Change to Heroes' Ascent

mrdbeau

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Jun 2005

Sons of Narnia

P/

05 Oct 2006 at 00:43 - 241
Quote:
Originally Posted by allience
mrdbeau, i read your post and i just can't agree with ur argument. just think for a bit, in nightfall, we'll have a total of 10 professions to chose from. shrinking the party to 6 only LIMITS possibilities to make a creative and versatile build. we can only chose 48 skills in total.
This has already been mentioned and dismissed. The idea that number of professions should equal the number of slots in a team (or what have you) is ridiculous. The number of professions has absolutely no relation to the possibilities of a team build, whether that be in 8v8, 6v6, 22v22, or any other size. In fact, the converse argument could be made that with a smaller party size, more unique builds will have to be thought of because it will be harder to fit a strong synergy in a team itself with a limited number of slots. I'm not necessarily going to make that argument, because I do not believe the number of slots in a team has a correlation with build possibilities on a competitive level. On the other hand, I am certain that with a smaller number of slots in a team, it is much easier to make counters to cookie cutter FOTM builds.

Quote:
-at least 2 chars will have to be some sort of healers (boon prots any1?)
-1 char needs to be some support/dmg because we need extra counter to vim/smite/condition
-this leaves us with 4 offensive chars which is 32 skills (3 are rez sig for sure).
my point is, u just can't experiment much with 32 skills. so this change in my opinion can't bring out the best in ppl. it will only make some easy fame for gimmick builds.
You obviously haven't played too much 4v4, or either haven't thought it through very much. My guild placed 3rd in the Gencon 4v4 Sealed Tournament, so I know my 4v4 pretty well. The difference between 4v4 and 6v6 is much less, in my opinion, than the difference in 8v8 and 6v6. More of a "4v4 approach" needs to be taken in 6v6. You're not going to be able to fit everything you want in, that's a given. That's just the way it goes, but that doesn't mean you cannot make a very strong build that is going to be good against 90% of what you will likely see. Additionally, being forced to pick a SMALLER number of skills is going to INCREASE the number of builds because you simply cannot plan for any and everything you will see. Period.

Quote:
also it's certain that experienced pvp players will adapt to the change, but that doesn't mean they'll enjoy it. personally i was looking forward to making some exciting and challenging builds but now i'll have to conform to something simple because i'm limited to 48 skills.
If you really think you can't make "exciting and challenging builds" in 6v6, but you can in 8v8, then I really wonder what you're thinking. The team size is absolutely, 100% irrelevant to the creation of good, balanced, or even gimmicky builds. The only thing that build size influences is the number of builds that can be sustained in a competitive environment as well as the ability of FOTM builds to hang around.

Quote:
you keep saying iway is not letting ppl enjoy HA and it's funny that you didn't notice iway died about a month ago. since the double fame event and the nerf of edge bomb iway got scarce. and after the latest skill update, i've rarely seen iway groups. maybe u're confusing iway with VIM, which indeed has been increasing. and i'll assure you, u'll see a lot more vim/modded vim once 6v6 is implemented.
IWAY is more of a generic term for "crap in HA" than the build itself. VIM and Modded VIM is going to be very weak in 6v6. It will probably be as weak as spike is in 4v4. Rspike in 4v4 is decent, but any decent team will beat it. It's likely VIM will gain much the same status in 6v6.

Quote:
about new players, they'll have the same problem as now. there will always be rank discrimination. and franky new comers just mean free fame for old players who obviously won't have any trouble running some smite build. pld players are quite happy to see new ppl because they are quite east to beat while waching tv..
This was already addressed: "unfortunately, I doubt 6v6 will be any less "elitist" or "competitive" than HA is now, because let's face it, anytime you are winning any kind of reward (i.e. fame), people are going to be tools. Additionally, you are going to still have the r9+ only groups and so on, but by virtue of many more people playing HA (which, there absolutely WILL be), it will be much easier to get a PUG unranked group or a low ranked group."

Quote:
overall this change won't enchance the enjoiment factor for new players and it won't allow old players to be creative. i simply see this as an act of lazyness fron anet's part to make 2 separate arenas. i hope this post makes u see a more realistic point of view.
It is going to enhance the enjoyment of new players by virtue of allowing them to actually get a decent unranked PUG group without having to wait 30 minutes for it to form. Old players are going to have PLENTY of opportunities to be creative if they want to be. It simply isn't about realism or optimism/pessimism; it's about waiting, trying it out, and seeing that it's truly going to be a better format.

Quote:
Originally Posted by supaet
Again, I don't see how the new 6v6 can draw more player than the current 8v8. sure it's fresh, but after two weeks, it'll be the same. The problems that plague 8v8 will plague 6v6 the same way. If you say it's easier to get a team of 6, I say it's easier for team of 6 to fill up and you're screwed. If you say you have only 5 friends/small guild, i say, so you dont want any new friends/guild members joining you? So tell me, how does this change make hoh any better? no iway? there's vimway, you can stil spike with 6 necros. Please answer my question, for those that want to get rid of the 8v8 hoh. Thanks
6v6 will draw more people for many reasons:
1) Smaller time to get a party together. This is obvious.
2) More builds will be used. Again, this seems obvious to me, but some people disagree. That's fine, but we'll find out in 4 days.
3) Small guilds will actually be better off. Now they only need 6 instead of 8 to HA as a guild. If you have a larger guild, run to HA teams.
4) Spike with 6 necros if the other team has 2 monks will not be nearly as easy as you seem to think. Rspike with 4 rangers in 4v4 is garbage. They can kill someone if your monk isn't on the ball, but with a good monk, it's over. You gain two spikers and a good nec spike will still kill someone, but it will be easily countered. VIMway will go the way of the dodo within a few weeks.

Let me also point out that the only way for HA to get any smaller in terms of population is for the American districts to be completely empty.

Quote:
I'm 5. but I have different opions for those 5 groups,
1. if you cant find a group now, you cant find a group in 6v6. simple it's your problem.

2. This group have no problem since all they care about is fame, if you can get 5000 fame in 8v8, you hav eno problem getting your share in 6v6

3. Same as 2, if you GROUP can pwn people in hoh now, you have no problem pwning people in 6v6 regardless of builds, new gimmick builds will come up

4. You will not like it after 2-3 monthes. They you will ask for bringing back 8v8 or 5v5 7v7 or 1v1

5. UNITE and get ANET to give us both options!
1) How will you not be able to find a group more easily when there will be SMALLER parties and more options for decent builds?
2) If you play mindless cookie cutter builds to get your fame now, you can bet that's going to get a lot harder with 6v6.
3) See 2.
4) If it stays fresh, then you're wrong.
5) Not going to happen, so no point in worrying about it.

Quote:
As for 6v6 makes things less confusing, the hoh is made to be complicated, that's why you need vent/ts, that's why newbies cannot run balance, they only can run iway. All in all, 8v8 in gw is as balance as it can be. How you want to play it is your choice. I'm totally for 6v6. But I'm 100% against taking away 8v8 hoh. I will still play the game though, COME ON you ELITE pvers!! I'll pwn you with vimway. Then you will all go back to your own pve world. no offense :-)
The idea that HA should be confusing and complicated is elitist drivel. Attitudes like that are the reason newcomers to the game get driven out of HA.


"My point is you will need to think differently to succeed in 6v6 HA. You can't use the same ideas that worked well in 8v8."

Great point boofhead, thanks.

KitsunE81

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Nov 2005

Netherlands, The

Bambis Dont Say [Meow]

Me/

05 Oct 2006 at 00:44 - 242
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boofhead
IWAY: 6 man IWAY is gimped, you can just kite the warriors now.
Spike: 6 man spike is either not enough to kill someone, or no defense -> they are easier to kill.
Relic: Bring a speed boost, you can survive without the rest
Altar: Less players per team means less holding ability means easier to cap. That was my experience in the 6v6 weekend.

My point is you will need to think differently to succeed in 6v6 HA. You can't use the same ideas that worked well in 8v8.
My point was that you need counters to prevent yourself from getting killed to easily from certain skills/builds/tactics, those were just examples.

Byzantine

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Jul 2006

Abstract Ambition [Fame]

W/

05 Oct 2006 at 01:03 - 243
This is hilarious. The first time they changed HA people complained that there wasnt any creativity. Then after they put it back all you IWAY noobs went straight back to IWAY. Im rank0 and my guild rarely plays HOH and we still got to atleast courtyard every time. HA isnt high level pvp and there really isnt any meta game, just the same old builds. Its more like rock em sock em robots. Now all the pugs can get into groups easier. Its a great change.

cry of the rapture

cry of the rapture

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Aug 2006

Kiting a shock axe

guildless again....

Mo/Me

05 Oct 2006 at 01:12 - 244
Quote:
Originally Posted by Byzantine
This is hilarious. The first time they changed HA people complained that there wasnt any creativity. Then after they put it back all you IWAY noobs went straight back to IWAY. Im rank0 and my guild rarely plays HOH and we still got to atleast courtyard every time. HA isnt high level pvp and there really isnt any meta game, just the same old builds. Its more like rock em sock em robots. Now all the pugs can get into groups easier. Its a great change.
There are many HA guilds that do twists to balances and give it those variations and advantages. PUGs however, do generally play the same damn build over and over again (this is why i rarely PUG), not to mention they're outdated/just plain crap builds (vim, smite nowadays for example)

shardfenix

shardfenix

Banned

Join Date: Dec 2005

Il Power Overwhelming Il [HaX]

05 Oct 2006 at 01:57 - 245
If all the new maps work perfectly, and no bugs are introduced, I will salvage my FoW armor.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Guildwars.com update page
  • Fixed a bug that was introduced in a previous update which prevented ghostly heroes from accepting relics in Unholy Temples.
I want a DP map. not the DP that happens on courtyard when you get ganked.

unmatchedfury

unmatchedfury

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jul 2006

Cookie Cutter [FTW]

05 Oct 2006 at 03:04 - 246
Quote:
Originally Posted by Evilsod
6v6 HA sucked... i don't play HA often but i've never seen so many Vimway or Smite teams in my life. The variation is gonna be.... great? What the hell is a Paragon supposed to do? Or a Ritualist? Half there skills are supportive, theres just no place for them anymore.

If i was playing this game for PvP HA only... i'd quit. This change is just lame.
Lol that right. rits are useless. and so are paragons because you don't know how to play them..

some_dude_91

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Jun 2006

woo

LOD

W/

05 Oct 2006 at 04:19 - 247
how about a 6v6 area and a 8v8 area? and the 6v6 area wouldnt need HoH. it could just have fame. or whatever.

supaet

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Jul 2006

05 Oct 2006 at 04:34 - 248
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrdbeau
6v6 will draw more people for many reasons:
1) Smaller time to get a party together. This is obvious.
2) More builds will be used. Again, this seems obvious to me, but some people disagree. That's fine, but we'll find out in 4 days.
3) Small guilds will actually be better off. Now they only need 6 instead of 8 to HA as a guild. If you have a larger guild, run to HA teams.
4) Spike with 6 necros if the other team has 2 monks will not be nearly as easy as you seem to think. Rspike with 4 rangers in 4v4 is garbage. They can kill someone if your monk isn't on the ball, but with a good monk, it's over. You gain two spikers and a good nec spike will still kill someone, but it will be easily countered. VIMway will go the way of the dodo within a few weeks.

Let me also point out that the only way for HA to get any smaller in terms of population is for the American districts to be completely empty.



1) How will you not be able to find a group more easily when there will be SMALLER parties and more options for decent builds?
2) If you play mindless cookie cutter builds to get your fame now, you can bet that's going to get a lot harder with 6v6.
3) See 2.
4) If it stays fresh, then you're wrong.
5) Not going to happen, so no point in worrying about it.



The idea that HA should be confusing and complicated is elitist drivel. Attitudes like that are the reason newcomers to the game get driven out of HA.


"My point is you will need to think differently to succeed in 6v6 HA. You can't use the same ideas that worked well in 8v8."

Great point boofhead, thanks.
1. Smaller parties does not mean more options. People have trouble getting into groups now is not because of limited options or what not. Their problem is that they cannot get in groups because of their rank. Making HA 6v6 does not solve it. New players just do affraid to lose or get yelled at. Guild wars is a team game, if you cannot take criticisms or opinions or not humble enough to admit that you are a new player, you should not be playing organizing pvp in HA.

2. Look at the 6v6 weekend, how exactly is it HARD to play vimway with 3w/r and 3 r/w. More gimmick builds will pop up no matter what. So you're saying that smaller size parties means harder competition? I'm not going to say that's wrong, but just want to know if that's what you mean.

3. See 2.

4. Did 8v8 stay fresh? if it doesnt, what make you think 6v6 will? it will suffer from the problems listed 1-3 from above the same way.

5. Not going to happen because you guys do not ask for it. You guys are willing to settle for less. You guys who want 6v6 will just say screw you 8v8 hohers, it's our turn now. The whole hoh is mess up as it is. They should leave the way it is and build a new pvp mode that's 6v6 and let people choose which to play. If anet feels that deserted pvp modes needs to be change, PLEASE change fa and jq first. I'm sure there are more 8v8 hoh players

As for the elitist view, viewing HA being complicated or simple is the choice of the player, those that make builds carefully and think about it with more complexity will beat those who just play it simple (running gimmick builds). That is OKAY though. Those who prefer to play it simple are welcome. They are allowed to have fun. The reason that new comer do not come to play HA is because they think like you do. They cannot lose. They are not willing to learn. They are not willing to accept the fact that they are NEWBIES in hoh. They are not accepting the fact that they SHOULD be playing with other newbies, learn and play together. Again, we all start at rank0. We all went through the process, there is nothing elite about it. For those newbie that thinks 6v6 will help you guys get into it, it will not. If it's not working for you now, it will not work for you in 6v6. If you want to get a good start in HA, you need to change your attitude. High rank people are not better than you, but they are more experience in this aspect of the game. Go observe a few games, watch how they play. Make your own pug with no rank requirements. In the begining, you're not likely to win very much, but you can still have fun and learn from your mistakes. Eventually, you will get to where you want.

Again, please stop the argument 8v8 and 6v6 both are great, if you favor one mode at the expense of the other group, you are selfish! Please do not accept that there can be only one HOH, it can be either 8v8 6v6. NO it can be both if you all stop fighting one another and get ANET to give you both. That being said, I will still buy nightfall and still will play 6v6 hoh, and continue to pwn (teach) you newbies of course :-), but I feel sad about the lost art of hoh 8v8.

MoldyRiceFrenzy

MoldyRiceFrenzy

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Feb 2005

Santa Rosa, CA

Confusion in The Ranks[tArD]

Mo/W

05 Oct 2006 at 04:59 - 249
Quote:
Originally Posted by stav lad
This a bad move from anet. all we gona see is vim/smite and thumpers!!!!!
i agree on new maps but the builds gona be the same with 6v6
8v8 give more chance of different builds...
The only reason is was populour at the weekend is that u get double fame

So i may stop playing ha due to bordom
FO SHO!!!

thats exactly what i was going to say, and a WHOLE BUNCH of people i know think that same way too. I think 8v8 gave much more diversity and now, its like a frikkin expanded team arenas ahhhg!!

so now the only 8v8 pvp is gvg???

Phaern Majes

Phaern Majes

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Sep 2005

Anywhere but up

The Panserbjorne [ROAR]

R/Mo

05 Oct 2006 at 05:54 - 250
Man I'm already thinking of a million builds to try and I know I'm not the only one.... so much for just being VIM and smite thumpers.....

VGJustice

VGJustice

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jul 2005

Tyria, cappin' ur bosses

Boston Guild [BG]

R/W

05 Oct 2006 at 05:56 - 251
So I keep thinking about this change and I've had a strange recurring idea. Single-Healer teams vs Dual-Healer teams. The way I've rationalized it is the Single's are gonna need one heck of a healer for starters but they have an extra slot for offence. They could make up for their lack of healing abbility by shear offence. Then the Dual-Healer teams would have better staying power, but reduced offence.

It seems simple to me, but I tend to think in simple ways. And when I say "healer" that could be anything from WoH monk to Boon to whatever works.

Which is something that a lot of people are going to have to do. They're going to have to simply drop their preconcieved notions of HA and try to better understand the new format. People didn't figure out IWAY in a month, just give it some time.

[EDIT] lol, I think I just helped your point a bit there, and I don't even PvP :P

Qual

Qual

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Dec 2005

Denmark, Karup.

[PuG]

W/E

05 Oct 2006 at 06:20 - 252
I like 8vs8 very much, so I was sad to hear that HA will be 6vs6. HA was also good because guilds could practice some ideas there.

Now guilds won't be able practice some ideas there and they will have to do a GvG and hurt their rank if their idea seams to stink?

Well maybe I am the only one who thinks this...

maraxusofk

maraxusofk

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Aug 2005

San Francisco, UC Berkeley

International District [id多], In Soviet Russia Altar Caps You [CCCP], LOL at [eF]

W/

05 Oct 2006 at 06:39 - 253
Hey anet, hers a question. u think 6v6 will decrease rank elitism? NOPE.

Sure low rankers will get into more groups now, but since they lack experience, how many will actually get fame? How many will get tired of getting pwnd and go back to farming urgoz or wutever? How many will stick it thru to truly learn how to pvp?

What does that mean? The high ranked ppl will continue to kill the low rankers, low ranked ppl will get tired of HA and 6v6 b/c they are getting killed too much (im sure ppl will enjoy HA’s ease of finding an unranked group even though they don’t get any fame), and some of the veternans who enjoyed HA all this times will be disgruntled and possibly leave. What have u accomplished?

This game update has inspired me to take rank discrimination to new heights just to spite ANET b/c the ppl who i used to take time out to teach them the finer points of HA pvp are the ones who have now screwed many players over. Am I being a jerk? Yes. Is Anet being silly in doing 6v6 HA instead of getting off their lazy asses and making a separate arena for 6v6 fame? U bet ur ass.

Avarre

Avarre

Bubblegum Patrol

Join Date: Dec 2005

Singapore Armed Forces

05 Oct 2006 at 06:45 - 254
We won a great deal of times with people who were <r3 in our group. There's a difference between people with no pvp skill, which should go learn in a different place, and people with no HA skill... they just need a decent team leader to give them directions.

Boofhead

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Aug 2005

Black Rose Gaming

05 Oct 2006 at 07:20 - 255
Quote:
Originally Posted by maraxusofk
Hey anet, hers a question. u think 6v6 will decrease rank elitism? NOPE.

Sure low rankers will get into more groups now, but since they lack experience, how many will actually get fame? How many will get tired of getting pwnd and go back to farming urgoz or wutever? How many will stick it thru to truly learn how to pvp?

What does that mean? The high ranked ppl will continue to kill the low rankers, low ranked ppl will get tired of HA and 6v6 b/c they are getting killed too much (im sure ppl will enjoy HA’s ease of finding an unranked group even though they don’t get any fame), and some of the veternans who enjoyed HA all this times will be disgruntled and possibly leave. What have u accomplished?
How, how how is this different to 8v8. As someone posted in another thread: "If this change inspires scrubs to leave the game, I will gladly show them the door".

Quote:
Originally Posted by maraxusofk
Am I being a jerk? Yes.
Nuff said.

The Silver Star

The Silver Star

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jun 2006

UK, Scotland

Il Guild Name Il

W/

05 Oct 2006 at 07:36 - 256
I myself like the idea of a 6v6 AREA, notice the word AREA because im not a "high" ranked HA player but i really enjoy the 8v8 format because you can have so many different proffesions in one team.. if you know waht i mean, with 8v8 there is also a wider variety of builds in my opinion that you can make and play than with just 6 players. I also feel that a Ritualist or Paragon in Nightfall may be a little left out in the new HA.. since there strengh lies with supporting the rest of the team. It all just sounds like a "sad" way to nerf mostly everything, however if bloodspike can run with 5 spikers.. it will still be there... if iway drops to 3 warriors, trapper and w/e it will still be there...

I think there should be a 8v8 and a 6v6 "Arena" because i like the 8v8 format more than the 6v6, im not bothered if they change HA to 6v6 forever i would just like a 8v8 area aswell... anybody agree?

I will now never take unranked people in my team to help because in a 8 man team you could teach them how to play and you would still do ok, and they would learn and get some fame... soon in 6v6 there isnt no way im playing with somebody to help them and teach them unless im 100% sure there a good player i can rely on.

Inner Salbat

Inner Salbat

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Oct 2005

Leader - ANZAC

E/

05 Oct 2006 at 09:45 - 257
Quote:
Originally Posted by Avarre
We won a great deal of times with people who were <r3 in our group. There's a difference between people with no pvp skill, which should go learn in a different place, and people with no HA skill... they just need a decent team leader to give them directions.
That's just the problem, you won't get a decent leader due to the fact they want to get on playing not explain the indepth details of why res sig is mandatory, (example of couse) which is fare enough I wouldn't want to explain everything a million times everytime I built something either, but this comes at a cost, the cost is the new players don't get to play, they don't learn a damn thing even when they get a chance, and all you get for the new players is poorly designed teams which the r3+ snobbery get to beat up, and think there uber.

And for those HA only teams that venture out into GvG land, with the same crap they used to HA, prepare to get OWNED!, not just owned in the normal sence, every game you play will likely be a loss, because your gimmik don't do jack in the real world.

Here is one person physically LMAO at all the complainers.

blackbane

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Mar 2006

new york

Korean Gawd Mode

Mo/A

05 Oct 2006 at 10:55 - 258
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrdbeau
Wow, so many people get so emotional whenever a big change in the game is rolled out. I find it very interesting that many of the arguments against 6v6 are arguments that can already be applied to 8v8 HA as it exists now. Let's just take a few minutes and think about some things.

1) 6v6 will become plagued by gimmick builds. Ok, well, for the most part, it is already. IWAY drove away many HA players, and Vimway et. al. has made the situation even worse. At least with 6v6, gimmick builds will be much easier to counter due to decreased versatility that can be carried in a given team. If smite takes over, how long is it going to be before everyone runs a smite counter build? Not long. Now, I do slightly worry that with 6v6, a rock, paper, scissors setup may occur; however, I believe there will be a much larger pool of builds to choose from with 6v6. This will additionally be dependent to some extent on what "new maps" and what kind of setup is brought about by this change.

2) All the time I've put into HA is going to be completely wasted and irrelevant by this change. Let's look at that. What exactly does rank denote (or rather, what is it supposed to?)? Theoretically, it indicates someone who has a lot of experience with pvp. But does it really? Of course not. All rank really denotes anymore is how much HA you've played and nothing more. If you think your rank really means something anymore, then you're delusional. Since IWAY came around, rank is largely irrelevant and I've played with plenty of terrible R9+ people. Additionally, let's assume rank does mean you're a good pvp player. If you're truly a good pvp player, then adapting to 6v6 or 4v4 or 18v18 should not be much of a problem for you. Things will change, surely, but a good pvp player is a good pvp player. It is necessary to at least be familiar with the HA maps/GvG maps to play in those formats, but if you've played more than 1 or 2 matches, that should not be a real issue, and understanding/learning the new map and setup cannot be all that difficult.

3) Enjoyment factor. I can speak from personal experience and empathize with those who used to enjoy HA and hate it now. I played HA a lot when the game first came up and basically until the time IWAY became very popular. I've basically stopped playing since you were forced to run IWAY, VIMway, or spike of some kind if you wanted to get a PUG group that didn't lose to the Zaishen. Many people feel that way. My guild used to HA and a lot of our members would HA, but many have stopped entirely in the last 6 months. Additionally, the number of people overall at HA at any given time has noticeably decreased over a period of time. On top of all that, matches will move much faster, and it will be a much faster paced game.

4) "High level competition." Quite a few people have made comments alluding to the fact that HA is so much more competitive than your average pvp arena. BS. Valid counterarguments to this idea have been presented, so I won't spend much time on it, but the competition in HA is sometimes decent, and sometimes crap. If you really want to make pvp hard on yourself, try playing some AB on the Kurzicks side in the early afternoon... if your l33t team of 4 can overcome the absolute stupidity of the other 8, then you'll know just how good you really are. Now, unfortunately, I doubt 6v6 will be any less "elitist" or "competitive" than HA is now, because let's face it, anytime you are winning any kind of reward (i.e. fame), people are going to be tools. Additionally, you are going to still have the r9+ only groups and so on, but by virtue of many more people playing HA (which, there absolutely WILL be), it will be much easier to get a PUG unranked group or a low ranked group.

Overall, this is going to really increase the enjoyment of people in HA and will bring many new people into the fold. I don't understand why people who play HA frequently right now would not want to have a lot of new people (or even old people like me that used to play and don't anymore) brought back into the fold. Well, I do know, actually, it's because as we've seen from many people's posts here, if you're a new person, you're a n00b, you don't know what you're talking about, you have no right to comment on HA, and so on.

I'm not going to call all the people who don't like this change or think it's going to be horrible "whiners," as that doesn't contribute much to the discussion; however, I will say that you need to stop, calm down, and just think it through for a few minutes. There is no way this can be a bad change, there just isn't. Additionally, saying things like "I'm not going to buy Nightfall now," or "I'm quitting GW because of this," and so on really makes you look immature and shortsighted, so just think about that.

And, before someone says I don't know jack about anything, I can assure you I've played plenty of pvp, including gvg, RA/TA, HA, AB, and so on. Look me up in-game if you really want to and we'll talk more.



You said iway drove away players, we'll , it was fine and dandy untill anet decided to create ****ing order of autopsy, lets face the facts, vimway blows.... 6V6 will not be easily countered because meladrus ranger and crip shot + taint and a warrior on your monk is never easy to counter. May i remind you [fish] was #1 for a while, and their gvg build wont be much different just drop the flag runner and warrior and it will be used constantly in 6v6. I liked the 3 monk backline by the way, some people tried 2, now it will have to be 2. Also, you can look forward to a lot of Mo/A, Mo/R smite spike groups. Have fun in 6v6

Lykan

Lykan

Forge Runner

Join Date: May 2005

StP

R/

05 Oct 2006 at 11:11 - 259
I cant seem to understand why people are expecting to be able to find groups easier. Sure there might be more teams but they still arent going to be accepting randoms wammos with fow just because its suddenly 6vs6.
Rank discrimination will still be rife.
I expect there will be more unranked teams forming though... for about a week anyway, then they will realise "Hmm nothing here has actually changed and i'm still getting my ass handed to me every battle. Back to UW for me."

And thats how its going to be, within a month the amount of people playing HA will be the same as it is now and there will be the same people that are playing now too.

Quote:
Also it's certain that experienced pvp players will adapt to the change, but that doesn't mean they'll enjoy it.
Exactly as Storage said, I will adapt because thats what HA is about but I wont like it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by YesNo
Here's a recap of the current HA metagame: iway, iway, iway, bloodspike, iway, iway, bloodspike... you get the idea.
Not sure when you are playing but during peak European times Iway is pretty much dead in the water, sure you get the odd one now and then but its getting rarer everyday. You still get the teams forming in ID1 but not many get anywhere.

shardfenix

shardfenix

Banned

Join Date: Dec 2005

Il Power Overwhelming Il [HaX]

05 Oct 2006 at 11:25 - 260
Less build combinations = more variety.
Less build combinations = more variety.
Less build combinations = more variety.
Less build combinations = more variety.
Less build combinations = more variety.
Less build combinations = more variety.
Less build combinations = more variety.

Nice one arenanet. Did playing too much IWAY make you forget math?

No tombcruise, that was not a pun. Don't make it one.

shardfenix

shardfenix

Banned

Join Date: Dec 2005

Il Power Overwhelming Il [HaX]

05 Oct 2006 at 11:30 - 261
At night, when I play, the metagame is iway, iway, vim, bloodspike, vim, vim, iway, balanced (omfg), vim, bloodspike, bloodspike, vim, iway, bloodspike.

I have played in the morning sometimes, and I see a lot more balanced groups on the other side of the map. However, more than half the teams I fight are still iway, vim, or bloodspike. The only thing 6v6 will do is nerf caster spikes and make smite more prevalent. The second week of 6v6 play will be as folows:

thumper smite, thumper smite, vim, iway, vim, thumper smite, bloodspike, iway, vim, smite, smite, smite.

If you want to change the metagame, nerf the broken skills. Don't turn HA into team arenas.

Mystic-

Mystic-

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Jun 2006

05 Oct 2006 at 12:49 - 262
This 6v6 change in my opinion is a big mistake. In that 4 day event I managed to get 1,500 fame in just two days! All I played against or played with was mainly degen. More then 90% of the builds was degen because it was so overpowered. Now with the new skill "toxicity" or whatever its called degen is even MORE overpowered AND we have a non-elite bleeding skill. 6 people to spread degen on is extremely easy and I found degen to be more common then VIM. Me and many other "elitist" PvP players would rather play against Blood Spike, VIM and IWAY every map because it's so damn easy to beat if you know what you are doing. 6v6 will just eliminate holding ability which means it will take even longer to get fame, (*sigh* no more 40 fame wins ) and will just damage the meta-game more then it already has. As someone said earlier if this really was done to stop these builds why not just add a 6v6 arena that also gives fame rather then take away 8v8. Many people who I enjoyed playing with alot are leaving the game because of this, and a guild I enjoyed playing with disbanded (R.I.P sOap). As Jimmy said in a post that was deleted earlier how would you like it if the PvE players where made to farm FoW or do their precious quests with 6 people. They would not be very happy people, so why do this to the PvP players? If there was any reason for many people to have enjoyed that 6v6 event it was because of double fame and NOT the 6v6. Also by lowering the amount of people in a team, guild groups have been dealt a major blow. Less slots means less people playing which leads to more people waiting. You can't just expect two guild groups to be going, what if the people in the other team of 6 can't lead and therefor won't be able to play. This will just make newer people come and start playing Heroes' Ascent but you will be loosing more then you are gaining. gg anet.

Lykan

Lykan

Forge Runner

Join Date: May 2005

StP

R/

05 Oct 2006 at 13:18 - 263
I agree HA guilds will feel this the most as the majority are a group of around 8-12 core players who alternate when time shedules and real life allows, I can see many guilds splitting or getting smaller or having people leaving just because people will have to be left out of the team.

4thVariety

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jun 2005

European Union

ADL

E/

05 Oct 2006 at 13:19 - 264
when was the last time any of you instructed a F-0 player? and even if you did it, you most likely would have instructed him with a "fail-safe" tactic whith minimized required ability and maximized chance for success. hmm, why do they all use those same three builds?

as for the pvp game modes itself. it is not that they are particularly overcrowded with people eager to integrate new players. turn off your title, pretend that you have little experience. I bet you won't find a group anytime soon (outside your alliance).

State of PvP is more like this:

GvG: Depends on your guild/alliance. Abandon all RL if you want to get to top.
RA: Random, totally. Feel free to play bad and smacktalk anytime
TA: Train your GvG Split team tactics here.
Aspenwood: "Why isn't he moving?"
Jade Quarry: "When does it start?"
Alliance Battle: The happy zone of uncomplicated pvp fun, blind invites and decent waiting times. Maybe this is because it LACKS a title tracking your success??? Noobs welcome anytime.
Hero's Ascent: If you are new, nobody will want you. If you want to get in anyway, go seek one of the newbie training-courses fansites offer, socialize with the other trainees there, fight your way up from there.


the people playing pvp religiously are still a very small portion of the gaming population. just compare the active pvp districts and the active pve districts anytime. Even the Temple of the Ages ALONE has more active districts than all of the PvP islands. and those runs certainly take at least as long as an HoH attempt. with that in mind, Anet couldn't care less about the people who have set up the elitist access rules to HA-groups in the past. there are hordes of potential PvP players around, all they need is a chance to get in.

reducing the group size is increasing the chances for newbies, since each of them is now only required to find 5 other willing players. who cares if some pro-gamer builds are somewhat powerful, even newbies will adapt (the are human y'know)

McUH

Pre-Searing Cadet

Join Date: Jun 2006

Slovakia

Wrath Guard

E/Me

05 Oct 2006 at 13:45 - 265
Quote:
Originally Posted by TimTimTimma
Spikes are still possible, just not the gay kind like blood spike
No. This is the one which still remains possible for 2 reasons. It has backline incorporated into spikers so they will not become so vulnerable as other spikes. Also blood-spike is no really spike but pressure aimed to wear down your monks, I seldom see blood spike to kill anyone as long as you have half decent infuser and he has energy (and health) for infusing.
Anyhow I am not sure why blood spike should bother you. It is almost useless unless on holding situation, almost always aiming at HoH skip hoping they can capture somehow and hold then.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TimTimTimma
Last I checked, 2 monks hold up 6 players, so it shouldn't be hard to hold up 4. This claim has no root, and is completely 100% random hate
Not sure what you want to say. I never said 2 monks are inadequate for 6 man team. I said that when you bring 3 monks now, the game will take forever, due to less offense. If you took 4 monks in 8v8, the difference would not be really that great, since there were builds which punished you for too much defense (like spikes).
What I fear is that Spike will be lost from metagame and that will in turn allow defensive teams to flourish. And that in turn will bring long matches where the victory is decided by who gets bored first.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TimTimTimma
You are suggesting high level play is based on the number of players involded. WRONG, high level play is, just that. High level of play. TA can be considered high level of play because there ARE good guilds/teams in there and they play at a respectable level. Anything involving TEAMS BEING FORMED involves higher level of play because there is strategy being implimented and attempted at being executed.
Now we don't understand each other prob. I agree that high level play requires players who play well, and yes, if the best players play in TA seriously, it's level can become quite high. Still I don't think many of such players play there, or play there seriously (i.e. playing for win in TA and not say trying some splitting team for GvG). We will never know, we have no observe there, but from those few times I was there I was not really impressed. And I fear quality of players in 6v6 HA will decrease (while maybe numbers will increase, at least from start).
Anyhow, even if top players did TA, it would not be as high level as 8v8 HA when they play there. And that is because 4v4 (and new 6v6) is simpler than 8v8 - you need less field awareness, you have less targets to watch for etc etc. It WILL become simpler.
And don't get me wrong. I am not implying that say 16v16 would be better than 8v8. There are lines beyond which it is becoming too complex to grasp and thus chaotic. I feel 8v8 is good balance in this equation (simplicity-complexity-chaos).

Quote:
Originally Posted by TimTimTimma
Nice knowing ya.
Lol. You can't know if it is nice knowing me since you don't know me. Most people don't even know themselves...

Mc

Sagius Truthbarron

Sagius Truthbarron

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jun 2005

Animal Factory [ZoO]

A/

05 Oct 2006 at 14:13 - 266
Quote:
Originally Posted by Priest Of Sin
Maybe i'll go run Dual Smite and get that rank 3 now that HA= 6v6. Personally, I think that if you just ran a 6 monk out-last team, you'd dominate HoH.
Yeah, except for relic runs.. Alter holding.. And just about anything past the first 2 maps.

Legendary Shiz

Legendary Shiz

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Apr 2006

05 Oct 2006 at 14:18 - 267
I guess this explains why they nerfed smite at the last skill update.

I don't hate this, but I do wish they would have created a new arena instead of reformatting HA.

Senator Tom

Senator Tom

Banned

Join Date: Aug 2005

California

[Dark]

W/

05 Oct 2006 at 14:26 - 268
I don't really like it...it was only popular that one weekend because it was double fame...

Sagius Truthbarron

Sagius Truthbarron

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jun 2005

Animal Factory [ZoO]

A/

05 Oct 2006 at 14:32 - 269
Quote:
Originally Posted by McUH
Now we don't understand each other prob. I agree that high level play requires players who play well, and yes, if the best players play in TA seriously, it's level can become quite high. Still I don't think many of such players play there, or play there seriously (i.e. playing for win in TA and not say trying some splitting team for GvG). We will never know, we have no observe there, but from those few times I was there I was not really impressed. And I fear quality of players in 6v6 HA will decrease (while maybe numbers will increase, at least from start).
90% of the HA population has been idiotic gimick build since the game came out. The serious "skillful" players mostly play GvG. But anyway, do quality players really matter? Its about qaulity team, and most of the rank 6/9+ people out there want to lead, not be led.

LittleBaby

Academy Page

Join Date: Oct 2005

Leettown

ViVa

Mo/Me

05 Oct 2006 at 14:56 - 270
GUYS!!!!! U ALL IGNORING ONE THING!!! sorry for caps but i c NOBODY talking about the maps improvemetns.

Alleji

Alleji

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jan 2006

05 Oct 2006 at 15:09 - 271
Quote:
Originally Posted by LittleBaby
GUYS!!!!! U ALL IGNORING ONE THING!!! sorry for caps but i c NOBODY talking about the maps improvemetns.
For several reasons:

- We don't know what the improvements will be.
- Anet will certainly f*** something up and break the maps for at least a couple days.
- The 6v6 change is a lot more relevant and controversial than map changes. I'm sure almost everyone would welcome the map changes, but a lot of people don't like 6v6.

Theus

Jungle Guide

Join Date: May 2005

W/Mo

05 Oct 2006 at 16:10 - 272
Perhaps the introduction of random environmental conditions?

Wildkat

Pre-Searing Cadet

Join Date: May 2006

R/Mo

05 Oct 2006 at 17:27 - 273
Forming 6v6 monk boredomway.Need a lifebarrier monk,a lifebond monk,a blight monk,and 3 other healers.Expect matches to last over an hr.Why worry about nr and such when you don't have many people to bond.....Think there are gimmick builds now.Nothing will come close to 6v6....

jana_the_stranger

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: May 2006

belgium

05 Oct 2006 at 17:32 - 274
yeah HA will be even more full with noobs


why not 5vs5 so i only needed the 4 henchies to make a build, cause i know they are better then most ranked iway,vimway....players


the event was popular because of the double fame and because vimway was so strong, so new people and noobs could gain much fame.

Orbberius

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Sep 2005

05 Oct 2006 at 17:37 - 275
So are all the shitty HA players going to pack up their shit and leave? 'Cause that'd just be great.

Sluggs

Sluggs

Banned

Join Date: Jun 2005

05 Oct 2006 at 18:00 - 276
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrdbeau
All the time I've put into HA is going to be completely wasted and irrelevant by this change.
All time spent in a game is completely wasted to begin with

Sarevok Thordin

Sarevok Thordin

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Apr 2006

Scotland

W/N

05 Oct 2006 at 18:19 - 277
Quote:
Originally Posted by jana_the_stranger
yeah HA will be even more full with noobs


why not 5vs5 so i only needed the 4 henchies to make a build, cause i know they are better then most ranked iway,vimway....players


the event was popular because of the double fame and because vimway was so strong, so new people and noobs could gain much fame.
Fame gained with VIM isn't true fame. It's just "I can read Guildwiki" points.

Brewski101

Pre-Searing Cadet

Join Date: Oct 2006

05 Oct 2006 at 18:22 - 278
Okay, let me start out by saying I would be considered an HA Noob by most of you. (Rank 2) I've been playing GW for about 10 months now. I'm a relatively casual player, putting in a couple hours a few nights a week.

I rarely HA, and the biggest reason is that it's not worth the effort. Rank is hard to get when you only play casually, and low rank keeps you from getting on decent teams. People trying to learn how to play take nearly constant abuse both when trying to find a group, and in game. If you try to rank farm your way up so that you don't have to take the crap, you get mocked even more for playing farming builds.

So when it comes down to it, HA is no fun for a Noob. The only way to get to the "fun" part is to slog through hours and hours of abuse and annoyance. Given my limited play time, it's never been worth it. Most of my guild/alliance is in the same boat.

All that said, I have to say I think the switch is a good idea. Not because I think 6v6 is better than 8v8, or that it's going to kill certain builds or make others better. It's good because it shakes up an area of the game that become elitist and stale. For a brief while, it makes it so that it's possible for Noobs to get in on the action while everyone is trying to adjust to the changes.
  • Will there be new gimmick builds that dominate the area? Sure. ANet will continue nerfing skills and builds to adjust to it.
  • Will this kill certain build types? Absolutely. Good teams should be able to adapt their builds, or come up with new ones.
  • Will this make the "Elite" players angry? Sure, in a lot of cases it will. Anyone who's on top has a knee jerk reaction against change. Anything that changes might knock you off the top. The good ones will learn to adapt, and will stay on top, or get back on top in no time.
  • Will this make it easier for Noobs to HA? Yes. Good. From ANet's perspective, how can this be bad? GW is built on the idea of always getting new players. With no monthly fees, the company will die if it caters only to it's existing players.
  • Will some experienced players leave? Yes. Some. Most will complain for a while and then adapt. 1-2 years from now when ANet changes the format again, most of those people will complain about that change too.
Over and over again, ANet has proven they are dedicated to keeping the game fresh and new. When areas of the game get annoying, boring, or dominated by one group of people, they step in to update and keep the game going. This move is consistent with everything they've said and done in the past, and I assume they'll continue to do it in the future.

I know it's annoying when it's "your" area of the game that gets changed, but look at it as part of the wider picture. If GW becomes a game dominated by a set group of people, they'll go out of business, and GW will go away forever. If you honestly think that's preferable to changes like this, then you need to find a different game.

Just my .02. Let the flaming begin.

Duly Thankful

Academy Page

Join Date: Aug 2005

05 Oct 2006 at 18:35 - 279
Good post Brewski. Common sense ftw!

McUH

Pre-Searing Cadet

Join Date: Jun 2006

Slovakia

Wrath Guard

E/Me

05 Oct 2006 at 18:47 - 280
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sagius Truthbarron
90% of the HA population has been idiotic gimick build since the game came out. The serious "skillful" players mostly play GvG. But anyway, do quality players really matter? Its about qaulity team, and most of the rank 6/9+ people out there want to lead, not be led.
Maybe, still I think it is less than 90% (maybe because playing in Europe times?). But anyway, after change it is going to be even more. Not to mention that facing such idiotic gimick is at least some challenge, facing "random balanced group" is just a joke.

And also, not all the gimicks are always same. R-spikes can have different backlines and different spike skills, sames go for most usuall builds. And while they are gimmick, I would not say it is so bad, because there are quite lot of them, so it is not like facing the same things all the time, at least when I play. Just to name some I face quite often there in 8v8 HA:

- Blood spike (there are at least 2 common different builds)
- R-spike (varies quite a lot, esp. in backline and support)
- IWAY (again different IWAY builds out there)
- VIM (while basicaly same, there are some differences, esp. in warriors, though it is some time since I seen W/Me blackout there)
- smiteball
- CG builds (something like balance with 2+ CG)
- hex pressure (rarer but are out there, I like to run one too)
- Flesh golem factory (or whatever it is called)
- balanced (I admit most of them are random pug-s, so it is like joke)
- henchways (yup, they can bite, dont underestimate :-) )

Ocassionaly there is still some AoE smite build too, but very rare now from my experience.

Well, I think it is not small number of builds, and while you can call them gimmick, they among themselves have variations and despite what many people may think, they evolve.

I am afraid, that in 6v6 it will end up worse not long time since it started.

And to all people who say it is completely boring. Maybe stop playing it for fame and start having fun. Try different ideas, builds, skills not used, just for fun. You will not hold Halls maybe, but it is NOT the objective. Objective is to have fun there. If YOU play gimmick all the time, I understand you are bored to hell. For me it is not so boring, because even facing same builds (which have quite enough variety) brings different experience, depending in what you play with.

PS: Ever tried dual-IW smite with muddy terrain and snares ? It was quite fun before smite-nerf and we even almost won halls once. And I did have some new R0 players there with me :-)