GWEN...new title GRIND!
lord dragon
Diablo, quick question, do you work for ANET? Just wondering is all.
Diablo???
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Originally Posted by cellardweller
"Finish Him" does 36 damage lasts 9 seconds for R3 and 68 damage and 17 seconds for R8... improvements of 89% for grinders over casual players.
"I am the strongest" does 65 damage at R3 and 126 damage at r8... Thats an improvement of 94% for grinders over casual players. |
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Originally Posted by cellardweller
Trying to attack my playing ability does not score any points.
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Originally Posted by cellardweller
If I'm at point A and I need to get to point B I'll kill everything in between, I'm not going to cruise around mindlessly slaughtering the natives.
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Originally Posted by cellardweller
You've already said that the minimum you've killed is 76, which means you are going out of your way to kill things for the sake of it - there are <10 jotan between sifhalla and the sepulchre of dragrimmar.
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Second of all, its 72, if you're trying to make it a number game, get the digits right. Oh it didn't matter? Then what's the point of arguing with numbers this whole time?
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Originally Posted by cellardweller
You're missing the point, there is only 4 days worth of quests to do which get you to rank 3, after that nothing gets killed unless you're grinding for points so you'll never get any higher than rank 3 unless you grind.
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Diablo???
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Originally Posted by lord dragon
Diablo, quick question, do you work for ANET? Just wondering is all.
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Guild Wars is far from a perfect game, it has it's flaws, it certainly should make the titles account-tied, not because of grind, but there's no surprise in becoming a sunspear commander after the third time. And I've been waiting for an eternity for my god damn hair stylists.... hope that answers the question.
cellardweller
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Originally Posted by Diablo™
I use "Finish Him" all the time, skills improve with higher ranks of course, but that doesnt mean the 94% less-effective skill is useless. Its still better than some of the standard skills.
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Originally Posted by Diablo™
No one is attacking your playing ability, unless you're admiting to having difficulties killing 5 monsters...
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Originally Posted by Diablo™
First of all, I haven't even been to Sepulchre of Dragrimmar, but there are like 40 Bisons and Pinesouls between Sifhalla and the Bear Spirit in Jaga Moraine, and that's skipping nearly 2/3 of the whole explorable area. But then again it's all numbers here isn't it? Who knows what shortcuts you took, I cruise around and kill when something blocks my way, after a while voila! some dude at a shrine tells me I have 80 Kills.
Second of all, its 72, if you're trying to make it a number game, get the digits right. Oh it didn't matter? Then what's the point of arguing with numbers this whole time? |
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Originally Posted by Diablo™
On the contrary, I think the whole number debate we had earlier is what's missing the point... the point is that there is MORE than 4 days worth of quests. If you're finishing the quests in 4 days, you're probably doing it too fast, which is why it feels like a crunch. Who is to say they won't add more quests?
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Getting skills and armour without having to grind is what people want. If they added enough quests to max the title then I would be satisfied because I don't find questing a grind, but I'm sure others would still not be happy. The ideal solution is not going to be found until anet go back to the philosophy of rewarding skill instead of time.
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Originally Posted by Diablo™
And if there's nothing else to do, why are you trying to get that norn armor?
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Diablo???
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Originally Posted by cellardweller
And its still 94% less effective than a grinders skill. If anet had stuck to the ideals of skill > grind they set out in prophesies, there would be 0 difference between what a casual player could get and what someone who is willing to grind for hours would get.
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Originally Posted by cellardweller
I can't see how "Too tough? Well then it sounds more like a capability issue. Any poor player can say killing 5 monsters is a "grind"." could be interpreted as anything else, but if you say you're intentions were noble then I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.
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Originally Posted by cellardweller
If killing 5 monsters were all it took then it wouldn't be a problem but killing thousands of monsters for the sake of it certainly is.
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Originally Posted by cellardweller
It was you that argued the claim of slayer of nightmares after finishing the game, stating that I'd been run through the game. I gave you the facts to back it up.
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Originally Posted by cellardweller
Killing things slower is not going to give you anymore points. The only thing that will get you more points is going out of your way and killing things that you would not ordinarily have killed just for the title.
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Originally Posted by cellardweller
Getting skills and armour without having to grind is what people want. If they added enough quests to max the title then I would be satisfied because I don't find questing a grind, but I'm sure others would still not be happy. The ideal solution is not going to be found until anet go back to the philosophy of rewarding skill instead of time.
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All PvE RPG games build on the fundamentals of killing monsters, leveling up, acquiring upgrades. It's when you're trying to rush it, "playing" suddenly becomes "grinding".
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Originally Posted by cellardweller
I personally care more about the skills than the armour (though I wouldn't mind some of the asura headgear and dwarven headgear), I used the norn reputation because I had finished all their quests. As for why - there are 3 other campaigns that need completing.
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cellardweller
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Originally Posted by Diablo™
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Its not about rushing GW:EN, its about never being able to reach the goal except by farming monsters for faction. You seem to think that GW was always grind based, when it wasn't. Guildwars was different from most other RPG's out there, in that it [i]wasn't[i] about levels and character power. As soon as you finished the training areas of the game, you were already had reached max level, had perfect equipment and vast array of skills that operated at full efficiency. By contrast you are very, very, very far from having your skills operating at full efficency by playing GW:EN all the way through.
As far as the Skill over Time concept, right up to the point that they introduced Light bringer, this concept was 100% true for PVE. My fissure clad, fellblade wielding warrior was exactly as powerful as Johnny Droknar, the only difference in performance was a direct result of what was between the keyboard and the chair. This is the concept which made GW special - you could grind for hours to get pretty stuff like some farmers or play smart to get pretty items like Herb did (just an example) or you could do neither and still be on a level playing field.
The departure from the ideal that they took by introducing lightbringer effects has been exponentially increased in GW:EN - that is why there is so much disquiet about this issue on the forums. Players like me are seeing the game they love ripped away from them and being replaced by another MMO grind clone.
cryptology
Honestly, the difference between this "full efficiency" and my lousy 10k Norn points seems so minimal that it never crossed my mind that I'm being jipped.
I see the whole idea that ANet is departing from the original ideal, but at the same time it seems like a lot of people are just nitpicking at the little things they disagree with.
At the higher echelon of gaming commitment, I think you should have to work to get the most out of your character. And I think those who work should have that tiny little advantage over the people who don't. But again, I don't see what the big fuss is about being able to kill an enemy a second or two faster than the next guy. (sorry if my estimation isn't 100% accurate)
But there's always the idea of having easily attainable bragging rights. The idea that you're on the same title as some other guy decked out in the cheapest max-armor set he can get must be just demoralizing. And even then, having to work so hard to get to the next title for that *tiny* little advantage must be so discouraging.
No matter how much of the other side of the argument I read, I still can't see the fuss. I guess I'll stick to blaming it on nitpicking.
I see the whole idea that ANet is departing from the original ideal, but at the same time it seems like a lot of people are just nitpicking at the little things they disagree with.
At the higher echelon of gaming commitment, I think you should have to work to get the most out of your character. And I think those who work should have that tiny little advantage over the people who don't. But again, I don't see what the big fuss is about being able to kill an enemy a second or two faster than the next guy. (sorry if my estimation isn't 100% accurate)
But there's always the idea of having easily attainable bragging rights. The idea that you're on the same title as some other guy decked out in the cheapest max-armor set he can get must be just demoralizing. And even then, having to work so hard to get to the next title for that *tiny* little advantage must be so discouraging.
No matter how much of the other side of the argument I read, I still can't see the fuss. I guess I'll stick to blaming it on nitpicking.
Diablo???
Guild Wars was never entirely "grindless" per se, levels are capped at 20 to make it less, but not entirely without some effort to get there. As quick and easy as it seems, getting to level 20 took more time than how long EotN has been out.
The question here is the necessity of these PvE skills, in EotN it's almost entirely optional, as opposed to Lightbringer Gaze, which was almost mandatory in later parts.
Try equipping more than 3 PvE skills, the game will restrict it, because they know were not suppose to depend on them. We can't forget these are bonuses, not meant to overshadow the core skills that we've left the training camp with. They are our primary weapons, and Johnny Droknar can kill just as well without a top teir PvE skill.
Due to the high usage of Lightbringer skills, it has left the impression that players are entirely inadequate without PvE skills. This just isn't true. The title track is not mandatory like Sunspear/LB points were sometimes. These PvE skills, compared with our primary core skills, are no different than an Obsidian armor compared with charr hide armor. Except you can't really see it.
The question here is the necessity of these PvE skills, in EotN it's almost entirely optional, as opposed to Lightbringer Gaze, which was almost mandatory in later parts.
Try equipping more than 3 PvE skills, the game will restrict it, because they know were not suppose to depend on them. We can't forget these are bonuses, not meant to overshadow the core skills that we've left the training camp with. They are our primary weapons, and Johnny Droknar can kill just as well without a top teir PvE skill.
Due to the high usage of Lightbringer skills, it has left the impression that players are entirely inadequate without PvE skills. This just isn't true. The title track is not mandatory like Sunspear/LB points were sometimes. These PvE skills, compared with our primary core skills, are no different than an Obsidian armor compared with charr hide armor. Except you can't really see it.
Series
After a little more playing, I have decided that rank 5 is reasonable. Clearing areas is pretty fun and doesn't feel too grindy, and although being lower would be good, it isn't too necessary...
I do kind of think that the skills should be capped at r6 or so, or even better ALWAYS be at max efficiency regardless of level, then anything above that is just for show. Getting uber overpowered skills for grinding is something Anet should NOT allow, as they always say skill>time spent... well in this scenario, time spent will overcome skill. That is not good.
So yeah... while armor with a requirement is okay with me, I have to say that giving better skills to grinders just isn't right, and certainly doesn't go with what Anet promised since the beginning.
So yeah, IMO, 6 should be maximum effectiveness, as 10 is just ridiculous.
I do kind of think that the skills should be capped at r6 or so, or even better ALWAYS be at max efficiency regardless of level, then anything above that is just for show. Getting uber overpowered skills for grinding is something Anet should NOT allow, as they always say skill>time spent... well in this scenario, time spent will overcome skill. That is not good.
So yeah... while armor with a requirement is okay with me, I have to say that giving better skills to grinders just isn't right, and certainly doesn't go with what Anet promised since the beginning.
So yeah, IMO, 6 should be maximum effectiveness, as 10 is just ridiculous.
Series
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Originally Posted by Diablo™
Guild Wars was never entirely "grindless" per se, levels are capped at 20 to make it less, but not entirely without some effort to get there. As quick and easy as it seems, getting to level 20 took more time than how long EotN has been out.
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Diablo???
I just think Anet didn't realize people are crazy enough to reach rank 8 in such short amount of time. At the sacrifice of steady fun, they opt to achieve higher ranks for skills that are really just bonuses.
Diablo???
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Originally Posted by Series
While what a lot of you say makes sense, I have to disagree with this... getting to level 20 isn't grind as you can easily do it while playing the story. Getting level 5+ in the ranks is almost impossible by just doing the story and dungeons.
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Series
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Originally Posted by Diablo™
The "grind" in this case (as i quoted) was used to mean "working for something". As anything in life, we have to work to get it, nothing is given for free. We have to work to get what we want, we therefore "grind" to get it... that was the usage.
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Safer Saviour
Right, I want FoW armour. Okay, really I just want the necromancer tunic, the destroyer arms and cabal lower. I also wouldn't mine the destroyer wand or staff to go with said arms but they'll come later. Anyways, the tunic is going to set me back over 300k and I have half that, so one would presume I'd grind... well, I don't consider it grind. It'll explain:
I completed GWEN before most in my alliance, I blitzed it. Then I went back and did all the Asura quests, because they were fun. Polymock's really enjoyable and getting skills as quest rewards always pleased me. I cleared the areas whilst I was at it because it didn't take me very long. Guess what? r5 Asura. I'd already got to r5 Norn in the preview (I cleared V. Falls twice and did everything but the Bison) so I decide to do some dungeons.
Mega fun. Even more fun than I found 'em in the preview. Guess how I'm gonna make the money for FoW?
And unlike DoA/Urgoz/The Deep/Sorrow's Furnace (formerly anyway)... there isn't just one area, there are 18 - and imagine hard mode. It's going to take me a while to get sick of doing dungeons, much longer than it took me to get sick of DoA and I don't consider this pointless grind because I'm having fun - and just gaining titles/money on the side.
I completed GWEN before most in my alliance, I blitzed it. Then I went back and did all the Asura quests, because they were fun. Polymock's really enjoyable and getting skills as quest rewards always pleased me. I cleared the areas whilst I was at it because it didn't take me very long. Guess what? r5 Asura. I'd already got to r5 Norn in the preview (I cleared V. Falls twice and did everything but the Bison) so I decide to do some dungeons.
Mega fun. Even more fun than I found 'em in the preview. Guess how I'm gonna make the money for FoW?
And unlike DoA/Urgoz/The Deep/Sorrow's Furnace (formerly anyway)... there isn't just one area, there are 18 - and imagine hard mode. It's going to take me a while to get sick of doing dungeons, much longer than it took me to get sick of DoA and I don't consider this pointless grind because I'm having fun - and just gaining titles/money on the side.
cryptology
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Originally Posted by Safer Saviour
I don't consider this pointless grind because I'm having fun - and just gaining titles/money on the side.
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cellardweller
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Originally Posted by Diablo™
Guild Wars was never entirely "grindless" per se, levels are capped at 20 to make it less, but not entirely without some effort to get there. As quick and easy as it seems, getting to level 20 took more time than how long EotN has been out.
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Originally Posted by Diablo™
The question here is the necessity of these PvE skills, in EotN it's almost entirely optional, as opposed to Lightbringer Gaze, which was almost mandatory in later parts.
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Originally Posted by Diablo™
Try equipping more than 3 PvE skills, the game will restrict it, because they know were not suppose to depend on them. We can't forget these are bonuses, not meant to overshadow the core skills that we've left the training camp with. They are our primary weapons, and Johnny Droknar can kill just as well without a top teir PvE skill.
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Originally Posted by Diablo™
Due to the high usage of Lightbringer skills, it has left the impression that players are entirely inadequate without PvE skills. This just isn't true. The title track is not mandatory like Sunspear/LB points were sometimes. These PvE skills, compared with our primary core skills, are no different than an Obsidian armor compared with charr hide armor. Except you can't really see it.
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Warriors fissure armour = AR80 + 20 vs physical
Sever Artery 4A - If this attack hits, the opponent begins Bleeding for 5...21 seconds
Ear Bite 4A 3/4 - Target touched foe begins bleeding for 10...25 seconds
Do I need to explain how your comparison falls down or are the descriptions enough?
Series
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Originally Posted by Safer Saviour
Right, I want FoW armour. Okay, really I just want the necromancer tunic, the destroyer arms and cabal lower. I also wouldn't mine the destroyer wand or staff to go with said arms but they'll come later. Anyways, the tunic is going to set me back over 300k and I have half that, so one would presume I'd grind... well, I don't consider it grind. It'll explain:
I completed GWEN before most in my alliance, I blitzed it. Then I went back and did all the Asura quests, because they were fun. Polymock's really enjoyable and getting skills as quest rewards always pleased me. I cleared the areas whilst I was at it because it didn't take me very long. Guess what? r5 Asura. I'd already got to r5 Norn in the preview (I cleared V. Falls twice and did everything but the Bison) so I decide to do some dungeons. Mega fun. Even more fun than I found 'em in the preview. Guess how I'm gonna make the money for FoW? And unlike DoA/Urgoz/The Deep/Sorrow's Furnace (formerly anyway)... there isn't just one area, there are 18 - and imagine hard mode. It's going to take me a while to get sick of doing dungeons, much longer than it took me to get sick of DoA and I don't consider this pointless grind because I'm having fun - and just gaining titles/money on the side. |
Diablo???
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Originally Posted by cellardweller
I though I already pointed out that as soon as you've finished the training areas and ready to start playing, you're already L20.
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Originally Posted by cellardweller
All the claims of optional in the world won't change the fact that a grinder has better skills than a casual player.
And Jane Grind will be able to kill faster, finish elite missions faster, have an easier time vanquishing or guardianing than either Johnny or I. |
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Originally Posted by cellardweller
Warriors Droks armour = AR80 + 20 vs physical
Warriors fissure armour = AR80 + 20 vs physical Sever Artery 4A - If this attack hits, the opponent begins Bleeding for 5...21 seconds Ear Bite 4A 3/4 - Target touched foe begins bleeding for 10...25 seconds Do I need to explain how your comparison falls down or are the descriptions enough? |
Need max level armor? = Yes
Need Obisidan max level armor? = No
Need Sever Artery? = Yes (well depends on your build)
Need Ear Bite? = No
Why is there a max level armor in every game? Because we need it.
Why do we need to get to level 20 in every game? Because we need it.
Why is there max weapons in every game? Because we need it.
Why ISN'T "Finish Him" in every game? Because we DON'T need it.
cellardweller
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Originally Posted by Diablo™
And your time during the training area? They don't count? We put our time in, it's our effort, it can be seen as a grind. If you had fun, great, if you didn't? well it's the one grind that is necessary.
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Originally Posted by Diablo™
I wasn't comparing the stats, I was comparing the need for it.
Need max level armor? = Yes Need Obisidan max level armor? = No Need Sever Artery? = Yes (well depends on your build) Need Ear Bite? = No Why is there a max level armor in every game? Because we need it. Why do we need to get to level 20 in every game? Because we need it. Why is there max weapons in every game? Because we need it. Why ISN'T "Finish Him" in every game? Because we DON'T need it. |
Diablo???
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Originally Posted by cellardweller
If you don't like the training areas you can bypass them completely, many players do.
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Originally Posted by cellardweller
It is not about needing it, you can can complete the game with an empty skillbar if you want. The undeniable fact is that someone who has a maxed grind title has a character which is incontrovertibly more powerful than someone without the title - that is the problem and a complete corruption of the original gw ideal
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These PvE skills are bonuses, and benefit players almost immediately, even at rank 2. Anything beyond that is no different than the desire to reach a "titular level 20". But we can't forget, they're only bonuses, extra features to reward players who purchase EotN, not just those who grind for Norn reps.
Fist of Thor
I brought GWEN for its storyline, which I think is awsome. I dont give a a flying f*ck about new armors. I dont see the matter of crying about grind.
For start, your whole real life is grind. Millions of people do the same work every day, from time to time, to get money.
Its not a faliure of goverment, culture, or the system of an MMO/CORPG. Its the faliure of basic human behavior.
No one force you to grind in GW. They dont kick you out if you dont do, unlike in RL work. I never farmed/grinded in GW ever and I've been here for 2 years. Yet I have 15k armor and a few titles which I'm proud of.
You can still go exploring, doing quests, roleplaying in some amazingly beautiful areas. All your armors and weapons are maxed already, its not necessary to get the new ones just because they are "new".
Unless somene is a retarded 8yr old geek whos only life purpose is to have more rank/armor/weapon to enlarge his e-penis.
Its surely a miserable purpose to play GW, or any other game....
For start, your whole real life is grind. Millions of people do the same work every day, from time to time, to get money.
Its not a faliure of goverment, culture, or the system of an MMO/CORPG. Its the faliure of basic human behavior.
No one force you to grind in GW. They dont kick you out if you dont do, unlike in RL work. I never farmed/grinded in GW ever and I've been here for 2 years. Yet I have 15k armor and a few titles which I'm proud of.
You can still go exploring, doing quests, roleplaying in some amazingly beautiful areas. All your armors and weapons are maxed already, its not necessary to get the new ones just because they are "new".
Unless somene is a retarded 8yr old geek whos only life purpose is to have more rank/armor/weapon to enlarge his e-penis.
Its surely a miserable purpose to play GW, or any other game....
cellardweller
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Originally Posted by Diablo™
Quite the opposite, I liked it. Just as I enjoyed getting higher ranks, even though they were optional.
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Originally Posted by Diablo™
Because they can finish missions a couple minutes faster than you?
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Originally Posted by Diablo™
What about players who haven't even purchased EotN to begin with? What devastating disadvantage are they at? How can they ever beat another mission?!?
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Originally Posted by Diablo™
These PvE skills are bonuses, and benefit players almost immediately, even at rank 2. Anything beyond that is no different than the desire to reach a "titular level 20". But we can't forget, they're only bonuses, extra features to reward players who purchase EotN, not just those who grind for Norn reps.
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Diablo???
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Originally Posted by cellardweller
If the farming for max rank is so optional, can you tell me how I get I get the full skill effictiveness without it.
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Originally Posted by cellardweller
Its very clear that you think its perfectly fine for one person to have a more powerful character than someone else and you and I are not going to see eye to eye as long as this is the case... so let me ask you this, if you'd invested yourself (and when you're talking about 1000's of hours, it is a personal investment) into Guildwars specifically because it was the only MMORPG where all characters were equal, wouldn't you be rightfully upset when design changes are made that compromise that?
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This may seem like WoW, build WoW builds a dependency on it, Guild Wars does not. Beyond level 20, the benefits are very minor, but there ARE clear difference between those who spent the time, and those who did not. This, I believe, is a good thing.
cellardweller
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Originally Posted by Diablo™
The option of getting it to begin with...
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Originally Posted by Diablo™
I think its good that you point this out, it's our key difference here. I don't believe in equal benefits, it would be very communist-like. I believe in equal opportunity, rewards and luxury for those who spent the effort.
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Originally Posted by Diablo™
This may seem like WoW, build WoW builds a dependency on it, Guild Wars does not. Beyond level 20, the benefits are very minor, but there ARE clear difference between those who spent the time, and those who did not. This, I believe, is a good thing.
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Kas
Play a Korean MMORPG. See what grind really is like. Then come back and try complaining about the "grind" in Guildwars. Or even better... go play Vanguard.
Diablo???
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Originally Posted by cellardweller
But thats no option at all, to be on equal footing with other players you have to, and you're not given any other way to obtain them except to grind.
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Originally Posted by cellardweller
I don't have a problem with luxuries for effort. Things like fissure armour and tormented weapons are fine because you can obtain them by grinding for hours or being smart for 5 minutes and they provide no in game advantage. The grind titles do nothing except reward time spent and a willingness chase carrots on sticks.
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Originally Posted by cellardweller
Do you also think its a good thing to introduce these equallities after selling the game for 2 years on the exact premise that there will be no advantage given to players who spend time grinding?
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These "advantages" you're talking about, they're the difference between a r5 and r7 skills... you're complaining that someone who spent time to raise their ranks to improve their skills are over advantageous, while there are plenty of other players satisfied with ranks lower than yours. While there are even players who haven't purchase EotN, completely unaware of the advantage you already have over them.... however minor they maybe. They're certainly not worried about it.
If you're rank 7, the only thing i would like is to get into a Pug with you, other than that, I should know that in time... anyone can reach rank 7. Just don't think that you have to have it right this very instant.
Diablo???
Cellar, you're clutching onto the idea that these new PvE skills are like those Lightbringer skills... that they're somehow more mandatory than a luxury. They're not. And no, we can't really beat a game with an
We all need some core skills to play the game.
These PvE skills are the icing on a cake, but they're not the bread, they're fun to use but not what's needed to beat a game. We don't need any more rank than it's necessary to drop the last enemy's health to zero. Because in the end, that's all it matters, everything else is a luxury. And if you want luxury, you gotta work for it.
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Originally Posted by cellardweller
empty skillbar
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These PvE skills are the icing on a cake, but they're not the bread, they're fun to use but not what's needed to beat a game. We don't need any more rank than it's necessary to drop the last enemy's health to zero. Because in the end, that's all it matters, everything else is a luxury. And if you want luxury, you gotta work for it.
Lourens
The reason i bought gwen where the dunguens
cellardweller
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Originally Posted by Diablo™
Cellar, you're clutching onto the idea that these new PvE skills are like those Lightbringer skills...
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Originally Posted by Diablo™
that they're somehow more mandatory than a luxury. They're not. And no, we can't really beat a game with an (ed: empty skillbar)
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Originally Posted by Diablo™
These PvE skills are the icing on a cake, but they're not the bread, they're fun to use but not what's needed to beat a game. We don't need any more rank than it's necessary to drop the last enemy's health to zero. Because in the end, that's all it matters, everything else is a luxury. And if you want luxury, you gotta work for it.
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Diablo???
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Originally Posted by cellardweller
If you can't see how they're plainly superior to ordinary skills I'm not sure how I can illustrate it further.
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You already have a basket of goodies, you want more goodies? work for it.
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Originally Posted by cellardweller
this is not me, but it is a screen cap posted previously on these boards.
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Originally Posted by cellardweller
I imagine you'd make a great factory hand. The rest of us who believe in rewarding skill and inguninity rather than time spent will continue to let anet know that they're taking the game in the wrong direction.
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4 million members, sequel enroute, dozens of awards and international fanbase... Anet seems to be doing just fine in this "wrong direction".
Cebe
So, people like to complain that they don't want to have to "grind" to gain better PvE only skills? I'd just like to point out, and I'm pretty sure, that if ANet made it so you could gain the max title for any race by completing quests...that would also be considered Grinding. Then again, if everyone automatically got the max title for just completing the game that would be "too easy". To me, grinding for a title is something that is done over months. Gaining the high or max tiers of the reputation titles can probably be done in a matter of weeks, and that's with having a break to play with other characters.
Personally I've not used any of the PvE-Only skills yet. There are some I like, but most seem to be geared around physical damage dealers, none of whom I've really played about with in GW:EotN thus far.
...and if the Henchmen had no skills either? I'm thinking Monk Henchmen in particular. That screenshot isn't showing you can beat the game with no skills...it's showing that you can beat the game with "7" hench and a leecher on normal mode...
Personally I've not used any of the PvE-Only skills yet. There are some I like, but most seem to be geared around physical damage dealers, none of whom I've really played about with in GW:EotN thus far.
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Originally Posted by cellardweller
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Diablo???
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Originally Posted by Celestial Beaver
Personally I've not used any of the PvE-Only builds yet....
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cellardweller
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Originally Posted by Diablo™
Link broken. But since it says ThunderheadDone, i'm assuming its Thunderhead... in which case, that's a level. Show me one for the end of every campaign...
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Originally Posted by Diablo™
Their superiority benefits all who purchase EotN, and is still not mandatory. It's not like a r2 PvE skill is useless, again, back to the comparing ranks. Thinking this is somekind of competition, a race to the finish. This isn't PvP.
You already have a basket of goodies, you want more goodies? work for it. Because newbs don't deserve a chance to play with you big boys right? The good will always be good, and the bad will just suck for life. Why practice? Time spent will never be able to beat "inguninity". |
http://www.arenanet.com/press/pr-030422.php
"Our vision has been to create a game that rewards skill and inventiveness rather than hundreds of hours of play, so we've built Guild Wars from the ground up to be a balanced environment where players of all skill levels can compete for recognition and prizes."
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Originally Posted by Diablo™
4 million members, sequel enroute, dozens of awards and international fanbase... Anet seems to be doing just fine in this "wrong direction".
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Originally Posted by Celestial Beaver
...and if the Henchmen had no skills either? I'm thinking Monk Henchmen in particular. That screenshot isn't showing you can beat the game with no skills...it's showing that you can beat the game with "7" hench and a leecher on normal mode...
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Perfected Shadow
At least make ALL pve titles account based, just like pvp titles are.
Diablo???
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Originally Posted by cellardweller
Thats just digging your heels in when your shown to be wrong. People were doing thk with no skills on the original ai. The link works fine, check your browser.
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If you want me to, allow me to rephrase then. "Not everyone can beat the game with an empty skillbar."
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Originally Posted by cellardweller
I'm going to let Geoff Strain answer that one, because this is the exact phrase that I bought guild wars for.
http://www.arenanet.com/press/pr-030422.php "Our vision has been to create a game that rewards skill and inventiveness rather than hundreds of hours of play, so we've built Guild Wars from the ground up to be a balanced environment where players of all skill levels can compete for recognition and prizes." They sold those 4million utits and received those awards on the paradym that they're leaving behind. |
But I can tell that what they've tried, with moderate success. New players, veteran players can pug together nicely... but of course there's that damn Obsidian armor right? So right from Prophecies, there's already a contradiction with the idea of a game entirely void of grind-prizes. Because they know, it's just not possible to have a lasting PvE game that completely eliminates the reward for time spent.
Since I can't tell what the hell is a "Paradym", I'm not sure what they're leaving behind. All I know is, they seem to be attracting more and more players so far... and I still love it just as much as the first day it was released.
If you want to leave on the account that some unnecessary ranks are too hard to get, so be it. You know where the door is.
Diablo???
A fully grind-free PvE RPG game would be one where the player starts and ends with every armor, every skill, every weapon he'll ever need. And the only thing to do is to get from point A to point B... stomp a few monsters in between, and find a new game to play.
cellardweller
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Originally Posted by Diablo™
Shown wrong? How does someone beating the Thunderhead with no zero skills, demonstrate that these PvE skills are mandatory? Nice accomplishment for them, but do you expect everyone to be able to do this?
If you want me to, allow me to rephrase then. "Not everyone can beat the game with an empty skillbar." |
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Originally Posted by Diablo™
Seems like your beef is with Geoff Strain... that's not what I was sold on, and I'm not going to pretend I'm going to defend what Geoff said, you'll have to ask him personally.
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Originally Posted by Diablo™
But I can tell that what they've tried, with moderate success. New players, veteran players can pug together nicely... but of course there's that damn Obsidian armor right? So right from Prophecies, there's already a contradiction with the idea of a game entirely void of grind-prizes. Because they know, it's just not possible to have a lasting PvE game that completely eliminates the reward for time spent.
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Originally Posted by Diablo™
Since I can't tell what the hell is a "Paradym", I'm not sure what they're leaving behind. All I know is, they seem to be attracting more and more players so far... and I still love it just as much as the first day it was released.
If you want to leave on the account that some unnecessary ranks are too hard to get, so be it. You know where the door is. |
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Originally Posted by Diablo™
A fully grind-free PvE RPG game would be one where the player starts and ends with every armor, every skill, every weapon he'll ever need. And the only thing to do is to get from point A to point B... stomp a few monsters in between, and find a new game to play.
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Cebe
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Originally Posted by Diablo™
Actually they put a restriction of no more than 3 PvE-Only skills used at one time. A skill bar composed of PvE-only skills is not possible, they don't want these bonus skills to overshadow the ones that really matter.
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As I have suspected for a while, my hands try to type faster than my brain can constuct sentences
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Originally Posted by cellardweller
You appear to confuse grind with gameplay. When you're doing something fun - its play (eg playing missions with friends). When you're doing something thats not fun - its grind (like clearing out Varajar Fells 20 times over with HH just to be able to use the pve skills properly).
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Diablo???
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Originally Posted by cellardweller
You're trying to use the fact that you can beat the game without pve skills as some indication that it makes them optional, I used ordinary skills as a counter example to illustrate how that line of reasoning is inherently flawed. I could equally have used starter wands or ascalon armour. Being able to complete the game with or without something does make it required or not - in game advantages do.
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Originally Posted by cellardweller
I don't have a "beef" with Geoff, that statement described GW up to 12 months ago exactly. The path GW started down since with these grind based skills are a recent addition and they're not a change for the better.
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Originally Posted by cellardweller
As I said earlier, you can get your obsidian by spending months of grinding or a few minutes of being observant. I got my first set by buying gargoyle skulls during the first wintersday for 50gc and selling candycanes at 600-1000g in march, for a total time investment of somewhere around 1 hr. My second set was even less work, and I'm sure most of the real traders in the game would laugh at how slowly I made money. If they gave you the choice of c-spacing for a number of weeks or playing difficult missions for a few hours I wouldn't have a complaint, but the fact is there is no way to get faction except by mindless grind.
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Originally Posted by cellardweller
I'm not going anywhere, GW is still better than the second best game, but its definitely worse than the game I was playing 12 months ago, which is exactly why I'm taking the time to post on these forums - if I were leaving there would be no point.
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Otherwise, maybe it's just that it's only been 5 days and we haven't even seen all the options in acquiring more reputation points? Because my whole point since the beginning, is that there is no need to rush to rank 8 in such short time, even if it's to improve these all-important PvE skills you're so concerned about. If you already finished all the missions and quests, maybe someone just needs to relax and slow down. If you had taken your time, I'm sure the estimated end results of all that questing, dungeon looting, and mission accomplishing would've net you more than enough reputations to use those PvE skills efficiently.
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Originally Posted by cellardweller
You appear to confuse grind with gameplay. When you're doing something fun - its play (eg playing missions with friends). When you're doing something thats not fun - its grind (like clearing out Varajar Fells 20 times over with HH just to be able to use the pve skills properly).
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So I guess what's "fun" is really just a matter of opinion isn't it?
cellardweller
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Originally Posted by Diablo™
Beating the game using core skills happen all the time, beating the game (or Thunderhead) using nothing... so far I only have your screenshot as proof, quite out of the ordinary, you can't reasonably expect that to be considered standard tactics. Before Nightfall, people have been playing games without PvE skills all the time.
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Originally Posted by Diablo™
Do let Geoff know then. Maybe he can share some insights. Personally I don't know what's Geoff's grand scheme is, but I bought the game for an entirely different reason.
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Originally Posted by Diablo™
Spamming WTS/WTB in local chat for an hour can be seen as more tiring as killing monsters. Frankly that's more than enough time to pull in a few more reputation points
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There was no trade chat spamming involved. When you pass through a city see someone saying WTB X and you have X you open trade. Simple and absolutely grind or spamming required. My second set came from buying monstrous items direct from the material trader and selling them back at 5x the price - no trading involved at all that time.
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Originally Posted by Diablo™
I'm glad you're staying. Again, if you're really concerned about these rank 8 folks beating the game 5 minutes faster than you, and think that this is going to destroy everything as we know... Geoff Strain should definitely hear from you.
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Originally Posted by Diablo™
Otherwise, maybe it's just that it's only been 5 days and we haven't even seen all the options in acquiring more reputation points? Because my whole point since the beginning, is that there is no need to rush to rank 8 in such short time, even if it's to improve these all-important PvE skills you're so concerned about.
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Originally Posted by Diablo™
If you already finished all the missions and quests, maybe someone just needs to relax and slow down. If you had taken your time, I'm sure the estimated end results of all that questing, dungeon looting, and mission accomplishing would've net you more than enough reputations to use those PvE skills efficiently.
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Originally Posted by Diablo™
I find buying and selling things in trade channel horrendously boring, but that's just me.
So I guess what's "fun" is really just a matter of opinion isn't it? |