Why not let us use 7 Heroes; the reasons?
Express2022
Reason For Why We Need To Be Able to Control Heroes:
1# Zero Rage Quitters
2# Better Armed/Skilled
3# The Ability to Use The "Call Target" Command
4# No More Monk Strikes!!!
5# The Ability to Command (Have 4 Henchies Mobbed Together = Death)
6# To Solo with Confidence
7# Less and Less People Doing Missions in some Chapters
8# Harder To Find People On Some Quest
9# Can Develop Interesting Builds and Vs. each other in your Guild Hall 8vs8 /w Heroes
10# Henchies at the places where they give entrance to FOW, UW are Not* Ascended.
11# Hard to Communicate with Live People (Some Do w/e they Like, others AFK, and some quit to piss the person off)
12# Not Everyone likes to Play with "Real" People or with Meshed Together Henchies
13# Would REALLY Make The Elite Mission in Relm of Torment Easier
P.S. Henchies + Live Ppl (Unco-operative) = FTL!
1# Zero Rage Quitters
2# Better Armed/Skilled
3# The Ability to Use The "Call Target" Command
4# No More Monk Strikes!!!
5# The Ability to Command (Have 4 Henchies Mobbed Together = Death)
6# To Solo with Confidence
7# Less and Less People Doing Missions in some Chapters
8# Harder To Find People On Some Quest
9# Can Develop Interesting Builds and Vs. each other in your Guild Hall 8vs8 /w Heroes
10# Henchies at the places where they give entrance to FOW, UW are Not* Ascended.
11# Hard to Communicate with Live People (Some Do w/e they Like, others AFK, and some quit to piss the person off)
12# Not Everyone likes to Play with "Real" People or with Meshed Together Henchies
13# Would REALLY Make The Elite Mission in Relm of Torment Easier
P.S. Henchies + Live Ppl (Unco-operative) = FTL!
Zinger314
Quote:
Originally Posted by unienaule
So glad I didn't close this thread now, as that (seems to me) to be a really good idea. They're already in the system, I wonder how that would work out. Then they could even bring their own lightbringer titles!
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For one, it's irrelevant if, according to this thread, we get 7 Heroes. What good would having your own characters do? Just pretty armor skins? If you attempt to say "low-level assistance," you'll break the balance of GW.
Second, loot distribution. If the idea was implemented, I'd gurantee you someone would say "OMG MY CHARACTERS DON'T GET LOOT!!!!111!!"
Lastly, the idea violates the general RPG lore. This is not Final Fantasy Tactics. You are the player. Not some AI entity.
And as a general response to the thread...yes, 4 Henchmen are the same as 4 Heroes. The answer to 99% of the complaints in this thread is "Henchmen." The answer to 100% of the complaints in this thread is "Henchmen + Skill."
Express2022
Quote:
And as a general response to the thread...yes, 4 Henchmen are the same as 4 Heroes. The answer to 99% of the complaints in this thread is "Henchmen." The answer to 100% of the complaints in this thread is "Henchmen + Skill." |
-> Express2022's Reason:
Quote:
1# Zero Rage Quitters 4# No More Monk Strikes!!! 7# Less and Less People Doing Missions in some Chapters 8# Harder To Find People On Some Quest 11# Hard to Communicate with Live People (Some Do w/e they Like, others AFK, and some quit to piss the person off) |
Quote:
Lastly, the idea violates the general RPG lore. This is not Final Fantasy Tactics. You are the player. Not some AI entity. |
First off Guild Wars Sets itself apart from "normal" MMORPGS by simply making the player(s) develop strategies and not deal with the garbage of "Lvl grinding." In addition, there is no "Best" Armor or Weapon.
Please Do not Compare Guild Wars to Final Fantasy because they are two different games entirely. I could name a dozen but I'd just be blowing off hot air.
Quote:
For one, it's irrelevant if, according to this thread, we get 7 Heroes. What good would having your own characters do? Just pretty armor skins? If you attempt to say "low-level assistance," you'll break the balance of GW. |
Heroes CANNOT break a Balance in Guild Wars. Skills "break the balance of Guild Wars. That's why there're patches to counter people that exploit skills. Oh, please re-read my suggestion maybe you'll find out Why* it would be great to have your 7 heroes to command.....
Zinger314
Quote:
Originally Posted by Express2022
1# Zero Rage Quitters
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Express2022
4# No More Monk Strikes!!!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Express2022
7# Less and Less People Doing Missions in some Chapters
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Express2022
8# Harder To Find People On Some Quest
11# Hard to Communicate with Live People (Some Do w/e they Like, others AFK, and some quit to piss the person off) |
Quote:
Originally Posted by Express2022
First off Guild Wars Sets itself apart from "normal" MMORPGS by simply making the player(s) develop strategies and not deal with the garbage of "Lvl grinding." In addition, there is no "Best" Armor or Weapon.
Please Do not Compare Guild Wars to Final Fantasy because they are two different games entirely. I could name a dozen but I'd just be blowing off hot air. |
Quote:
Originally Posted by Express2022
Heroes CANNOT break a Balance in Guild Wars. Skills "break the balance of Guild Wars. That's why there're patches to counter people that exploit skills. Oh, please re-read my suggestion maybe you'll find out Why* it would be great to have your 7 heroes to command.....
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(Gah, had to repost because it didn't register as a post.)
Mr_T_bot
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zinger314
For one, it's irrelevant if, according to this thread, we get 7 Heroes. What good would having your own characters do? Just pretty armor skins? If you attempt to say "low-level assistance," you'll break the balance of GW.
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Vinraith
Using your own characters as heroes would pretty much obliterate the playability of the game. There'd be no reason to ever play through the game more than once, basically, you could power level yourself, run yourself, escort yourself, and since all the loot would be "yours" too you could farm with an 8 character team.
This board needs a bleeding from the eyes emoticon, it'd fit here.
This board needs a bleeding from the eyes emoticon, it'd fit here.
arcanemacabre
How about having access to only ascended characters, and only after that character has beaten Nightfall? That solves any "There'd be no reason to every play through more than once" and "you could power level yourself" arguments.
Also, Zinger, I'm confused on your argument. You're saying it's a bad idea because it doesn't fit into your definition of what an RPG is, and that it would add a new dimension to the game? Those are bad things? GW is supposed to be different from other RPGs, and has many unique features.
For example, explain how you can change your secondary profession by paying 500g, and purchasing skills, and changing your skill bar only in town, and only being able to use 8 of all the skills you've learned - in Role-Playing terms. RP is no excuse in GW.
Also, Zinger, I'm confused on your argument. You're saying it's a bad idea because it doesn't fit into your definition of what an RPG is, and that it would add a new dimension to the game? Those are bad things? GW is supposed to be different from other RPGs, and has many unique features.
For example, explain how you can change your secondary profession by paying 500g, and purchasing skills, and changing your skill bar only in town, and only being able to use 8 of all the skills you've learned - in Role-Playing terms. RP is no excuse in GW.
AiLLUSION
This question is very simple
People who already use 3hero/hench will always use it to beat mission/quests so there is no difference between 3 or 7 heroes
People who like pug will always pug, so increase in hero size wonder matter to them either.
People who already use 3hero/hench will always use it to beat mission/quests so there is no difference between 3 or 7 heroes
People who like pug will always pug, so increase in hero size wonder matter to them either.
Zinger314
Quote:
Originally Posted by arcanemacabre
Also, Zinger, I'm confused on your argument. You're saying it's a bad idea because it doesn't fit into your definition of what an RPG is, and that it would add a new dimension to the game? Those are bad things? GW is supposed to be different from other RPGs, and has many unique features.
For example, explain how you can change your secondary profession by paying 500g, and purchasing skills, and changing your skill bar only in town, and only being able to use 8 of all the skills you've learned - in Role-Playing terms. RP is no excuse in GW. |
Samuel Dravis
I wouldn't mind being able to use 7 heroes. Honestly, I usually try to team up with people for missions and even quests, but with the exception of a few times (mostly PUGs for FoW, and once for Consulate Docks), the people in them were absolutely mindless. They had no apparent concept of the relative usefulness of skills (and spread their attributes so far that none of their skills actually did anything anyway - I saw an ele with water,fire,air,earth AND estorage), put so many sup runes on that they'd die in one hit, etc etc. I've tried doing Nahpui Quarter with a full group - of course we died - four different tries in a row. Finally I just took henchmen and finished it easily.
Of course, the converse is true as well. I played Eternal Grove with myself (as rit) and another ritualist, using henchmen to flesh out the team because there was zero other people there (we won handily even though we didn't speak any languages in common). The Consulate Docks try I mentioned above was incredibly easy due to player experience. I've had great PuGs before, and I would love to have more of them, all the time. I do ask if people want to do the mission or quest or whatever - but usually no one responds. :/
So I have to hench mostly everything from the first two campaigns, and NF is filled up with 1) idiots (yeah, IDK what else to call them), 2)dedicated henchers and 3) people like me that want to find a decent pug - but are unlikely to actually find one in any reasonable amount of time.
So that's why I support 7 heroes. PvE's balance is really not all that important, so long as it generally is fairly reasonable to beat with some skill. Obviously PvP would hate to have 7 heroes and there are already restrictions for that anyway, so I don't really see a problem.
Doesn't this already occur when someone switches characters to fit the team build? I do that all the time; having almost all the classes, it's quite a useful thing to do. I've never felt that that decreases the worth of any individual character; I still have to put in the time to level it up, get the skills, etc etc. Some characters I like to play more than others, sure - my monk, rit and necro get the most action - but all of them are seperate characters. Still, when people PM me for a group, it's not like they're asking specifically for the character I was playing ATM; they're asking me for my abilities, in whichever character that is needed.
Of course, the converse is true as well. I played Eternal Grove with myself (as rit) and another ritualist, using henchmen to flesh out the team because there was zero other people there (we won handily even though we didn't speak any languages in common). The Consulate Docks try I mentioned above was incredibly easy due to player experience. I've had great PuGs before, and I would love to have more of them, all the time. I do ask if people want to do the mission or quest or whatever - but usually no one responds. :/
So I have to hench mostly everything from the first two campaigns, and NF is filled up with 1) idiots (yeah, IDK what else to call them), 2)dedicated henchers and 3) people like me that want to find a decent pug - but are unlikely to actually find one in any reasonable amount of time.
So that's why I support 7 heroes. PvE's balance is really not all that important, so long as it generally is fairly reasonable to beat with some skill. Obviously PvP would hate to have 7 heroes and there are already restrictions for that anyway, so I don't really see a problem.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zinger314
I'll rephrase; making it so that other PCs can be Heroes would remove the focus on the individual character and place it on the account. An individual character would have much less worth; and that is what contradicts the RP style.
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myword
i personally don't see why we should not be able to use 7 heroes, apart from the impracticality of having 7 mini skillbars on your already cluttered screen.
i do agree that allowing you to use your other PvE characters as party members isn't exactly a good idea. GW PvE is woefully poor when it comes to replayability value. playing another PvE character through the campaign is a big part of extending GW play time. seeing this from ANet's point of view anyway...
i do agree that allowing you to use your other PvE characters as party members isn't exactly a good idea. GW PvE is woefully poor when it comes to replayability value. playing another PvE character through the campaign is a big part of extending GW play time. seeing this from ANet's point of view anyway...
arcanemacabre
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zinger314
I'll rephrase; making it so that other PCs can be Heroes would remove the focus on the individual character and place it on the account. An individual character would have much less worth; and that is what contradicts the RP style.
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Hand of Ruin
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zinger314
I'll rephrase; making it so that other PCs can be Heroes would remove the focus on the individual character and place it on the account. An individual character would have much less worth; and that is what contradicts the RP style.
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The emphasis in GW as ALWAYS been on the human player behind that character, and not the actual character... In this game, characters are designed to be disposable. You can easily delete a character and start over from scratch, and in a week two be exactly where you were. The emphasis is the human choice of what skills to bring, how to use those skills, and how to plan ahead for battle... This is not WoW where you must invest so much time in a character that it begins to become apart of your online identity.
When I add someone to my friend's list, I don't see them as a monk or a warrior, I see them as a skilled player. If all you see in this game are specific characters and can't seperate a character from the player, then you missed the point of this game entirely.
Paperfly
I'm utterly astounded that people think seven controllable heroes is in the same power range as three.
...Seriously, give us a full-party build available at will and without the drawbacks of human control (which boil down to "sucking", "not being familiar with the mission" , and "impatience"), and there's not a point in the game that can't be C-Spaced through. Naked. By a griefer ranger build that specialises in dropping spirits that actively hurt your team.
Or maybe you just aren't using the heroes you have now properly? They're already superior to any PuG in terms of raw power.
...Seriously, give us a full-party build available at will and without the drawbacks of human control (which boil down to "sucking", "not being familiar with the mission" , and "impatience"), and there's not a point in the game that can't be C-Spaced through. Naked. By a griefer ranger build that specialises in dropping spirits that actively hurt your team.
Or maybe you just aren't using the heroes you have now properly? They're already superior to any PuG in terms of raw power.
FelixCarter
So much anger over such a little thing...
Who cares if somebody uses 7 heroes instead of 3? Is that going to ban your account? Or make it so that you loose all your titles? Perhaps you're upset because it will "unbalance" the game and make it so that your character doesn't look "1337" anymore?
Get off all of your high-horses. People want to play the game differently than you. That's all this is. A game. It would be one thing if this was a matter of life and death, or something similar, if not equal to... But give me a break.
He wants to use 7 heroes. I want to use PuGs. Others want to use 3 heroes and 4 henchies. Hell, there's a person out there that enjoys 2 heroes, 4 players, and 1 henchie. This is what we like to call "different preferences".
You people are arguing over whether or not a person has the right to play a video game differently than you? Wow... Such a thing truly disgusts me.
Who cares if somebody uses 7 heroes instead of 3? Is that going to ban your account? Or make it so that you loose all your titles? Perhaps you're upset because it will "unbalance" the game and make it so that your character doesn't look "1337" anymore?
Get off all of your high-horses. People want to play the game differently than you. That's all this is. A game. It would be one thing if this was a matter of life and death, or something similar, if not equal to... But give me a break.
He wants to use 7 heroes. I want to use PuGs. Others want to use 3 heroes and 4 henchies. Hell, there's a person out there that enjoys 2 heroes, 4 players, and 1 henchie. This is what we like to call "different preferences".
You people are arguing over whether or not a person has the right to play a video game differently than you? Wow... Such a thing truly disgusts me.
Zinger314
Quote:
Originally Posted by FelixCarter
You people are arguing over whether or not a person has the right to play a video game differently than you? Wow... Such a thing truly disgusts me.
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If something happens in the game, it affects everyone.
Whiplashr
But is Guild Wars a "MMO"? I mean, I realize that people will constantly change this depending on how it makes or breaks their argument. But constantly people are like "It's not an MMO, it's a CORPG" (Or whatever the other term is). But now, it *is* an MMO?
And I still don't see the point, even if you are right. How does someone else using 7 heros affect YOUR game? You are speaking in general terms, but not backing it up. It looks like a red herring to me. HOW does it affect EVERYONE?
Regardless, I don't care if it's heros or henchmen, if we could just get more control of the henchmen. Like more flags, and/or the ability to tell them not to use certain skills (like stopping them from always rushing ahead to ressurect people. I can control my heros that way, but not Henchmen).
And I still don't see the point, even if you are right. How does someone else using 7 heros affect YOUR game? You are speaking in general terms, but not backing it up. It looks like a red herring to me. HOW does it affect EVERYONE?
Regardless, I don't care if it's heros or henchmen, if we could just get more control of the henchmen. Like more flags, and/or the ability to tell them not to use certain skills (like stopping them from always rushing ahead to ressurect people. I can control my heros that way, but not Henchmen).
grottoftl
Zinger
Tell me how someone who wants to play with only heroes and henchmen will effect everyone else?
or...
Tell me why do you and others alike want to force people to play with each other?
QFT
Tell me how someone who wants to play with only heroes and henchmen will effect everyone else?
or...
Tell me why do you and others alike want to force people to play with each other?
Quote:
Originally Posted by FelixCarter
So much anger over such a little thing...
Who cares if somebody uses 7 heroes instead of 3? Is that going to ban your account? Or make it so that you loose all your titles? Perhaps you're upset because it will "unbalance" the game and make it so that your character doesn't look "1337" anymore? Get off all of your high-horses. People want to play the game differently than you. That's all this is. A game. It would be one thing if this was a matter of life and death, or something similar, if not equal to... But give me a break. He wants to use 7 heroes. I want to use PuGs. Others want to use 3 heroes and 4 henchies. Hell, there's a person out there that enjoys 2 heroes, 4 players, and 1 henchie. This is what we like to call "different preferences". You people are arguing over whether or not a person has the right to play a video game differently than you? Wow... Such a thing truly disgusts me. |
Zinger314
Quote:
Originally Posted by grottoftl
Zinger
Tell me how someone who wants to play with only heroes and henchmen will effect everyone else? or... Tell me why do you and others alike want to force people to play with each other? |
Mr_T_bot
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zinger314
I don't want to force people to play with each other. I want people to learn how to play and use henchmen, and not rely on more Heroes as a crutch.
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Angel Netherborn
It starts to affect the game for others when Anet starts coming with quests and missions more suitable for certain party composition, i.e. 7 heroes. With 8 fully customisable, controllable party members, things becomes too easy.
Just look at how ppl described taking 3 heroes through Tyria and Cantha. They usually use words like "steamroll" and "bulldoze". As these ppl get used to 7 heroes, sooner or later, they'll start complaining that the game is too easy and start clamoring for greater difficulty, despite the fact that the difficulty was perfectly fine for a random PUG.
Just look at how ppl described taking 3 heroes through Tyria and Cantha. They usually use words like "steamroll" and "bulldoze". As these ppl get used to 7 heroes, sooner or later, they'll start complaining that the game is too easy and start clamoring for greater difficulty, despite the fact that the difficulty was perfectly fine for a random PUG.
Mr_T_bot
So? I don't care if I have the ability to easily finish chapters I barely got through on one character.
Samuel Dravis
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zinger314
I don't want to force people to play with each other. I want people to learn how to play and use henchmen, and not rely on more Heroes as a crutch.
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Honestly, I don't play GW to be frustrated. I want to be able to accomplish something. Adding a twist with 7 heroes will make it more interesting for me, because I'll be able to test out team builds. You could use it to steamroll earlier chapters, but that's going to be the same all the time. A lot of Prophecies skills are complete trash compared to the newer ones. Do you think that any GW1 or 2 monk antihex is better than Deny Hexes? I think that's about the same level of 'gamebreaking' that's going on here - sure, it upsets the balance, but only on chapters the skills weren't made for. And that's to be expected.
Queenie
Henchman > Heroes. imo :|
Personally, I wish anet would just get rid of heroes all together >_> they're dumber then henchies .__.
Personally, I wish anet would just get rid of heroes all together >_> they're dumber then henchies .__.
Quid Pro Quo
Quote:
Originally Posted by Queen Christie
Henchman > Heroes. imo :|
Personally, I wish anet would just get rid of heroes all together >_> they're dumber then henchies .__. |
FelixCarter
Quote:
Originally Posted by Queen Christie
Henchman > Heroes. imo :|
Personally, I wish anet would just get rid of heroes all together >_> they're dumber then henchies .__. |
From what Queen Christie said, I can guesstimate that she doesn't use Heroes at all. This is her preferred playing style. Does that make her "too powerful"? Does it "unbalance" the game because she knows how to control the henchmen better than Andy Goldsworthy controls icicles on a cold day?...
Erm.
No. I don't think so. Is she forced to use PuGs? No. Is she forced to use Heroes? Erm... Sometimes... But not by players. >.>
Anyways, my point is; who cares? You want to play the game with things that I find make the game more difficult. I want to play the game with things that you find make the game annoying.
How does me getting to the end of Nightfall with 7 Heroes effect you?
Answer: It doesn't. :/
freekedoutfish
Quote:
Originally Posted by Age
This one was easy if you left from Yaks bend with group of 6 instead of the Frontier Gate.
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After asking for about 45 minutes.
We then spent about 30 - 45 minutes getting over to FR.
Now I had read guildwiki and it said if your party died, you would all be kept in your 6 man team inside FR. So i was under the impression if we died, we wouldnt loose anyone.
We got there, did okish... but died. We're took to FR and the team was only 4people. The Heroes were removed.
So the moral of the story is this;
Had more people been doing those quest and we had 6 humans, chances are we would have still had a 6 man team in FR. But the heroes stopped us staying in a 6 man team.
Now thats not their fault, I had no choice by to use Heroes. This is why we need access to more lvl20 characters when we cant find humans.
Had I not found those other two humans, I would have been stuffed. Ive tried with just 4 and it never works.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zinger314
You forgot the "massively multiplayer" part of the term "MMORPG".
If something happens in the game, it affects everyone. |
The MM side of it comes in mostly with trading and PvP, and those really hard missions and quests where you need human intuition.
If Anet had launches GWs without henches and we didnt have Heroes and I was then saying "I want henches, I want Heroes", I could understand people complaining that it would effect the MM side of it.
But they have existed ingame for 2 years now, from day one. The choice to not use PUGs has always existed. In that case, you cant really say that GWs has ever been a PUG dominated game, because countless thousands of people have played through all 3 games using henches and Heroes.
From my experience (in the year and 1/2 ive played) PUGs have only ever been used for harder missions and quests. I've personnally not seen a decrease or increase in PUG numbers.
But I hardly use PUGs so Im not in a position to notice as much as others. I realise that.
But from personal experience and observation. I dont see an increase of heroes effecting PUG numbers, as areas will always exist where we need them. FOW, UW, DOA, SF, Faction elite areas.
But yes its MM in the respect that one persons actions effect anothers, which is where my next point comes on.....
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zinger314
I don't want to force people to play with each other. I want people to learn how to play and use henchmen, and not rely on more Heroes as a crutch.
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It isnt henches and Heroes which discourage me from playing in PUGs. Its the amount of time it takes to form one, and the sheer atittudes you have to endure 90% of the time once your in one.
PUGs can remove the enjoyment of the game, through stupidity, arguements and forcing you to do stuff you dont want to.
PUGs are not effected by Heroes and Henches. Their effected by the people in them, and the majority are anti-social and not fun to play with. This is why I have personally swayed away from playing in them. Because more often then not, you end up frustrated.
The only way we would ensure the safety and existance of PUGs in GWs is to remove the AI support. Something which wont happen, because it would alienat the thousands who dont like PUGing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Angel Netherborn
Just look at how ppl described taking 3 heroes through Tyria and Cantha. They usually use words like "steamroll" and "bulldoze". As these ppl get used to 7 heroes, sooner or later, they'll start complaining that the game is too easy and start clamoring for greater difficulty, despite the fact that the difficulty was perfectly fine for a random PUG.
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If they had their way, the entire game would all be one bit elite mission. Then once the entire game was made stupidly hard, someone would say "We need more heroes to help us" and their responce would be; "but that would make it to easy".
There is always someone winging that its too easy to play and the result is we end up with games like NightFall (which is a good game, I love it) which has quite obviously been made alot harder then its counterparts.
Something which was to cater for the elite players who felt it was too easy. So when the rest complain that the NF is too hard we get scorned for doing it.
Look at Searing flames for instance; A skill which has only existed for a few months, and yet it has taken one hell of a battering from PvP players saying it has made elementals too powerfull and made PvE too easy.
The responce is that it hasnt. Searing flames is a flawed spell which can drain your energy and render you useless until you recharge. Its only effective on mass.
But people still complain that it makes the game easier. But most of the people complaining are the elite, hardcore gamers, who want hard, frustrating, mind numbingly challenging gameplay.
Not everyone wants that. I like a good challenge and I dont want something to be a walk-over. But if every aspect of a game reduces you to frustration and takes 10 tries to accomplish, its not fun anymore.
7 heroes will add fun to the game, more customisation and interaction between your AI and yourself. It may make certain aspects easier, like previous campaigns, but it will other parts more fun to do.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Samuel Dravis
The problem is not that people need to learn how to play - it's that no one else seems to know how. The reason I don't pug much anymore is because the quality of people's skills are so low. I imagine that if people were able to put together a party wide build, that might help them learn how to play the game better. I personally would like that kind of freedom; it would be interesting to put some of my ideas into action without involving other people.
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I would personally find it alot more fun to be able to mix and match 7 heroes, then I would trying to put together a PUG that will probably fall apart when someone AFKs or leaves or someone has a difference of opinion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Queen Christie
Henchman > Heroes. imo :|
Personally, I wish anet would just get rid of heroes all together >_> they're dumber then henchies .__. |
Their obviously no comparison to a human mind.... most of the time. But would you rather a rude PUG or a controlling, skill settable Heroe?
My main point here is that it isnt Heroes or Henches who kill the PUG rate. Its the people who play in the PUGs. Its the anti-social, arrogant, elitism of other players who think they know better and try to control you.
90% of the time, if you join a players PUG, he thinks he can actually control you and instruct you like he would a Heroe. He/she demands you change your skill set and demands you use this technique and do exactly as he/she says, or your kicked.
The minute anything goes wrong, they blame everyone but themselves.
Im not suggesting that all PUGs are like that, but for anyone to deny that the majority of PUGs turn out bad is lying or in denial.
Dont blame Heroes just because their an effective alternative to joining a PUG. Giving us access to more Heroes will not effect the PUG rate. It will just give us a larger, more effective alternative to PUGs.
If you dont want to see PUGs dye out, then people need to grow up and start acting more mature and less arrogant. Dont blame the system just because most people in society are anti-social. Its the people who cause the anti-social behaviour.
But that wont happen because the vast majority of players are young teenager boys who think its cool to shout and scream and cause a scene (that rymed). Alot of them play the game because they havent developed any social-skills yet or they have problems making friends in real life and dont know how to interact with people properly.
We wont ever sort that problem out, but that doesnt mean Heroes are the cause and down-fall of PUGS.
Makkert
Quote:
Originally Posted by freekedoutfish
Why are we not allowed to have/use 7 Heroes?
I cant see any logical reason or agruement against it: Overpowerment? Allowing us to use 7 heroes of lvl20 would not be any more powerfull the letting us use 3 Heroes and 4 Henches of lvl20. They possess the same strength, armor, max weapons. |
Considering you can place isignias on armor of your heroes, they are not the same. And you can mod your weapons with hp mods, I believe henchies have a standard 480 hp...
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The only different is the way their attribute points are arranged and the skills they use, and their weapon mods. But mods and stats dont make a Heroe anymore powerfull then a regular hench. |
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Plus your no more overpowered then you would be with a full lvl20 PUG team. |
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Incourages less human interaction? How does using 7 heroes incourage us not to use PUGS, any more then using 3 heroes and 4 henches? |
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I would still choose henches and heroes over a PUG if I had to. |
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The user interface? You only have to add 4 more flags and give us add 4 more head slots to the hero and skill windows. |
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Allows you to have lvl20 AI in an area where the henches are a lower lvl? So what? we can already do that with the 3 Heroes we have, how would another 4 make a difference to that? In ascalon where you can only have 4 players, it allows you to have a full lvl20 team anyway. So why not in other locations? |
Not bothered to read on...
strcpy
So, lets see. Personally I have played almost 100% hench since the beginning - either 17 or 18 months now (haven't checked /age, was 17 a short while ago when I did). So, yes, I would *really* like an all hero party. Not only do I get tot run full party builds but I would get to play with builds that only guild or semi-organized pugs would - I would love that. I also agree that those that PUG will still do so, those that do not now will not in the future either. Too many PUG'ers are doing so because they are dragged through the game and can not hench/hero it (and adding a few more players who you can not play with, control, or create a useful build will help). Guilds may fill out a slot or two - but then heroes fill that slot.
However, I suspect that we will likely not see much above what we have for a while. For now, hench work well enough and this encourages a two person team. Like it or not, Anet has said they want to encourage team builds and PvE coming as close to PvP as possible (think on the last for a second - think of the AI changes that are gonna come up at some point because of that). So, anything other than 3 heroes per character breaks that.
That's not really a balance thing, as many have stated a group of full heroes is still not near what a full group of experienced people are - not by a long shot. So "overpowered" is somewhat silly - this is even true in that unless something is economy wide (say the inflation easy 105 monking had in the beginning) the only "balance" they care about is PvP.
Ah well, one can dream. I would love to see at least a hench team be available for all areas - including UW, FoW, and Elite Missions. I can live with hench, but not allowing them excludes a large amount of their player base who would stay around otherwise.
However, I suspect that we will likely not see much above what we have for a while. For now, hench work well enough and this encourages a two person team. Like it or not, Anet has said they want to encourage team builds and PvE coming as close to PvP as possible (think on the last for a second - think of the AI changes that are gonna come up at some point because of that). So, anything other than 3 heroes per character breaks that.
That's not really a balance thing, as many have stated a group of full heroes is still not near what a full group of experienced people are - not by a long shot. So "overpowered" is somewhat silly - this is even true in that unless something is economy wide (say the inflation easy 105 monking had in the beginning) the only "balance" they care about is PvP.
Ah well, one can dream. I would love to see at least a hench team be available for all areas - including UW, FoW, and Elite Missions. I can live with hench, but not allowing them excludes a large amount of their player base who would stay around otherwise.
strcpy
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Originally Posted by Makkert
heroes don't ragequit leave you. heroes don't afk. PUG's are often horribly coordinated or have terrible builds.
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Nubs, noobs, rage quitters, AFK'ers who ride on your ability to finish a mission, and people who are at end game content and can not formulate a build do not sound fun. I'll accept, and even enjoy, noobs - they are willing to learn. But the rest just make me not want to play the game. In fact, given how many there are in online games in general you can figure out why GW is the only online game on my computer and the only one I have played for more than three months or so.
If you want to convince us that PUG's are the lifeblood of the game you may want to go with a different tactic - as is I suspect this reminds even PUG lovers of their bad times.
Zedd Kun
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Originally Posted by FelixCarter
Anyways, my point is; who cares? You want to play the game with things that I find make the game more difficult. I want to play the game with things that you find make the game annoying.
How does me getting to the end of Nightfall with 7 Heroes effect you? Answer: It doesn't. :/ |
Yeah!! People complains about the game being too easy because of the heroes. If you think so, just don't use them! Stay solo or hench or whatever, noone else cares if you are "leet" enough to do it alone.
Let us have 7 heroes at one time!
Queenie
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Originally Posted by FelixCarter
EXACTLY! Another personal opinion FTW!
From what Queen Christie said, I can guesstimate that she doesn't use Heroes at all. This is her preferred playing style. Does that make her "too powerful"? Does it "unbalance" the game because she knows how to control the henchmen better than Andy Goldsworthy controls icicles on a cold day?... Erm. No. I don't think so. Is she forced to use PuGs? No. Is she forced to use Heroes? Erm... Sometimes... But not by players. >.> Anyways, my point is; who cares? You want to play the game with things that I find make the game more difficult. I want to play the game with things that you find make the game annoying. How does me getting to the end of Nightfall with 7 Heroes effect you? Answer: It doesn't. :/ |
gene terrodon
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Originally Posted by grottoftl
Zinger
Tell me how someone who wants to play with only heroes and henchmen will effect everyone else? or... Tell me why do you and others alike want to force people to play with each other? QFT |
No one is saying don't play with heroes and that you must play with PUGs.
What is happening is that the player base is first, spread among the three chapters. With a thinned out player base for each area, finding a group is going to be a bit more difficult. Throwing heroes in exacerbates this, as people gravitate towards heroes, further thinning the player base.
Contrary to popular belief, there are those who prefer to PUG.
When you are stating people are trying to force the players who like playing solo to PUG, you are off base not to mention such a feat would be next to impossible. What really is happing is that the people who like playing with PUGs are being forced to play solo. There are countless examples, in this thread and others that I have read. Unless you are doing PvP or have an established guild, the multiplayer aspect of PvE has been greatly diminished.
The complaint, with the PUG advocates is that the game, PvE, is no longer the multiplayer experience it once was and probably never will be.
To your point Zinger, if you (or anyone else) does not want to play with another live player, that is your choice and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. At all, to each's own.
In the same token, one player playing with heroes and henchmen doesn't affect the community, but a large percentage of the community playing that way further thins out a player base already spread thin because of the expanded GW world. Forcing players, who would otherwise play with live people, to use heroes and henchmen to advance. This is forcing a person to play the game in a manner, under prior circumstances; they would not have played previously.
Get it?
To Woodydotnet, I was not disagreeing with you at all. I was using you as an example of a person, other than myself, being forced to play in a manner they would not have. You, like me, would rather play with live players, but the fact that most people just take heroes and henchmen forced you to play through the game using heroes and henchman.
freekedoutfish
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Originally Posted by gene terrodon
Most of the advocates of heroes and henchmen are really missing the point and seems to me to have been the arrogant party leaders that demand specific builds and bark out orders like they are General Patton or someone, while using a build they found posted on wiki or in a forum somewhere.
No one is saying don't play with heroes and that you must play with PUGs. What is happening is that the player base is first, spread among the three chapters. With a thinned out player base for each area, finding a group is going to be a bit more difficult. Throwing heroes in exacerbates this, as people gravitate towards heroes, further thinning the player base. Contrary to popular belief, there are those who prefer to PUG. When you are stating people are trying to force the players who like playing solo to PUG, you are off base not to mention such a feat would be next to impossible. What really is happing is that the people who like playing with PUGs are being forced to play solo. There are countless examples, in this thread and others that I have read. Unless you are doing PvP or have an established guild, the multiplayer aspect of PvE has been greatly diminished. The complaint, with the PUG advocates is that the game, PvE, is no longer the multiplayer experience it once was and probably never will be. To your point Zinger, if you (or anyone else) does not want to play with another live player, that is your choice and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. At all, to each's own. In the same token, one player playing with heroes and henchmen doesn't affect the community, but a large percentage of the community playing that way further thins out a player base already spread thin because of the expanded GW world. Forcing players, who would otherwise play with live people, to use heroes and henchmen to advance. This is forcing a person to play the game in a manner, under prior circumstances; they would not have played previously. Get it? To Woodydotnet, I was not disagreeing with you at all. I was using you as an example of a person, other than myself, being forced to play in a manner they would not have. You, like me, would rather play with live players, but the fact that most people just take heroes and henchmen forced you to play through the game using heroes and henchman. |
As I mentioned in my stupidly long post. The majority of people in PUGs are rude, arrogant, immature idiots. People just dont want to put up with it and they shouldnt have to.
There are nice PUGs in GWs, but their few and far between.
This is why people are driven too and start to prefere henches and Heroes. If PUGs are to survive, then the general attitude of the people in them needs to change from elitism to actually having fun.
Otherwise why should people use them? this is why most PUGing is kept inside guilds, because you know and trust them. It saves you having to endure some trigger happy warrior or a smiting monk or the rest, or just general anti-social attitudes.
Frank Dudenstein
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Originally Posted by freekedoutfish
But as someone else said, a team of 7 heroes and yourself is no more overpowered then a full lvl20 PUG team.
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A team of level 10 heroes is more powerful than most Leve20 pugs....
Sophitia Leafblade
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Originally Posted by Angel Netherborn
Just look at how ppl described taking 3 heroes through Tyria and Cantha. They usually use words like "steamroll" and "bulldoze". As these ppl get used to 7 heroes, sooner or later, they'll start complaining that the game is too easy and start clamoring for greater difficulty, despite the fact that the difficulty was perfectly fine for a random PUG.
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Heros are no smarter than Henchies, the only difference is u can change their build to suit the area your in making the team work a little more effectivly.
TideSwayer
This is the bottom line:
I'm always going to take an MM hero because that's tedious work done automatically for you and it is a valuable asset to most PvE areas of the game.
I'm always going to take a customized Monk hero because I want the monk to use the skillbar I think it should use, not a henchmen monk that people have been complaining about since day one. (Although, to be honest, Kihm seems to do a decent job as a secondary monk to my Hero Monk.)
Many missions in the game require you to take a hero with you for the 'storyline' aspect.
There's my three hero slots right there, used up. Most of my heroes never even get used because of the lowly three slots. That's my biggest problem. The major NF addition - heroes - isn't being used to maximum effect, and to be honest it's starting to get to me. I want to have the option to bring full-hero crazy party build setups and try out random stuff like that when I'm bored. However, I'm forced to take 4 henchmen who rarely even bring along skills that would be useful for the area/mission I want to play, and are also set to the crappy 'fight' stance where they aggro everything and don't listen.
Let us have the option to bring 7 heroes if travelling alone. If you don't like it, or wouldn't bother using it, then don't freaking use it. Above all else, don't argue against the possibility of ANet adding more variety to a game that could freakin' use it. Why do people do this? At the very least, the game could use more hero slots for PvE if not the 'full' 7.
Regarding the addition of more flags to satisfy this change, I'd say leave it at three flags but allow us to group up our heroes/henchmen in any combination we desire under each of our existing three flags. ANet, you know that snazzy new Party Window that was just added (that still needs more work btw) ? This would be a GREAT place to have a flag group ordering area.
Also, please set the henchmen default AI to 'Guard' and not 'Fight'. 'Fight' is the kind of AI that the new hero system is supposed to get us away from, but right now Devona still loves to aggro everything in sight and not listen. 'Fight' is bad for reasons previously stated, and I found that when a hero was set to 'Avoid', it ended up taking more damage just from running away from damage sources all the time rather than staying pat and trying to defend himself/herself. I just use 'Guard' on everyone.
I'm always going to take an MM hero because that's tedious work done automatically for you and it is a valuable asset to most PvE areas of the game.
I'm always going to take a customized Monk hero because I want the monk to use the skillbar I think it should use, not a henchmen monk that people have been complaining about since day one. (Although, to be honest, Kihm seems to do a decent job as a secondary monk to my Hero Monk.)
Many missions in the game require you to take a hero with you for the 'storyline' aspect.
There's my three hero slots right there, used up. Most of my heroes never even get used because of the lowly three slots. That's my biggest problem. The major NF addition - heroes - isn't being used to maximum effect, and to be honest it's starting to get to me. I want to have the option to bring full-hero crazy party build setups and try out random stuff like that when I'm bored. However, I'm forced to take 4 henchmen who rarely even bring along skills that would be useful for the area/mission I want to play, and are also set to the crappy 'fight' stance where they aggro everything and don't listen.
Let us have the option to bring 7 heroes if travelling alone. If you don't like it, or wouldn't bother using it, then don't freaking use it. Above all else, don't argue against the possibility of ANet adding more variety to a game that could freakin' use it. Why do people do this? At the very least, the game could use more hero slots for PvE if not the 'full' 7.
Regarding the addition of more flags to satisfy this change, I'd say leave it at three flags but allow us to group up our heroes/henchmen in any combination we desire under each of our existing three flags. ANet, you know that snazzy new Party Window that was just added (that still needs more work btw) ? This would be a GREAT place to have a flag group ordering area.
Also, please set the henchmen default AI to 'Guard' and not 'Fight'. 'Fight' is the kind of AI that the new hero system is supposed to get us away from, but right now Devona still loves to aggro everything in sight and not listen. 'Fight' is bad for reasons previously stated, and I found that when a hero was set to 'Avoid', it ended up taking more damage just from running away from damage sources all the time rather than staying pat and trying to defend himself/herself. I just use 'Guard' on everyone.
Str0b0
It's difficult enough trying to micro-manage 3 when you have to I can hardly comprehend what it would be like to micro-manage 7. 3 is sufficient for most tasks IMHO.
Torikae
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Originally Posted by TideSwayer
Let us have the option to bring 7 heroes if travelling alone. If you don't like it, or wouldn't bother using it, then don't freaking use it. Above all else, don't argue against the possibility of ANet adding more variety to a game that could freakin' use it. Why do people do this? At the very least, the game could use more hero slots for PvE if not the 'full' 7.
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I'm for it.
If I want to PUG, I PUG, and fill the gaps with henchies / heroes.
If I want to go alone, I'll take 3 Heroes and 4 Henchies.
So... this wouldn't change anything except letting me have more fun with team builds when I go alone.
It wouldn't dissuade me from PUGing, anymore than 3 heroes has.
If I really don't want to PUG a particular mission, I'll take henchies over real people. So why not seven heroes?
As for micro-management, I don't usually. It's not necessary - after all, everything's still hench-able, and one needn't micro-manage henchies. If you want to give yourself more work, you can, but otherwise, 7 customisable heroes working just on AI still > henchies with set builds, right?
It's not really adding to anyone's workload. You wouldn't HAVE to take them.
Sir Skullcrasher
Last night, Alliance members were saying the Zhed doesn't use certain skills and i notice that most of my heroes don't use particular skills at the right time.