[Dev Update] Razah, Questing, & You

Fair does not mean that everybody walks away happy.

I remember the days when I thought it did. I was about 12.

if you want to be an elitist asshole go play another MMO...guildwars was created for that 20min to 1hr gamer...

frankly DOA was boring and hard...hard an fun I'd do it, fun and easy I'd definately do it, boring and easy and at least it's over quick

and I hope you weren't one of those who's whining resulted in the new philosophy for GW2 cause that'd just make you an asshole and a hypocrite

Ok, Then why arn't the Acoylate's really hard to get?

Why is FoW armor more expensive? Skin. It has absolutly no utilitarian value. Razah does. Razah is my favorite profession, but he costs more than my 15k armor sets. Guild Wars isn't Grind Wars. If it's not utlitarian in function, They have it hard to get, as a status symbol. IE: A max sword isn't hard to get. Axes and hammers may be easier, but does that mean swords should be insanely hard to obtain?

So why should razah be so hard to get? The quest is harder than any other hero gaining quest. but add 80-100K costs, wow. just wow.

did i say anything about the majority. there were many people in this thread that said they didnt like it without having to be a kid about it, that is what im talking about. Its not your opinion, its the way you choose to go about expressing it.


way to dodge the topic at hand and miss the point at the same time. There is no cheap alterative to having a rit hero which is why razah shouldnt be so hard to get, unless they added another rit hero. Fissure armor is a diffrent story, because its only a diffrent skin and has the same stats as normal armor which is available to casual players and those who cant afford the expensive skins.

OMG
<_< >_>
I know this is a bit off-topic... but... /SIGNED

<_< >_>

As much as I don't like the attitude, I kind of agree. I am sick of only having FoW armor and like 2 weapons that are truly special, or "elite" as you called it, and even those are ridiculously easy to get as it is. I felt the "this game is for casual so if you have time go F**K off" mood quite a while ago....how hard is it to just add in a pink long sword, or crystalline with lightning, a plasma looking sword or a flashing aura armor, and put them in NPC for 10 million or something...even in the cosmetic department I feel KOiBD , at least let me parade my minipet set if I pay 10k for 10 minute or something.

Hopefully GW2 will correct that, but I'm having doubts.

Not sure what this "new philosophy for GW2" is, so I don't think I was...

Guild Wars was created for the casual gamer. The primaries are easy to complete playing casually, DoA, Razah, other elite missions, titles etc. are all secondary bonuses. It is easy to get on for 20min and have fun, Guild Wars is no longer anywhere near free of grind, though, it is everywhere (see below for examples). I have never been in a DoA group, it is MY CHOICE. It is a bonus area.

Do not call me an "elitist asshole" because I feel some things should be worked for.

How many times do I have to say it, he is hard to get because he was supposed to be a challenge. Not sure what "why arn't the Acoylate's really hard to get?" means....

Guild Wars has become full of Grind, DoA is nothing but grind, same with the other elite missions. Sunspear points, and Faction points are required grind (Sunspear isn't required for foreign chars anymore, though). Getting FoW armor and 15k armor sets has grind. Almost all of the titles require grind. So don't tell me it isn't "Grind Wars" because it is everywhere, there is just minimal grind through the primaries, Razah is not a primary.

its a nice find but a shame i jsut got all the gems for him today, after farming foundry for 4 days straignt i finaly completed it and got 3 drops for me. so thats 1 of each and 3 titan. at least i can make myself some money. i like this update, tho i think Razah should b a challange, he still is with that hard missson. but atleast hes free. why should u have to pay for him unlike every other hero? not every one cant spend 4- hours on the trot gatting gem stones its a bugger i know that

Whooohooo... GG Gaile, now I get my gemstones back... YES

And you continue to miss the point over and over and over again. Or you're just ignoring it on purpose because you dont have an argument against it.

Razah is the ONLY ritualist hero. Why should he be some "elite" hero that's more expensive than most sets of armor and weapons to get? While he isnt quite a "must have" (nothing in the game truly is) he is part of the gameplay the way the other heroes and henchies are.

As others have pointed out and you conveniantly ignore time and time again, if there were another Ritualist hero to get, then this wouldnt have been a problem. But no, you keep insisting on being selfish just so you can hold on to your fragile ego boosting elite status.

Seriously, I groan whenever people make "But he's no longer elite because everyone has it" statments. I've done the same accomplishments, so big freaking deal. Let others have their fun too, eh?

As one who invested a couple hundred hours into a Ritualist primary character, I simply don't agree with this. Fortunately, Anet doesn't either.

Though not a core profession, Ritualist is a primary profession. Having a Ritualist hero is not an unnecessary bonus, anymore than having a Monk hero is. I bought Nightfall specifically for the heroes feature, and felt that a large percentage of my personal investment in time and plat spent unlocking skills for the Ritualist wasn't appropriately recognized by Nightfall.

Remember how during Factions, we who were focused more on PvE were having somewhat of a hard time, and how we felt that PvE as a whole was being ignored? Nightfall offered much as a direct response to this, but then didn't reward those who played Factions PvE as a Ritualist.

What really irks me is that one has to play through the entire Nightfall campaign before getting the Ritualist at all. Getting the Paragon late makes sense, because of the storyline and because it is a Nightfall profession. But if one wants to play through Factions PvE with a new character and a Ritualist hero (/sigh, would be a lot of fun), they've got to stop playing the storyline and go through the entire Nightfall campaign, then return to Factions storyline, blowing the continuity.

My vote is to make the quest to get Razah available at the same point as Zenmai and Olias - at least once he's been unlocked in PvE. That way we could use him with Factions and Prophecies characters without needing to play through Nightfall several times over.

Why do you feel that Razah should be worked for? His only distinguishing feature is that his primary profession is ritualist.

I don't think there is a reason to having such a barrier to getting him beyond "that's how it was done until now."

But Razah is not replaceable any other way. Most "elite" items are variations on stuff you can already get, but looks prettier or more interesting. A tormented sword won't ever do more damage than a long sword I have crafted or get from a collector, it just looks different from any other sword you can get.

Obviously, making Razah a challenge didn't work, unless you think that sweeping Pongmei Valley and Xaquang Skyway (or wherever you prefer) a few dozen times is somehow challenging. Being able to save 80 platinum to pay for the gemstones doesn't show anyone that you're l33t or awesome. It shows you can farm. Sure, some people do go into the DoA to get their Razah the hard way, but how can you really separate them from the people who just farm?

What's so important about Razah being hard to get?

And how come Razah was a pain in the ass to get, and getting Zenmai was easy?

I can make this comparison because they're both not "primaries", as if it matters.

...and you could play that 20 minutes to 1 hour of Guild Wars without Razah.

And you can play it without Koss or Dunkoro, too. What's your point?

It doesn’t really matter who doesn’t like this… it’s going to happen, and I’m going to get Razah. Then, to top it off, I’m going to find out who doesn’t like it, find their favorite restaurants and buy Razah an expensive dinner there. When you walk in Razah and I will wave once, then ignore you, and after we eat and have a bottle of wine we’ll skip out the door arm in arm giggling while you think about the way things used to be, when Razah was all yours.

Yes, I find this whole line of argument to be rather silly.

Yup, that is exactly my point. Besides there is a ton of things throughout Guild Wars that can't be played in 20min to an hour.

You entirely missed my point, I meant the Razah quest isn't a primary
this is referring to primary quests, not professions.

And how come it is so much easier to go outside of ToA and kill a Bog Skale than to go to DoA and kill a Margonite?

Neither of them are primaries, yet it is so much easier to kill a Bog Skale. Of course it matters.

I never said "But he's no longer elite because everyone has it".

Yes it still would have been a problem if there was another Ritualist hero, someone would find a way to complain about how a hero should not cost money. Someone will always find a way to complain.

Razah wasn't even here before DoA, nobody seemed to have trouble doing anything without him. So just because he is available he should be easy to get? Having Razah doesn't make the team better than one who doesn't, he just offers a different option.

"While he isnt quite a "must have" (nothing in the game truly is) he is part of the gameplay the way the other heroes and henchies are." So because an Elite Skill is part of game play but I can't get to it unless I get to RoT they should have to put it on Istan? Any skill that I can't get until a later part of the game for that matter. While an Elite Skill may not be the best comparison, the view stays the same, anything that requires work and money should be handed to you if it is part of game play? No work required?

Skills significantly enhance game play, Razah may also. Razah or ZB? I would take ZB, thank you (yeah that is my opinion, others may take Razah. If you would take Razah over ZB, think of a skill that would enhance your game play).

He may not be replaceable with a Ritualist Hero, but you can replace him with anything. Just like you would when he wasn't around, just like you would when Heroes were not around. He is replaceable with a different profession, but people see something new or different, and want it.

Exactly. However, I'm having a hard time finding PuG's (or any groups for that matter) who will let Razah into the party. In one group, I wanted to add him as a healer just to mix things up. The leader told me to drop the rit and add a monk. I resisted saying that Razah will heal just fine. Next thing I know, he drops me. *shrug*

At least we're equal here because I entirely missed the point of your post too.

You could have stopped with the bolded text, as everything you say after has no relevance. He's not replaceable with a ritualist hero, full stop, end of sentence. That alone is reason for him to be accessible to anyone.

I don't necessarily want Razah because he's new or different. I want Razah because like necromancer, monk, and elementalist, ritualist is one of most thoroughly unlocked professions on my account. I can't give any non-Rit hero my favorite rit builds as they rely on spawning power skills.

Yes. There will always be a complainer. Take your posts for instance. So what's your point?


And just because others will get Razah more easily doesnt change how your team works. The only thing it changes is how your precious Razah is no longer elite to you.

Sorry but giving people more options and utility far outweighs your need to feel special.

What? Primary of what?

And qouted for truth.

But capturing an elite skill doesnt force you to to do a bunch of hhihg level quests that take hours each to complete just so you can do another quest to unlock them.

Your examples make no sense. Especially cause people dont complain about those other things. The only problem here is you wont stop complaining cause you can't be "leet" anymore.

Anet changes this because they saw it was something that should be changed. Its also why they havent made FoW armor easier to get even though people complaind. Becasue tehy only adjust the reasonable complaints

Razah was anounced before the game came out, he was called a variable hero. lots of people got excited caus they wanted to make him a rit, since there was no other rit heros. Then he finally came out and people realzied they had to go through some very tough quests, ones that almost impossible to do with a pug, and can;t be done alone since there are no henchmen. ( I bet now you are going to say something about FoW and UW being the same way, but you dont have to use any rare items from them to unlock anything).

Now, if there was rit hero available in the game besides razah, I would see your point. but right now you are just complaining for selfish reasons, and not objectivly.

No, I got your point. You don't feel that having Razah is necessary.

Those who don't get why a Ritualist hero is important clearly didn't spend much time playing one as a character. Olias is not a Ritualist alternative.

Best post of the thread.

Any chance my proposed alternative may be feasible?

It is meant to simply provide a placeholder ritualist hero that is not Razah, but at a more-attainable way so that everyone can have. (Think of it like if Razah is the FOW armour at one end, then this placeholder hero is meant to be the collector/Dorks armour at the other end) In addition, also make this placeholder hero available much earlier in the game than endgame so can have missions to do with.

And, while at the same time, this alternative is not changing anything related to Razah that people are getting upset about.

Can it work for everyone? Is it feasible?

If this upgrade process from a placeholder ritualist to Razah can be pulled off, then maybe just maybe one day we can see quests for giving up "Razah Rt" to get "Razah W", "Razah Mo", or ... etc.(...though that maybe a bit too much wishful thinking )

My point is that it wouldn't have been any different had there been another Ritualist hero. What is your point?

My need to feel special? I said before that I don't care that Anet is making Razah more accessible. I said I don't like the fact that people were complaining about it being too hard, instead of being in game farming the gold.

The Razah quest and Zenmai quest are not primary quests, as you said. You asked why Razah's is so much harder than Zenmai's. So I asked (yes my question was rhetorical, I believe yours was too.) why a Margonite in DoA was so much harder to kill than a Bog Skale outside of ToA. Neither are in a primary area.

You can buy a gem set you know....

I wasn't saying people did. He said Razah was a part of game play. Elite Skills are a part of game play, that doesn't mean they should be handed to you.
I wasn't complaining because I'm not "leet" anymore...

My point was not the reward, but the objective. The objective would be to get to the boss and capture an Elite Skill, the reward would be having the Elite Skill. My point was, people are complaining about the objective being too hard, and they should not have to pay the 4 gems to complete the quest. My example with an Elite Skill is that if the objective is to get to RoT, kill the boss, and capture the skill, why should I have to go to RoT? Why can't you put it on Istan? After all, they are part of game play.... Selfish?!

Correction: "a Ritualist is important" to you. N/Rt are in fact great Ritualists (Soul Reaping is quite nice). However, you are right. Olias is not equal to a ritualist, but he could be an alternative to one.

Correct, he is not necessary. That was not my point. Razah's quest is not a primary (as in, you don't have to complete it to finish the game.)

I believe, based on the threads about Razah, that a ritualist hero is important to quite a few people.

And since N/Rt can't benefit from spawning power, it doesn't really make them great ritualists. It makes them okay substitutes, but so do rangers with high expertise.

But it's not important now - Olias or Jin or whoever doesn't need to be a substitute/bargain ritualist because Razah will be available with reasonable effort.

Which is irrelevant.

because you can get to RoT through normal gameplay and dont need a group to even get it. getting to RoT doesnt cost you 100k nor does it require many hours of gameplay to finish quests to get too.

point is some people really want to use a Rit hero, but he is made so hard to get its out of reach of most normal players. Anet made it about way more then just the challange when they made him the only rit hero. Once again, though would not have done this if there was a normal rit hero, even if people complaind

Every other high level challange in the game gives rewards of rare skins, razah was the only exception which is why it will be getting changed. It was an oversight by anet, and should have been made to not have a cost to start with. That is what you continue to refuse to understand.

So you like examples, please give me an example of rewards of elite level content that gives you something that normal players cant get sans the look or said items.

All of your other examples are irrelevent to the topic at hand, and you have yet to make a solid reason as to why he should remain hard to get.

Thats interesting because when it comes to actual application, I cannot find a single group that wants me to add the ritualist hero and I've had Razah for awhile now. When I add him, people tell me to remove him. From personal experience, all people want is an MM, a fire elementalist (god forbid I use any of the other elements), or a monk.

AWESOME. Thumbs up to the devs!

Why are your posts so against this update then? Why do your posts argue against every person that thought this was a good update? You sure dont sound like you dont care, you're even telling people that they should have been farming the hold instead.

No, it sounds like you have issues against how people are now getting the same thing that you have. I still dont understand how this affects you. You already have Razah. You already completed the challenge and you got your satisfaction from it, so even if the quest itself were easier it doesnt affect you.

I guess I don't really understand whats wrong with this line of thinking, even if it were true. *shrug*

I think you can separate "whatever cookie cutter team build your pugs want" from "what people are saying they want on the forum" pretty handily.

Are you going to deny that there have been several threads, each filling several pages with posts asking Anet for an easier way to get Razah or a rit hero in general?

It's called an analogy. Let me put it in a sentence you can actually understand.... This requires you to go from point A to point B, talk to John Doe. Mr. Smith now says that because it is part of 'this that' that you should have to skip point B (which requires more work) .

Now does that mean that anything that is part of 'this that' should be easy/easier to get?

He is right, everyone prefers the "holy trinity" as I see it (damage dealer [ele], damage absorber [MM, and actually the minions] and damage mitigater [monk]) and not a ritualist.

People are only complaining about wanting an easier way to get Razah because they want what everyone else gets. So if you are homeless, peering into the window of a restaurant and see someone with a steak, you should get a steak also? (For you, Exoudeous: Jane sees John with This, Jane should get This also?)

Why wouldnt it be wrong? He has no right to complain that others are getting Razah especially since he gets the gems back. Heck, I'm glad that I'm getting the gems back. Basically any extra "effort" made will be refunded. The next people who get Razah will not be making any less of an effort. We should be happy that we're getting something back instead of worrying about how others can get Razah now too.

Geez, there's always a few selfish twits who try to ruin it for everyone.

There's really nothing to be said after seeing this quote....

oh really smart guy? I know what an analogy is, to bad you still dont get that yours doesn't work in this situation. Don't talk down to me, cause you are the one that has the lack of knowledge here.

YOU are the one not getting how gw works. every ( AND THAT MEANS EVERY SINGLE ONE) rare item has a cheap common equivalent in this game, In fact its the whole point guild wars is based off of, to make a game that you can be on equal footing with some one without havingto spend so much time on the game. Razah does not have a cheap equivalent, instead of making a cheap equivalent, Anet just decided to give access to razah himself. If you think the game should be about hard challanges that not everyone should be able to get access to, then you are playing the wrong game

Thus far you have shown a lack of knowledge of how this game works in any way. and you keep saying you don't care that Anet is doing it. its growing more and more obvious you are just upset that anyone can get him now.

you have very little knowledge of the game to be dictating how much work someone should do to get something. If anet really thought things were fair as is, they wouldn't be changing anything, they would ignore the complainers just like they did for all the people that complain about fissure armor being to much.

ANSWER THIS: dont dodge it this time. name any other elite content in the game that gives you items that can not be recived otherwise in the game through other ways or more comon skins. I'll save you time and give you the answer, there are none except for razah and thats why anet is changing it. dotn give the "oh it was supposed to be a challange " answer again cause you have used it too many times

So judging how I post means I have very little knowledge of this game, huh? Please tell me why I have a lack of knowledge about this game (please quote me on it).
ArenaNet wouldn't have changed anything unless people had asked. So obviously ArenaNet did think things were fair as is (they just need a little push to see the community didn't think things were fair).

Sorry if I am just tired, but did I mention any Rare Weapons? There is no exact non-elite equivalent to an elite skill. Rare Weapons have exact equivalents except for the skin.

Elite skills are very similar to the Razah situation, no elite skill has a non-elite equivalent (yeah, similar skills but not the same. Olias can be used similarly to Razah, they just wont do the same things as good). Armor does have equivalents, weapons do have equivalents, Elite Skills do not.

If one looks back upon this thread, hardly anybody was complaining about it being too hard - most everyone for the change was excited about the news, saying thank yous and adding positive comments. The majority of complaints and negative comments are posted by those who don't like the news.

Gaile posted this thread to share the development and get feedback. It's embarrassing how far the thread has devolved from any meaningful discussion and strayed off-topic. The quest is being changed, and debating with one another over the reasons or merits of it is immaterial, as is flaming or insulting each other over it.

Sure wish a moderator would come in here and clean things up a bit, or at least curb the pedantic mudslinging and condescending insults. I don't see how allowing that is helpful to Anet or the forum.

elite skills are part of the game and arnt even hard to get, they are only elite cause you can use one at a time. not elite signifying they are hard to get. You also do not have to quest for hours or spend 100k to get 1 single elite skill. so hows is this similar to razah? especially becasue i see no one saying elite skills are hard to get.

once again your analogy is horrible and out of place.

/sigh... Once again you fail to see that it is an example, not the exact same thing. As I said: A to B (B being the hardest part) talk to C. I fail see how it is "horrible and out of place." when the idea remains the same. Are you just not seeing the idea?

how do i fail to see the example, im looking at it and makes no sense. maybe you need to realize just cause it makes sesne in your mind doesnt mean the rest of the world will get it.

elite skills arnt even close to being a good example. and neither is the point A to point c example. because there is no other example in the game like the razah situation, which is why its getting changed. look at teh forum, people do alot more complaining about everything else. IN FACT razah was probably the least concern of the community, but anet is still changing it. how many threads have you seen talking about razah?

if i saw it from your view, would i even be here arguing?