Why not let us use 7 Heroes; the reasons?

Thats true and I appreciate your point. But if they were to choose to fix those kind of situations, then this is the only solution I see.

It would either be that, or provide alternative lvl20 henches in all those locations only available to titan fighters.

But Anet has stated they wont touch Prophercies anymore and/or make direct changes to old campaigns.

Allowing us to use 7 Heroes (isnt a perfect idea I admit) buts its a solution which is external to prophercies and would knock-on benefits in prophercies.

Plus if you consider that you cant have lvl20 heroes unless your lvl20 yourself, then it wouldnt give anyone access to AI more powerfull then they are.

Areas like that south of beacons wouldnt be anymore exploitable then it already is, unless it was a lvl20 from another continent.

But I see your point and I respect it.

Protect Denravi is the one u couldnt name freekedoutfish

And The Titan source is also a 4 man team quest in Asalcon /6 from Yaks.

SF is good example of where henchies become not particulally usful, sure they can fight but due the the high AL of enemys and the limited henchie builds it makes it considerably harder and next to impossible in same cases unless u exploit some means of helping urself out.

Defend North Kryta Province has to be one of the worst ones without heros Unless u PUG (which is next to impossible since people dont bother with the high end quests). With the Current set up u can only take 3 heros so u have to have 2 lvl 12 or so henchies that are pretty much Fodder, Even if u run from ToA with additional Henchies that are slighty higher level, there Still Titan Fodder, u need lvl 20s, especially one with Builds that are atleast semi good Vs titans.

What are you babbling about. It's hard to make any sense out of that babbling mess you call a statement.
Anyhow, I never said I had some huge guild, actually, we are quite small.
There are times when I get on and the guildies are either not on or in the middle of a planned run (FoW, DoA, Urgoz etc.). Instead of waiting, I would like to move on in the game with real players.

Mr_T_bot, if you were able to comprehend what you read, you would see that my general complaint is, since the introduction of Nightfall, that you cannot involve yourself with the general population, because the general population is running around with hench and heroes only. The only involvement with the community you can get at this time are inane, senseless discussions and arguments in places like LA, Kaineng or Kamadan.

No more LFG, no more populated mission outposts. None of that. The people you do find now act as if they are so leet, with their unoriginal wiki (guru) build. They exhibit very little patience, minimal skill and even less sense.

Okay, I've stayed out of this thread so far because we had a 20+ page thread debating this very subject earlier when Nightfall came out. However, there are a few points here that the above post fails to consider.

1. "People who want to PuG will still be able to PuG." I've heard this many times, but, as you acknowledge above... (a) with people using heroes, there are less and less people available to PuG and (b) because there are less people available, it is becoming increasingly harder to find PuGs. You even acknowledge that you "don't want to wait hours on end" to find a PuG. Doesn't that contradict your statement that "people who want to PuG will still be able to do so"?

2. "But they allow us to use 7 henchmen, why not 7 heroes?" It's simple - heroes, by all intents and purposes, are very powerful AI, as they are designed, equipped and skillsetted (is that a word?) by the player. At least with the current system there are limitations to the use of NPC's that actually encourages multiplayer gameplay in certain areas. If you don't believe that, ask yourself - why do I want 7 heroes anyways? It's because you want a further advantage in PvE that is currently not available. As many people have said, PvE is already pretty darn easy other than some very end game content. Why make it easier?

3. "Removing human interaction." The day that trading becomes the primary outlet for interaction in the game is the day that the game ceases to be a multiplayer game. Multiplayer interaction is meant, at it's core, to be players playing and experiencing the game with other players. Every step that improves the power and utility of the NPCs in the game takes us one step away from that multiplayer interaction.

Again, the debates in the other thread also focused around the poor quality of PuGs, the ever-expanding Guild Wars universe, and the impact of NPCs on the availability of PuGs. What I take exception to is blanket statements that basically say "Don't Tell Me How to Play the Game", when the requests those very players are making impact others in the game in a negative way.

Where the hell have you been? That has been the case for a year, sans heroes. People stuck with their guild for general areas like you. And those that didn't had no idea what they were doing, had friends, or used henchmen because other people sucked worse than the AI. Mission outposts havn't been populated since less than 2 months after game release, people have always acted leet, had minimal skill and patience. Maybe if you read what I said and came out of your little friend and guild bubble, you would see this.


Wrong, there are not less people available to PuG because you can only fill up half of an 8 man team with heroes. People are just asshats, like they have always been, and won't group with people who have heroes.

Their skillset means nothing because Arena Net's AI can't handle alot of skills, much less skill combinations.

Advantage? Advantage over what? The NPCs you would be fighting with henchmen anyway and who are designed to outnumber and outpower you? Maybe people want 7 heroes so they can actually advance in the game.

I definitely need help in interpreting all three of these posts.

1. What I am saying is that there are fewer people available to PuG because people are preferring to use heroes over real players. Are you saying that this isn't true?

2. Then why the clamoring for 7 heroes over 3? If the skillset doesn't matter, aren't they exactly the same as henchmen?

3. There are many, many, many people that have completed all three campaigns with 3 heroes and 4 henchmen. Are you saying that people can't advance in the game without 7 heroes?

By the way, "advantage" = having more power, ability, whatever you call it to be able to more easily defeat PvE enemies.

Im with Mr T on this. What advantage in PvE am I trying to achieve with 7 Heroes?

Being the OP, i've already completed all 3 campaigns and I only have 5 quests left. All of which are end game quests.

I've also stated about 10 times now why I personally want a 7 heroe team. But your obviously not reading it or paying attention. It has nothing to do with wanting to make the game easier.

Im asking for a 7 heroe teams to fix a huge problem with Tyria and other campaigns.

A problem where quests are uncompletable because no PUGs exist to help and/or the Henche provided are not strong enough

I keep mentioning the Titan Quests as a perfect example. Do you know what the Titan quests are?

Their the last 5 quests given in Tyria, which you have to start from low level areas where the henches range from lvl6-15 and the party size ranges from 8-4.

The henches at all these locations are far too week to use and absolutely no one does them anymore. Which is strange considering the 110k experience you gain.

Explain to me how else to do those unless we're allowed to use a full set of Heroes?

It has nothing to do with making it easier, its about making it possible. I do appreciate though, that its not a perfect plan because it would give people advantages in other locations.

Im not denying that. Not anymore. But its the only way to resolve quests which you cant complete because no one does them.




And thats this thread completely ruined.

Yes, I am. The number of people in an area dwindle a short while after a game is released. There are no fewer people to PuG than there would be because people either wouldn't play or would use henchmen anyway.

Because Heroes are outfittable and controllable and even though the AI can't handle a number of skills or skill combinations at all, you still pick their skills and attribute sets to complement what you are doing.

Are you being sardonic?

There is few fine example while people prefer heroes/henchies over real people and run the game with turned off local and trade chat.

Can you please not post those images.

I've reported three people for posting them because their completely un-related and pointless images on this thread.

Not overpowered? Yes, it is! Like it was mentioned before, you can make them so overpowered with the skills. Not needed.

School must be out..don't like the topic don't post.

I'm looking into getting some face torn off, and if anyone posts another picture with some stupid @*$$ argument that it's the only way to get through, I GUARANTEE a ban coming your way. Not that you might not anyway.

Unienaule- Thank you very much for deleting those pics. While funny, they were completely hijacking this thread and it was very rude of the Guru community to be so disrespectful to another persons thread and his/hers ideas. Shame to see it really.

Back on topic--I think the OP has his reasons for wanting 7 heroes and there has been plenty people here to post good reasons why this just can't/shouldn't/won't be implemented. Every one is free to have their own opinions

OP- On you main point about the Titans Quests in Tyria...I completely agree with your frustration of not being able to find PUGs to do this and I REALLY hate that I cannot use henches either. I have tried to do the last one with my ele and 3 heroes but it failed badly when I hit the mobs of Charr. Maybe I had the wrong builds set up, I am not sure.

But with the severe limitation of only having 4 people in your party I don't see how I will be able to complete this quest. My only other option would be to run all the way from ToA with a full party of 8 and some lvl 15 henches....that doesn't sound too appealing. Yaks Bend is out cause the henches are even lower level there.

So my only other option is to hope that someday I will hook up with real players and complete it.

I will get flamed horribly for saying this but.....I would like to have either 7 heroes or at least level 20 henchs to be able to go into the Fissure of Woe, the Underworld and other elite zones so that I can take my time and explore these areas at my leasure. I understand the reasons why we can't take in henches, but it would be nice for people like me who like to explore every nook and cranny of the map and do some sight seeing, and don't like to do this with PUGs because people will either leave, yell at you for being slow, not want to take the path you do, will boss you around and tell you what build to bring and how to play, etc. Sometimes soloing with heros/henchs is better

Folks it's real simple. If they (GW/Anet) see that it will boost sales and/or increase profits from future sales, it will be added (the ability to play 7 heroes). And no amount of whining, complaining, or flaming will change that. It's the golden rule, the ones with the gold make the rules. And to be honest if it's only PVE why does anyone care if they do add it? Sillyness to the extreme if you ask me.

It isn't just the Titan quests, those are just the pinnacle. No PuG's want to do quests, except the handful of quests required for game progression. Otherwise you are on your own. In addition, PuGs do not want to explore.

Yes, the continuing expansion of Guild Wars universe does contribute to the decreasing availability of PuGs.

However, to state that the only people that are using heroes are those that solely used henchmen in the past is way overreaching. I personally know several guildmates who used to either PuG or participate with guild members in missions and quests that have now refused to do so solely due to the introduction of heroes. There are many more people out there that continue to PuG (sometimes with some hero counterparts) that would simply stop PuGing all together if 7 heroes were allowed.

I in absolutely no way was being sardonic in my previous post - it sounded like, from your post, that you believed that it was almost impossible to advance in the campaigns without having 7 heroes. I completely disagree with that, as would many who completed the game utilizing 3 heroes and 4 henchmen.

By the way, referring to the Titan quests...there are many of us that have completed The Last Day Dawns and Defend Denravi either solo or with a 4 person PuG. I find it very hard to fathom that those quests are not completable with a 1 person/3 hero group. Defend North Kryta Province, however, is another story - but I do see PuGs regularly forming in Temple of Ages for that quest.

Shouldn't this post be moved to the Sardelac Sanitarium, because it is a game suggestion?

This isn't a suggestion, it's more of a discussion, and you doubleposted. Side note that nobody cares about: Thank goodness we're off page 5 now because in addition to the 20 posts I see the 47 deleted ones so it takes forever to load it. And in case you're wondering if I actually counted, no, it counts them for me.

Addendum: Just because your name is Mr_T_Bot doesn't mean you can tell people to shut up because their playstyle is different. If you don't want to hear someone else's views, then don't read this thread. Simple, really.

I really am at a loss. People continue to post that PUGs are readily available. THEY ARE NOT. Even during peak times, it is hard to find people to do anything with, unless you are in one of the tougher mission outpost. The bottom line is that PUGs are becoming more and more rare.

Mr. T_Bot...A point of correction...1st, my guild is not large and mostly coordinate for elite missions and boss farming...2nd, my friends list consist of my brother and random people I sold stuff to in Guru auctions.
You just assume all I play with is guildies and friends, but I have heard that fools assume.
Furthermore, I do not expect and don't look for pugs to do quests. Typically, I'll go with guildies, but, unlike most of the community, I am not above going with a PUG to help. Not that I don't like questing with PUGs, it's just that questing PUGs virtually don't exist.


Also, your contention that limited Pugging has been a problem for a year is not correct, at all. When factions first was released, it was not unusual to to find questing Pugs and aside from unwaking waters, mission pugs were always readily available. The only problem was the shortage of monks. Same holds true for Prophecies. In game now, getting a Pug for any mission in any campaign is a bear. They are hard to find. Just the other day, I was in an outpost with about 12 other people. Each and every one of them had themselves, 3 heroes and 4 henches.

/signed. Also, when learning an area, I hate being a drag on teams that have done these areas a thousand times. It discourages experimentation.

So you have a guild and friends you can play with?
Moot.

Do I really have to say anything to point out the blatant obviousness of this, and thusly its irrelevance.

Speaking of assuming making fools, you assume those people would have played together in the first place. I've seen it before, they wouldn't have. They might have played with you, if you were a healing monk or a warrior. But for unfavored classes, abso-frackin-lutely not.


I've played this game for long enough, and without the use of friends or guildmates, ever. I've seen this stuff all occur over and over, and now people are blaming it on heroes. Bullocks. It was there before heroes, trying to blame it on heroes is like trying to blame violence on videogames.

I'm in a large, friendly Guild. When they can, they're always helpful. But when I played through Nightfall, I was always ahead of everyone in my Guild, so I couldn't get their help. And I didn't want to sit and wait for people to catch up. Plus, playing as a Derv, I found it fairly impossible to get into PuGs (even after achieving level 6 Nightbringer). So I heroed and henched my way through the game. While I found henchies better in NF, on more than one occasion I was wishing I could add more heroes instead of henchies.

Still, I prefer human interaction. If I could have played with live people I would have. It just wasn't an option for me at the time.

Id like to thank the website administrator who removed those pictures. I hope those responsible have been delt with fairly.

Thank you.

Well..... Hummm.... Having 7 Heroes To Command Would be Soooo much more tactical and at the same harder. I prefer the idea of having 7 heroes. But what would happen if the next chapter brought more extra Rangers, elementalist, etc etc... *Thinks*

Im not suggesting that the titan quests are impossible. Ive done 4 of them and I only need last day dawns to complete and then the titan source.

My point was that creating a team to do those quests is extremely hard or near impossible due to a lack of people doing them.

Due to the staggering lack of people doing them, we need some way to form a full lvl20 team. I can only see the heroes are the possible solution at this point in time.

Being able to carry and use up to 7 heroes, allows us the choice to form a full team capable of doing them when we cant find a PUG.

Defend north shiverpeaks, and North Kryta are the ones which are easy to form a party for.

Defened the jungle one and LDD, are hard because no lvl20s are ever in those areas. Your limited to low level henches in that case.

That was my point. And there are similar quests in NF which could fall under the same situation. Certain master ones which you cant find a PUG for which require more control over your AI which the henches dont provide.

But thats my personal view.

As ive also said, ive completed all 3 games fine using henches and PUGs, so im not stating that the game needs the 7 henches in order to progress. I only have 5 quests left, which are the hardest ones in all 3 games.

Again, you are missing the point...This is exactly the behavior I am talking about. What is happening is this...and please read and understand before you respond.
People hated henches...henchmen were/are dumb and have dumber builds. People would not use henchmen, ever. They would PUG. Now, they can customize their henchmen (read: Heroes), as well as position them on the map, so they don't feel the need pug anymore, or at least not nearly as much.
Furthermore, people that normally would PUG also are taking heroes and henchmen, not necessarily because they want to, but they have little choice.
Prime example \|/

When no one is available, it's either log off or take heroes and henchmen.

Stop bringing up friends and guildies, I have stated time and time again, without specifics, that I play with guildies when we do elite missions, HoH or AB. Otherwise I am in the outpost, attempting to Pug. Let me say it again...I play with guildies when we do elite missions, HoH or AB. My friends list has my brother, 2 55 monks and 3 SS necros for UW farming and that's it. So your insistence that I am complaining, but play with guildies and friends exclusively, so I have no complaint is incorrect.

Everyone has the right to play the game as they see fit. If you enjoy playing the game solo, more power to you and have fun. The problem is that the movement by the community to solo play lessens the enjoyability of the game for those who enjoy the multiplayer experience in PvE. That's my point and I am sticking with it.

hmm i wonder if anyone's ever brought up the idea of scaling henchies? as in the henchies are the same level as the leader of the party or something to that effect?

Since 7 heroes would most likely be overpowered and the main reason I see people in this thread asking for more heroes is that they can't find teams for the after end game quests, being able to have lvl 20 henchies could work.

A guildmate made it south from Beacons and cleared Snake Dance w/ 2 SF eles and MM hero. He monked.

But yeah, 7 heroes would be nice.

Obviously, it is you who is missing the point. They would not PUG. They might PuG if you were a healing monk or a warrior, no other class. MIGHT.

Reading comprehension is your friend. You are highliting a statement refering to pre-Nightfall. People who did not like henchmen would chose to play in a PUG. Now that they have some control over the builds and placement, they play with heroes and henchmen.

Understand?

I'm tending to agree with the OP.

I don't see the argument against it for overpoweredness as being valid, since as many people have already said, you, 3 heroes and 0-4 henchies is pretty strong already if you know what you're doing. Maybe not for every class, but you and 7 henchies could get most done if you're patient and willing to learn. And really, they don't seem to care if you're overpowered in PvE, especially if you have 7/8 of the drops absorbed by AI. They're already changing heroes and henchies in PvP, which is where the balance issues really come into play.

In order to make a better-than-hench team of yourself and 7 heroes, you'd have to have invested a lot of time playing: learning, unlocking, gathering equipment, etc. So why not let us control a full team if we want to put in that kind of time? The henchies are still there if you need a profession you can't build better yourself.

Besides the primary missions and quests that require a certain hero or two, having tricked out heroes with fabulous tuned-for-AI builds is not a starting requirement of the game - it's a possible goal in the game.

Lots of people have already proved that heroes are unnecessary in Tyria and Cantha by henching all or most of it. I haven't tried, but I suspect you could hench most of Elona without your choice of 3 heroes, too. A player's heroes tend to be about as strong as the player himself. I've seen players with hero builds that are just downright frightening and make even Alesia look like SuperMonk! I've seen those same players get into wipes or near-wipes and blame it on the henchies.

Maybe if you let those players try building a whole team themselves, they'd finally start to realize that there are easier, stronger ways to approach PvE.

The people that like PUGing will still like it, and they'll still do it. The people that don't like PUGing now take heroes? Well, we used to just take henchies. I keep an eye on the local chat in towns. If I see someone requesting help in a way that makes me think it's someone I won't wind up being sorry to have helped, I'll still join with them if I can (you find some very nice new guildies that way.) Cruddy henchies, better henchies, 0 heroes, 3 heroes or 7 heroes ... I've always played that way.

Thats not the best example really is it :P considering he was a lvl20, fully equipped monk. That may have given him a slight advantage in exploring the area south of beacons perch.

What if your not a monk or a warrior or a ranger? you dont have healing, tanking or running abilities?

It's great how people have taken a perfectly good multiplayer online game and helped gravitate it towards a single player game. Those who despair over this just be grateful the single player folks aren't turning other popular multiplayer games onto this route.

I've an idea for Anet, it's too late for GW but for GW2 PLEASE make it more like Diablo/NWN and have the campaign playable offline and in single player mode (with the bots people seem to love so much). Then maybe you can leave the multiplayer aspect to remaining a multiplayer aspect.

That was the point of my post. I played the entire way through NF with Heroes and henchies. My post was in no way directed to you, or anyone else for that matter.

I'm not disagreeing with you. Everyone does have the right to play how they see fit. I said I prefer to play with live people. That's my preference. But if you look again, I said I played the entire game with Heroes and henchies and wished I could've taken more Heroes.

I did most of Prophecies, Factions, and Nightfall with Henchies (heroes in NF), and some I did with guildies, friends or pugs.

The question is how much of the lack of pug availability is caused by heroes or players being spread out into 3 campaigns? No easy answer there...

7 heroes IMO would allow most players to bridge the gap between those who play thinking of their own skills and equipment and thinking of the whole party's skills and equipment.

BTW, why can't we use our other chars as heroes? They are all levelled, outfitted, with mutltiple setups.

Ok, well if we're going to argue semantics ... GW is a CORPG, not a MMORPG

Maybe the reason we evil AI-lovers aren't ruining the "other popular multiplayer games" is because GW is, by definition, not mandatorily multiplayer. So it attracts us.

Consider the some people paid the same price you did to buy this game only after they were assured that multiplayer PvP or PvE is in no way required because of henchies and/or heroes.

I'd say GW is great as-is in this area. You can play with other people when and as you choose. You can play with AI, too. You get an opportunity to spot people you're willing to get to know better at every town you stop in. You are in no way required to pay even the slightest attention to the ones that give you the creeps.

Cheers!
Luny

while I would have loved to have played with groups throughout the all three campaigns, fact of the matter is, I didn't want to have to sit in an outpost for at least 30 minutes to be able to get a team together.

3 heroes is a good balance as its strong enough to get through the game but not so strong that some people will still need to team up. Everything in Nightfall except for DoA is achievable with heroes and henchies so everyone gets to play how they want. It's good as it is.

So glad I didn't close this thread now, as that (seems to me) to be a really good idea. They're already in the system, I wonder how that would work out. Then they could even bring their own lightbringer titles!

This one was easy if you left from Yaks bend with group of 6 instead of the Frontier Gate.