The game is easy for the player that uses tricks such as 600/monks where you boost the HP of a monk to 600 and then use Protective Spirit/Spirit Bond to stay alive while a passive skill such as Holy Wrath etc. kills creatures around you. I saw a Monk defeat Varesh with only 3 heroes. Each hero just had about 5 skills. Would that person say the mission was easy? Heck yeah. But if that was the way the mission was meant to be played I don't understand the thinking of the Dev team.
It does not require tricks, and IMO, these tricks should be removed from the game. The game is easy for people that understand how the game works, the more you understand the game, the more easy/boring it becomes. 90% of the game is still just pull a group, kill the group, move on. Any decent team setup can roll over it.
Quote:
If the game and missions are being made harder to facilitate people that play like that with these trick builds (Because that particular combination isn't viable for normal play elsewhere, it was created specifically for that mission) I think it a ridiculous focus for the dev team.
I am actually disappointed at how easy Eye of the North was. I'm sure many people struggle with it, and thats fine. Eventually you have to learn how to play a game. If the game is easy for people who have no understanding of it, then what will it be for people who do understand it?
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The Elitist group of players always forget the casual player who has not bought all 3 campaigns and does not have access to every power in the game.
I've not forgotten about the casual player. The fact remains, however, that when making an expansion pack, they are going to be trying to please the mediocre players who atleast remotely understand the game. I'm deeply sorry that the game is not entirely mending wammo material, but seriously at some point you atleast need to start trying to understand the game if you wish to finish it.
19 Sep 2007 at 12:19 - 288
Quote:
Originally Posted by TabascoSauce
I had not thought of the assassin way.
^ My paragon's M.Bison beater build doesn't have blind or block in it. So what's that make me then?
19 Sep 2007 at 12:21 - 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Etta
^ My paragon's M.Bison beater build doesn't have blind or block in it. So what's that make me then?
Probably the degen+snare route.
19 Sep 2007 at 12:33 - 290
Quote:
Originally Posted by Omniclasm
Probably the degen+snare route.
Ow right the first time, don't forget to run around a bit as well. 
19 Sep 2007 at 12:33 - 291
Quote:
Originally Posted by Etta
^ My paragon's M.Bison beater build doesn't have blind or block in it. So what's that make me then?
Pretty damn leet.
But wow, I didn't know how much of a battlefield was going on in here, I need to get me in on some of this action!
19 Sep 2007 at 13:19 - 292
Quote:
Originally Posted by TabascoSauce
I had not thought of the assassin way.  I'll still stand by my post, though. That is a trick build that I had not listed, to counter Magni's trick build. A generalist build will not win through player skill alone, but a poorer player (which I can use myself as an example of, since certain people seems to think I suck at the game heh) can win with the right skills. Look at me, I got through the game, but that is probably because I have every skill from all 4 games. 
Thanks!
TabascoSauce
Trick build?
Hardly.
It was exactly the same build I use for the rest of Eye of the North... It can solo Jotuns for heck sake! While it only takes a little anti-melee hate (blindness, miss-hexes, empathy or SS) to shut it down completely, there is very little else that can be done to stop it... mostly because it is tough to hit, self-heals, and has obscene AoE DPS.
Yes... I just wailed on Magni and outdamaged his healing.... and he couldn't hit me all that much in return (and even when he did, I had the oppurtunity to heal it back up again).
Does that seriously look like a specialist gimmick to you?
19 Sep 2007 at 14:23 - 293
Quote:
Originally Posted by SotiCoto
Does that seriously look like a specialist gimmick to you?
I can see how you would use that to refute what I am saying. I begin to suspect that I am not distilling down my argument well, because of your "look at my exception to your statement!" tact.
But yes, it is a "trick" build. Guild Wars is full of "trick" builds that have a rock, paper, scissors dynamic - just as you say, melee shutdown will stop you. A general skills build does not rely on any "tricks", and Whammo is a good example - it is just raw healing and damage. It will lose to any "trick" build.
So, really, Guild Wars is a 4 choice game - rock, paper, scissors, and let us call the last one "Whammo". Rock beats Scissors beats Paper beats Rock, and they all beat Whammo. The players who do not have the skills to play rock, paper, or scissors will be incredibly hampered playing the game, and we see that in every post that the game is crazy hard!
And occasionally, there is a "trick" build introduced by new skills that may be based on Rock, may be Scissors, whatever, that will beat both other choices upsetting the gimmick/countergimmick nature of the game, and ANet then descends with the Nerf Hammer to restore game balance.
So I feel safe making the statement that certain bosses require specific skills because they all are using a "trick" to make them tough to beat. And, if the player does not have the skills to play the counter, they will not get through no matter how skilled they are as a player. For Magni, you need the exact counter that you as the assassin are vulnerable to - anti-melee. I used Blind and Cripple/kite because those are the simplest ways, and I used them myself to beat him. I did not go the assassin route, because I do not have an assassin primary.
Where it gets controversial is the statement that I am mocking all the players with "learn to play" responses - that the game is not as deep as they think, and that the skills used are more important than player skill. Their implication that this game is difficult to comprehend shows a belief that they have something that other people do not have, which is hubris at its finest. I would also challenge anyone to state, with an honest face, that the best GW player with a Rock build, will easily beat an average player with a Paper build.
So when they say "learn to play", they really mean "learn to cap skills".
And lastly, to all the players in game who get the ego boost from the "mad leet playa skillz" they have, well, I do OK too - since I have every skill from all 4 games. I just don't fib and say "this game is hard to master, lrn2play noob" when really, a few skills to beat whatever "trick" is being played by other players or the Bot/Boss AI is all that is required. It is not rocket science to know that LoD counters party-wide degen better than WoH, or that an interrupted spell or attack is better than a heal.
Thanks!
TabascoSauce
19 Sep 2007 at 14:42 - 294
Quote:
Originally Posted by TabascoSauce
So, really, Guild Wars is a 4 choice game - rock, paper, scissors, and let us call the last one "Whammo". Rock beats Scissors beats Paper beats Rock, and they all beat Whammo. The players who do not have the skills to play rock, paper, or scissors will be incredibly hampered playing the game, and we see that in every post that the game is crazy hard!
I guess I have a 5th option, because I never lose.
Or maybe it's because I've PvP'd, therefore have a greater knowledge of how to counter things...
19 Sep 2007 at 14:43 - 295
Two posts above, 100% agree with TobascoSauce. This is pretty much what me and SotiCoto were talking about in his other thread.
Quote:
Originally Posted by fenix
Or maybe it's because I've PvP'd, therefore have a greater knowledge of how to counter things...
PvP is quite the reality check, I will say.
19 Sep 2007 at 15:09 - 296
I did not see that thread, but am reading it now.
Thanks!
TabascoSauce
19 Sep 2007 at 15:13 - 297
Quote:
Originally Posted by TabascoSauce
I did not see that thread, but am reading it now.
Thanks!
TabascoSauce
Oh you can read it if you want (it's the closed one), it was mostly all off-topic anyhow, but I didn't mean "lolz you just watsed yer time I already said all this stuff PWNT". I was more saying "Aw crap SotiCoto is gonna be having the same argument again".
19 Sep 2007 at 15:48 - 298
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryant Again
Oh you can read it if you want (it's the closed one), it was mostly all off-topic anyhow, but I didn't mean "lolz you just watsed yer time I already said all this stuff PWNT". I was more saying "Aw crap SotiCoto is gonna be having the same argument again".
You can make the claim that you said it all first - I'm good with that. This exact topic of conversation has come up in GURU before, with different authors. This is merely the continuation., Well, let me rephrase that whole thing, the idea of in-game skill balancing and player actual skill influencing the outcome of any player versus player endeavor is older than the hills. The English had debates about legal or illegal woods for cricket bats, and how the availability of different woods in their colonies affected the game, for example.
There are only so many ways to design a fork, so funny enough they all seem to look alike.
Thanks!
TabascoSauce
19 Sep 2007 at 20:21 - 299
GW:EN was easy. Very easy. Very very easy. Almost easy as Pre-Searing.
19 Sep 2007 at 21:13 - 300
Quote:
Originally Posted by TabascoSauce
Whatever helps you sleep at night, bro.
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You've used that phrase 4 times now just on the last couple of pages. Your record is broken, it's time for a new tune.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by TabascoSauce
The implication that "skills" > player skill always brings out a heated response from the PvP crowd. I said it before, I'll say it again - if skill was more important as "skills" equipped, then a superior player would be able to overcome a deficient build.
Good players don't use deficient builds, so this is irrelevant. What's next, "Gear > player skill, because naked players don't win GvG tournaments?". If there were really little or no skill involved, then all those millions of random joes would be at the GvG tournaments, and it would be effectively random who wins. Of course, they aren't there, because player skill is much more of a differentiator than you seem to want to believe, and it has tended to be the same set of guilds and players winning over time. You've been told this by multiple people now.
It is a truism that people who are bad at things, always try to downplay the amount of personal ability involved. It happens in every single activity, particularly computer games.
19 Sep 2007 at 22:22 - 301
Quote:
Originally Posted by fenix
I guess I have a 5th option, because I never lose.
Or maybe it's because I've PvP'd, therefore have a greater knowledge of how to counter things...
QFT.
My party for the whole of GW:EN was legoway...with a SS/Barbs controller. Supposedly rangerspike does it too ^_^
19 Sep 2007 at 23:04 - 302
Quote:
Originally Posted by fenix
I guess I have a 5th option, because I never lose.
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Nice move - you know if you post your build that it might be nerfed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gigashadow
You've used that phrase 4 times now just on the last couple of pages. Your record is broken, it's time for a new tune.
It is a truism that people who are bad at things, always try to downplay the amount of personal ability involved. It happens in every single activity, particularly computer games.
Uh, since you so appreciate sarcasm, would you prefer "if it soothes your fragile ego, which is misplaced when invested so heavily in a game that you actually feel hurt and insulted when someone posts the truth that nerf after nerf after nerf was caused by the crying of all the PvP athletes because some scrubs found a loophole and gave them a whomping even though the honest PvP athletes were more skilled than the cheating scrubs?"
Go ahead and tell me I am not good at GW - oh yeah I think you might have already implied that. Well, according to your logic I'm proof positive that builds are more important than skill, because I've won every game with all 7 of my main characters, and partially with my mules. I'm the guy helping people out in the "tough" missions, and capping skills, which I have every one. Oh yeah, and PvP? Got the shirt. Its in the closet, but I've put in my time.
Its all good bro. I don't mind, cause I have no ego invested in this game. It is recreation, not something a vehicle for self-esteem. I submit to you that you are biased because you do have ego invested, and that is why you are insulting me and not even bothering to argue logically.
Thanks!
TabascoSauce
19 Sep 2007 at 23:21 - 303
Quote:
Originally Posted by TabascoSauce
Go ahead and tell me I am not good at GW - oh yeah I think you might have already implied that. Well, according to your logic I'm proof positive that builds are more important than skill, because I've won every game with all 7 of my main characters, and partially with my mules. I'm the guy helping people out in the "tough" missions, and capping skills, which I have every one. Oh yeah, and PvP? Got the shirt. Its in the closet, but I've put in my time.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by TabascoSauce
I have no ego invested in this game.
........................
19 Sep 2007 at 23:34 - 304
Quote:
Originally Posted by TabascoSauce
Uh, since you so appreciate sarcasm, would you prefer "if it soothes your fragile ego, which is misplaced when invested so heavily in a game that you actually feel hurt and insulted when someone posts the truth that nerf after nerf after nerf was caused by the crying of all the PvP athletes because some scrubs found a loophole and gave them a whomping even though the honest PvP athletes were more skilled than the cheating scrubs?"
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Wow, bitter much?
Quote:
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Originally Posted by TabascoSauce
Its all good bro. I don't mind, cause I have no ego invested in this game. It is recreation, not something a vehicle for self-esteem. I submit to you that you are biased because you do have ego invested, and that is why you are insulting me and not even bothering to argue logically.
Actually, this is an ironic comment, because it is clear that the person actually emotionally invested in this game is you. I'm sorry that you are so upset about certain aspects of the game that you feel the need to embark on your anti-pvp posting crusade, sniping left and right at any post that might even hint at player ability being an important factor there.
For some reason, it seems to really really bother you that some people can actually be better at Guild Wars PvP than others. Just let it go, no matter what the activity is, whether the game is shallow, or deep, there will always be people out there who are better at the game and are more successful than others. Getting obsessive about deriding other people's accomplishments, even if it's only in a silly computer game people play for fun, just makes you look incredibly bitter.
20 Sep 2007 at 00:53 - 305
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gigashadow
Wow, bitter much?
Uh, no. I appreciate sarcasm as much as you do.
It is funny, that when people post opinions on the internet, they are always anti-something. I'm not anti-PvP. I'm pro-skill collection. I'm in here posting that this is the most important thing you can do in the game, and the reason comes down to the rock, paper, scissors nature of the game.
So, if you look back, you know I started mentioning the PvP in that first post, because you folks seem to take the concept that a superior build will beat player skill, well, personally.
I can characterize you as being ego-dependent on the game as much as you can characterize me as being a poor player who does not understand the game.
In the end, I still feel safe stating that capping skills will allow you to win in PvE (and PvP as well) simply for the rock, paper, scissors options available, and that player skill, while important, is not as deep as you folks seem to want to paint it out to be. Take it as an attack, or not.
If you want to paint me as an anti-PvP kinda guy, then that may be a reflection of your own bias. Hate PvE much?
You do not know me from Adam, why would my assertion that GW capped skills > player skill bother you?
Thanks!
TabascoSauce
Edit - see for Yichi there, he or she appreciates sarcasm because he/she uses it so much, so I know that he/she just loves to talk to me. Touche, and a tip of the hat.
20 Sep 2007 at 02:32 - 306
Here is a classic example of just stupid;
I made it to the Shards of Orr dungeon doing part of the primary quest. I go inside and the first mob is 5 wizards 2 clerics and 1 necro. I starting moving in to attack and "Boom", just that quick my whole team is dead, resed tried again and "boom" all dead again. I had -28dp and not even past the first mob so I just left totally disgusted.
It should not matter what skills, builds or team build you have you should not encounter mobs that instantly wipe you like that not even in hard mode. That was not a challenge not by any definition, that was just freaking stupid.
20 Sep 2007 at 03:12 - 307
I just played through most of eotn finally...
...
And I don't see what you guys are complaining about. I've found EotN EASIER than Prophecies, EASIER than Factions, and EASIER than Nightfall.
And I'm not even that good a player compared to most gwers.
20 Sep 2007 at 05:57 - 308
Heh anyone did the 'Misanthropic Jotun Principle'? That dungeon is so easy it's not funny anymore, bring [skill]ward of stability[/skill] and 7 puppies and you will still win.
20 Sep 2007 at 10:01 - 309
Quote:
Originally Posted by TabascoSauce
Nice move - you know if you post your build that it might be nerfed.
I don't know about Fenix, but all the builds I run are taken from GvG and HA. They're quite visible already
20 Sep 2007 at 10:27 - 310
games not all that hard, i am normally up to 60 DP and i cope with it, now you guys see why pugs own? someone is always the meat sheild than :P
20 Sep 2007 at 10:28 - 311
Wow...intense thread and some great posts.
EotN can be hard but the only people I've seen get as frustrated as the OP and the like are those that have no comprehension of how to adapt to new scenarios and situations.
With an open mind and willingness to adapt, change builds and use alternate tactics for the given situation EotN is actually not as hard as one would think.It just takes a bit more thought while thinking outside the square of builds and strategies that got people through the prequels.
It's obvious Anet have not wanted to make the game insanely difficult but have wanted people to challenge themselves and the preordained and cookie cutter success of previous game play.It's the last hurrah before GW2 so why not attempt to take the GW community out of it's comfort shell and make them try new things that were otherwise unthinkable or merely not required for success.
As stated the only people I've seen struggle are those running the same builds and playing the same way they always have while those that have sat back and analyzed the goal at hand and have adapted their game play to suit have been having a blast.....and thats coming from a Sin.
EotN ftw.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cobalt
It should not matter what skills, builds or team build you have you should not encounter mobs that instantly wipe you like that not even in hard mode.
That makes absolutely no sense.
Of course skills, builds and team build play a part...thats why it's called a high end expansion and thats why you got wiped.
At the end of the day thousands of people, if not hundreds of thousands, have done that level....easily.Purely because they adapted and went into it with the right build and set-up.
If your unwilling to adapt or make an effort towards changing your play-style thats fine but don't put the game at fault when it's actually your inability to strategize.
20 Sep 2007 at 10:32 - 312
Ive h/hed most dungeons so far, including Rragars Menagerie. I havent found any of them to be imposible. Frostmaws can be challenging, so go with players on that and it instantly becomes quite easy i find. Heart of the Shiverpeaks takes a player team the first time to keep the barrels coming, but after that i think its more than henchable.
I h/hed every mission but the final one (and heart of shiverpeaks).
I agree that the game has become far easier, try trotting around the realm of torment and then tell us how hard the game is.
Your solution probably lies in rethinking your own build, as well as those of your heroes and which henches you take.
20 Sep 2007 at 10:52 - 313
Quote:
Originally Posted by distilledwill
Frostmaws can be challenging, so go with players on that and it instantly becomes quite easy i find.
Yeah flagging henches away from the worm spawns for 5 floors on end gets old pretty fast ^^. At least players run away by themselves.
20 Sep 2007 at 11:12 - 314
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cobalt
Here is a classic example of just stupid;
I made it to the Shards of Orr dungeon doing part of the primary quest. I go inside and the first mob is 5 wizards 2 clerics and 1 necro. I starting moving in to attack and "Boom", just that quick my whole team is dead, resed tried again and "boom" all dead again. I had -28dp and not even past the first mob so I just left totally disgusted.
It should not matter what skills, builds or team build you have you should not encounter mobs that instantly wipe you like that not even in hard mode. That was not a challenge not by any definition, that was just freaking stupid.
something very wrong with your team build and with the way you agro mobs, if your team was whiped with only 1 atack from wizards your defense not exist and you gived them the chance to shoot you before you shoot them maybe you could post here your build and party setup so whe can see what you doing wrong ... causes for that
1- you had noone in party to interrupt the wizards
2- you toke too long time to atack or your team wasent powered enough to whip the group fast - if prot monk + para or rit bad setup this sould be suicide
3- dont tell me you stayed quiet looking at the meteors coming on your team ... to avoid this look at skill cast bar of enemie and when meteor is almost casted just make a flaged move of your team to BACK never to side or front (if you do a flag move of heros and henchs all skills they are casting are gona be interruped so do a front or side move is suicide)
4 - other situation that happens a lot is that peeps put only energy runes on heros and forget they need protection runes too ... whats the point of have ele heros with 105 energy if they die fast
20 Sep 2007 at 11:47 - 315
Quote:
Originally Posted by Avarre
I don't know about Fenix, but all the builds I run are taken from GvG and HA. They're quite visible already
Yeah, they have already been through the nerf machine. 
Thanks!
TabascoSauce
20 Sep 2007 at 12:12 - 316
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cobalt
Here is a classic example of just stupid;
I made it to the Shards of Orr dungeon doing part of the primary quest. I go inside and the first mob is 5 wizards 2 clerics and 1 necro. I starting moving in to attack and "Boom", just that quick my whole team is dead, resed tried again and "boom" all dead again. I had -28dp and not even past the first mob so I just left totally disgusted.
Hit them first with [skill]maelstrom[/skill] and the wizards die totally disgusted :P
20 Sep 2007 at 12:40 - 317
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cobalt
Here is a classic example of just stupid;
I made it to the Shards of Orr dungeon doing part of the primary quest. I go inside and the first mob is 5 wizards 2 clerics and 1 necro. I starting moving in to attack and "Boom", just that quick my whole team is dead, resed tried again and "boom" all dead again. I had -28dp and not even past the first mob so I just left totally disgusted.
It should not matter what skills, builds or team build you have you should not encounter mobs that instantly wipe you like that not even in hard mode. That was not a challenge not by any definition, that was just freaking stupid.
Classic example of a quiter.
Ive cleared Slavers Exile with Hero/hench at 60%dp
Ive cleared Shards of Orr with 30%dp.
Mob camping at the res shrine? Pull them off it!
Cant stop them from ressing? Kill priest and run, they tend to chase rather than res. Keep them buisy long enough and no corpse to res.
Effort, that is what this game requires. If your party can not do any of the above then leave and change your party/skill bars.
If your mad that it takes you an hour and several party wipes to complete a dungeon while others do the same dungeon in 20min with 0 deaths what does that tell you?
20 Sep 2007 at 13:44 - 318
I did slavers exile with a pug 10% morale boost
and managed doing shards of orr after dying 30 times at the boss xD ( He doesnt regenerate )
Anyway Guildwars isnt hard
Its 1 of the more easy rpgs around imo
Have Fun
20 Sep 2007 at 15:49 - 319
I havent done every dungeon yet and not slavers exile.
However i have completead the Storyline, using basically the exact same build throughout, (one exception was the last quest killing the great destroyer, had to pull in dervishes there)
Im not a fantastic player, i use the H/H, basically i use two beastmster rangers, one MM, then the two ele henchies and the two monk henchies.
Im a mesmer with ranger as secondary. this has taken me through the whoel of GW:EN. and has also got me through vanquishing elona, along with doign some of the misions, i sometmes take my partner with me, and she uses a fire ele, takes a earth lel heore, and two monks, we tend to do ok and get thorugh relatively easy with good pulling tactics.
The game hasnt been unrealistically difficult for me
The only time i tend to pound my keyboard and yell at the comp is wen i play polymock
20 Sep 2007 at 17:19 - 320
They should just make a hero named jason bourne that is unlocked when you get 5000 deaths on your character, then we won't have to deal with anymore noobs complaining
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