Why not let us use 7 Heroes; the reasons?

Why are we not allowed to have/use 7 Heroes?

I cant see any logical reason or agruement against it:

Overpowerment?

Allowing us to use 7 heroes of lvl20 would not be any more powerfull the letting us use 3 Heroes and 4 Henches of lvl20. They possess the same strength, armor, max weapons.

The only different is the way their attribute points are arranged and the skills they use, and their weapon mods. But mods and stats dont make a Heroe anymore powerfull then a regular hench.

Plus your no more overpowered then you would be with a full lvl20 PUG team.

[update to overpowerment agruement]

Consider this fact;

Unless you already have a character of the same profession or secondary profession as your heroe, then that hero will have no skills or very few skills to use. The only other place to get your hero skills are from "hero skill trainers". But we also have very limited hero-skill-points to spend on those skills.

If you dont have a character of the same profession whos skills you can use, and your limited to spending the hero-skill-points to unlock them, then your limited to which skills to use and what builds to use.

There are bound to be players who have never played as a warrior (like myself), or used warrior secondary (like myself). The same can be said for necros, mesmas, monks, rangers.. etc etc etc.

Which renders those heroes of the same profession useless or less effective.

This means that only players who have either a char of each profession in primary or secondary can make all their heroes 100% effective. So this agrues against the idea that Heroes are more powerfull then PUGs. All the humans in a PUG can almost certainly be guaranteed to have a good selection of skills to play with. Unlike Heroes.

I for instance have never played a warrior or used warrior secondary. My hero warrior uses a very limited number of skills. I dont have a choice on what skills to use. I just use anything.
I also dont want to waste gold and skill-points unlocking those skills in secondary. I also HATE playing as a warrior and have no intention of creating one just for Koss.

The result being that I dont a 100% effective hero team. The only heroes which are 100% effective in my view are those which I have a similar profession in, who can share their skills.

Incourages less human interaction?

How does using 7 heroes incourage us not to use PUGS, any more then using 3 heroes and 4 henches?

I would still choose henches and heroes over a PUG if I had to.

The user interface?

You only have to add 4 more flags and give us add 4 more head slots to the hero and skill windows.

Allows you to have lvl20 AI in an area where the henches are a lower lvl?

So what? we can already do that with the 3 Heroes we have, how would another 4 make a difference to that?

In ascalon where you can only have 4 players, it allows you to have a full lvl20 team anyway. So why not in other locations?

You would need to level up and equip all/more of your Heroes instead of focusing on just 3!

No you wouldnt. You could just focus on 1 if you wanted and use 6 other henches if you choose. It would be your choice to use 7 heroes instead of 7 henches. The henches would still remain for those who dont have NF.

You have the choice still to use henches if you want.

Unfair advantage over those who dont have NF?

We already have an unfair advantage over them with just 3.

The henches would get lonely and their kids could starv without gold?

They still have all the none NF owners to employ them and give them minimum wage. Their kids wont starv.

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There are huge benefits to being able to use 7.

The countless high end quests which you have to start from low end areas, such as the Titan Quests in Tyria, because no humans do them.

The masters quests in NF which need a bit more specialisation then henches, when you cant find an 8 man PUG, because no one does them.

Sorrows Furnace where, again you need more specialised AI to help, because virtually no one does that except to farm.

Exploring areas between Beacons Perch and the War camp going south. Which you cant do alone and it can be impossible to find a team of lvl20s willing to explore it instead of just running it. So you need a full lvl20 team.

It would benefit you in DOA, where they have no henches.

The list goes on, using those kind of examples. Where you need a better team, but you cant get a PUG together. Or you need a lvl20 team and the only henches are low lvl and no humans will help.

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If i have missed a reason against it, then tell me?

If i have incorrectly counter-agrued one of the reasons against, tell me?

But I honestly dont see a reason why we cant use a full Heroe team?

[edit to my idea]

I've come to realise that my arguements arent perfect and my idea isnt either. Because of that Im changing my idea slightly.

I believe giving us 7 heroes is still a good idea, but only allow us to have 7 heroes AFTER we complete Nightfall, after we kill Abaddon and once we have reached a level of experience where we can be subjective about using them.

I believe doing that, removes the arguement againt giving low level players 7 heroes and tempting them away from PUGs.

And it also stays with my other arguement that once your experienced and have completed a game, chances are your in a guild, or have friends ingame, who make it no different to using 7 lvl20 heroes.

Henchmen would get lonely, Alesia would turn emo.

Theyd have each other to keep them company, and all those poor none NF owners who still need their services.

Let's see.

Earth henchie, without an elite, spamming stone daggers and dropping a random ward against melee

Or.

Hero, fully decked out, with insigned armor, sup vigor, HCT/HST gear, set up as anything, even as full earth, sandstorm, obsflame warder.

Hmmm...

Yea, not overpowered.

And the reason I mention earth henchie, is because of wards I like them a lot. They take a lot of pain out of common agro spills.

Maybe you don't see the problem with balance, but I do. The builds that would be possible are just insane.

Honestly, even if we could use seven heroes at a time, I'd still take Eve/Claude and Mhenlo with me. Not as much as I do now, but still...
It's a novelty thing with me and Mhenlo and Eve/Claude have my pixel love. They're my favorites for some reason.

So she'd kill herself more than the enemies would now? She gets enough attention as it is. She managed to die on almost every single mob i fought yesterday doing the Iron Mines bonus. Even Stefan died only once the whole trip!

It would make Tyria just too easy... i'm already walking through it is as it is with 3 heros. Would make places like FoW, UW and DoA extremely pointless with the 'no hench' rule. Could just bring a load of heroes and take FoW to pieces.

I'd like to have 7 heroes for DoA...

It's not really a balance issue since any hench could be replaced by a human, after all. But I'm sure it is a technical issue (7 radar flags?) plus a gameplay issue.

But it would be awesome.

Ok, so they might have advantages over Henchs.

But as someone else said, a team of 7 heroes and yourself is no more overpowered then a full lvl20 PUG team.

And since Anet loves to make us PUG it, then why disadvantage us with 4 henches?

And that would be your choice. We dont want those henches getting lonley and sewing us for loss of work.

Your logic is sort of messed up. First of all this is an online game, what you're basically asking for is to take gw and turn it into an off-line rpg. Heros pretty much killed the pug/grouping deal in many areas. Making it so you can have 7 fully decked out, full skill bar, controllable heros is far more powerful then similarly leveled hench with 5 not-so-great skills. As it stands right now you can play all the campaigns with ai heros/hench, making it so you have 7 heros is just overkill. Plenty of games you can play alone.

Server load, that pretty much is it.


Are you frikken serios 3 heros in a group seriosly adds power to a hench team as you can make builds that work with each other, rather than just a bunch of random skills, 7 heros would steamroll anything, and the balance of the game would need to be reworked to account for that.

Unless your giving your heros sucky builds of course.





Youve answered your own question with the list at the botton of your post with hard to find group areas

That's very incorrect. A level 20 henchman probably has max armor and max damage weapos, but most likely un-modded or with the kind of 10^50 type mods that heroes' weapons have when they join you. Also, most henchmen have rubbish builds, often with just 3-4 skills. They are definitely much worse than heroes, whom you can outfit with the best equipment and builds in the game. They're even better than players at certain things, such as interrupting.

I personally wouldn't mind being able to use 7 heroes, but I think the reason that the game doesn't work that way is to not completely discourage multiplaying.

Just a gues of mine , but i'd think the next chapter will allow more heros to be used by the players (only for those who bought it duh).

this way it would be a lure to buy the next chapter and a pretty good one to .

henchies getting lonely?
hmm i doubt A-net would care, it's all about the money baby
(otherwise they would be making upgrades to factions or prophecies after a new chapter)

or that it would make most enemeis way to easy... it already is, exept for the elite areas.
Anyone can Hench/Hero the Nightfall storyline and i'm sure that the same would now apply to proph and factions.

I would make builds for every area of the game and never play with "real" players again. Even with 3 heroes I hardly ever use pugs.

I pug'ed THK last nite for old times sake on my monk survivor with 1.2 mil XP and it was okay, but the pug had 3 people who had never done it before. Scary!

That's why I prefer heroes/henches: they are much more experienced.

I'm surprised at how many people don't use heroes. There are people who have finished NF and don't have a single lvl 20 hero.... amazing cuz this game is so much easier with heroes. tho not as much fun.

This would be an excellent choice for people who made mesmers, assassins, or dervishes and no what it's like trying to get into a pug.

hehe she has Sandstorm now

i like her wards too, and she uses it quite nicely

If you had control over 7 different heroes, that group would be way more overpowered than your average or even good PUG's. Being able to handpick and synergize all the skills in the entire party is a HUGE advantage that usually on Guild parties are able to acheive. What the Heroes lack in AI, they more than make up for in reflexes (catching spike damage and interupts) and knowledge of party members (Blood Ritual).

While I would love all the possibilites from having 7 heroes, I think ultimately, it would make the game too boring for most veterans. Because of the lag I get in American Districts, I have been forced to play in ID's with heroes/henchies or guildmates since release. The game already seems way to easy with just 4 heroes...then I come on the forums and see people complaining about how hard it is to PUG such simple missions as Gate of Madness and Grand Court of Sebelkah. If we have 7 heroes, PUGing, if it isn't already, would be dead.

I guess the question becomes, is making it very easy a valid counterargument? And, how much different is it that we only need one other human in the group to avoid having to use henchies? It's not like 2 player + 6 hero teams are incredibly social.

I'm kinda on the fence for this issue. Maybe even a compromise where certain areas (Realm of Torment/DoA/UW/FoW) get 7 heroes and the other areas keep 4 would be viable.

Correct!

I have 2 accounts, 1 PC, 1 Notebook, side by side, I pick 3 heroes from each char in each account, and take some walks in the park in FoW/UW.
I play with one, the other just keep close (spacebar) so it's heroes are always around, with a synergy build is painful to see how fast a hard area as FOW is cleaned.

I'm doing this trough NF campaign with some of my chars and believe me it makes things a lot easier.

So i think it will be overpowered and a lot! At least if you know how to make a complete team build work as one.

7 heroes with the ability to change their skills and builds is far better than 7 henchies who you have no control over the skills they used.

You don't even need to do that. If you leave with one account, their heroes stay. But you can't control them like your own heroes of course. I discovered this accidently when I was playing with a guildie who got an err 7. They got booted, but their heroes remained and fought on...and did so quite effectively. But you probably have your reasons for keep your other char there...like loot.

Why do you need 7 heroes anyway? are you saying its hard to find another person who wants to use heroes aswell? just 2 man with heroes, thats what i do.

Regarding balance if this happened everyone would go around with 2 sf's 2 mm's 3random heros + yourself and tear through the game. I mean even with only 3 max its still too easy.

7 heroes would be too much hassle IMO.

True MB, I don't even bother to put runes and other items on my heroes!

7 heroes would mean that you would never need to play with a human again. This game was not build around solo play. Anet goes out of their way to find way for you to have to play with real people. Of course people find ways around this, but the average player is forced to play with real ppl, and that's what anet wants.

Two suggestions if ANet does this.

1. Add Hero versions of all the henchmen, from every chapter, for anyone who has NF/future chapters that have heroes. For something like Factions it'd be fun because you might have to do both kurz and lux at least part way to get all the heroes from each side.

2. Have a character based title that regulates how many heroes a person can have at once.

3. Have areas, quests, or missions that you can't bring or complete with heros along (but you can complete with real players).

I agree that it would be great to go to the UW / FOW / DoA with a 7 henchmen. This would give me a chance to really try out these areas. I am not antisocial but I have children and a life that pulls me away sometimes. I don’t join groups too often because I do not want to AFK on someone.

For the remainder of the game I would say why not just upgrade the current Henchmen skills so that they congeal better with groups? A-net could set up 3 different builds for all henchmen and have a vote on Guru for what is the best set of skills for the henchmen. Then implement the new skills. Wouldn’t it be nice to have a Spiteful Spirit Necro or a RC Prot Monk to choose from?

Freek, I can make a poll if you wish. PM me with details etc if you're interested.

I want to use my heroes instead of henchies as well. I spent a lot of time outfitting them and working on skills etc for them. They are better suited to aid me in combat than the henchies are.

henchies need to be nerfed or get paid more.... cause those ascalon welfare checks are not cutting it... There are GWENS out there starving.. Anet always makes us sound like we can't handle 7 Characters.. HELLO ...... Commenc sence........ right out the window

I have never had an issue getting into a PUG with my mesmer. Most the time I walked into a mission town and received a number of invites. A good dervishes is better then most wammos you see in PUGs and an assassin that knows what they are doing in short I really get a bug up my butt when someone says things like that

As to the OP I think Heros are meant to be a filler. Something there to fill the role in a group that you can not get elsewhere. They are not meant to replace the whole MMO part of the game and it is a shame that so many people use them like that

I don't think it will make much difference in 'power'. But it would be an interesting experiment to build a hero-only team. Maybe we should be able to buy extra hero slots?

A team of myself and 3 heroes and 4 henchies is better than most lvl 20 PUG teams . ..
Heroes are vastly more powerful than henchies as you can customize their skill bars and control them.

Agree with you here since I already don't team with other people if I don't have to (and with heroes, that means never)

And 7 hero skill bars would be covering most of your screen


Not really that hard to equip all your characters especially if you just use collector gear.

You can still do these with just 3 heroes and/or henchies

It's doable with henchies. Just got to go slower.

Looks like they designed DoA so people would have to team up since the rest of Nightfall can be completed without teaming with another human ever.

If we could, no one would ever team again. Even with just henchies in Factions, I had already sworn off teaming with people since I just didn't want to have to wait in town longer than the mission itself took. Still got all the missions on masters.

7 heroes would be harder to manage and control for those who have less micromanagement skills but for those of us that came from RTS games, it just gives us a little more to do.

The problem is that we can't tell if another player is good until we actually get in the mission. A team could have what looks like a perfect team set up but the players themselves aren't that great (ie don't listen to leader, go agro more mobs, etc). The players that you speak of that are awesome are in fairly short supply (or at least it seems that way). After going through Prophecies and half of Factions and spending most of the time just sitting in town waiting for monk is when I decided to just go the henchie route.

If anet is smart they want what WE want. We buy the game, we pay their bills in effect by doing so. If letting everyone use all heroes means everyone stops pugging, then that is their choice. Do not blame them, or anet, blame all the foul mouthed losers, cheats, & jerks that make the game miserable.

Think of it this way. Imagine a discussion between the planners and the programmers..

Programmer: we got some new feedback on the use of heroes..
Planner: Oh, what's up?
Programmer: they want to use all heroes in groups and not use henchman on misisons etc in PVE.
Planner: Ok, how hard would it be to give them that?
Programmer: Not hard but it would reduce the need for pick up groups..
Planner: If it'll make them happy and boosts sales, do it.
Programmer: ok kewl..

I agree with this idea because simply there is no harm to it, but to the OP really you should start using the search function or something
a thread like this started by The Servant of Kali was done not 2 or 3 days ago

I played all the way through NF with very little micromanagement, other than placement from time to time. That doesn't mean I didn't set their skills and so on prior to going out on missions and I equiped each with better weapons...mostly collector weapons as well as minor runes. But once I started a mission\quest, other than calling targets for the most part, I did very little micromanagement.

1 war , 2 monk , 2 searing flame ele , 2 searing flame necro(one with putrid explosion) , 1 savanna heath mesmer.

no mob can resist more 10 second.

never said you needed it; i was responding to bane's post where he said that he thought 7 heroes would be too much of a hassle. you can basically just go back to how things were done with 7 henchie teams which was just call target and go. some missions just go a little faster/smoother if you're able to control yourself as well as the 3 heroes plus henchie placement. if you've seen any of the really good people who do hero battles, you'll see what i mean. there's a post somewhere in the pvp area where someone describes someone controlling his entire team to cap all the shrines at once while still being able to kill the other team.

having multiple controllable heroes on the team just reminds me of when I used to play City of Heroes. I had 4 accounts so I would just use all 4 at once. Made the game a lot more fun since I had more to do using 4 keyboards and mice at the same time.

As Legendary said there is no harm to this, I too would like to see this implemented, of course henchmen should stay. More choices the better

I doubt they will do this, because, really, nobody would PuG.

I personally like the idea, but I don't support it.

it's all about choices.

people who do not want GW to turn into "singleplayer" are not forced to take the heroes, they can still pug.
ppl who do not like pugs now use henchies/heroes anyway.
lol, in a way you want to force ppl to pug. this, of course, leads to bad pugs.

anet would do good by giving players what they want. if they want 7 heroes, give them 7 heroes.

you fear the game would get too easy?
- don't use game elements that make the game too easy. like in any game: set the difficulty level to the level you are comfortable with.


REMEMBER:
it's all about YOUR game experience, not about the game experience you want OTHERS to have!
if YOU think 7 heroes would be too easy, then YOU don't use them, but do not force others to do this.

If i want GW to feel like a single player game, that's my problem, not yours.
i wouldn't play with pugs anyway.

You are absolutely correct in that train of thought. As well as your comment regarding "individual" experiences.

My issue with the whole hero thing and anti-PUG sentiment is that it is forcing players to play with hench and heroes.
I sat in an outpost for three days before I even saw a person looking for a group.
There are countless outposts and mission towns where all you see is people running in, picking henches and heroes and leaving. Terrible MMO experience.
So, while you are enjoying the experience of not having to "PUG," those players who liked to "PUG" and had the patience to try 2 or 3 groups are...well, SOL. My only choice is to play alone, go with guild groups or don't play at all.
Well, I don't play anymore, or very rarely. To the point I've liquidated most of my weapons and highend material and given away a ton of gold. I have no need for it. If this game is going to play like an offline game, there are countless games out there that are much better.
In the end, as I stated in opening, SumXone is right. It is about the individual experience and your enjoyment with that experience and in the end, heroes ruined the enjoyment for me.

double post. nasty lags around here...