Access to Unlocked Skills in PvE

Guild Wars was essentially based on the idea of a player's skill being more important than the time a player put into the game. Bassicly, player skill vs character skill.

This thread is in regards to skill acquisition. There was an update a while back that made unlocked skills available at skill trainers to be bought. I was thrilled with this, but truly all it did was give you access to buying them sooner than was originally available via quests/trainers.

Why can we not just immediately gain access to skills we've already unlocked? Granted, that may not be the best option, but the issue is thus:

1. Experimentation in PvE is just as fun to me as it is in PvP. Without it, I don't PvE anymore at all. The storyline and normal battle mechanics, monster AI, etc just aren't enough for me.

2. The time it takes to reacquire the same skills on a different character is absurd. True, just getting 8 skills so that you can play isn't difficult, but honestly that just isn't fun to me.

3. Ascending, or the equivalent in the other chapters, gets you the ability to change your secondary. Well, all the non-class specific quests you've already completed are locked now, so you can't get the skills for your new secondary that way. That leaves doing quest after quest for the skills (which you may already have unlocked prior), or grinding for gold/skill points.

I know I'm just attacking the problems I see here, and some people might think it fun to do quests over and over for each character. Some people enjoy the grinding for gold/skill points, but I just didn't think GW was meant to have any of those kind of requirements. Having to spend so much time working before you can be experimental with skills you've already unlocked in the past simply stinks.

Also, if you can think of ANY reason whatsoever that even comes close to being logical as to why it shouldn't be changed, please post it. Even if you vote yes, post. I'm darned well intent on getting the devs to at least second guess themselves on this subject if nothing else. The more debate within the thread, the more we can either prove or disprove the issue.

this is PVE not PVP so the rules are different.

what you are asking for is the insta farming build of the day without even working for the skills.

shot down in the suggestion forum many times already.

Could you explain that a little more?

Actually, no.. I don't farm. Farming in GW is pretty much pointless.
Besides, if you've already acquired the skills on one character.. what's the difference in having them on another?

The idea could be twisted to just about any form, as long as there isn't a requirement to spend an immense amount of time working to be able to do something you've already done the work for. For example, you might have to ascend for the ability. You might only gain access to skills you've unlocked on classes other than your primary. Something to where you can actually change your build around without having to play through the entire game using a non-fun build first.

If it's been shot down so many times, I'm curious as to why. I don't have a problem with the working for a reward mindset, but the only occurances of that process in GW are either cosmetic or title related. Items, level, title, etc are all arbitrary numbers. Your ability to play as a person is what makes or breaks you, not the amount of time you've spent playing that specific character.

Please, try to elaborate a little bit more if I'm just beating a dead horse. Pointing to other similar threads would also be a great help to me to understand why the community here is against the idea. I just don't want to 'revive' old dead threads, but rementioning an old idea shouldn't be too much of a problem I wouldn't think since Andrew specifically suggested posting on this forum as well as other primary PvE communities.

I'm far from being a common Guru member, so if a moderator would be kind enough to place this thread where-ever it is deemed appropriate, I'd greatly appriciated it.

There are a few things that keep me from fully enjoying PVE because of unnecessary restrictions due to narrow "RPG" views.

One is limited ability to create an entire team build (unless I drag other people into it) because you can only have 3 heroes on a team and the rest are a mish mash of professions and skills.

Another is having to buy skills that I've already unlocked over and over again on different characters. I have an R/P and a Paragon but I've pretty much neglected my Paragon simply because I already unlocked a bunch of Paragon skills with my Ranger. I simply dont even bother trying to make different builds in PVE anymore and that's one reason why PVE is cookie cutter central.

[QUOTE]my apologies for being abrupt.

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Maybe part of the reasoning is that a new character with fully unlocked skills might be a little overpowered in those low level areas.

I think its because it makes pve totally pointless. Being able to put your unlocked skills on your heroes means that you could go through the whole game with nothing more than the skills you get from tutorials and a longbow.

If you could get all the skills you already unlocked, and I'm assuming you can use your skills better than the 'AI', you could probably solo close to the first half of every campaign. Well, except for maybe factions, since that was so short anyway. Certainly for tyria, you should be able to solo practically all the way to THK. And thats just cause its hard to guard the gates or camp the king with one person. And nightfall, you could probably solo pretty well into the RoT.

And if you can use all unlocked skills, why stop there? You may as well get given max armour and weapons from the start. And all unlocked runes and insignias. And inscriptions and mods. And why do we have to lvl up a new character at all? My other character is already lvl20 so why can't all my characters start lvl20? And why even bother with fixed primaries? Just let us reroll our pve character whenever we want right? Hell, just make the pve character creation just like pvp character creation, max lvl, max armour and gear, all mods and skills. So what's the point of pve now? You already got everything, so even farming with your max builds, what would you spend your money on? So we don't need pve at all really, just remove it from the game then, right?

And limiting it to people who have ascended? Hell, if you had all skills, you could ascend probably within a few hours of starting a new character. People have beaten their doubles below lvl10, beating the celestials with a host of lvl20 henchies is easy, and nightfall? You could solo that. It just comes down to getting there. Nightfall and factions, as long as you're a foreigner, its easy as since the "ascension" missions are like the second or third mission for foreigners. And prophs? If you had all the skills, and the cash and gear from your xunlai, you could run or pay for a run to the desert in no time flat.

As for letting us use 7 heroes instead of 3, well, I'm for that. But it would also mean that people would probably never party with anyone outside their guild ever again. And pve with an 8 man team build? You'd roll everything in your path. And I don't just mean how you crush pve right now, with 3 heroes. I'm talking almost the order of a guild team stomping pve. All you need is a longbow, then you just sit back and watch things die. You might as well just make pve into a movie, the inbetween battles are non events, so you really just sit there and watch the cutscenes.

I disagree. Skills will still be a lot less effective since you're low level with very little attribute points. And arent all skills theoretically supposed to be equal to each other anyway?

Why grind out the gold when you can just buy it from ebay? Some one needs to make sure the gold farmers and bots are paid.

I am sorry guys, but I still don't understand. The first trainer you come across in any chapter gives you access to your unlocks for that chapter's skills to buy from them.

The difference in being able to just have them vs buying them is the quantity and the fact that you have to work for it currently, wasting time and effort.

Being able to change your build around is a handy dandy thing. If you haven't unlocked the skill yet, you shouldn't be able to have access to it.. but if you already have unlocked it, don't make me unlock it again and again.

Most of the arguements were given in regards to refund points way back as well. Those that aren't similar to that debate, that us freedom seekers won out on, are indeed similar to the complaints about the AI running from AoE.

The game is easy already, too easy. Hard Mode is comming, thankfully. Having access to your unlocked skills could even be a Hard Mode exclusive.

Farmers are against it because they've already worked for their skills and want everyone else to as well? That's, no offense, stupid.

Because limiting skills is the last think that makes PvE even remotely challenging.

Once you have access to all, along with heroes, PvE is a complete and utter joke.

Games are a waste of time - entertainment, something to do when you're bored. It's something you put effort in when you're not interested into productive things.

Why does Final Fantasy have a story? I mean, it's all about beating the game. Why does it make you waste time and effort doing all the meaningless tasks when you could just view all the interesting scenes.

It's a game. That is the ruleset. If you want a skill, you need to pay money. If you use a skill, you spend energy and deal damage. There is no higher purpose or understanding to it. It's how it is.

Isnt that more of a problem with PVE itself being a joke rather than skill and hero access? PVE in GW is completely repetitive and predictable. Those things have nothing to do with skills making it a joke.

There's unproductiveness for fun and there's unproductiveness. Watching the grass grow is unproductive too but is it fun? Buying repeat skills is pointless. I dont see how it brings any fun at all. Do you actually stand there at the skill trainer and exclaim, "Woohoo! I got Burst of Agression! Again!"

And that's why I dont play FF. A lot of meaningless tasks and I dont find the scenes interesting at all.

So, you only play to re-acquire skills? You think re-acquiring skills is challenging? You even think it's enjoyment? We must be two totally different kinds of people for me to enjoy doing something the first time and lose interest the 5th or 6th, while you are able to do the same thing over and over without losing interest.

Couldn't you do that early in the game or late in the game, either one?

Having skill A vs skill B wasn't supposed to make that big of a difference in GW to begin with. Most people who play PvE aren't that good at all at the game, they are just good at seeing what the AI does and abusing it.

When you're bored, you enjoy building houses or mowing lawns? I know I sure don't. When I'm bored, I like to bowl. I go to the movies. I play video games.

You know the difference between your average video game and the good ones? Time spent grinding. You know what grind is? Doing repetitive tasks that don't actually further your progress in the game, but builds up a stat of some sort. Wether it be level, gold, or the number of skills you have. GW was originally designed and described as being a game where you could get into it quickly, high end gameplay didn't require work, etc. Skill acquisition in it's current form is none of those things outside of work/time.

If I can put on the box that it's 60 hours of game time vs 30 hours, I might make 25% more sales. You know why? People automatically assume that the amount of content is why it's 60 vs 30. When, in reality, it's because a lot of areas you won't be able to just go from point a to b, you have to walk back and forth between them killing stuff to progress your character.

GW was never designed to be about character progression. It's about Player progression. Player skill, not your character's. If you're good enough, then you should be able to do a heck of a lot more than someone who's not that good. No matter if it's PvP, PvE, you just started the game or they've been playing for years. It's about a player's ability, similar to how a FPS or RTS works. Yes, knowledge about the game is usually required, which does take time, but if you've already gained the knowledge, then the rest of the time should be spent having fun...not working.

Why do you guys fear change so much? Why do you need something to spend hundreds of hours on, when most RPGs only last 50ish hours anyhow? How can you call something that is purely work, not progressing anything but a very little bit of character development, fun?

I agree with you Mythics. Grinding out the skills for every character, in a word, sucks. I've busted my ass getting all skills on my warrior, but all my other characters are seriously lacking because of it, and I really don't feel like grinding for them to even unlock (even though they are already unlocked) all the skills for their primary professions.

Rebuying unlocked skills in a game this bloated is bull. Hereoes already have access to them immediately. Player characters should gain access to them at Ascention as part of their Ascention reward.

Peace.

Agreed. After ascending you should have access to every skill you've unlocked in one way or another, and not having to go to some far distant shithole to cap that one skill you need for the 10th time. To draw an example: why should a Nightfall character have to go to the last mission in prophecies, which is very far to go, to get one skill?

There's absolutely no point in having it the way it is. I saw in another thread that GW's purpose, from the beginning, was that you should be able to go on and play for 30 mins before dinner and enjoy it. Doesn't fit in on going to cap a 100 skills for no reason in my eyes.

Having to rebuy skills is a little cheap. Here's what I think would be best:

Remove the feature where unlocked skills are available at any skill trainer. Replace it so that unlocked skills are only available at the skill trainer you can normally get it at, however, if a skill is unlocked, it only costs the skill point, as opposed to a platinum. This would be a great change and definitely help the diversity of builds- and make skill points more valuable.

/signed

I encountered this the other night, where I was wanting to start a new PvE character to go through all three campaigns sequentially, and then remembered that though I'd unlocked a ton of skills across all professions, I was going to have to re-buy and re-capture all of those skills all over again, for like the 10th time, and just gave up on the whole new character idea.

Then I go create a PvP character, and am able to choose from any skill, profession and item that I've unlocked in almost two years of PvE and PvP play, and end up scratching my head and thinking, "so why the heck can't I do this with a new PvE character?"

I'd love to play through all three campaigns with one of the professions I've spent the least time on, but the thought of unlocking all of the secondaries again, and blowing all of the money I've saved to do so, doesn't sound fun.

Disagree entirely.

I actually feel that the skills should be either level dependent, or only available from the skill trainer who originally offered them.

I also think that heros should only be able to use skills that you have unlocked for that character, not the account, except for PvP.

I prefered the old way...everyone sold a different skill.

It was kinda fun actually having to trek different places to get skills.

The heros using unlocked skills, i always thought was a "giveaway" by Anet...its hard for me to really agree with disabling them access to unlocked skills since im so spoiled already Perhaps a different method for their skill unlocks.....

Say....level based, equivalent to what skills you have unlocked on that account and the available skills per level match what you are expected to get geographically if a player character was playing the game naturally.

I'd like to see a price reduction or rather flat-rate pricing on skills. I don't mind paying, but once you get to the point where you have to pay 1K per skill, it's pretty silly. It's not even logical to have prices ramping up like that.

100-200g for a Primary, 300-400g for a secondary (the logic being that secondary requires more training). Cap sigs could stay as they are, since you get enough to live with, before they reach 1K.

Can you explain your overall point of view instead of just stating it?

I, of all people, actually agree with the per skill trainer bit. I liked skills to be spread out the first time playing through. The issue came upon me that every time I started a new character, I had to do the exact same steps.. which the first time were fun, have now become such a bore. The re-playability dropped immensely on my second, third, etc characters.


Your point of view is understandable, but not for GW. Character development means nothing. Level means nearly nothing. Items acquired mean almost nothing. The lack of realism is replaced by the actual enjoyment of playing.

They want the casual player to be able to enjoy GW. Those that don't spend hours and hours playing every day. You are supposed to be on a competitive level based on your ability as a player as opposed to your character's abilities.

Note some of the original faqs. Being able to play 10 mins before dinner should actually accomplish something. Work before play is stupid in a game, it should be constant play.

You have good points of view, especially if you considered the previous ways to be enjoyable, but the previous ways are more like your traditional RPG where you work for rewards. GW is supposed to be revolutionary, and even though you guys mean well, you are destroying a lot of the bits and pieces that make GW stand out.

Most of the time, ONLY the signet of capture is worth the cost of 1k- or skills used to compliment the elite skill you will capture. There are so many average skills that just aren't worth the cost.

Before Nightfall, I wouldn't have agreed with this.
Because it would have created a huge imbalance between PVE newbies and veterans. You would have access in Ascalon to Elite skills or powerful skill combos, unlocked mainly through PvP or multiple profession of your principal character.

But Nightfall, anyways, already completely brought this imbalance to the game, not by bringing such Elite on your main characters, but on your three secondaries, I mean your heroes. How exactly a newbie with only Nightfall can compete with veterans'heroes full of hyper-synergised skills? How many newbies it turned away from playing, seeing they hadn't a proper skillbar to cope with Nightfall difficulty?

So, now that this imbalance is in PVE for any veteran with the Nightfall campaign, I would say: Why not?

I agree, completely. Where normally a veteran player should have more ability as a player, not only do they have more ability.. but they have many more options with their build. Options. That's all I want to give players that have played longer. Having a whole list of elites starting out vs not getting them until half-way through the game should only give more options, not more power. Should..

Once more, I can't help but agree. The issue is there though, and should be solved within itself. My suggestion to the issue described would to be to let you choose what skill to unlock from that chapter when you complete a quest, and not just be spoonfed what the npc has to offer alone. Bad or good suggestion, the issue remains regardless.

The idea of giving players access to their unlocked skills shouldn't be a 'well, this is broken so why not break it completely?'. It should be of benefit to all players, new and old. Wouldn't it be nice to try a Ele/War and think, hmm... perhaps I should have gone /Mes... so you try it instead and only redo the storyline/experience gain vs having to redo the same quests you've just finished for your starting skills?

The issue you describe, I also have problems with, but not agreeing with the topic just because another issue would be amplified is a bad view. The other issue should be fixed as well. I know that you are saying you agree with the topic because of the issue, but I am also against that view as well.

Once Unlocked, Always Unlocked. That's what I'd go by. Like Heroes.
At least allow the purchase of ALL unlocked skills at a trainer, including Elites. Just do it.

I do mostly PvE and this would be greatttt. Just an awesome idea. Hop to it, ANetors.
It'd lessen the grind too. 'Tleast for me.

Agreed. That's a good idea. Maybe only make elite skills and sigs of cap cost 1k, and all others cost 250g or something.

The concept of Unlocking Skills/Mods/Runes is ultimately designed for PvP, not for PvE and benefits PvP almost exclusively with 2 main exceptions.

One instance in Guild Wars where unlocked skills are accessible in PvE, and thats through heros only (a new addition). The other are skill trainers, being that they are able to sell you any unlocked skills for that campaign (also a change from the original design).

And this system itself is pretty broken, giving full advantaged to UAS'ed players and veterans a major boost. IMO, this is a "gimme". Anet coddling the players. These items are out of place in the PvE environment.

Your arguments are based on the guild wars mantra, player skill vs time spent.

However this does not mean that there is no time spent involved.

Guild Wars does not have any grind that is not required to progress your character to the end of the game. Even if you beat it already with one character. Each character is a seperate entity. Your character does not equal your account.

And that being the end result. Play through the game.

The minimum requires no grind. The game gives you the bare bones for your character. Heres lvl 20, heres your attributes, you gain basic skills, every character gets a free capture sig, armor is cheap, theres collectors for everything. Play through normally and things will progress properly and you'll have no problem.

Anything else that does not involve that IS a grind.

Example of grinds:
Collecting all skills
Collecting armor
Drunkard title
Rank
Cartographer title
etc. etc.

None of these are required to beat the game (Sunspear/Lightbringer is really quest based, so its not a real title, but rather a count of how many quests youve done)

And this includes farming, goofing around with builds, etc.

These are things that the casual player would not really care about. Tell me how many casual players would care the difference of one skill vs the other? How many casual players create custom builds based on the monsters they fight?

If a player begins to exhibit behavior of completism, heck, of even playing more than 3-4 times through this game, they are hardly qualifiied to be considered casual gamers.

I would have to disagree severely.

GW is about player progression for PvP.

GW is about character progression for PvE.

Heres what Anet's Andrew Patrick has to say.

His personal thoughts and really more relevant to PvP, but something to think about because thats what i think this boils down to. The ease that belongs to PvP, you want in PvE.

To enjoy playing the game, I want to use the skills that I've earned, regardless of which character I was on at the time. My goal when I play is to enjoy myself, and since the storyline is old after the first time you see/hear it, the skill system (which is, imo, the best thing about GW) is the only re-playable part of the game.

Having one skill early on in the game and having another towards the end of the game does not in any way make one better than the other. It just makes one harder to get to than the other. If I want to make a build centered around an elite only capturable at the end of the game, then I'll never be able to do so since I would have reached the end game prior to acquiring that skill.

I've played the game. I've beat the game. I've been PvPing for over a year now. I just recently bought chapter 2 and 3, thought I'd give the PvE a go. Nope, not gonna happen. The character, for realism sake, is separate as you describe and as thus forces me to not only reacquire the skills.. but go back to a whole different world to acquire them. Not just acquire them in one quick and dirty way since I've already unlocked them, but actually go through quest after quest that I've already went through or grind away gold/skill points.

Can you truly defend the realism side of the RPG, when there are polls like the quote you referred to by Andrew, that show blatant numbers of the community on that forum that agree with the issue, if not the whole suggestion?

Grind is a repetitive process that is required to continue through the game, true. You call the skill acquisition a non-grind because it's not required to beat the game, but neither are armor, items, elites, etc. There are a lot of things that aren't truly required, but can actually make or break the game for the player. This is one of those, from my perspective.

PS: You quoted Andrew Patrick from the same thread I created on a different forum. I know what he thinks, but all he thinks considering he's the one that suggested my bringing up the idea again in the first place.

Please, counter every argument of mine that you are able to, it will really help me in my understanding of the communities thought regarding this subject.

I would think what Mythics is getting to is that if you play say a E/Mes and you unlock all those Mesmer skills and maybe cap some elites.Then if you decide to roll out a mesmer why can't those skills be instantly unlocked for that Mesmer as you already spent the time unlocking them and this would help get RP Char ready for PvP faster than going all the way around and unlocking them or acquiring the gold and skill points.I would be for it and if you ever reroll a char.

Well, all I can say is that having to re-buy skills that I've already unlocked pretty much keeps me from creating new characters. I'd like to roll a PVE necro, but I've pretty much unlocked all necro skills from faction and other PVE characters. So scratch that idea, I sure dont want to waste gold buying skills I already have.

And changing to new secondaries on characters? Again, I hardly ever do it because I'd have to re-buy skills. So what happens in PVE? People usually stick to their tired old seconaries and builds. Maybe if PVE had more flexibility in making builds, then maybe just maybe people won't cling so hard to cookie cutter builds.

It's one reason that I prefer PVP over PVE in GW. Which is very strange because I was always a PVE first gamer. But the fun in GW for me is making builds and GW PVE is too restrictive in that aspect.

There are 2 sides to this debate:

-You shouldn't get to have fun just because you already earned it- you must earn it again because it always was that way, even if Guild Wars is advertised as a skill based RPG that doesn't require grind.

-You should get to fully enjoy the features that you already spent time unlocking if you wish, or should at least have an easier time getting them (for example, free but costs a skill point), so that you don't have to spend your time grinding.

You forget that unless you're trying to unlock ALL skills on one character, it costs next to nothing to buy skills. If you even had a rough idea of the builds you want to run, you can buy exactly what you need long before it gets to the point where it costs you 1k per skill.

And skill points? Maybe in prophecies you had to grind for skill points, but since factions and nightfall GIVE you skill points for quest and mission rewards I don't see how a "casual" gamer who's just playing through the game normally would ever be short of skill points that they'd have to grind for some. And with hero skill points as well, you'd have to be some sort of crazy "casual" gamer that you absolutely need more skill points. Playing through for fun? You may just gets the skills for completeness sake, but to the point that you need all those skills? Then you're not a casual gamer anymore.

Oh, and I don't understand how making all unlocked skills will put newbies and veterans on an equal footing. Vets have an unfair advantage cause their heroes have so many options compared to newbies? How's this going to be anything other than giving an even bigger advantage to the vets if they can use all unlocked skills on the own character as well? The newb will still have minimal skills, and the vet will be able to run some maxed out build. And many builds are for humans only, since the AI can't run a lot of situational or conditional skills.

And as for something about being competitive... That's pvp and it already works like that. But pve? Who are you being competitive against? Your heros, henchies? The monster mobs? Other players in how quickly you can farm an area? There is no competitive in pve. Unless of course you're talking about how long it takes you to do a farming run. Or running to places. But neither of those is needed to play pve for "casual" gamers at all is it?

Buying skills, and capture signets, is a large and important gold sink in the game, the only one besides ID kits and salvage kits that the average pve player must run into. It needs to remain in the game simply because it pulls so much wealth out of the game.

And it's thinking like this is why I say diversity in builds in PVE is so lacking. If you're just going to stick to a few skills then yes, skill cost is under 1k. But I highly doubt even the most cookie cuttered fanatic is under the 1k mark, especially if they've been playing since release.

If you think sticking to a few skills is a good thing, then I can't really argue with your opinion. But it's a fact that re-buying skills is a big deterrant in build experimenting in PVE.



Those two statements of yours in the same post totally contradict each other. On one breath you talk about unfairness to noobies because "vets" would have some "advantage." Then on the next breath you talk about there being no competitiveness in PVE. So which is it? Are "noobs" competing with the "vets" with a disadvantage or not?

They could have easily put in other gold sinks in the game.

Exactly. Gold sinks=Vanity items, like uber greens and uber 15k armor and FoW armor and stuff. Gold sinks=alcohol for titles, sugar for titles, etc. Gold sinks are all the fancy stuff that makes no real difference on the game. Gold sinks are not things that have an actual impact on gameplay.

gold sinks =/= vanity items. They just cause money to be transfered from one account to another.


Anyway, back on track. /notsigned
Skill trainers are an effective gold sink to prevent market inflation. And if this was introduced, A LOT more people would be ticked off at the destruction of the need for "achievements" then the people who would be happy with the ability to experiment.

Yes. Gold sinks = Vanity Items. Why? Because RICH players seek out vanity items. And they are the ones who need to get money taken away from them. Don't believe me? Multiply 15 times 5. That's how much Platinum 15k armor costs, +materials, runes, dye. Show me an item that ISN'T vanity that is more of a gold sink then that, please.

Please, look at the game. Ok, you see all those skills? Hundreds, right? Now think, how many possibilities could you actually have with a build? Hundreds? Thousands potentially? (albeit only a few dozen are truly close to viable thanks to the current balance issue, but nevermind that)

You're saying, as long as you have some idea. Well, thanks to the game's immense amount of skills in combination with the balance updates we see from time to time, I have no clue and I've been playing since release.

You know, I skipped factions completely. I bought it.. just never played it. Nightfall, however, sounded excellent. I started a character, but after about 4 hours... I couldn't stand it anymore. Why? Because I was playing a new class. A new class, with a secondary I'm VERY familiar with. I couldn't toy with build ideas. Experimentation is nearly banned from PvE entirely. The only way to experiment is via RA.

When you shout "N/Me LFG", you are actually saying "I'm a N/Me, and I'm good enough to be on your team." If I ask you to play a SS build for example, but you don't have it unlocked on that character.. that's competition.. and you just lost. Granted, it's not as much of an issue in PvE as it is in PvP, but it is still an issue.

WoW is built from the ground up to support the 'work for reward' theory.
GW is built from the ground up to not require a thousand hours prior to enjoyment.

I'm saying, they missed an aspect.
You're saying, the genre the game wasn't designed for has more people that would be upset than the genre the game was designed for.

We are not on the same page. The box does not describe GW. The manual does not describe GW. Faqs prior to release, interviews prior to release, even current interviews and gameplay describe GW.

To prove my point, where'd Refund Points go? Why did they add a trainer with every skill in the game? Why did they then add unlocked skills to your trainer lists? Why is the level cap so low? Why aren't there items that do 9999 dmg? Why is the entire game, PvE and PvP alike, based around the player's skill?

If you say we need money sinks, they can be found in other aspects or additions.
If you say we need more 'work for reward' related things, then we need more titles and arbitrary items to hunt down.

In Prophecies, where there are skill quests, it's pretty much true that if you play through the whole campaign and do the skill quests, you won't really need the skill trainers or if you do, you'll have a pretty good selection of skills before you reach the 1 platinum mark. So then if you want more, or if you want to be able to change your secondary a lot, or if you want a lot of elites - yes, you run into the gold sink in order to perfect your character. An argument supporting that system makes sense to me.

But in Factions and Nightfall, you get, what, ten skills for free? And then maybe another ten or fifteen before you hit the 1 platinum mark? If you are one of the many people, casual or not, who thinks that fiddling with your build is fun it is really, really burdensome to get a 'fun' number of skills in your primary profession in Factions and Nightfall, let alone your secondary profession, let alone buying skills you've already acquired elsewhere by other means. Hero skill points are nice, but they are few and far between.

I think it's much harder to defend a system whereby more and more skills are introduced with each chapter, and any new OR old character that wants to acquire them has to spend one platinum each in order to do so. I, for one, am pretty tired of spending all my gold buying skills for my dervish and my rit.