GWEN...new title GRIND!

Diablo, quick question, do you work for ANET? Just wondering is all.

I use "Finish Him" all the time, skills improve with higher ranks of course, but that doesnt mean the 94% less-effective skill is useless. Its still better than some of the standard skills.

No one is attacking your playing ability, unless you're admiting to having difficulties killing 5 monsters...

That's good because I didn't.

First of all, I haven't even been to Sepulchre of Dragrimmar, but there are like 40 Bisons and Pinesouls between Sifhalla and the Bear Spirit in Jaga Moraine, and that's skipping nearly 2/3 of the whole explorable area. But then again it's all numbers here isn't it? Who knows what shortcuts you took, I cruise around and kill when something blocks my way, after a while voila! some dude at a shrine tells me I have 80 Kills.

Second of all, its 72, if you're trying to make it a number game, get the digits right. Oh it didn't matter? Then what's the point of arguing with numbers this whole time?

On the contrary, I think the whole number debate we had earlier is what's missing the point... the point is that there is MORE than 4 days worth of quests. If you're finishing the quests in 4 days, you're probably doing it too fast, which is why it feels like a crunch. Who is to say they won't add more quests? And if there's nothing else to do, why are you trying to get that norn armor?

No, I work for a game company, but not Arenanet. I hope my zealousness in defending the fact that people are just rushing too fast in the game isn't making me seem like I'm trying to send the message and the game is perfect, because it isn't.

Guild Wars is far from a perfect game, it has it's flaws, it certainly should make the titles account-tied, not because of grind, but there's no surprise in becoming a sunspear commander after the third time. And I've been waiting for an eternity for my god damn hair stylists.... hope that answers the question.

And its still 94% less effective than a grinders skill. If anet had stuck to the ideals of skill > grind they set out in prophesies, there would be 0 difference between what a casual player could get and what someone who is willing to grind for hours would get.


I can't see how "Too tough? Well then it sounds more like a capability issue. Any poor player can say killing 5 monsters is a "grind"." could be interpreted as anything else, but if you say you're intentions were noble then I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. If killing 5 monsters were all it took then it wouldn't be a problem but killing thousands of monsters for the sake of it certainly is.

It was you that argued the claim of slayer of nightmares after finishing the game, stating that I'd been run through the game. I gave you the facts to back it up.

Killing things slower is not going to give you anymore points. The only thing that will get you more points is going out of your way and killing things that you would not ordinarily have killed just for the title.

Getting skills and armour without having to grind is what people want. If they added enough quests to max the title then I would be satisfied because I don't find questing a grind, but I'm sure others would still not be happy. The ideal solution is not going to be found until anet go back to the philosophy of rewarding skill instead of time.

I personally care more about the skills than the armour (though I wouldn't mind some of the asura headgear and dwarven headgear), I used the norn reputation because I had finished all their quests. As for why - there are 3 other campaigns that need completing.

Then that's either bad marketing or false impression, the only aspect of guild wars that's truly Skill > Grind is PvP. But in PvE, every skill progressively becomes more powerful as we ascend in levels. Just as leveling up increase the power of our skills, so does the rank. The idea that Skill > "leveling up" in PvE, just isn't true.

I was assuming you didn't think my example of 5 monsters "too tough".

It is if you're going to do it in 4 days... How many monsters did it take to reach lvl 20? If you had to reach lvl 20 in 4 days, and missions only yield 250 xp each, then certainly it would seem like a grind.


Got it. I take back saying you got a runner.


Obviously the path you took has less monsters on it, so maybe that's why. I don't know about you, but I was swarmed with monsters left and right.

Simple. PvP.

All PvE RPG games build on the fundamentals of killing monsters, leveling up, acquiring upgrades. It's when you're trying to rush it, "playing" suddenly becomes "grinding".

Take your time, the skills aren't going anywhere.... unless they get nerfed. But that's an ENTIRELY different issue. Meanwhile, you can still use it. If after 3 weeks of gameplay and you're still having issues getting to rank 5, maybe then it's a grind... it's only been 4 days.... oh wait, 5 now.

I snipped the whole thing because I'm going to address it all at once.

Its not about rushing GW:EN, its about never being able to reach the goal except by farming monsters for faction. You seem to think that GW was always grind based, when it wasn't. Guildwars was different from most other RPG's out there, in that it [i]wasn't[i] about levels and character power. As soon as you finished the training areas of the game, you were already had reached max level, had perfect equipment and vast array of skills that operated at full efficiency. By contrast you are very, very, very far from having your skills operating at full efficency by playing GW:EN all the way through.

As far as the Skill over Time concept, right up to the point that they introduced Light bringer, this concept was 100% true for PVE. My fissure clad, fellblade wielding warrior was exactly as powerful as Johnny Droknar, the only difference in performance was a direct result of what was between the keyboard and the chair. This is the concept which made GW special - you could grind for hours to get pretty stuff like some farmers or play smart to get pretty items like Herb did (just an example) or you could do neither and still be on a level playing field.

The departure from the ideal that they took by introducing lightbringer effects has been exponentially increased in GW:EN - that is why there is so much disquiet about this issue on the forums. Players like me are seeing the game they love ripped away from them and being replaced by another MMO grind clone.

Honestly, the difference between this "full efficiency" and my lousy 10k Norn points seems so minimal that it never crossed my mind that I'm being jipped.

I see the whole idea that ANet is departing from the original ideal, but at the same time it seems like a lot of people are just nitpicking at the little things they disagree with.

At the higher echelon of gaming commitment, I think you should have to work to get the most out of your character. And I think those who work should have that tiny little advantage over the people who don't. But again, I don't see what the big fuss is about being able to kill an enemy a second or two faster than the next guy. (sorry if my estimation isn't 100% accurate)

But there's always the idea of having easily attainable bragging rights. The idea that you're on the same title as some other guy decked out in the cheapest max-armor set he can get must be just demoralizing. And even then, having to work so hard to get to the next title for that *tiny* little advantage must be so discouraging.

No matter how much of the other side of the argument I read, I still can't see the fuss. I guess I'll stick to blaming it on nitpicking.

Guild Wars was never entirely "grindless" per se, levels are capped at 20 to make it less, but not entirely without some effort to get there. As quick and easy as it seems, getting to level 20 took more time than how long EotN has been out.

The question here is the necessity of these PvE skills, in EotN it's almost entirely optional, as opposed to Lightbringer Gaze, which was almost mandatory in later parts.

Try equipping more than 3 PvE skills, the game will restrict it, because they know were not suppose to depend on them. We can't forget these are bonuses, not meant to overshadow the core skills that we've left the training camp with. They are our primary weapons, and Johnny Droknar can kill just as well without a top teir PvE skill.

Due to the high usage of Lightbringer skills, it has left the impression that players are entirely inadequate without PvE skills. This just isn't true. The title track is not mandatory like Sunspear/LB points were sometimes. These PvE skills, compared with our primary core skills, are no different than an Obsidian armor compared with charr hide armor. Except you can't really see it.

After a little more playing, I have decided that rank 5 is reasonable. Clearing areas is pretty fun and doesn't feel too grindy, and although being lower would be good, it isn't too necessary...

I do kind of think that the skills should be capped at r6 or so, or even better ALWAYS be at max efficiency regardless of level, then anything above that is just for show. Getting uber overpowered skills for grinding is something Anet should NOT allow, as they always say skill>time spent... well in this scenario, time spent will overcome skill. That is not good.

So yeah... while armor with a requirement is okay with me, I have to say that giving better skills to grinders just isn't right, and certainly doesn't go with what Anet promised since the beginning.

So yeah, IMO, 6 should be maximum effectiveness, as 10 is just ridiculous.

While what a lot of you say makes sense, I have to disagree with this... getting to level 20 isn't grind as you can easily do it while playing the story. Getting level 5+ in the ranks is almost impossible by just doing the story and dungeons.

I just think Anet didn't realize people are crazy enough to reach rank 8 in such short amount of time. At the sacrifice of steady fun, they opt to achieve higher ranks for skills that are really just bonuses.

The "grind" in this case (as i quoted) was used to mean "working for something". As anything in life, we have to work to get it, nothing is given for free. We have to work to get what we want, we therefore "grind" to get it... that was the usage.

Whoops, sorry for misinterpreting that. I agree, working for items is fine, my only problem is that the current method is too repetitive/boring.

Right, I want FoW armour. Okay, really I just want the necromancer tunic, the destroyer arms and cabal lower. I also wouldn't mine the destroyer wand or staff to go with said arms but they'll come later. Anyways, the tunic is going to set me back over 300k and I have half that, so one would presume I'd grind... well, I don't consider it grind. It'll explain:

I completed GWEN before most in my alliance, I blitzed it. Then I went back and did all the Asura quests, because they were fun. Polymock's really enjoyable and getting skills as quest rewards always pleased me. I cleared the areas whilst I was at it because it didn't take me very long. Guess what? r5 Asura. I'd already got to r5 Norn in the preview (I cleared V. Falls twice and did everything but the Bison) so I decide to do some dungeons.

Mega fun. Even more fun than I found 'em in the preview. Guess how I'm gonna make the money for FoW?

And unlike DoA/Urgoz/The Deep/Sorrow's Furnace (formerly anyway)... there isn't just one area, there are 18 - and imagine hard mode. It's going to take me a while to get sick of doing dungeons, much longer than it took me to get sick of DoA and I don't consider this pointless grind because I'm having fun - and just gaining titles/money on the side.

That's the kind of attitude I like. You should hit me up for some dungeon runs. No one in my alliance ever wants to do them. IGN: Flux Trallon.

I though I already pointed out that as soon as you've finished the training areas and ready to start playing, you're already L20.


All the claims of optional in the world won't change the fact that a grinder has better skills than a casual player.

And Jane Grind will be able to kill faster, finish elite missions faster, have an easier time vanquishing or guardianing than either Johnny or I.

Warriors Droks armour = AR80 + 20 vs physical
Warriors fissure armour = AR80 + 20 vs physical

Sever Artery 4A - If this attack hits, the opponent begins Bleeding for 5...21 seconds
Ear Bite 4A 3/4 - Target touched foe begins bleeding for 10...25 seconds

Do I need to explain how your comparison falls down or are the descriptions enough?

Dungeons are FTW!!! Definitely the best thing anet ever did for PvE IMO... instead of giving us one or two "elite" areas that aren't part of a campaign, they give us 18... gg!

And your time during the training area? They don't count? We put our time in, it's our effort, it can be seen as a grind. If you had fun, great, if you didn't? well it's the one grind that is necessary.

It's still possible to overpower a build entirely dependend on PvE skills, if you must worry about finishing quests 5 minutes faster.


I wasn't comparing the stats, I was comparing the need for it.

Need max level armor? = Yes
Need Obisidan max level armor? = No

Need Sever Artery? = Yes (well depends on your build)
Need Ear Bite? = No

Why is there a max level armor in every game? Because we need it.
Why do we need to get to level 20 in every game? Because we need it.
Why is there max weapons in every game? Because we need it.
Why ISN'T "Finish Him" in every game? Because we DON'T need it.

If you don't like the training areas you can bypass them completely, many players do.

At least with fissure armour you could get it by playing smart instead of grinding, with the faction point system, there is no option except to c-space for hour farming points, but thats not the point, it is not about needing it, you can can complete the game with an empty skillbar if you want. The undeniable fact is that someone who has a maxed grind title has a character which is incontrovertibly more powerful than someone without the title - that is the problem and a complete corruption of the original gw ideal.

Quite the opposite, I liked it. Just as I enjoyed getting higher ranks, even though they were optional.


Because they can finish missions a couple minutes faster than you? What about players who haven't even purchased EotN to begin with? What devastating disadvantage are they at? How can they ever beat another mission?!?

These PvE skills are bonuses, and benefit players almost immediately, even at rank 2. Anything beyond that is no different than the desire to reach a "titular level 20". But we can't forget, they're only bonuses, extra features to reward players who purchase EotN, not just those who grind for Norn reps.