GWEN...new title GRIND!

Yes, yes, and yes!

BTW Diablo, I don't see anyone here asking to be given skills and armor for doing nothing. In fact, I want to put effort in to get the PvE skills. But the effort should be in completing challenging quests, dungeons, missions, etc. Those kinds of things are not grinding, they are just playing the game.

Doing the same repetitive task over and over IS a grind, and it rewards time spent over player skill. The facts clearly show the GWEN reverses the reason I got into Guild Wars in the first place: that skill should be rewarded over time spent. Prophecies really did have it right...

Save the straw men.

The issue here is that the new PvE skills reward players for grind with increased effectiveness. This is expressely contrary to the original spirit of the game. There is nothing wrong with plain titles or vanity items, because neither one affects character strength at all. You can spend a lot of time getting Legendary Cartographer, and the only benefit you'll ever see is bragging rights. The most expensive equipment in the game has the same stats as collector items. There is no issue with grind for these ends. The problem arises when we can grind for improved performance - this is strictly more power for time spent.

However, while the PvE skills are inappropriate in principle, I also think that the practical differences between ranks is relatively minor. The first several ranks in a title can be acquired easily with minimal grind, and the difference between a PvE skill at r5 and one at r8+ generally isn't anything beyond a few seconds of duration or a few extra points of damage. Obviously, the difference may be significant in some cases, and again, rank-dependence is inappropriate in principle, but overall I think the tangible, in-game difference is negligible.

All of that being said, I don't see any reason for tying PvE skills to title ranks. Anet could have easily made PvE skills with static parameters and avoided this issue altogether. I agree that they're beginning to forget their original design philosophies.

That's not exactly true: Req 8, +15% unmodified, and dual reduction shields are just some examples of rare items that cannot be made. There are also rare items with combos of stats that can't be crafted and/or no Green equivalents.

But to your general point of "skill > grind..." Yes, there is no argument that some PvE skills are more powerful than other skills. But how hard is it really to get most of these skills? I mean, there are Elite skills that are very challenging to get, and yet no one complains about those. It's just part of the Guild Wars experience.

As long as the competitive area of Guild Wars stays on equal footing (and I'd actually argue that PvP has been made MORE balanced with the PvP editions for example), then Anet has fullfilled it's promise.

PvE is not about "fair" play, it's about having fun. I can have fun in Guild Wars without the +100 armor skill from grinding Faction points, and while it is not ideal to me, it doesn't ruin my enjoyment of Guild Wars.

First, if you're *grinding* for end game items, then your not enjoying the game, so move on.

Second, TURN IN YOUR BOOKS! That's 2500 points toward your *faction* of choice. Go help your friends and guildies after you get another book, do the quests, turn it in again...

As i explore, i clear out a zone and i'm r5 asura (not too annoying), haven't even turned in the book yet, nor are there that many point quests for the asura. There's so many bonuses for points, are you picking those up too?? This not to mention each zone i clear, toward the end of the groups i get a new skin gold as a random drop. Not always the best req or mods, but so far they've always been the new stuff. Not sure if thats a game design or that i've just been lucky.

You guys that rush through the game amaze me with your crappy grinding talk...

One person beating the game without any skills does not invalidate the fact that we still need core skills more than PvE skills. Nor does beating the game with no armor, or no weapons, these guys are experimenting with pushing the games to it's limits, not meant for ordinary players.


Core skills that are both accessible by the PvP and PvE community is the skills that count. They are the weapons that are subject to constant tweaking and balancing. PvE-only skills do not cause imbalance, because they're only accessed by one side of the community, specifically only those who've purchased EotN. They're there to spice up your skillbar, and you can't use more than three. If they're just as optional as core skills, we should be allowed to use all 8.

When just about anyone can beat the game with no skills equipped, I'll change my opinion on this, until then, PvE skills are not needed. Prophecies and Factions have yet to need them.


I do believe there are more direct methods. You're giving people who have not purchased EotN the impression that there are more grind to it than it is. You say there are more grind as an indisputable fact, when in reality, it's only an "opinion".

That's a good and honorable way to approach it, but last time I was in town, I remember seeing the same WTS/WTB X over and over again. Maybe they need a lesson from you.

With how easy it is so far, that's like asking it for free.

Maybe I just suck at the game then, I seem to be finding myself faced with numerous monsters all the time... either that or I just need to find this path of less resistence you're travelling on. All I know is I played slower, and I already have rank 4 before I even know there was a rank requirement for armors.


I won't argue that more options is indeed always good. I didn't find the current method boring, it was barely noticeable. But they're not gonna please "everyone" with new options, no matter how many more "options" they add. From what I remember, people have been whining about grind since each and every chapter has ever came out, and this just seems like one of those threads.

Couple of thoughts on GW:EN's ally title tracks. Of course they are optional to complete but here's the problem with GW:EN and really all of GW PvE...you follow the story line to completion and then you have all this other stuff that isn't done (skills, titles, expensive armor, whatever) and so you "work" so that you earn one or more of those things and now you're done. You finally have your shiny new whatever and it's all over...gee that's nice. Let me just go stand around in a town for awhile and see if anyone cares.

The whole thing is structured so that the main story arc always feels like an excuse to move you around the map instead of being a conveyance that properly integrates your character development. Prophecies was probably the least guilty of this and GW:EN is definitely on the other extreme. GW:EN can easily be finished in a week or two of very leisurely play and now the choices are: jump into the elite area while you can before the universally accepted team build comes into vogue and excludes a large portion of the players or you can go dungeon hunting or point grinding. And there may not be anything wrong with that but after playing the game for two plus years this kind of feels like GW is going out with a whimper. It certainly doesn't feel like it will do a good job of holding the fan base until GW2 comes out.

To those who state that people are complaining about the grinding I think you miss the point. First, it's a game and it's played for pleasure. Why would I want to "work" for something in a game? Challenge I want, but work...I've got plenty of other work that I have to do, GW shouldn't be work. Grinding is NOT a challenge. Second, pointing out a problem isn't necessarily complaining. I don't think any of the posters taking issue with the grinding is asking for your sympathy. Third, if you think about the game rationally for one second you will see that the entire thing is structured to be a grind at it's heart...hence the ability to re-activate all the main quests so that you can do them over and over and keep filling out your book. I appreciate ANET making the point grind easier, but the whole thing feels like a cop out. Instead of creating game content they put in grind. Easier, cheaper, faster...and disappointing.

I'm aware there have always been grind. Even since chapter one, certain things that are for prestige and luxury will almost always require a grind of some sort. It's almost synonymous with PvE RPG games.

Cellar claims there have been no "required" grinds until nightfall. Other than the Sunspear/LB points, I don't see reputations as required grinds.

Thank you very much. You put into words what I have been trying to say.

Apathy for an activity is a sign of disinterest. If you think getting your shiny new whatever isn't worth doing, perhaps it's time for you to do something else entirely. Otherwise why bother doing anything at all?

They see a shiny new toy but don't want to walk 3 steps to get it...

Well if the storyline required people to do things like kill 5000 monsters to buy a piece that gets you past a certain point, then people would complain there is required grinding. Instead they are criticizing an expansion designed to give level 20's with max armor and weapons something other then *just* those to shoot for. No one should buy it if they aren't interested in *earning* titles or buying new weapons, or accessories. Which BTW, new head and arm pieces is a slick move IMO, on top of new armor sets.

I think a-net has done a decent job with filling EOTN with enough things to shoot for, if your not interested in those things, you should prolly find another game with different things to shoot for.

I take a great deal of whats posted on these forums with a grain of salt. I'd be willing to bet there are a rather large amount of folks that don't actually *work* for their necessities (home, food, clothes, entertainment), otherwise they would notice that playing GW isn't work at all. I use *work* in the same terms as *play*, if you don't enjoy what your doing, it's work. Time to find a new pastime.... Skydiving is pretty fun

I see both sides of this.

On one hand I want Chaos Gloves to be an end-game reward, on the other hand if everyone had Chaos Gloves would they be as cool?

Still, 75 ectos. Geez. Little further than 3 steps, eh Diablo?

I guess we all just have to be our own judge of that. 3 steps for some, 30 paces for others, we look at whats at the end of the journey and estimate if the trek is worth taking.

The scope of my statement was limited to vanity items, as stated above. A fellblade is not inherently any stronger than a shortsword; that was the entirety of my point. I'm well aware that abnormally low-req items and special mods exist, and I've never agreed with these either. However, as with PvE skills, I think their overall effect is minimal. Are there cases where a req7 longsword is better than a req9 longsword? Maybe. Does it happen often? I doubt it.

At this point you have to distinguish between grind and normal play, and I suppose you run into the problem of 'grind' being subjective. I wouldn't characterize capping elites as grind, just as I wouldn't characterize completing missions to be grind - they are done in the course of normal play. Title grinding is different, because beyond the points you get for quests and exploration, you will have to find an efficient way to "run" areas and rack up points. At this point, it's no longer normal play for fun, and is merely reptitive grind for rewards. That, frankly, is no good.

PvP balance is clearly more important than PvE balance due to the added element of competition, and I agree that the PvP editions are directed to that end. However, I don't recall Anet making a promise of "skill > grind" to just PvPers.

Sure, but it does mean that you're not as effective as someone who did grind out that title.

Again, I think title-based benefits are inappropriate just on principle. I don't actually think they have a significant impact on the players overall. And frankly, I suspect that most players, like you, simply don't give a damn one way or the other. That, of course, is just as good.

I'm just happy that the Norn Blessing skills were available very early in the game...

To be quite honest, I'm actually focused on getting a Black Moa Chick at the moment, which requires me to "grind" 10k Luxon faction (never did the Luxon side with Amara).

And that brings up your point: Grind is subjective. For some, the 100k to get Luxon Supporter is not grind. For me, it's not even worth obtaining.

I guess we all make those choices....

Indeed there is FAR too much grind.

Anet used to put on their official website that one of the highlights of Guild Wars is that it's based on skill and NOT on grind. Notice how that's not there anymore? Coincidence?

Exactly. I agree completely.

My thing is that while I hate grinding, I could do it if it was worth it. So they lowered the rank requirements? Good for them, now let's make some armor that actually makes me want to tolerate grinding for. None of the armor pieces/sets I've seen for any of the GWEN professions is worth "working" for. I don't know who designed it but they have no talent. It's REALLY boring and obviously recycled. I've seen most of the GWEN armor and the only pieces of armor I like are the spectacles and the face paint, but I have to grind for this? Please. If they expect us to do all this tiresome repetitive rank farming then at least put forth some effort into designing nice armor or eliminate the rank requirements altogether. If not, maybe they should go easier on the folks that make bots.

My overall rating for GWEN is 3.0 out of 5. It could have been better, and I know because Nightfall was better. Even Factions beats GWEN, and yes, that's a slap in the face. This should have been a $15 expansion at best.

You guys use the term "Grind" like it's universal. Define grind, because to us, Grind means "eaning" something, especially luxury goods. If you want something, and don't want to "earn" it, the problem isn't the game.

If grind is specifically an activity that you don't like, then it's a matter of opinion, it's not a factor of the game. Who knows? Maybe in Korea, doing missions and quests are considered a grind, and all they want to do is go out there and rampage. Ever played Lineage 2?

Don't say "Grind" like we all agree its the same thing...

That's why I brought up the Faction example.

Does anyone here consider getting the 10k Faction "grind?" If so, then Guild Wars has had "grind" way before GWEN.

If not, why not? What specifically is different between say, the Norn title track, and getting 10k Faction for Luxon?

Where GW differs right now from many other MMO's is that it's easier to obtain, adventure, or otherwise earn max stat weapons armor or goods. So *the grind* is purely for those interested in having the best they think is out there. This is also a good deal of GW's downfall, better isn't really better, only more rare and people get upset by not having or being the best at something. Wow for example is more geared toward having the uber and rare weapons, armor and skills along with expanding the level cap, but thats not how GW1 was designed at all.

Overall rating for me is a 4.5 out of 5, with only one thing i would actually change with the HOM. That would be to show any accomplishment you deem valuable, whether or not those carry over to GW2 or not. Most people interested in HOM are really only interested in looking back at all that they have gotten and picking favorites of those to display, mostly for themselves to gaze upon and less then to show off. Having tangible items to show for your days spent is nice, even if no one else cares.

None of the Elite skills in any of the GW games are "very challenging" to get. Just about every one of them is remarkably easy to get. FoC and the Sunjiang caps can be marginally challenging due to many mobs in the same place. Everything else is remarkably easy to get.

People don't complain about grind because it's "challenging". Rather, the opposite is true, repeating the same task hundreds/thousands of times is not the least bit challenging. If challenge did exist in the place of where grind is, that would be great.

That's a nice perspective on it... I actually didn't care about HoM much until I read this. I agree they can definitely be more flexible with what we display though.

For me Grind means having to do something menial over and over and over again in order to progress further ahead in the game. an example would be like when I played Final Fantasy (#) and I would have to be a certain level before I would learn new spells or would have to be lvl X in order to even survive the next area.

Guild Wars, in my opinion, does not make you "grind" in order to progress. Everything that seems to need "grinding" for in GW is purely optional!!

God, the more I read peoples whining, complaining post that are filling up the first couple pages here I just get sick of it. Players here want things handed to them on a silver freakin platter. They don't want to work for a damned thing. Oh they want that new shiny item to be special and leet. They want to be the first to get chaos gloves or whatever. But they are not willing to do anything for it.

Why do you think some things in this game are special?? Cause they are hard to get and not everyone will take the time to get them. THAT is why they are special. How special would it be for everyone to finish GW:EN automatically had Magma Gloves put into their inventory?? Well then they would not be worth spit just like the mini-warthog was special to begin with until it was figured out that everyone got one. Not so special then were they.

Fact is, you want something uber,leet,special and standout then you are going to have to do more than just play through the story line.

GW:EN has only be out 5 days!!! For gosh sake stop complaining for once and go play the friggin game!! "oh but I beat it already" WHAT? Jesus! NO one forced you to do a marathon run through. In Five days I am still doing Norn quests, have not even seen the lands of the Ausra, and barely fought Charr. Slooooow down and enjoy the game for pete's sake.

I think *grind* is anything you have to do over and over again to earn something. Where the enjoyment often comes from the "newness" of something, grind would be the same ole. Most games and even most of your everyday life is grind in that sense. Just a lot of repetitive stuff. But, to be abe to offer such a wide spectrum of ways to earn the end goal would require a huge amount of time and resources, for technological type things like this, the game would be outdated in many ways long before it was ever to be released. All in all i think a-net did a pretty good job of offering some new unique ways to do the very similar stuff all over again and made it prettier then any MMO available. For the basic game engine design to look this good 2.5 years later is a pretty good accomplishment as well.

At the very basic level, all games are "grind."

Once you learn that specific games mechanics, you are essentially doing the same things over and over (albeit, at harder difficulty or with slight tweaks, like a new weapon in a FPS).

Tell that to my Mesmer who just wanted to get Signet of Illusion...

My point is everything could be considered grind if you are not enjoying the game.

i would not care about grinding for armor IF it didn't suck..i am disappointed about most of the armor sets in my opinion most should be taken out and new armors created the only things i would grind for are the unique things such as the asuran spectacles seriously anet you promised us 40 armors but you never said they would look so bad

I think some are missing the point with GW:EN here. It isn't about finishing the game, it's about exploring the new areas, doing all the dungeons. I bet most who complained didn't even finish all of the dungeons. If you do 1 area at a time you will enjoy it more.

Some are complaining about grind. Well if you haven't played FFXI,WOW,Lineage 2 then you have no idea what grind is. Just playing through the game I already am almost rank 5 with the Asura simply by doing the dungeons and quests.

Why should they? Just because it happens to be you don't like the way they look? I'm sure they think they look just fine, and I agree.

Poopalook, then. You like poopalook? I'll use 'poopalook' to describe the tedious, repetitive, eye-watering act of spending hours doing the same thing over and over again to reach a certain mark in a game.

Tomato, tomato. While personal definitions will vary somewhat here and there, most people understand what 'grind' means in this context, whether you enjoy the act it describes or not. I don't really care if you agree with the widely accepted definition of the word, just don't tell us how we should use it to accommodate your confusion.

i know grind can get boring (sslb farming for hours is a chore) but so far i love gwen and have no prob farmin the points (granted 200k is lookin real far away tho) but to get the 26k for armor seems ok and resonable cos it makes ppl put in effort to get it which i think is fair enough (they even lowered it from the preview tho that was expected) and tho there is meant to be no grind in gw there has to be something to distinguish those who play alot and are hardcore gwers and those who are casual/somewhere in between so tho there may be some isues with it overall it seems like an ok system

I think you're more interested in splitting hairs then debating the issue which of course is your prerogative but again from what I see I don't think the issue for most is the fact something has to be earned. The issue is the it really requires nothing other then spending time versus actually requiring the player to surmount a challenge. So I completed the main story line in GW:EN and got my end game item. That is an example of how I was presented with a challenge and rewarded for completing it. Yet being done with the game I don't have access to any of the armorers and in order to get access I need to accumulate thousands more points. Granted I have a few quests left that will get me some additional points but that will still leave me well short of the points required to gain access. So at that time I will have to resort to "grinding" points by spending time for no other purpose other then point accumulation. That is not a challenge and that doesn't really feel like I'm earning anything. It feels like the game has trapped me into a time sink and my choices are stepping away from the trap or putting in the time.

Of course each player will make that choice on their own. The point is could ANET have done a better job of holding the players interest and avoiding the time sink? I guess your viewpoint is no. I was expecting better. Frankly from a number of the titles that have been created over the last 12 months or so I should have known better. My mistake.

Maybe I'm just a little confused here, but Lightbringer's gaze/signet was/were actually REQUIRED to complete Nightfall???

You're opinion of how the armor looks does not give you the throw insults at them. Whether you feel like "grinding" for those armor is up to you, that doesn't mean they have "no talent".

tiresome? repetitive? opinions. Because I certainly don't think geting to rank 5 is tiresome nor reptetitive. I thought it was easy, but you won't see me asking for them to raise the rank requirements based on MY opinion.

If you don't like the game go ahead and rant, elaborate why you don't like it, but don't lace it with insults like "slap in the face." This isn't me telling you what to do or say, this is me saying you're just being god damn rude.

For the record, I never argued against more options for reputations, I'm perfectly fine with what we have now, but more is always better. I'm concerned with people who wants to reduce the ranks or eliminate it all together.

So what if they do reduce it? And the next time an expansion comes out... you want them to reduce it more? With each passing release, we constantly ask them to reduce achievement requirements, so that we can "achieve" less and yet reap the goods.

If the kids aren't passing the tests, you don't reduce the difficulty... it just means they gotta study more.

So in short, my viewpoint is yes, I just don't think most of the people here complaining about the rank is actually asking for more options as opposed to "lowering the ranks" or eliminating it all together.

Hope that answers your question.

Not the skills themselves, but certain pivotal quests will not be available until players reach certain ranks. It is not possible to pass the game without at least acquiring Sunspear General.

Diablo, hate to tell you this, as I know some to get so involved with the game that they can't let it go. This is not life. It is a product that was produced for the enjoyment of the customer. If the customer is not happy with the product, they have every right to complain and make sure that the company and the other prospective buyers are aware. This is done with every product the world over.

I am not happy with GWEN. I have stated my reasons. You stated that you worked in the gaming industry but not Anet. What GWEN did is becoming norm for most games now to get more time online so the customer feels the got a BARGAIN. The BARGAIN with Guild Wars has been that it was never like this and you could enjoy the game as a casual player. This has fundementaly changed. GWEN feels so much like WOW with the timing of the quests, the ENDLESS grinding if you want the skills, that in my opinion I really don't care about. They are not that good. Hence my reason for I would love my money back.

So, if you compare a game to real life as you did, you prove my point. A Challenge to get what you want, sure. Difficulty hard with impossible odds, bring it on. Wasting time grinding, NOT.

Ummm, I wouldn't say that. I have been playing GW:EN since day one, thoroughly enjoying myself, and have ranks of exactly zero in everything. I'm not saying the ranks are hard to attain, but you do have to go out of your way to get them.

I shouldn't have to go side track myself just to be able to window shop for the armor, weapons, consumables, etc. I should be able to at least have access through normal play of the primary questline. Factions allowed for 15k luxon/kurzick through following the questlines which brought you to the places. You gained the 10k faction by doing the quests given to you which lead you along the questline, ie the the quests given in cavalon and house zu helzter. I shouldn't have to follow the questline for a bit, then spend a few hours in one spot, then continue back on with the story. By the time I finish GWEN I should already have at least rank5 just by going through the primaries. Not stopping and making pit stops here and there to gain more rep points.

There are some good suggestions, but then there are some crazy stupid people out there that thinks they got the right idea, but if we listen to everybody, then the game wouldn't get very far either. (This is in no way directed at you, just a reason why you can't just take everybody's suggestion)

As far as I'm concerned it still is a casual game, the endless rush to grind, the "timing of the quests" are all self-imposed deadlines. When they say it's a casual game play, they mean there's no imposed incentive to play or you'll lose $15 monthly fees. The game doesn't penalize you for going AWOL for a month. When you come back to play, everything's the same, you're not suddenly incapable of handling the environment or PvP becomes entirely out of your level range. This is how I percieve it at least.

It certainly shouldn't be a surprise to log on to a game after AWOLing for a month to realize many players have 15k armors, such system has been there since Prophecies. So really, nothing has changed.

Couple of A+ students have passed the test, and the C-students couldn't make the hurdle because studying was too much "grind". They ask the teacher's to reduce the passing grade so that they too can pass. I don't see how this is different than how it is.

You're absolutely right. The 40 bucks I paid for the game gives me the right to throw insults at them.


Great, you're easily amused. If you feel you got what you paid for, then it's all good. I think you could have saved some money by buying a sack of marbles, but that's my lowly opinion.

Well now that I have your permission to rant, I feel much better. Hmm, but it does seem like you're telling me 'what to do or say', doesn't it? I mean why can't I use the phrase "slap in the face" if it suits my fancy? Look, if you're the one who designed the armor, no hard feelings. Just try and learn from the numerous examples of great fantasy art floating around on the internet and you might be able to come up with something more creative next time. Good luck.