful because you can test builds in a matter of minutes without buying a few k worth of stuff to go along with it. You have access to every mod ever unlocked, not just the weapons you lug around in your inventory. You have access to every skill ever bought, capped, or unlocked with balth. And now you want MORE handed to you on a silver platter? I say again; lazy.
Your PvP toon is not hindered by the inability to armor swap. It has abilities equal to any PvE toon; even surpassing in many regards. 2 Automatically customized perfect weapons @ no cost. Free Droks equivalent armor. Free runes. Access to any skill ever unlocked by any character ever.
That’s not saying I don’t have advantages. Because of armor swaps, I’m a little (and I mean very little) bit more flexible in combat.
But I paid out the nose for that flexibility. I play all the game to get "everything". If you only want to play half, expect to miss out on something.
I’ve been PvEing for almost a year now. My PvE toons have a slight advantage over the PvP character you’ve customized with unlocked skills...as they have over any character that's newly Ascended to level 20.
Just like your custom PvP toon has advantage over a pre-made that someone who just bought the game is using. But the guy who just bought the pre-made can still kick my butt—and yours—if he’s good enough. Skill over time played. If he’s better than both of us, my armor swaps won’t matter any more than your extra skill choice/Vampiric mod, etc.
I’ll make it simple: if you want the minor advantages of a PvE toon in PvP play, spend the PvE plat to get them. And if you don’t care about them enough to farm/grind/cap/trade/bust hump to get them? Live without.
In closing: blah blah blah; I grinded for this advantage--squeezed everything I could get out of my PvE--and if you want the same performance so should you.
Red
Quote:
Originally Posted by Minus Sign, abridged but not edited
In closing: blah blah blah; I grinded for this advantage... and if you want the same performance so should you.
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lyra_song
I dont consider starting at lvl 20 and having easy access to max everything to be an advantage at all, since PvE chars can get to lvl 20 and get max weapons and armor also (and much faster in factions, you have to admit).
How is it an advantage when both types have access to the same thing? Even if the pvp account has faster access out of the gate, it doesnt really mean an advantage.
I would compare it to a drag race with a car with high torque and high acceleration but low top speed vs a car with low torque, low acceleration and a very high top speed in a drag race that goes on for 10 miles.
Sure the high acceleration car would be in front of the high top speed car for about...30 seconds. Then the gears would level out on the high acceleration car would read top gear and it wouldnt be able to keep up with the higher top speed car.
A little story:
When my account was young (about 1 month), i PvPed as a monk for my guild in TA quite a lot, using the word of healing pre-made. Now since my account was very young, i didnt have any unlocked superior monk runes or most weapon mods, and that made my monking less than adequate. x.x
I was lvl 20 with max armor, but i had no monk elite skills except what the premade gave me, nor enough balthazar points to unlock new ones because my team kept getting thrashed (this was before the double points thing). Having no unlocked elites, mods, or even most monk skills is a serious disadvantage, even if i was lvl 20 with max armor and max weapons.
-----------------
Im very happy to hear that. ^_^
Please add your input into alternatives to make the two playing styles equal. More options and ideas is good.
Increasing PVP character options is one way, i agree, but i dislike this method.
My ideas are boosting PVE characters one way but restricting them another way. so i guess we'll have to disagree there
-------------------------
Redly: Yes i bumped this thread as a response to yours and other recent PvP/PvE related problem threads that have cropped up recently that my idea has tried to address in its core.
Your problem of armor storage and weapon setup for PVP would be completely relieved by my crazy idea #3 because your PVE char would be able to change armor setups/weapons without eating up actual slots in your inventory.
How is it an advantage when both types have access to the same thing? Even if the pvp account has faster access out of the gate, it doesnt really mean an advantage.
I would compare it to a drag race with a car with high torque and high acceleration but low top speed vs a car with low torque, low acceleration and a very high top speed in a drag race that goes on for 10 miles.
Sure the high acceleration car would be in front of the high top speed car for about...30 seconds. Then the gears would level out on the high acceleration car would read top gear and it wouldnt be able to keep up with the higher top speed car.
A little story:
When my account was young (about 1 month), i PvPed as a monk for my guild in TA quite a lot, using the word of healing pre-made. Now since my account was very young, i didnt have any unlocked superior monk runes or most weapon mods, and that made my monking less than adequate. x.x
I was lvl 20 with max armor, but i had no monk elite skills except what the premade gave me, nor enough balthazar points to unlock new ones because my team kept getting thrashed (this was before the double points thing). Having no unlocked elites, mods, or even most monk skills is a serious disadvantage, even if i was lvl 20 with max armor and max weapons.
-----------------
Quote:
Originally Posted by Does-it-Matter
I agree with you on many issues, but I disagree with your methods. I don't believe hampering a PvE account in any way is viable. I would rather see a PvP orientation be increased (either adding a weapons customizer and/or armor crafter to battle isles.)
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Please add your input into alternatives to make the two playing styles equal. More options and ideas is good.
Increasing PVP character options is one way, i agree, but i dislike this method.
My ideas are boosting PVE characters one way but restricting them another way. so i guess we'll have to disagree there
-------------------------
Redly: Yes i bumped this thread as a response to yours and other recent PvP/PvE related problem threads that have cropped up recently that my idea has tried to address in its core.
Your problem of armor storage and weapon setup for PVP would be completely relieved by my crazy idea #3 because your PVE char would be able to change armor setups/weapons without eating up actual slots in your inventory.
Forrin
Signed, then I would finally be able to stop playing PvE.
It has bothered me for a long time that I'm forced to play a part of this game I really don't enjoy so I don't have a disadvantage in the part that I do enjoy.
It has bothered me for a long time that I'm forced to play a part of this game I really don't enjoy so I don't have a disadvantage in the part that I do enjoy.
Red
Quote:
Originally Posted by lyra_song
I would compare it to a drag race with a car with high torque and high acceleration but low top speed vs a car with low torque, low acceleration and a very high top speed in a drag race that goes on for 10 miles. Sure the high acceleration car would be in front of the high top speed car for about...30 seconds. Then the gears would level out on the high acceleration car would read top gear and it wouldnt be able to keep up with the higher top speed car.
------------------------- Redly: Your problem of armor storage and weapon setup for PVP would be completely relieved by my crazy idea #3 because your PVE char would be able to change armor setups/weapons without eating up actual slots in your inventory. |
About the crazy idea.... while letting PvEers use PvP armor in those zones is a neat idea, it would no doubt be a programming nightmare... and either way, whether they want to do that or not, why not fix the problem more immediately. Give us the PvP free armor/weapon/run/mod merchants NOW, as a quick fix while we wait a more permanent solution.
Minus Sign
Quote:
Originally Posted by Redly
Self-pwnd imo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lyra_song
I dont consider starting at lvl 20 and having easy access to max everything to be an advantage at all, since PvE chars can get to lvl 20 and get max weapons and armor also (and much faster in factions, you have to admit).
How is it an advantage when both types have access to the same thing? Even if the pvp account has faster access out of the gate, it doesnt really mean an advantage. |
No; you don't. You respec in a minute or two in the character creation screen and you're done. You didn't spend hours farming for your armor, and you don't want to. I get that. It can be a pain in the rear. But to expect the advantages of grind without grind is--quite frankly--a little silly.
As important: PvE armor costs money or storage. Depending on situation, both can be equally valuable. PvP is an open slot on your account. PvE tooned PvPers have to make these calls. And we do. Do I want yet another armor set for yet another build? Do I need to get buy these mods? How much is it going to cost me--be it just buying the equipement I need or selling old items (another question: do I customize this weapon that is worth 100s of plat? Or do I accept a loss on damage in PvP so I don't have to sell this item to a trader for a few 100 gold?) to make room for new ones--to remain flexible. Doing that a few times can become a very expensive habit.
There are downsides to running PvE characters in the PvP environment. Its time consuming, expensive, and sometimes a little bit hard. Thats part of the challenge of the game for me. learn a build in PvP, find all its tweeks, its twists and wants, and set it up in a PvE toon so that I can play it to greatest effect in all situations. Take that away, this game becomes boring; the expense of PvE armor and weapons making older toons useless. Frankly: why run PvE toons in PvP when I already have UAS and this? Who has the advantage now? What use is a PvE toon when you make them "PvP"? Whats easier to farm? balth faction alone, or everything else. You know the answer. You know that answer because you don't want to be forced to grind a PvE toon into PvP servicability. Hince this idea of yours.
I've explained that as best I can--twice now. If you can't or don't want to see that, then I can't help you. Onward:
I submit to you, from your story, that your early failings had less to do with your equipment and more to do with your inexpierence. Point of fact, there are many monks that use no major or superior runes beyond vigor. Actually, one of the prime uses of armor swaps is to remove superior runed armor when in combat with spike teams, increasing your HP to assist the infuser.
Counter story: my guild needed a warrior for a KD build we wanted to try. Rather than spend large quantities of balth faction unlocking all the required skills on a toon he rarely plays, a guildie used the shock warrior template from the premade and a few tweeks of our own design. He made no complaints about how inferiror that warrior was to others he had played; I noticed no difference between his playing ability on a PvP only toon and his normal PvE toons. Its not the first time he's run warrior builds--nor the last.
This was a "skilled" player running a premade toon. Put that in the hands of a newb; we see a different result. Put MY toons in the hands of a 1 month old newb and we'd see different results too.
Lastly; about your example: hardly apt I'm afraid. Both drivers are using their whole car.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Minus Sign
I play all the game to get "everything". If you only want to play half, expect to miss out on something.
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Red
Quote:
Originally Posted by Minus Sign
Someone has no grasp of sarcasm. That, or he doesn't read a post through before commenting.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Minus Sign
This is just laziness on the part of the supporters and one more attempt by PvP only players to segregate themselves from PvE play.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Minus Sign
Your PvP toon is not hindered by the inability to armor swap.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Minus Sign
But I paid out the nose for that flexibility. I play all the game to get "everything".
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Minus Sign
If he’s better than both of us, my armor swaps won’t matter any more than your extra skill choice/Vampiric mod, etc.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Minus Sign, edited
if you want the minor advantages of a PvE toon in PvP play, spend the PvE plat (read: grind) to get them.
|
PvP toons aren't hindered? Completely wrong. When my monk can enter battle with a Superior Divine Favor rune, and switch to a minor in case of DP... that is a significant advantage. About 75 HP of advantage imo.
You paying out the nose for flexibility shouldn't be an issue. That sounds like grind to me; and we're not supposed to have to grind in Guild Wars.
And as far as weapon swaps not making a difference? Tell that to the PvP character who took a 20/20 staff in one set, and a +30/-2 set for spikes in the other... and then gets stuck in one of the terrain glitches of Guild Wars. Without a vamp weapon, your 'better player' now can not attack anyone outside his range, and contributes nothing beyond that. All you can do is beg the other team to kill him.
Honestly? Accusing me of lacking comprehension skills? Try writing a relevant thought to comprehend and maybe it won't be an issue.
Minus Sign
Quote:
Originally Posted by Redly
Laziness? Being able to roll a PvP isn't an add-on; it's a selling point for this game.
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Quote:
And, some people just don't LIKE the PvE portion of Guild Wars, and buy it specifically for the PvP. It's not being lazy; it's called playing the game you like... and anyone who wants to argue that PvE and PvP are truly the same game needs to try a bit more PvP. |
I PLAY ALL THE GAME TO GET "EVERYTHING". IF YOU ONLY WANT TO PLAY HALF, EXPECT TO MISS OUT ON SOMETHING.
PvE and PvP exist together. Live with it.
Quote:
PvP toons aren't hindered? Completely wrong. When my monk can enter battle with a Superior Divine Favor rune, and switch to a minor in case of DP... that is a significant advantage. About 75 HP of advantage imo. |
Quote:
You paying out the nose for flexibility shouldn't be an issue. That sounds like grind to me; and we're not supposed to have to grind in Guild Wars. |
This isn't Halo and we're not all the MC. This is a Role Playing Game catering to multiple sectors of players and types of play.
Quote:
And as far as weapon swaps not making a difference? Tell that to the PvP character who took a 20/20 staff in one set, and a +30/-2 set for spikes in the other... and then gets stuck in one of the terrain glitches of Guild Wars. Without a vamp weapon, your 'better player' now can not attack anyone outside his range, and contributes nothing beyond that. All you can do is beg the other team to kill him. |
Quote:
Honestly? Accusing me of lacking comprehension skills? Try writing a relevant thought to comprehend and maybe it won't be an issue. |
lyra_song
Quote:
Originally Posted by Minus Sign
Of course you don't lyra_song, else we wouldn't be having this discussion. Out of the gate and Cheap as free are two entirely different things. Does your PvP character pay for any of the perfect modded weapons you use? Only if they're bought in PvE. Does your PvP character have to farm for craft materials, money, runes et al to gain his armor? What if the rune setup you're using doesn't work with the build you want to run? Do you need another to salvage your runes and respec, costing more money? Do you need to carry half a dozen pieces of off hand armor with you--after purchase--to make sure when you respec that you can you have all you need?
No; you don't. You respec in a minute or two in the character creation screen and you're done. |
I have 8 slots. I have one of each character type except the Assassin, that slot is my PvP. My warrior carries 4 armor sets and has at least 6-8 of each weapon type (hammer/axe/sword) + Stonefists + various helmets + my farming gear and 1 of each kind of shield (enchanted, hexed, stance and -5(20%) ). My ranger carriers at least 12 bows, including the candycane bow when shes a trapper, another imbalanced item btw. My monk currently only has 2 armor sets, but im farming money to buy another +5 one handed weapon for my mesmer, who btw carries 2 armor sets. Im building up my Ele and Necromancer for PvP, so in the meantime, ill be using PvP slot for those functions. My ritualist is gonna be for farming only.
Dont presume to tell me how i play the game. Thanks. I use my PVE characters to PVP.
Quote:
You didn't spend hours farming for your armor, and you don't want to. I get that. It can be a pain in the rear. But to expect the advantages of grind without grind is--quite frankly--a little silly. |
Quote:
As important: PvE armor costs money or storage. Depending on situation, both can be equally valuable. PvP is an open slot on your account. PvE tooned PvPers have to make these calls. And we do. Do I want yet another armor set for yet another build? Do I need to get buy these mods? How much is it going to cost me--be it just buying the equipement I need or selling old items (another question: do I customize this weapon that is worth 100s of plat? Or do I accept a loss on damage in PvP so I don't have to sell this item to a trader for a few 100 gold?) to make room for new ones--to remain flexible. Doing that a few times can become a very expensive habit. |
Quote:
There are downsides to running PvE characters in the PvP environment. Its time consuming, expensive, and sometimes a little bit hard. Thats part of the challenge of the game for me. learn a build in PvP, find all its tweeks, its twists and wants, and set it up in a PvE toon so that I can play it to greatest effect in all situations. |
Quote:
Take that away, this game becomes boring; the expense of PvE armor and weapons making older toons useless. Frankly: why run PvE toons in PvP when I already have UAS and this? Who has the advantage now? What use is a PvE toon when you make them "PvP"? Whats easier to farm? balth faction alone, or everything else. You know the answer. |
Quote:
You know that answer because you don't want to be forced to grind a PvE toon into PvP servicability. Hince this idea of yours. |
Quote:
I've explained that as best I can--twice now. If you can't or don't want to see that, then I can't help you. |
Quote:
I submit to you, from your story, that your early failings had less to do with your equipment and more to do with your inexpierence. Point of fact, there are many monks that use no major or superior runes beyond vigor. Actually, one of the prime uses of armor swaps is to remove superior runed armor when in combat with spike teams, increasing your HP to assist the infuser. |
Having access to lvl 20, max armor, max weapons etc is not an advantage. The instant access isnt so magical.
If i had a PVE character that was lvl 20, max armor, max weapons, i would still have been a newb.
Quote:
Counter story: my guild needed a warrior for a KD build we wanted to try. Rather than spend large quantities of balth faction unlocking all the required skills on a toon he rarely plays, a guildie used the shock warrior template from the premade and a few tweeks of our own design. He made no complaints about how inferiror that warrior was to others he had played; I noticed no difference between his playing ability on a PvP only toon and his normal PvE toons. Its not the first time he's run warrior builds--nor the last. |
Quote:
This was a "skilled" player running a premade toon. Put that in the hands of a newb; we see a different result. Put MY toons in the hands of a 1 month old newb and we'd see different results too. |
Quote:
Lastly; about your example: hardly apt I'm afraid. Both drivers are using their whole car. |
How about a small twin turbo vs a larger turbo that takes longer to spool up?
Direct injected? Nitrous? Aluminum or fiberglass frame? LSD? Smaller wheels accelerate faster than larger wheels too...Dont forget different octane mixes.
Sure we could both be using our whole cars, but they can perform quite differently.
Quote:
Not only expect it. Accept it. Counter that argument to my satisfaction and I'll support this. Until then; I do not endorse PvP segregation ever. Whether intended or not, this is PvP segregation on a nuclear scale. |
Im trying to make it so a PVE toon and a PVP toon makes no difference whatsoever in the outcome of a match except how pretty the corpse will be.
Red
Quote:
Originally Posted by Minus Sign
PvE and PvP exist together. Live with it.
Skill is greater than time played does not translate into zero grind. Anet wants people to have an attachment to their characters. They want people to have an attachment to this game. Thats one way they make money. This isn't Halo and we're not all the MC. This is a Role Playing Game catering to multiple sectors of players and types of play. |
20/20 set, 30/-2 set, and HP+ set (HP+30 offhand, and possible HP+30 sword) for spikes.
Three very, very legitmate GvG weapon sets. And a PvP can only roll up two.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~
As for the rest of your post, about PvP and PvE existing together, inseperable, designed that way by ANet....
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10041518
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gaile Gray
In the near future, a purchase of Prophecies will not be required to purchase the Prophecies All-Profession Skill Unlock Pack. Those who purchase this pack will be able to create Prophecies PvP characters and play PvP without purchasing the game itself. At that time, we'll rename the pack to something like Guild Wars Prophecies PvP Edition.
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Sli Ander
Quote:
Originally Posted by Redly
Laziness? Being able to roll a PvP isn't an add-on; it's a selling point for this game. And, some people just don't LIKE the PvE portion of Guild Wars, and buy it specifically for the PvP. It's not being lazy; it's called playing the game you like... and anyone who wants to argue that PvE and PvP are truly the same game needs to try a bit more PvP. PvP toons aren't hindered? Completely wrong. When my monk can enter battle with a Superior Divine Favor rune, and switch to a minor in case of DP... that is a significant advantage. About 75 HP of advantage imo. You paying out the nose for flexibility shouldn't be an issue. That sounds like grind to me; and we're not supposed to have to grind in Guild Wars. And as far as weapon swaps not making a difference? Tell that to the PvP character who took a 20/20 staff in one set, and a +30/-2 set for spikes in the other... and then gets stuck in one of the terrain glitches of Guild Wars. Without a vamp weapon, your 'better player' now can not attack anyone outside his range, and contributes nothing beyond that. All you can do is beg the other team to kill him. Honestly? Accusing me of lacking comprehension skills? Try writing a relevant thought to comprehend and maybe it won't be an issue. |
The selling point for pvp is that you can walk in and instantly play a lvl 20 with 2 perfect weapons, etc, etc, blah blah blah. Playing a pve player in pvp (just for the armor swaps/weapon swaps) is just like FOW armor. It's not necessary to be competitive(especially with the skill unlock packs now). As was stated earlier, if someone walks in with a lvl 20 premade, he can still beat you if he is more skilled. Being a pve with armor swaps wouldn't make much difference. This is like FOW armor in this: If you want that bonus benefit(read: If you want that special looking armor) then you're going to have to play pve to earn it(read: you're going to have to earn it). Playing a pvp instant lvl 20 in no way gimps your ability to play pvp if you have enough skill. If you want the extra stuff, be prepared to work for it.
/edit /sigh stayed and read back anyway. I like to think of the game realistically. so I'll sign for locking against armor switching for now. It should raise the skill level of the players if they can't just switch in the middle of nowhere.
lyra_song
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sli Ander
Playing a pvp instant lvl 20 in no way gimps your ability to play pvp if you have enough skill.
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Quote:
If you want the extra stuff, be prepared to work for it. |
Minus Sign
Quote:
Originally Posted by lyra_song
Please dont tell me how I play the game.
I have 8 slots. I have one of each character type except the Assassin, that slot is my PvP. My warrior carries 4 armor sets and has at least 6-8 of each weapon type (hammer/axe/sword) + Stonefists + various helmets + my farming gear and 1 of each kind of shield (enchanted, hexed, stance and -5(20%) ). My ranger carriers at least 12 bows, including the candycane bow when shes a trapper, another imbalanced item btw. My monk currently only has 2 armor sets, but im farming money to buy another +5 one handed weapon for my mesmer, who btw carries 2 armor sets. Im building up my Ele and Necromancer for PvP, so in the meantime, ill be using PvP slot for those functions. My ritualist is gonna be for farming only. Dont presume to tell me how i play the game. Thanks. I use my PVE characters to PVP. |
Quote:
I do farm. I farm mindlessly. But i actually find it fun.....And really i shouldnt have any advantage. |
Quote:
Yes i do use my PvP slot to test out rune setups. But i dont use it in the long run because its inferior to my PvE characters. You sure got that right. But anything for an advantage right? |
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To me farming Balth or Luxon or Kurzick faction OR Gold or Materials is all the same. Depends on what my mood is. Its one game to me. |
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Sorry, im still confused. |
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Yes i was a newb. But you fail to see the reason i put it up. Which was: Having access to lvl 20, max armor, max weapons etc is not an advantage. The instant access isnt so magical. If i had a PVE character that was lvl 20, max armor, max weapons, i would still have been a newb. |
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Thats great. Where was he when the templates were garbage? |
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Yes. Thats how it should be. Skill SHOULD determine who is the winner. Isn't that the point? |
To quote Redly: GG
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Sure we could both be using our whole cars, but they can perform quite differently. |
And before you try equating Guild Wars to Nascar: every build is different. One BL is not the same as the next one. Tweeks are a name of the game and a way to find edge. As I've stated in other threads if you want true balance make everyone a Whammo with no skillbars and wands.
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LOL. PvP segregation?!!?! I'm trying to UNITE the two player types. Im trying to make it so a PVE toon and a PVP toon makes no difference whatsoever in the outcome of a match except how pretty the corpse will be. |
*reads Redly's post* Note to self:...no. Don't. You can't heal stupid Minus, so don't try...
lyra_song
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Originally Posted by Minus Sign
Conceeded. I appologise for making broad generalizations and adding you to them. Since there have been several people in this thread taking the "I PvP only" argument, I hope you can forgive the error.
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Why not? You worked for that advantage when others choose not to. Whether you enjoyed that work or not is nonissue. You did something they didn't. |
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No actually. Manys the time when an item combination was too expensive for me to respec a PvE toon to run with it. When that happens, I run a PvP toon and fill out the gaps as best I can. |
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Too bad. The primary argument has been summated 3 times now, the last time in bold italics and underline. You can't have missed it without concious effort. If you cannot refute it, accept it as a loss. After this post, I no longer give you the option to ignore it. |
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And skill does, as the story in that post showed. Not only is that how it should be; that it how it is. |
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Last time: you may not be PvP only, but many of your supporters are. Your very analogy fails because you refuse to accept that I was talking about PvP only play style in the quote. Since they are your supporters, they become part of your argument whether you want them to be or not. I direct you to the first quote on the first post of mine in this thread. |
There will be players who have no choice but PVP only when they release the Tournment Edition/PvP-Only version of Prophecies.
Haven't I been saying that?
They will only have the PVP part of the game. No PVE. How is fair for them?
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If you won't let it this go; fine. How much does an Inline V6 twin turbo w/NOS, stage 3 weight reduction, stand alone fuel managment system on custom wheels go for? How much to build, maintain, and run? A person who has built a machine like that is going to be plenty pissed off when another racer goes to the car manufacturer and says "Hey man! That car can go faster than mine. Rip out his racing chip and stick this stock one back in." I don't know about you but any fool who tries to downgrade my ride when I have her that pumped is going to get buckshot inserted somewhere. |
Second. Weaker cars are given a head start. I believe its usually 3 car lengths. To make things fair. .-. Usually doesnt help because the superior equipment usually wins unless the driver is an idiot and misshifts and kills the engine.
It's like boxing. A 200 lb fighter would not be allowed to fight a 150 lb fighter. Thats just...mean.
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And before you try equating Guild Wars to Nascar: every build is different. One BL is not the same as the next one. Tweeks are a name of the game and a way to find edge. As I've stated in other threads if you want true balance make everyone a Whammo with no skillbars and wands. |
That would be balanced but really boring.
Heres how i see it. We all have access to the same weapons. same skills. same professions. same armors. same guild halls. No one has access to more. No one has access to less. Same choices for everyone. Its your choices that will determine if you win or lose.
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You are failing. Your suggestions will push PvE toons out of PvP. If you can't see that, too bad. |
I could essentially make a lvl 5 PVE Ranger, then go to Battle Isle, and poof, im lvl 20 with max armor with my stats of choosing and my weapons of choice and access to ALL the skills and runes and mods ive unlocked.
Now wouldnt that be cool?
Minus Sign
1. I conceed that PvE characters have advantages to PvP characters, as PvP has advantages thanks to balth faction and free customization. I state unequivicolly that PvE advantages are earned through time and money spent. I do not state in any way that those advantages are game breaking between players, nor that the outcome of a match will ever be decided because of armor swaps.
2. As is stated so often in so many threads about UAS and the new PuPs: you always have a choice (and if you believe that, I'll tell you another). No, I don't think it would be cool for lvl 5s to pop into arenas. I'd rather keep them locked out and in the low level arenas where they belong.
3. We already have access to the same armor, weapons, skills, etc. Can PvP characters equip PvE weapons? Can they equip PvE purchased runes?
4. If you've revived this thread for the sake of PvP only players then you must conceed that they are only playing half a game. It is for them to deal with the shortcomings of their decision not to play PvE, not force those who play the whole game down to their level. You still have not discounted this primary argument. Do you intend to?
5. Your continued attempts at a running analogy between cars not withstanding, you sidestep my point completely. How would the owner of a tweeked car react if you came to him and asked him to let the manufacturers strip out all his addons when he races it? Thats what you're asking Anet to do to my PvE toon. Thats what you are asking me to accept.
2. As is stated so often in so many threads about UAS and the new PuPs: you always have a choice (and if you believe that, I'll tell you another). No, I don't think it would be cool for lvl 5s to pop into arenas. I'd rather keep them locked out and in the low level arenas where they belong.
3. We already have access to the same armor, weapons, skills, etc. Can PvP characters equip PvE weapons? Can they equip PvE purchased runes?
4. If you've revived this thread for the sake of PvP only players then you must conceed that they are only playing half a game. It is for them to deal with the shortcomings of their decision not to play PvE, not force those who play the whole game down to their level. You still have not discounted this primary argument. Do you intend to?
5. Your continued attempts at a running analogy between cars not withstanding, you sidestep my point completely. How would the owner of a tweeked car react if you came to him and asked him to let the manufacturers strip out all his addons when he races it? Thats what you're asking Anet to do to my PvE toon. Thats what you are asking me to accept.
Red
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Originally Posted by Minus Sign
4. If you've revived this thread for the sake of PvP only players then you must conceed that they are only playing half a game. It is for them to deal with the shortcomings of their decision not to play PvE, not force those who play the whole game down to their level. You still have not discounted the primary argument. Do you intend to?
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Originally Posted by Lyra
The PVP only players are a part of my arguement. They are the reason i bumped this thread. This thread is more relevant than ever because of Anet's recent announcements.
There will be players who have no choice but PVP only when they release the Tournment Edition/PvP-Only version of Prophecies. Haven't I been saying that? They will only have the PVP part of the game. No PVE. How is fair for them? |
Notice: by making a PvP edition, that has indeed become a legitmate game in and of itself--remember, ANet does not make Guild Wars expansions, they make stand-alones. [insert invitation to start a whole new thread about THAT matter]
Players who purchase the Tournament Edition, as it is being called by some IRCers, will indeed be PLAYING THEIR ENTIRE GAME, YET STILL MISSING OUT ON SOMETHING
I'm afraid your "half the game" justification begins to fall apart at that point.
Minus Sign
Open eyes shut mouth and read 2 Redly. Then see 5 for counter and re-read 4 for emphasis.
EternalTempest
I don't think PvE should be altered
But I would expand PvP to allow multiple sets of armor and weapons to be on par with a PvE character.
But I would expand PvP to allow multiple sets of armor and weapons to be on par with a PvE character.