Unrealistic Difficulty!!!!
EinherjarMx
first time i finished gwen was with an ele and cookie cutter builds just for the sake of easyness, once i entered shards of orr, got wiped, changed some heroes, some skills and kept going, everyone has said it, "adapt" that's it
SpotJorge
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ministry Of Peace
They should just make a hero named jason bourne that is unlocked when you get 5000 deaths on your character, then we won't have to deal with anymore noobs complaining 
OMG nº1 
erm ... but with only 5000 deaths only some players would unlock it in 1 day
erm ... but with only 5000 deaths only some players would unlock it in 1 day
byteme!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crom The Pale
If your mad that it takes you an hour and several party wipes to complete a dungeon while others do the same dungeon in 20min with 0 deaths what does that tell you?
This thread should've ended here.
Crom The Pale
One final note, as I've just killed Duncan the Black with hench/heros.
This is one of those bosses that frustrates me in that he requires a very limited set of skills in your party in order to be able to kill him.
I was able to use my standard party build to wipe everything from the dungeon but once I reached him his monster only skill dealing 200% dmg back on its source(skill reads 100% but actually deals 200%) wiped my party repeatedly.
Checking on wiki I discover that to beat him I need a necro with SV or SS and/or a mesmer with Backfire and empathy. Add Swap to remove his spirits and thats 5 skills out of how many available to all classes that are forced upon my party. I added them, dropping 2 heros that I prefer for a mes and necro and found that it was much much harder to get to Duncan, but once there it was a simple matter of cast those 5 skills and sit and wait. Being a War all I could do was watch as my attacks rebounded 2 fold on my sending my monk over the edge.
This was not a fun boss fight, though not terribly hard, it was not what brings me back to playing GW.
Bring back some fun boss fights PLEASE!!
This is one of those bosses that frustrates me in that he requires a very limited set of skills in your party in order to be able to kill him.
I was able to use my standard party build to wipe everything from the dungeon but once I reached him his monster only skill dealing 200% dmg back on its source(skill reads 100% but actually deals 200%) wiped my party repeatedly.
Checking on wiki I discover that to beat him I need a necro with SV or SS and/or a mesmer with Backfire and empathy. Add Swap to remove his spirits and thats 5 skills out of how many available to all classes that are forced upon my party. I added them, dropping 2 heros that I prefer for a mes and necro and found that it was much much harder to get to Duncan, but once there it was a simple matter of cast those 5 skills and sit and wait. Being a War all I could do was watch as my attacks rebounded 2 fold on my sending my monk over the edge.
This was not a fun boss fight, though not terribly hard, it was not what brings me back to playing GW.
Bring back some fun boss fights PLEASE!!
Hanok Odbrook
Crom really hits the nail here. With each campaign we have seen more and more reliance on difficulty based around character and team builds rather than actual player skill.
Tobasco is right, no matter how many people here want to flame him for it. I would hazard a guess that at least 95% (if not more) of the build and skill nerfs since Prophecies went live has been because of exploits and not because of player skill. The spirit spamming nerf is a perfect example. It didn't matter how skilled your team was - it was very difficult if not impossible to beat a spirit spamming team because of an exploit of the system. Look at the Hero Battles now. I haven't watched too many battles or played a lot there lately, but I think it's safe to say that everyone plays the current team flavor of the week because of the exploits that the build and skill combinations work upon. The only player skill involved is how well you play that build compared to your opponent at that particular time.
Let me get back on to my soap box for a moment here. No matter what anyone wants to say or believe, a Death Penalty in any game is an artificial way to increase difficulty of a creature or an area, and far too many times, game developers rely on this system as a way to increase the challenge or length of time an area takes to complete in their games. No one here can disagree with the fact that fighting the end-boss in a dungeon is exponentially more difficult with -60% DP than with a +10% MB. It doesn't matter how skilled you are, you will have a harder time defeating the boss simply because of an artificial game mechanic. But wait!! Now we have the Powerstone of Courage which not only eliminates the DP, but throws on the max MB on top of that. Really, come on – talk about holding a player's hand here. Quite frankly, I would rather do away with the Powerstone and the DP and face an area that challenges my skill at handling my chosen build and team rather than forcing artificial limits to increase the difficulty or length of a battle.
Let's take a look at the many, many messages here about changing build. You can't SHOUT IT ANY LOUDER when a player says that they had difficulty or outright couldn't get past a creature or an area until they CHANGED their BUILD. They didn't necessarily change their tactics, and I don't think any of us here can claim they suddenly got more skilled against the creature or area, but they simply found an exploit in the system that allowed them to have an easier time getting past the roadblock. One other poster here challenged Tobasco to point to a specific example where the right build outweighed player skill. I offer up Boreas Seabed as the shining example of the right build replacing player skill to complete an area.
Let me preface this by saying I have played this game since the final original beta weekend. I have 22 PvE characters on two accounts and 4-6 PvP characters at any given time. I have completed Prophecies with two characters and Factions with five characters, two of which are nearing completion of Prophecies with two more Nightfall characters close behind who will be going to Factions next. I don't consider myself one of the most skilled players in this game, but I do think I have learned a thing or two over the last three years. However, my skill as a player, nor any of the tactics I have learned from playing two campaigns (up to the point I reached Boreas), allowed me to complete this mission at all, let alone get the Master's level until I changed the build of the team I was using. After that, I found this mission the easiest to complete out of all the mainland missions in the game. I didn't suddenly become more skilled at playing the game overnight, nor had my skill level increased upon beating the mission. I simply found the exploit that allowed the toughest mission for me to become the easiest – and my skill did not improve one whit for it.
If we truly want to see player skill become the dominate factor in this game, then we need to have challenges that test our skill and not just the builds we have chosen to play. Magni's tournament is a good example of a build specific quest – you have the right build and cakewalk; wrong build = forget about it. In a hard core game where time played is nearly as important as skill and builds chosen, experimenting with different builds and skills would be an acceptable option. But in a game that was supposed to be designed for a casual player, Magni's tournament is not acceptable as is. My W/Mo (Hammer Warrior with Smiting Skills) is my build of choice for this character, because that is WHO THAT CHARACTER IS. He is not a W/Me, he is not a W/N, he is not a W/Rt, he is a Smiting Hammer Warrior because that is how I have chosen to ROLE-PLAY this particular character. This is how I have fun playing this character. I do not have fun playing him as anything else, and encountering a creature, area, mission, or quest that does not allow me to play him as such – not because of my lack of skill at playing him, but simply because the build itself is not suited to the roadblock is a failure of the devs to make a true challenge for this character.
Going back to Cantha for a moment, “The Captured Son” quest is a good example of challenging a player without creating an artificial environment to increase the difficulty of the quest or area. Now when I first attempted this quest, I was completely frustrated at the fact that the typical pulling techniques that are even taught in the very first mission of Factions did not work because half of the mob aggroed and wiped my party. I tried it a second time, being more cautious of the aggro and trying a more refined pulling of the mob – damn, party wipe again. Needless to say, I hated this quest with a passion, and suffered many more party wipes before I finally CHANGED my TACTICS and refined the pulling and aggroing even more until I was able to separate the mob enough to pick them off one by one. No where, at any time, was I forced by this quest to change the builds I was playing – I simply learned better tactics and became a more skilled player as a result. Now, this has become one of my favorite quests, because it offers a true challenge and tests my skills as a player with each of my 22 different PvE characters. I didn't pick primary/secondary professions for any of these characters because I thought that they would make the game easier or a particular combo would be necessary to get through a particular part of the game, but I chose them because I felt that the particular combo and choice of skills would make that character the most FUN TO PLAY.
This is the way the game should be designed. We have all these choices of professions and skills, and part of a Role-Playing game is designing a fun character to play around them. The game should then challenge our skills at playing that exact character, and not force us into changing our choices because a proper challenge or balance could not be found any other way. In order to do that, the game must negate build choice and focus on strategy, tactics, and teamwork. Finding the right build should never be the solution – working with the build you have chosen within the team you are with and using the tactics you were taught and have learned is the proper solution to creating a challenge for players, no matter what your skill level is or the character you have decided to role-play. More and more, I see GW getting away from the things that made this a damn fun game to play, and I hope GW2 doesn't continue this trend. I sincerely hope that GW2 takes us back to the game's roots where it isn't the “build/favor of the week” that matters, but our ability to play the character profession we have chosen. I would truly like to see GW2 designed without a DP first and foremost so the devs don't have that artificial mechanic to rely on when creating a challenge for the player. I offer this to you Anet – challenge my ability to play this game, don't challenge my character's chosen profession or its skills; challenge my use of those skills, but don't challenge my choice of the character I want to Role-Play. I will become a better skilled player for this, and GW will become a better game as a result.
Hanok Odbrook
Real Millennium Group Guild
Truth * Knowledge * Peace
Tobasco is right, no matter how many people here want to flame him for it. I would hazard a guess that at least 95% (if not more) of the build and skill nerfs since Prophecies went live has been because of exploits and not because of player skill. The spirit spamming nerf is a perfect example. It didn't matter how skilled your team was - it was very difficult if not impossible to beat a spirit spamming team because of an exploit of the system. Look at the Hero Battles now. I haven't watched too many battles or played a lot there lately, but I think it's safe to say that everyone plays the current team flavor of the week because of the exploits that the build and skill combinations work upon. The only player skill involved is how well you play that build compared to your opponent at that particular time.
Let me get back on to my soap box for a moment here. No matter what anyone wants to say or believe, a Death Penalty in any game is an artificial way to increase difficulty of a creature or an area, and far too many times, game developers rely on this system as a way to increase the challenge or length of time an area takes to complete in their games. No one here can disagree with the fact that fighting the end-boss in a dungeon is exponentially more difficult with -60% DP than with a +10% MB. It doesn't matter how skilled you are, you will have a harder time defeating the boss simply because of an artificial game mechanic. But wait!! Now we have the Powerstone of Courage which not only eliminates the DP, but throws on the max MB on top of that. Really, come on – talk about holding a player's hand here. Quite frankly, I would rather do away with the Powerstone and the DP and face an area that challenges my skill at handling my chosen build and team rather than forcing artificial limits to increase the difficulty or length of a battle.
Let's take a look at the many, many messages here about changing build. You can't SHOUT IT ANY LOUDER when a player says that they had difficulty or outright couldn't get past a creature or an area until they CHANGED their BUILD. They didn't necessarily change their tactics, and I don't think any of us here can claim they suddenly got more skilled against the creature or area, but they simply found an exploit in the system that allowed them to have an easier time getting past the roadblock. One other poster here challenged Tobasco to point to a specific example where the right build outweighed player skill. I offer up Boreas Seabed as the shining example of the right build replacing player skill to complete an area.
Let me preface this by saying I have played this game since the final original beta weekend. I have 22 PvE characters on two accounts and 4-6 PvP characters at any given time. I have completed Prophecies with two characters and Factions with five characters, two of which are nearing completion of Prophecies with two more Nightfall characters close behind who will be going to Factions next. I don't consider myself one of the most skilled players in this game, but I do think I have learned a thing or two over the last three years. However, my skill as a player, nor any of the tactics I have learned from playing two campaigns (up to the point I reached Boreas), allowed me to complete this mission at all, let alone get the Master's level until I changed the build of the team I was using. After that, I found this mission the easiest to complete out of all the mainland missions in the game. I didn't suddenly become more skilled at playing the game overnight, nor had my skill level increased upon beating the mission. I simply found the exploit that allowed the toughest mission for me to become the easiest – and my skill did not improve one whit for it.
If we truly want to see player skill become the dominate factor in this game, then we need to have challenges that test our skill and not just the builds we have chosen to play. Magni's tournament is a good example of a build specific quest – you have the right build and cakewalk; wrong build = forget about it. In a hard core game where time played is nearly as important as skill and builds chosen, experimenting with different builds and skills would be an acceptable option. But in a game that was supposed to be designed for a casual player, Magni's tournament is not acceptable as is. My W/Mo (Hammer Warrior with Smiting Skills) is my build of choice for this character, because that is WHO THAT CHARACTER IS. He is not a W/Me, he is not a W/N, he is not a W/Rt, he is a Smiting Hammer Warrior because that is how I have chosen to ROLE-PLAY this particular character. This is how I have fun playing this character. I do not have fun playing him as anything else, and encountering a creature, area, mission, or quest that does not allow me to play him as such – not because of my lack of skill at playing him, but simply because the build itself is not suited to the roadblock is a failure of the devs to make a true challenge for this character.
Going back to Cantha for a moment, “The Captured Son” quest is a good example of challenging a player without creating an artificial environment to increase the difficulty of the quest or area. Now when I first attempted this quest, I was completely frustrated at the fact that the typical pulling techniques that are even taught in the very first mission of Factions did not work because half of the mob aggroed and wiped my party. I tried it a second time, being more cautious of the aggro and trying a more refined pulling of the mob – damn, party wipe again. Needless to say, I hated this quest with a passion, and suffered many more party wipes before I finally CHANGED my TACTICS and refined the pulling and aggroing even more until I was able to separate the mob enough to pick them off one by one. No where, at any time, was I forced by this quest to change the builds I was playing – I simply learned better tactics and became a more skilled player as a result. Now, this has become one of my favorite quests, because it offers a true challenge and tests my skills as a player with each of my 22 different PvE characters. I didn't pick primary/secondary professions for any of these characters because I thought that they would make the game easier or a particular combo would be necessary to get through a particular part of the game, but I chose them because I felt that the particular combo and choice of skills would make that character the most FUN TO PLAY.
This is the way the game should be designed. We have all these choices of professions and skills, and part of a Role-Playing game is designing a fun character to play around them. The game should then challenge our skills at playing that exact character, and not force us into changing our choices because a proper challenge or balance could not be found any other way. In order to do that, the game must negate build choice and focus on strategy, tactics, and teamwork. Finding the right build should never be the solution – working with the build you have chosen within the team you are with and using the tactics you were taught and have learned is the proper solution to creating a challenge for players, no matter what your skill level is or the character you have decided to role-play. More and more, I see GW getting away from the things that made this a damn fun game to play, and I hope GW2 doesn't continue this trend. I sincerely hope that GW2 takes us back to the game's roots where it isn't the “build/favor of the week” that matters, but our ability to play the character profession we have chosen. I would truly like to see GW2 designed without a DP first and foremost so the devs don't have that artificial mechanic to rely on when creating a challenge for the player. I offer this to you Anet – challenge my ability to play this game, don't challenge my character's chosen profession or its skills; challenge my use of those skills, but don't challenge my choice of the character I want to Role-Play. I will become a better skilled player for this, and GW will become a better game as a result.
Hanok Odbrook
Real Millennium Group Guild
Truth * Knowledge * Peace
erfweiss
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mineria
Did the worm without using the barrels.
Hero mesmer interrupts ftw.
You know, it is possible to control your hero skills manually.
I did the same thing with my paragon. I read after completing the mission that the barrels break the same. I just kept hacking away. Zho helped out a bit. Talon (suprisingly) was helpful with deep wound (to drop the hp).
Hero mesmer interrupts ftw.
You know, it is possible to control your hero skills manually.
I did the same thing with my paragon. I read after completing the mission that the barrels break the same. I just kept hacking away. Zho helped out a bit. Talon (suprisingly) was helpful with deep wound (to drop the hp).
Cobalt
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crom The Pale
Classic example of a quiter.
Ive cleared Slavers Exile with Hero/hench at 60%dp
Ive cleared Shards of Orr with 30%dp.
Mob camping at the res shrine? Pull them off it!
Cant stop them from ressing? Kill priest and run, they tend to chase rather than res. Keep them buisy long enough and no corpse to res.
Effort, that is what this game requires. If your party can not do any of the above then leave and change your party/skill bars.
If your mad that it takes you an hour and several party wipes to complete a dungeon while others do the same dungeon in 20min with 0 deaths what does that tell you? I have tried several ways none of which work, not even close;
I have tried with a;
Prot/condition removal Hero monk Elite build
Paragon Elite Build
Rit SS Elite Build
Two monk henches
Devona
Cynn
Got wiped by the first mob fast!
Next I tried;
Smite Monk hero Elite build
Ranger hero interrupt Elite build
Mes hero interrupt Elite build
Two monk henches
Devona
Cynn
Made it past the first group with 3 in the team left standing, then got wiped by the second mob two times in a row, gave up. Once you get over -14DP in there you might as well pack it in.
They are only level 24 casters yet they seem to have level 30 warrior armor or every one of them spams elite wards constantly thus this team slowed them down some but in no way had enough damage to dispatch them in a timely manner.
Plus the priests and clerics seem to have infinite energy, and apparently are difficult to interrupt. So if you don't get them first every time you can't kill anything. You also can't pull and kill a couple and run away to try and cut their numbers down as it seems they all have res ability.
Then I tried this team to see if I could up the team's damage output and survivability;
Dunkro set up as Elite healer/condidtion removal
Ele fire Hero with Elite searing Build
Mes hero with interrupt Elite build
Two monk henches
Devona
interrupt ranger hench.
Got wiped by the first mob, it was not even a close battle.
I agree with adapting and using different builds and all that, it is how I H&H my way all the way through Nightfall, but this is asinine. You should not have to treat/adapt to random mob encounters like they were end game elite boss mobs, it is mass overkill.
If anyone says they can go through the Shards of Orr with henches or henches/heroes then I say they are full of it or they have found a way to cheat. Hell I bet if we could see the data less than 10% of the player base that has made it that far still has not made it through there or quit trying.
It is one thing to present some of the elite player base with a challenge such as this but it is completely idiotic to have the main quest force you to go through this nonsense to finish the game in which case the majority will not.
The rule of thumb for the game designer should be if you the designer can't grab your pick of seven henches and make it through an area then it needs to be nerfed or put in hardmode only, that is just common sense. There is no way you are even getting past the first mob in Shards of Orr with just henches!
Ive cleared Slavers Exile with Hero/hench at 60%dp
Ive cleared Shards of Orr with 30%dp.
Mob camping at the res shrine? Pull them off it!
Cant stop them from ressing? Kill priest and run, they tend to chase rather than res. Keep them buisy long enough and no corpse to res.
Effort, that is what this game requires. If your party can not do any of the above then leave and change your party/skill bars.
If your mad that it takes you an hour and several party wipes to complete a dungeon while others do the same dungeon in 20min with 0 deaths what does that tell you? I have tried several ways none of which work, not even close;
I have tried with a;
Prot/condition removal Hero monk Elite build
Paragon Elite Build
Rit SS Elite Build
Two monk henches
Devona
Cynn
Got wiped by the first mob fast!
Next I tried;
Smite Monk hero Elite build
Ranger hero interrupt Elite build
Mes hero interrupt Elite build
Two monk henches
Devona
Cynn
Made it past the first group with 3 in the team left standing, then got wiped by the second mob two times in a row, gave up. Once you get over -14DP in there you might as well pack it in.
They are only level 24 casters yet they seem to have level 30 warrior armor or every one of them spams elite wards constantly thus this team slowed them down some but in no way had enough damage to dispatch them in a timely manner.
Plus the priests and clerics seem to have infinite energy, and apparently are difficult to interrupt. So if you don't get them first every time you can't kill anything. You also can't pull and kill a couple and run away to try and cut their numbers down as it seems they all have res ability.
Then I tried this team to see if I could up the team's damage output and survivability;
Dunkro set up as Elite healer/condidtion removal
Ele fire Hero with Elite searing Build
Mes hero with interrupt Elite build
Two monk henches
Devona
interrupt ranger hench.
Got wiped by the first mob, it was not even a close battle.
I agree with adapting and using different builds and all that, it is how I H&H my way all the way through Nightfall, but this is asinine. You should not have to treat/adapt to random mob encounters like they were end game elite boss mobs, it is mass overkill.
If anyone says they can go through the Shards of Orr with henches or henches/heroes then I say they are full of it or they have found a way to cheat. Hell I bet if we could see the data less than 10% of the player base that has made it that far still has not made it through there or quit trying.
It is one thing to present some of the elite player base with a challenge such as this but it is completely idiotic to have the main quest force you to go through this nonsense to finish the game in which case the majority will not.
The rule of thumb for the game designer should be if you the designer can't grab your pick of seven henches and make it through an area then it needs to be nerfed or put in hardmode only, that is just common sense. There is no way you are even getting past the first mob in Shards of Orr with just henches!
tuna-fish_sushi
Hmm well I got to Gadds encampment through shards of orr and didnt know it was a trouble spot, I'll admit my party did wipe twice before i could get through it but its fully possible. I was running 2 LoD monk heroes, P/W Singer for even more defense and i was a warder, Henchmen do enough damage on their own.
Burst Cancel
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanok Odbrook
I offer up Boreas Seabed as the shining example of the right build replacing player skill to complete an area.
Bad example. Personal experience is that build doesn't matter in that mission. Trying to build for this mission in HM with H/H got me killed. I beat it easily with positioning; build was almost totally irrelevant.
I submit that, in many supposed example of areas "requiring" a build, what's really happening is that the players simply aren't skilled enough to win with a bad build. With the exception of superbosses like Shiro, Mallyx, Duncan, etc., there's really not much you are actually required to build for.
I submit that, in many supposed example of areas "requiring" a build, what's really happening is that the players simply aren't skilled enough to win with a bad build. With the exception of superbosses like Shiro, Mallyx, Duncan, etc., there's really not much you are actually required to build for.
Crom The Pale
Here is a brief run down of my time in Slavers Exile fighting duncan the Black.
It will give you some idea of what I mean when I say effort gets results to a point but builds win in the end.
My first attempt at Duncan resulted in many party wipes, but I was able to clear every monster from the dungeon, except Duncan himself. I simply was lacking the 2-4 mandatory skills needed to kill him.
So I changed my party set up and tried again, only problem was that while I now had the right skills to kill Duncan, I didn't have the right build to get to him. Infact only 4min into the map, not even past the res shrine and at 60%dp.
[IMG][/IMG]
So then I went to work on pulling the mobs off of the res shrine and taking out foes one by one. Eventually I was able to clear the shrine and with the help of 4 PowerStones I was finnaly able to reach Duncan the black, who died rather simply and easily vs a buld custom made to kill him.
[IMG][/IMG]
I like a challange, I am willing to put in an effort and even change my builds as needed. But I felt rather cheated at the end of this fight. It was frustrating and not fun.
A challenge does not always = difficulty. A challenge may require thought or stubornly pounding ahead, but it does not have to mean you can only win with a very limited maner of play.
FYI - I completely agree that dp has no real place in this game, however I have never ran into a quest/mission/dungeon where dp has prevented me from completeing it, save hard mode whick auto kicks a party at 60%dp.
It will give you some idea of what I mean when I say effort gets results to a point but builds win in the end.
My first attempt at Duncan resulted in many party wipes, but I was able to clear every monster from the dungeon, except Duncan himself. I simply was lacking the 2-4 mandatory skills needed to kill him.
So I changed my party set up and tried again, only problem was that while I now had the right skills to kill Duncan, I didn't have the right build to get to him. Infact only 4min into the map, not even past the res shrine and at 60%dp.
[IMG][/IMG]
So then I went to work on pulling the mobs off of the res shrine and taking out foes one by one. Eventually I was able to clear the shrine and with the help of 4 PowerStones I was finnaly able to reach Duncan the black, who died rather simply and easily vs a buld custom made to kill him.
[IMG][/IMG]
I like a challange, I am willing to put in an effort and even change my builds as needed. But I felt rather cheated at the end of this fight. It was frustrating and not fun.
A challenge does not always = difficulty. A challenge may require thought or stubornly pounding ahead, but it does not have to mean you can only win with a very limited maner of play.
FYI - I completely agree that dp has no real place in this game, however I have never ran into a quest/mission/dungeon where dp has prevented me from completeing it, save hard mode whick auto kicks a party at 60%dp.
Hanok Odbrook
Quote:
Originally Posted by Burst Cancel
Bad example. Personal experience is that build doesn't matter in that mission. Trying to build for this mission in HM with H/H got me killed. I beat it easily with positioning; build was almost totally irrelevant.
I submit that, in many supposed example of areas "requiring" a build, what's really happening is that the players simply aren't skilled enough to win with a bad build. With the exception of superbosses like Shiro, Mallyx, Duncan, etc., there's really not much you are actually required to build for. Well, first of all, HM and the Elite mishes are completely different animals, as is PvP. I consider these areas outside the normal content of the campaigns. When I refer to adjustments needed to the game, it is strictly the normal mode areas in each campaign accessible simply by entering a portal or accepting a quest that unlocks the area (Sorrow's Furnace and Dungeons are areas I consider part of the normal content as such; Urgoz's, FoW, UW, etc. are "extra content").
Second of all, I refer to Boreas back in the day when there were no hench controls nor heroes. Unless you went with a full human party, you couldn't get past this mission with positioning, because you couldn't obtain a position outside of Zu Hanuku's range and still defeat it in time to take the Master's reward. I am sure there were exceptions to this rule - there always are, but my own experience, and researching that of many other players during that time proved to me that you needed an interrupt build to be successful. Once the Heroes came along, indeed my own character's build worked without needing any changes because I now had access to the proper mechanics and Hero builds able to defeat Zu Hanuku on a solo run of the mission. Again, my tactics never changed - just the builds, and I went from failure to success with no change in my skill as a player.
You first say that a build was totally irrelevant, then infer that a player's skill is not enough to overcome a bad build against certain bosses, therefore I take this that builds actually are not irrelevant, but a major part of being able to win this game (if I misunderstood, then I apologize). I would also add Magni to this pile - my hammer warrior has never been able to get 216 damage with Irresistable Blow (both in Ursan and Human form), no matter how pumped up the Hammer Master Attribute was along with damage increasing buffs. This is just an example of an artificially overpowered boss who only presents a challenge because of the artificial increase of his offensive capabilities. Again, just reading through the myriad of posts here and on other similar threads just proves that ultimately, the choice or changing of build ends up being more of a deciding factor than actual player skill. Originally, that may not have been true - I completed Proph with the first two characters I created and never really had to change their builds much - any changes were really just tests to see how much better I liked one skill over another. Things began to change in Factions as we saw a new mission mechanic, and much more offensively powered mobs. Now character builds began to come into play, but as I am sure any Assassin could tell you (I know from personal experience), team builds were of the utmost importance in getting those Master's titles. I haven't experienced this as much in Nightfall, but I have not yet entered the higher end areas as of yet. However, the reliance on the "right" build has just exploded IMO in EotN.
As a test, I changed my W/Mo to a W/Rt and used some spirits to see how far I could get in the tourney. Let me tell you, the results are night and day - breazing through opponents that I simply could not beat with my tried and true build, and giving Magni a run for his money several times, unlike my previous efforts which didn't get past his second hit on my character. Again, I didn't suddenly become a better player after I changed my character, I simply found a build that had a better chance in the tournament. Maybe I'm wrong and I'm playing the wrong game, but I would rather my skills as a player be challenged rather than my skills at picking the right professions and skill set for a character.
As a side note to Crom - at least I have one more believer, and agree that though limiting, -60% never ended up stopping me unless I quit just from having to relieve some of my aggravation first. Of all the things Auto Assault did wrong, the one right thing I found with the game was it's lack of a Death Penalty. If not for some of the mechanics, and the monthly fee, I think AA would have been the first game to seriously challenge my GW playing time. To anyone else who might agree about the DP thing, pick up the November 2007 issue of PC Gamer. Dev Chris Taylor mentions the issue in an editorial. This had also come up in a recent issue of Games For Windows in the "Infinite Servers" article, and I belive Editor Jeff Green made a comment about DP in games in an issue shortly after Prey came out (an FPS that doesn't have any penalty for death or otherwise failing miserably).
Hanok Odbrook
Real Millennium Group Guild
Truth * Knowledge * Peace
PS - Upon further thought, one can argue that Magni's high output of damage can be an inherent trait of the Norn race. This in and of itself would not be a bad thing, and is one of the changes I would like to see carried out through the game to give further distinction among races than a simple skin change. However, that would mean Jora should then carry these inherent bonuses as one of our Heroes. Thus far, I don't see anything different about Jora other than the skin the Anet artists created for her. I can swap her out for Koss or Goren with the same build and see not discernable difference. Here we have an opportunity to give players something new to play with, in addition to Elite Norn Skills, and we fall short - the Devs make a set of rules for the player and/or Heroes, then breaks those rules to artificially create a challenge or more difficult area or creature. All Norn have the ability to transform themselves, and we go on a whole quest arc to supposedly give back to Jora this ability. Successful completion should then give this Hero the use of Ursan Blessing, but it does not, along with the disappoint of not seeing our characters transform when using these Elites (as the Dervish Elites do), this just makes no sense to me, and I view it as failure on Anet's part to fully see through a new concept or idea they have created.
I submit that, in many supposed example of areas "requiring" a build, what's really happening is that the players simply aren't skilled enough to win with a bad build. With the exception of superbosses like Shiro, Mallyx, Duncan, etc., there's really not much you are actually required to build for. Well, first of all, HM and the Elite mishes are completely different animals, as is PvP. I consider these areas outside the normal content of the campaigns. When I refer to adjustments needed to the game, it is strictly the normal mode areas in each campaign accessible simply by entering a portal or accepting a quest that unlocks the area (Sorrow's Furnace and Dungeons are areas I consider part of the normal content as such; Urgoz's, FoW, UW, etc. are "extra content").
Second of all, I refer to Boreas back in the day when there were no hench controls nor heroes. Unless you went with a full human party, you couldn't get past this mission with positioning, because you couldn't obtain a position outside of Zu Hanuku's range and still defeat it in time to take the Master's reward. I am sure there were exceptions to this rule - there always are, but my own experience, and researching that of many other players during that time proved to me that you needed an interrupt build to be successful. Once the Heroes came along, indeed my own character's build worked without needing any changes because I now had access to the proper mechanics and Hero builds able to defeat Zu Hanuku on a solo run of the mission. Again, my tactics never changed - just the builds, and I went from failure to success with no change in my skill as a player.
You first say that a build was totally irrelevant, then infer that a player's skill is not enough to overcome a bad build against certain bosses, therefore I take this that builds actually are not irrelevant, but a major part of being able to win this game (if I misunderstood, then I apologize). I would also add Magni to this pile - my hammer warrior has never been able to get 216 damage with Irresistable Blow (both in Ursan and Human form), no matter how pumped up the Hammer Master Attribute was along with damage increasing buffs. This is just an example of an artificially overpowered boss who only presents a challenge because of the artificial increase of his offensive capabilities. Again, just reading through the myriad of posts here and on other similar threads just proves that ultimately, the choice or changing of build ends up being more of a deciding factor than actual player skill. Originally, that may not have been true - I completed Proph with the first two characters I created and never really had to change their builds much - any changes were really just tests to see how much better I liked one skill over another. Things began to change in Factions as we saw a new mission mechanic, and much more offensively powered mobs. Now character builds began to come into play, but as I am sure any Assassin could tell you (I know from personal experience), team builds were of the utmost importance in getting those Master's titles. I haven't experienced this as much in Nightfall, but I have not yet entered the higher end areas as of yet. However, the reliance on the "right" build has just exploded IMO in EotN.
As a test, I changed my W/Mo to a W/Rt and used some spirits to see how far I could get in the tourney. Let me tell you, the results are night and day - breazing through opponents that I simply could not beat with my tried and true build, and giving Magni a run for his money several times, unlike my previous efforts which didn't get past his second hit on my character. Again, I didn't suddenly become a better player after I changed my character, I simply found a build that had a better chance in the tournament. Maybe I'm wrong and I'm playing the wrong game, but I would rather my skills as a player be challenged rather than my skills at picking the right professions and skill set for a character.
As a side note to Crom - at least I have one more believer, and agree that though limiting, -60% never ended up stopping me unless I quit just from having to relieve some of my aggravation first. Of all the things Auto Assault did wrong, the one right thing I found with the game was it's lack of a Death Penalty. If not for some of the mechanics, and the monthly fee, I think AA would have been the first game to seriously challenge my GW playing time. To anyone else who might agree about the DP thing, pick up the November 2007 issue of PC Gamer. Dev Chris Taylor mentions the issue in an editorial. This had also come up in a recent issue of Games For Windows in the "Infinite Servers" article, and I belive Editor Jeff Green made a comment about DP in games in an issue shortly after Prey came out (an FPS that doesn't have any penalty for death or otherwise failing miserably).
Hanok Odbrook
Real Millennium Group Guild
Truth * Knowledge * Peace
PS - Upon further thought, one can argue that Magni's high output of damage can be an inherent trait of the Norn race. This in and of itself would not be a bad thing, and is one of the changes I would like to see carried out through the game to give further distinction among races than a simple skin change. However, that would mean Jora should then carry these inherent bonuses as one of our Heroes. Thus far, I don't see anything different about Jora other than the skin the Anet artists created for her. I can swap her out for Koss or Goren with the same build and see not discernable difference. Here we have an opportunity to give players something new to play with, in addition to Elite Norn Skills, and we fall short - the Devs make a set of rules for the player and/or Heroes, then breaks those rules to artificially create a challenge or more difficult area or creature. All Norn have the ability to transform themselves, and we go on a whole quest arc to supposedly give back to Jora this ability. Successful completion should then give this Hero the use of Ursan Blessing, but it does not, along with the disappoint of not seeing our characters transform when using these Elites (as the Dervish Elites do), this just makes no sense to me, and I view it as failure on Anet's part to fully see through a new concept or idea they have created.
Burst Cancel
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanok Odbrook
Quote: Originally Posted by Hanok Odbrook Second of all, I refer to Boreas back in the day when there were no hench controls nor heroes. Unless you went with a full human party, you couldn't get past this mission with positioning, because you couldn't obtain a position outside of Zu Hanuku's range and still defeat it in time to take the Master's reward. I am sure there were exceptions to this rule - there always are, but my own experience, and researching that of many other players during that time proved to me that you needed an interrupt build to be successful. Once the Heroes came along, indeed my own character's build worked without needing any changes because I now had access to the proper mechanics and Hero builds able to defeat Zu Hanuku on a solo run of the mission. Again, my tactics never changed - just the builds, and I went from failure to success with no change in my skill as a player. First of all, the Kraken is the trivial part of the mission. It takes a single recyclable interrupt to beat him - a single skill out of your entire party. You don't need Broadhead Arrow.
Second of all, there's no point talking about the lack of hero controls, because that argument is no longer applicable. The lack of hero controls is directly attributable to the fact that GW was originally expected to be played with other players. The dev team didn't anticipate that so many players would use henchway the entire game, and as such did not build in the control mechanics for that. Once they realized what was actually going on, heroes and their controls were implemented.
Third of all, if you had played the game with other players, build again becomes irrelevant.
Quote: Originally Posted by Hanok Odbrook
You first say that a build was totally irrelevant, then infer that a player's skill is not enough to overcome a bad build against certain bosses, therefore I take this that builds actually are not irrelevant, but a major part of being able to win this game (if I misunderstood, then I apologize).
You're mixing my argument. Build was almost totally irrelevant in HM Boreas. My second assertion, applied to the game in general, doesn't state that build is irrelevant; if it was, there would be no such thing as 'bad' builds or 'good' builds, and my argument wouldn't even be self-consistent.
My second assertion is directed to your main argument of David vs. Goliath, as well as your prior-mentioned hypothetical situations where 'weaker' builds still have a chance if you play well. My point is that weaker builds already have a chance in the current GW, but most people aren't skilled enough to see that chance.
Good builds make things easier by definition - that's why they're good builds. That doesn't at all mean that you can't win with a bad build, if you're good enough. And frankly, there's nothing wrong with a system like that - you are imagining a problem where one doesn't exist, or at the very least, using a few specific examples to generalize across the entire game (i.e., mountain out of molehills).
Quote:
Originally Posted by TabascoSauce
PvP knowledge relating to PvE challenges mostly comes down to "Oh, that mob is using these skills, so this is the counter to assure my victory", because that is what they learn in PvP - notice that noone in the GW PvP universe has said "Ok, we need to raise our skills to counter some new Eurohex variant" - they say "We need to adapt our build to beat the Eurohex variant". Skill plays a role in the game, but honest GW "athletes" with the wrong build will lose to supposed "cheating noob scrubs".
When a good team loses to a gimmick, the very first thing they ask is, "Can we beat them again with our existing build by simply playing better?" Only then do they ask, "Should we modify our build just in case we meet them again?" A good team will discuss these questions, even if they don't make any changes in the end. Only bad teams hit Enter Battle again without thinking.My second assertion is directed to your main argument of David vs. Goliath, as well as your prior-mentioned hypothetical situations where 'weaker' builds still have a chance if you play well. My point is that weaker builds already have a chance in the current GW, but most people aren't skilled enough to see that chance.
Good builds make things easier by definition - that's why they're good builds. That doesn't at all mean that you can't win with a bad build, if you're good enough. And frankly, there's nothing wrong with a system like that - you are imagining a problem where one doesn't exist, or at the very least, using a few specific examples to generalize across the entire game (i.e., mountain out of molehills).
Quote:
PvP demands player skill, just not in the arenas you're familiar with.|
Originally Posted by Hanok Odbrook
*snip*
Magni is a minigame that is specifically designed to test your ability to analyze your opponent's skills and produce a counter. The fact that success depends the most on build is exactly the intent of the game in this instance. Even so, there are several ways to beat him - some people use condition overload, others use 'punishment' skills like Ripostes, Spoil Victor, etc. combined with shutdown or damage mitigation (blinds, anti-melee hexes, wards, prots, etc.)
Your argument essentially discounts the dimension of build-making that GW allows people to do. Part of the difficulty in this game is exactly figuring out what build to use. What ruins it is, ironically, sharing of information. If no one shared their builds for beating particular areas, each player would have to figure it out on their own, and the entire process of 'figuring it out' becomes an aspect of difficulty in and of itself. The reason a lot of people complain about cookie-cutter in GW today is because you don't have to do any of the work to develop the build - you just pull something off of the forums or the wiki that's already been figured out and tested, and then win. If people could win with literally any build, any time, there wouldn't be any compelling reason to actually figure out all of the skills, and no reason for the designers to include so many skills. You might as well just give each class a static set of abilities (similar to Diablo 2) for all their skills would actually matter. TabascoSauce
Thank you, Crom and Hanok. I really appreciate your posts, and honestly both of you are extending the premise that equipped "skills" > player skill in ways that I would not have thought to do.
I have always focused on the resistance I receive. I was really curious about all the quick leaps from what I am saying to the "defensive" rebuttals. Mostly, they fall into the same line - "PvP shows you wrong" followed quickly by "You do not understand the game" This is where things get nasty, because PvP players seem to have a set of beliefs about GW PvP that involve their own ego and/or superiority to other players. To acknowledge that equipped skills > player skill would be agreeing that their advantage is based on puny book-knowledge and not some manly "playa mad skillz". PvP knowledge relating to PvE challenges mostly comes down to "Oh, that mob is using these skills, so this is the counter to assure my victory", because that is what they learn in PvP - notice that noone in the GW PvP universe has said "Ok, we need to raise our skills to counter some new Eurohex variant" - they say "We need to adapt our build to beat the Eurohex variant". Skill plays a role in the game, but honest GW "athletes" with the wrong build will lose to supposed "cheating noob scrubs". PvP presents an out-of-game challenge where you must account not only for your playstyle, but also the playstyle of your opponents - the metagame. Everyone agrees that player skill has a role in the game, but the difference in game knowledge that is not simply reflexive skill gained from accounting for the metagame allows you to spot for specific weaknesses and counter with the appropriate skills. So yeah, if you get good at PvP then you must learn to make good builds, or understand how good builds work. Does PvE give you the same experience? They want to say "no", and in a way I must agree with them - because Spoil Victor is all that is required to beat Cyndr. You can be at 60% DP, and the game keeps spitting you back out to face him indefinitely until SV wears it down. That is a different experience that PvP. But to make blanket statements that every PvP player is better than every PvE player is sheer hubris, and plain wrong. That is why I know I can always hit them where it hurts by implying that they as PvP players are so invested in the game that they need to use it as an achievement engine to make themselves feel better. It is a dirty trick, and a low blow, but unfortunately it works every time. But I can state that the "more intense" experience of PvP will teach you to analyze builds and come up with counters faster than PvE, maybe a good analogy would be to throw a child into the water and say "lrn2swim!" But you know, everyone has to have something they can crow about. The worst part about all this is Hanok's wish to roleplay. If he wants to have a hammer warrior, then he is absolutely right - there are challenges in this game that he would not be able to defeat because of the constraints of his character. That, is a real shame, considering the acronym used for this game is CORPG. Thanks! TabascoSauce
agrios
I know the feeling,
Ive got beat so badly in frostmaw's that I had to /resign cos of I simply couldnt progress with 60% DP at some point. That made me very angry.. But I know its just a matter of switching builds and strategy.
Crom The Pale
I will agree that 'any' build should not be able to win everywhere in GW. But you should also agree that a sound build that works in most all areas should not be completely useless once you enter 1 or 2 isolated zones.
A simple example of this would be a warrior that did not have any condition removal. Most places in this game he would still be viable, however in many of the dungeons or even missions like D;Alessio Seaboard he would face massive amounts of blind and be rendered useless unless a monk chose to remove this condition. Granted its an easy fix to change your build and I've done so many many times. I agree that even with a bad build you should be able to win if you have enough skill, but when the lack of one or two skills makes it impossible to win the game has a flaw that must be adressed. In my previous example a blind war can still block foes and absorb damage to protect the other chars. The question I have is what about 'fun' builds? I have played every profession and every combination of every profession and there are many builds that are fun to play but could never hope to work in some areas of the game. War/rangers with pets can be fun but overall inefective in most areas. Monks using smiting skills, Mesmers with illusionary weapons. There are a vast number of skills in this game that are simply unuseable do to the nature of the game. Some used to work then got nerfed while others simply never worked at all. We may have 1000 skills to pick from but only 100 that can be used to complete the game. That is a significant problem.
Onarik Amrak
Quote:
Originally Posted by agrios
I know the feeling,
Ive got beat so badly in frostmaw's that I had to /resign cos of I simply couldnt progress with 60% DP at some point. That made me very angry.. But I know its just a matter of switching builds and strategy. It's better than just being kicked out when you have 60%DP
Snow Bunny
Quote:
Originally Posted by TabascoSauce
I have always focused on the resistance I receive. I was really curious about all the quick leaps from what I am saying to the "defensive" rebuttals. Mostly, they fall into the same line - "PvP shows you wrong" followed quickly by "You do not understand the game" This is where things get nasty, because PvP players seem to have a set of beliefs about GW PvP that involve their own ego and/or superiority to other players. To acknowledge that equipped skills > player skill would be agreeing that their advantage is based on puny book-knowledge and not some manly "playa mad skillz". PvP knowledge relating to PvE challenges mostly comes down to "Oh, that mob is using these skills, so this is the counter to assure my victory", because that is what they learn in PvP - notice that noone in the GW PvP universe has said "Ok, we need to raise our skills to counter some new Eurohex variant" - they say "We need to adapt our build to beat the Eurohex variant". Skill plays a role in the game, but honest GW "athletes" with the wrong build will lose to supposed "cheating noob scrubs". PvP presents an out-of-game challenge where you must account not only for your playstyle, but also the playstyle of your opponents - the metagame. Everyone agrees that player skill has a role in the game, but the difference in game knowledge that is not simply reflexive skill gained from accounting for the metagame allows you to spot for specific weaknesses and counter with the appropriate skills. So yeah, if you get good at PvP then you must learn to make good builds, or understand how good builds work. Does PvE give you the same experience? They want to say "no", and in a way I must agree with them - because Spoil Victor is all that is required to beat Cyndr. You can be at 60% DP, and the game keeps spitting you back out to face him indefinitely until SV wears it down. That is a different experience that PvP. But to make blanket statements that every PvP player is better than every PvE player is sheer hubris, and plain wrong. That is why I know I can always hit them where it hurts by implying that they as PvP players are so invested in the game that they need to use it as an achievement engine to make themselves feel better. It is a dirty trick, and a low blow, but unfortunately it works every time. But I can state that the "more intense" experience of PvP will teach you to analyze builds and come up with counters faster than PvE, maybe a good analogy would be to throw a child into the water and say "lrn2swim!" But you know, everyone has to have something they can crow about. The worst part about all this is Hanok's wish to roleplay. If he wants to have a hammer warrior, then he is absolutely right - there are challenges in this game that he would not be able to defeat because of the constraints of his character. That, is a real shame, considering the acronym used for this game is CORPG. Thanks! TabascoSauce Roleplaying aside. So what if PvP teaches you how to adapt really quickly? Is being intelligent such a terrible thing? PvP will teach you that Paragons are awe-inspiring at both defense and offense, something most PvE'rs I encounter seem to not understand. And by the way, this is "Build Wars". In PvE, most of player skill really doesn't matter much. It's your build that counts, and if the game is too hard, it's your build. Nothing but. Unless you're stupid.
YunSooJin
What is 'player skill' exactly in PvE?
interrupting monsters?..anything else? I dont really think aggro management is 'player skill', it's kind of basic (although I do notice most players still can't do it very well). I don't really see where the 'player skill' is other than interrupting monsters. PvE by definition doesn't require a lot of 'player skill'...so yeah. Klimax
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanok Odbrook
*LOTS OF TEXT*
I see where you're coming from, but I disagree with you, I believe finding a specific build ispart of the skill for playing the game, and the Guild Wars skill system is almost entirely based upon it: there aren't a lot of games where you can change everything about your character with just being in a town.
Tactics should come in too, but preparations are another thing, and Guild Wars is built upon that. Now you say you want to be able to roleplay your character, but this IS roleplaying. Some people are suited for particular jobs, but can't do others, and that goes for your W/Mo too. Now that's roleplaying. But the fact is, GW isn't a roleplaying game, it's set up so builds can be changed at any given time, and there are lots of other things I probably don't have to tell you that prove that GW isn't a roleplaying game. It sounds to me you're asking something from a game that it's not offering. It's just not what Guild Wars is.
Sab
I can sum up my argument by saying: You have no experience in top GvG, therefore your cannot make claims on top GvG with any authority. If you wish to disprove this by posting a guild history, then do so, otherwise please stop making claims outside of your own experience.
Originally Posted by TabascoSauce
If you want me to elaborate, read on. Quote: |
Quote:
Quote: Originally Posted by TabascoSauce PvP presents an out-of-game challenge where you must account not only for your playstyle, but also the playstyle of your opponents - the metagame. Everyone agrees that player skill has a role in the game, but the difference in game knowledge that is not simply reflexive skill gained from accounting for the metagame allows you to spot for specific weaknesses and counter with the appropriate skills. So yeah, if you get good at PvP then you must learn to make good builds, or understand how good builds work. And be skillful at playing those builds too. Player-skill becomes more and more important as you move out of the scrub arenas and into actual PvP. This ties in with build design - knowing the ins and outs of your build, how it interacts with other builds in your team and the enemy team, and making the necessary plays based on this knowledge. Example being a Warrior, this guy explains it a lot better than I can:
http://guildwars.incgamers.com/forum...=464117&page=2
Quote:
Quite so, Magni, like the other Gunner's games can be considered content outside of the norm, however, my problem with this particular mini-game is that you need it to unlock two Heroes (each with a sub-quest of their own), a really cool quest that offers up a unique mini-pet, and three skills. I wouldn't have as much of a problem with this game if it first wasn't for the artificially increased power of Magni as I stated in the PS of my last post, and the fact that it offers a lot more than simply favor, XP, or a unique item. I wouldn't have a problem if it were just that, but the fact that you need to beat this quest to unlock Heroes and Skills, but also requires careful build choice goes against what I believe should be content more easily accessible to the casual player.|
Originally Posted by TabascoSauce
Does PvE give you the same experience? They want to say "no", and in a way I must agree with them - because Spoil Victor is all that is required to beat Cyndr. You can be at 60% DP, and the game keeps spitting you back out to face him indefinitely until SV wears it down. That is a different experience that PvP. But to make blanket statements that every PvP player is better than every PvE player is sheer hubris, and plain wrong.
Thankfully no one I know has made such a statement.
Magni is a minigame that is specifically designed to test your ability to analyze your opponent's skills and produce a counter. The fact that success depends the most on build is exactly the intent of the game in this instance. Even so, there are several ways to beat him - some people use condition overload, others use 'punishment' skills like Ripostes, Spoil Victor, etc. combined with shutdown or damage mitigation (blinds, anti-melee hexes, wards, prots, etc.)
Quote:
I didn't say it wasn't legitimate - I think every part of GW from Pre-Searing to the HoH is legitimate content, however, not all these parts are equal, nor do they deserve equal treatment.
My concern is with the basic PvE playing level content that gets you through the game (i.e. the missions and the primary quests), and the related side material that has become the tradition in RPG's (i.e. the side quests). Part of the solution here is deciding what content belongs where, and how much we should expect a casual player to do to experience that content. Let's remember, GW was designed first and foremost for the casual player, and it was touted time and again that your skill in the game would not depend on how much time you played. However, by nature, build experimentation requires much more time to be vested in a game to be successful and thus works against the casual player. That is my contention, with each new addition to GW, the base mechanics of the game is drifting away from that notion that this is a game suited for the casual player.Now, a casual player by definition has a limited amount of time vested in a game, either by choice or by outside influences, such as job or family. Therefore, they will primarily be PvE players since PvP requires much more time, as it is more of a competitive environment. The High End content such as the Elite Missions, and the core High End Areas, and Hard Mode were not designed for the casual player, but for the hard core/power player. Anyone understands that, so they too must be thought of as separate content from the base nature of the game as it was designed. The typical casual player generally will not, nor has any desire to play in these areas, therefore they can be treated separately and I have no problem with build selection becoming more of an option/issue in these areas as that is part of the attraction to the higher end player. Quote: |
Quote:
Quote: Originally Posted by Burst Cancel
What ruins it is, ironically, sharing of information. If no one shared their builds for beating particular areas, each player would have to figure it out on their own, and the entire process of 'figuring it out' becomes an aspect of difficulty in and of itself. The reason a lot of people complain about cookie-cutter in GW today is because you don't have to do any of the work to develop the build - you just pull something off of the forums or the wiki that's already been figured out and tested, and then win.
Well again, the figuring out isn't necessarily what a casual player would desire. I don't doubt that a lot of players find this part of the game enjoyable as much as I find Role-playing my characters enjoyable. The problem is, we are sacrificing one for the other, I don't think that is necessarily right or should be required. I am in total agreement in that a player should never have to go to outside sources to get through any part of the game. Again, this goes against the typical casual player who just wants to sit down for an hour or two and progress in a manner they find fun and enjoyable. Making them feel they need to consult a Strategy Guide or wiki is a failure in the game IMO.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TabascoSauce
The idea that team familiarity and thereby getting coordination and cooperation amongst that team constitute deepness of the game is a sketchy argument at best for tactical depth, since every competitive game requires that. As I said before, any matchup between teamwork versus individual supastarz will result in a win for teamwork. Claiming that GW is different from every other competitive game seems a bit far-fetched, when I can say the same mechanic applies to such lowly sports as kickball.
Like I said, you're extrapolating from other games when you could either play GvG, or not talk about it.Quote:
I said before, your team can have the best communication in the world, but if your Warriors sucks at pressure, your Mesmer can't time his shutdown, and your Ele gets his B-Surge diverted, your team is going to fail. You can get by in PvE and the scrub arenas without knowing those things because the level of play is a lot lower. I don't expect a PvE Monk to understand pre-protting, for example, because it's simply not needed in most of PvE. And to carry on this example, the importance of pre-protting rises as the level of play increases, until you get to GvG where if you suck at pre-protting, you lose. By no means am I saying that GvG is the only place you can learn to pre-prot, I'm saying that an ounce of GvG experience will teach you more about pre-protting than two years of PvE.|
Originally Posted by Burst Cancel
If people could win with literally any build, any time, there wouldn't be any compelling reason to actually figure out all of the skills, and no reason for the designers to include so many skills.
Except that it is fun. I restate, that is why I have 22 PvE characters. It is because I want to play with and learn to use all these myriad of skills given to us and create a character I have a vested interest in playing and that I have a fun time doing it. Forcing me to change my choice because it is a choice that does not suit a particular part of the game is not fun to me, and goes directly against what I consider a casual game to be.
Any competitive game, player versus player or player versus bot, will involve coordination and cooperation in team play, and your contention that the only place to master those skills in GW is top GvG is just plain silly. They can be learned if you play in the same PuG in PvE all the time. They can be learned in PvP also, as you say. You claim there is a difference, and I'm claiming that there is not. Sound fair enough as a summary?
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I'm saying that there is a strong element of personal skill in PvP that you're dismissing. And as for being a PvE player, I think it's quite clear by now that you are. I couldn't imagine having this argument with a PvPer.
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Quote: Originally Posted by TabascoSauce
If if it comforts you thinking that cooperation/coordination is some sort of a GW PvP exclusive, then whatever.
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Originally Posted by cthulhu reborn
Hard Mode is harder, I'll grant you that, and Prot + passive defense + not balling up to AoE is pretty much all you need to not die. I know because I've played a lot of Hard Mode (fully vanquished Elona and I've been working on Tyria for the past week).
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Trading is irrelevant to the discussion because it has nothing to do with actual player skill. The required knowledge/contacts are entirely different. Every time you try to force this point you only make yourself look more ridiculous.
Your point about soloing is also ridiculous, and you even explained why.
Quote: The only difference is that on the PvE side you can keep practicing just one trick until you learn it.
Practicing something that doesn't change doesn't make you good. I've soloed enough to know that all it takes is rudimentary knowledge of your build and the zone, and then reliance on the build to simply plow through the target.Quote:
To each their own. The problem starts when a non-PvP player pretends he knows PvP inside out and makes baseless claims about aspects of PvP of which he has no experience. You haven't done that, so thank you.|
Originally Posted by TabascoSauce
As far as becoming an arrogant liar, your words not mine, then why are you so disturbed by the premise that equipped skills > player skill? You challenge me every message with providing you proof of my PvP leetness, so what would tales from a year ago or more about sweeping HoH with this or that trick build mean to you? Would that prove anything to you? I doubt it.
I don't think a person who has never played top GvG has the authority to call it skill-less. It's dishonest at best. And I asked for a guild history, which is a standard of way of showing your PvP experience. If you had anything to show, you wouldn't be weaseling your way out of it.
PvP and PvE are very different types of play. I have tried PvP on a few occasions and I simply never liked it...so be it. When I want to play against real people as such I will play a FPS like Unreal tournament.
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I do choose my words carefully. Quoting from myself, "I don't *expect* a PvE monk to understand pre-protting", because the majority of them don't. Pick up a random pug monk and chances are he'll be running a bar full of heals. There's a small minority of PvE Monks who do understand the importance of Prot, and that's good, but it's not what I'm arguing in the paragraph you quoted. I'm arguing that the level of skill required for top GvG is far beyond what you can learn in PvE or even low-end PvP. Agree or disagree?
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You see, when I play PvE with a PuG or with a few of my guildies there is a noticeable difference. The main differences being that we don't have that much dp and it takes half the time to do it. Skill in playing PvE does exist and does make a difference. There is no mission in the game that we would worry about in the sense that there is the chance that we might not make it. When missions are new then you can fail or have trouble with them but we learn and adapt builds of skill bars and team and then you know how to handle it. And yet there are many people who get stuck on missions and do em 20-30 times and still fail, but again there are many PvP ers who will never play high level PvP either.
Now in PvP you have rankings and you can say...look we are in high ranking PvP so we know what we're talking about.
But just because there is no listing for high level PvE play doesn't mean it isn't there.
There are loads of idiots in PvE and PvP...your vision may be clouded to this if you play high level PvP or GvG only, forgetting that the general populace on the PvP side which are by definition not on the high level side are just as unskilled as the general populace on the PvE side. There are bad players everywhere, I don't doubt that. I run into them every day in both PvP and PvE. The main matter here is: What separates good players from bad players? You mentioned that player skill is important and I agree with you, in fact that's what I've been arguing all this time. To expand on this, a player's success also depends on knowledge, understanding and communication. However, knowing all that is useless without proper execution, which ties in closely with player skill.
There are plenty of other examples, like target calling. It's basically non-existent in PvE (kill the Monk), but it gets more and more important the higher-level PVP you go. Or something more general like positioning. For the most part it doesn't matter in PVE, you're not punished for bad positioning unless you're really, really bad. Positioning ties in with kiting, which again is more important in higher levels of play.
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Originally Posted by tmakinen
I would love to hear how leet PvP skills automagically make you a top dog in some PvE activity like power trading.
Bringing up nonsense comparisons isn't particularly helpful to the discussion.Now in PvP you have rankings and you can say...look we are in high ranking PvP so we know what we're talking about.
But just because there is no listing for high level PvE play doesn't mean it isn't there.
There are loads of idiots in PvE and PvP...your vision may be clouded to this if you play high level PvP or GvG only, forgetting that the general populace on the PvP side which are by definition not on the high level side are just as unskilled as the general populace on the PvE side. There are bad players everywhere, I don't doubt that. I run into them every day in both PvP and PvE. The main matter here is: What separates good players from bad players? You mentioned that player skill is important and I agree with you, in fact that's what I've been arguing all this time. To expand on this, a player's success also depends on knowledge, understanding and communication. However, knowing all that is useless without proper execution, which ties in closely with player skill.
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I'm discussing player-skills that are required, to varying degrees, in all aspects of the game. And I gave an example of one: pre-protting. It's not comparing apples to oranges. You can learn the very basics of protting in PvE - throw PS and SoA on whoever's taking aggro, maybe a Seed or whatever else you have. That's pretty much the extent PvE requires. It does not teach you to Prot against enemies who intelligently switch targets, fakes out your Prot, spike with enchantment removal, split on the spike, and so forth. From this, I hold that a decent GvG Monk will Prot better than a decent PvE Monk, whether in GvG or PvE.|
Originally Posted by cthulhu reborn
All in all, I would say that you seem either biased yourself or simply not choosing the words that describe what you actually mean.
Most of what you said, while interesting, isn't entirely relevant to what I was arguing. I hope I clarified my post by rewording and bolding my original points.
tmakinen
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Originally Posted by Sab
There are very skilled PvP'ers. There are very skilled PvE'ers. You can't claim flatly that the former are far more skilled by any given measure of 'skill' just because some people get ranked and the others don't.
cthulhu reborn
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Originally Posted by Sab
I do choose my words carefully. Quoting from myself, "I don't *expect* a PvE monk to understand pre-protting", because the majority of them don't. Pick up a random pug monk and chances are he'll be running a bar full of heals. There's a small minority of PvE Monks who do understand the importance of Prot, and that's good, but it's not what I'm arguing in the paragraph you quoted. I'm arguing that the level of skill required for top GvG is far beyond what you can learn in PvE or even low-end PvP. Agree or disagree?
As it seems we agree on most items that you mentioned in your last post I will only respond to this part. I disagree. Qualifications like "far beyond" are what make your statement uneven. GvG and PvE are entirely different. This means that by playing PvE you will not learn what you need in high level GvG and also by playing GvG you will not learn all you need to to do PvE on a higher level but I do think that higher level players on either side will have it easier on the other side aswell as they at least tend to show quick learning ability. There a a few things that will carry over but not enough. You still have to play it to get really skillful and that goes for both sides of the game. PvP is geared towards beating an equal team. Two teams of 8 players of level 20 that are fighting each other without AI is a very different game than a group of 8 players going through an area with level 28 monsters on an AI and facing completely different types of enemy team builds in one session. The one assumption that is being made that the only measure of PvE is whether you finish the game or not. This is not the case however. The game has to be made such that most anybody can finish it will minimal though (though even that seems to be lacking a lot) so it is as such relatively easy to get to the end. Higher level PvE gameplay is about how you get there and not if you get there or not. When I see one of the many threads about "this mission is too hard" and I know that after doing it a few times and paying attention to what happens I have learned to do this same mission without any trouble at all it indicates a difference in play style. They will eventually get lucky and make it to the end, but more in spite of themselves than thanks to them. Such it is in PvE PvP and GvG are very different. It is about winning against a single team and you don't know ahead of time what exactly you are going to get. There is a certain thrill in that and the fact that you are beating people rather than the AI but from what I've seen in PvP and such I do not think that more skill is required but certainly different skills. What creates the PvP attitude about PvE being less skillful is not that people cannot use just as much skill in PvE but that it is not required to use as much skill to get towards your goal and that is an importan difference. There are some very skillful PvE ers out there but they are that way because of their attitude and choose to be skillful. In PvP the goal itself (being high ranked) requires more skill and you can't even get remotely there without a minimum amount of skill. But I disagree when you say that GvG play goes far beyond PvE ers as a generalisation, that I think is based on that particular misconception. Because what you should be saying is that high level GvG is way above the heads of the common PvE player and not PvE players in general, however the common PvP er will have a hard time doing certain PvE missions and call them too hard just the same.
Sab
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Originally Posted by tmakinen
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There are plenty of other examples, like target calling. It's basically non-existent in PvE (kill the Monk), but it gets more and more important the higher-level PVP you go. Or something more general like positioning. For the most part it doesn't matter in PVE, you're not punished for bad positioning unless you're really, really bad. Positioning ties in with kiting, which again is more important in higher levels of play.
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The dungeons in GWEN aren't all that demanding. In Slaver's, for example, you just aggro a mob, pull them a bit back so all their midliners ball up nicely, then nuke them all in one go. Lay down a Frozen or interrupt the Sig of Return on the Axe Para. Disrupt the Res Sig chain if needed. Rinse and repeat. One zone requires you to move out of Savannah Heats and Firestorms. Another asks you to kite from touch Necros. If you die, it doesn't really matter, you have infinite resses and consumables. |
Originally Posted by tmakinen
There are very skilled PvP'ers. There are very skilled PvE'ers. You can't claim flatly that the former are far more skilled by any given measure of 'skill' just because some people get ranked and the others don't.
A combination of all these aspects I gave examples of earlier is what I define "player skill".
Cthulhu Reborn: It seems like you replied while I was typing, but I think I covered most of you main points in the post. While there are skills which are arena-specific such as Relic Running, splitting or aggroing mobs, I'm speaking of player skills that are universal, which I gave plenty of examples of. If there's anything important that I missed, I'd be happy to elaborate.
cthulhu reborn
[QUOTE=Sab]I'm discussing player-skills that are required, to varying degrees, in all aspects of the game. And I gave an example of one: pre-protting. It's not comparing apples to oranges. You can learn the very basics of protting in PvE - throw PS and SoA on whoever's taking aggro, maybe a Seed or whatever else you have. That's pretty much the extent PvE requires. It does not teach you to Prot against enemies who intelligently switch targets, fakes out your Prot, spike with enchantment removal, split on the spike, and so forth. From this, I hold that a decent GvG Monk will Prot better than a decent PvE Monk, whether in GvG or PvE.
There are plenty of other examples, like target calling. It's basically non-existent in PvE (kill the Monk), but it gets more and more important the higher-level PVP you go. Or something more general like positioning. For the most part it doesn't matter in PVE, you're not punished for bad positioning unless you're really, really bad. Positioning ties in with kiting, which again is more important in higher levels of play. QUOTE] lol mate I am seriously starting to think you don't PvE much. The higher level area's HM and GW:EN have a lot more going on than your description here. Also jumping down from high level GvG to average players is interesting. What I will give you is that PvP requires more skill in general but it still doesn't mean that it doesn't exist in PvE especially in the mentioned area's and HM. Parties who have monks that do just that will get wiped regularly. They don't fly through those area's trust me. Monsters go for the weakest target they can find on higher level PvE. They do target monks and spell casters and they spike a hell of a lot more. A single spell from a level 28 can cause over 400 damage to multiple targets in some places. You can't heal against that especially if you incurred some dp cause then it's one shot kills. PvE requires a minimum amount of players that do know what they're doing and a single player can screw up a mission for a whole team in some area's. No, your condescending attitude towards PvE is not appropriate.
bungusmaximus
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Originally Posted by Sab
There are plenty of other examples, like target calling. It's basically non-existent in PvE (kill the Monk), but it gets more and more important the higher-level PVP you go. Or something more general like positioning. For the most part it doesn't matter in PVE, you're not punished for bad positioning unless you're really, really bad. Positioning ties in with kiting, which again is more important in higher levels of play.
Be careful not to counter nonsense with even more nonsense.
Try using [skill]mark of pain[/skill] without focus firing, it's a waste. Killing monks first is rubbish also in my book, I shut them down and rape the eles and melee first. Positioning saves your butt against a level 30 boss using pesky AoE damage, it's also pretty practical for cornerblocking. Besides, I switch targets in PvE too, sliver armor and whirling defense are bitches. I agree with you to some extent though, AI mobs aren't as smart as people, but there sure as hell is a lot more to PvE then people think, unless people want to spend 5 hours on a mission with -60 dp.
Sab
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Originally Posted by cthulhu reborn
lol mate I am seriously starting to think you don't PvE much. The higher level area's HM and GW:EN have a lot more going on than your description here. Also jumping down from high level GvG to average players is interesting. What I will give you is that PvP requires more skill in general but it still doesn't mean that it doesn't exist in PvE especially in the mentioned area's and HM. Parties who have monks that do just that will get wiped regularly. They don't fly through those area's trust me. Monsters go for the weakest target they can find on higher level PvE. They do target monks and spell casters and they spike a hell of a lot more. A single spell from a level 28 can cause over 400 damage to multiple targets in some places. You can't heal against that especially if you incurred some dp cause then it's one shot kills. PvE requires a minimum amount of players that do know what they're doing and a single player can screw up a mission for a whole team in some area's. No, your condescending attitude towards PvE is not appropriate. |
Hard Mode is harder, I'll grant you that, and Prot + passive defense + not balling up to AoE is pretty much all you need to not die. I know because I've played a lot of Hard Mode (fully vanquished Elona and I've been working on Tyria for the past week).
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Originally Posted by bungusmaximus
Be careful not to counter nonsense with even more nonsense.
Try using [skill]mark of pain[/skill] without focus firing, it's a waste. Killing monks first is rubbish also in my book, I shut them down and rape the eles and melee first. Positioning saves your butt against a level 30 boss using pesky AoE damage, it's also pretty practical for cornerblocking. Besides, I switch targets in PvE too, sliver armor and whirling defense are bitches. I agree with you to some extent though, AI mobs aren't as smart as people, but there sure as hell is a lot more to PvE then people think, unless people want to spend 5 hours on a mission with -60 dp. While it's nice you know a lot more than the average pug, your examples show fairly basic levels of play. While I'm not saying this in a condescending way, I'm suggesting that you will learn more about focus firing, positioning and target switching in PvP, which you can then apply to PvE to greater effect.
tmakinen
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Originally Posted by Sab
I'm discussing player-skills that are required, to varying degrees, in all aspects of the game. And I gave an example of one: pre-protting.
<snip> Bringing up nonsense comparisons isn't particularly helpful to the discussion. It looks like you are either suggesting that trading is not an aspect of GW, despite it being more or less the entire game for some people, or then maybe you believe that it's important to pre-prot your merchandise before selling it. I have a hard time trying to decide which option is less nonsensical There's much more to PvE than just the 'smash face' aspect. It may be hard to grasp from a PvP perspective where it's, ultimately, all about smash face. Maybe I can give another example that would be easier to understand: soloing stuff. There are runs that any amount of GvG experience won't make you prepared for - you will fail until you learn the specifics and hone your execution to impeccable levels, just like any skilled PvE'er has done. The only difference is that on the PvE side you can keep practicing just one trick until you learn it. The number of tricks on either side may well be comparable. IslandHermet
All righty hopefuly this will Shut all the bitching up Pardon my French, Sab I am Tired of you trying to Boast PvP Athority im Tier 3 champion and am sick of people trying to Claim PvP^PvE or PvE^PvP, if you are PvP specfic you do not know as much as someone who PvPs as much as you but throws in PvE as well and that the same for PvE people, Play every aspect of the Game all the time and you will be better than someone who plays just 1 thing no matter how much they try to convince you other wise ((Same as someone sitting in a Class room teaching about the world and someone Exploring the World))
bungusmaximus
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Originally Posted by Sab
I'm suggesting that you will learn more about focus firing, positioning and target switching in PvP, which you can then apply to PvE to greater effect.
That's indeed true, PvP was especially nice for my reflexes, I do play PvP, albeit mostly TA battles/some HA and no GvG. Especially HA taught me that PvP doen't necessarily require skill, the number of lousy players in there is rather scary, (and of course there are good players too, might wanna say that as well before chaos and flamefests will ensue, the HA community on guru is about as sensitive as unstable radio-active matter ^^).
Just wanted to pooint out that both sides have their fair share of idiots, elitists and screwups imo.
Snow Bunny
[/QUOTE]lol mate I am seriously starting to think you don't PvE much. The higher level area's HM and GW:EN have a lot more going on than your description here.
Also jumping down from high level GvG to average players is interesting. What I will give you is that PvP requires more skill in general but it still doesn't mean that it doesn't exist in PvE especially in the mentioned area's and HM. Parties who have monks that do just that will get wiped regularly. They don't fly through those area's trust me. Monsters go for the weakest target they can find on higher level PvE. They do target monks and spell casters and they spike a hell of a lot more. A single spell from a level 28 can cause over 400 damage to multiple targets in some places. You can't heal against that especially if you incurred some dp cause then it's one shot kills. PvE requires a minimum amount of players that do know what they're doing and a single player can screw up a mission for a whole team in some area's. No, your condescending attitude towards PvE is not appropriate.[/QUOTE] I've done everything in PvE you can do...wish I could say I've had as a fulfilling experience in PvP. Trust me. PvP will make you better. PvP will teach you (as a monk, which is what I am) to preprot certain targets, for example that prot henchie that has DP and thus less health, and thus is targeted often. And the difference between high end pvp and high end pve is this. In pve if a player RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOs up big, normally the team can get through. In pvp, not likely. Still... the game is easy.
Snow Bunny
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Originally Posted by IslandHermet
All righty hopefuly this will Shut all the bitching up Pardon my French, Sab I am Tired of you trying to Boast PvP Athority im Tier 3 champion and am sick of people trying to Claim PvP^PvE or PvE^PvP, if you are PvP specfic you do not know as much as someone who PvPs as much as you but throws in PvE as well and that the same for PvE people, Play every aspect of the Game all the time and you will be better than someone who plays just 1 thing no matter how much they try to convince you other wise ((Same as someone sitting in a Class room teaching about the world and someone Exploring the World))
I'm calling bullshit. Probably just grinds his lightbringer title and equates that to Champ.
Trolling as well.
creelie
I have to disagree with the OP. I feel that this time, Anet really hit the nail on the head as far as difficulty goes. The mobs have functional skillbars, the mixed teams are balanced, and there are even some creatures with secondary professions (oh, Charr Seeker, if I had a fiery bowstring Pyre would totally be stealing your build).
This is an enormously refreshing change from Nightfall's roving bands of superpowered elementalists. Sure, a couple of the dungeons require actually changing your personal and team build to deal with the particular hazards there. Frostmaw thumbed his(/her?) proboscis at me until I brought in wells and wards and group hex removal. Shards of Orr kind of got melted to slag by 3 monk heroes specced for smiting. But, on the whole, I would call EotN challenging and fun, as opposed to challenging and frustrating.
Avarre
Sab has more PvE experience than most of this thread put together. At the same time, players with almost no PvP experience are trying to condemn a lack of understanding of both facets of the game. I'm not sure how the amount of irony hasn't yet damaged the internet.
Originally Posted by tmakinen
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Your point about soloing is also ridiculous, and you even explained why.
Quote: The only difference is that on the PvE side you can keep practicing just one trick until you learn it.
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bungusmaximus : Target calling is not an issue of what do you target first. It's a tactic of constantly rotating targets to capitalize on weak points in the enemy defense. As PvE monsters do not adapt to your build or offensive pattern, exploitation of opened weakpoints is nonexistent - you smash what they have and that's it.
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Originally Posted by cthulhu reborn
Monsters go for the weakest target they can find on higher level PvE. They do target monks and spell casters and they spike a hell of a lot more. A single spell from a level 28 can cause over 400 damage to multiple targets in some places. You can't heal against that especially if you incurred some dp cause then it's one shot kills.
Which is why you just use a tank, or stack passive defense, and roll through it with little care. Basic knowledge of the game will tell you that allowing that kind of damage to strike you in full means you are doing it wrong.
Crom The Pale
This thread has gone way off topic, but its still not closed so lets just jump on in shall we
PvP and PvE both require player skill. Neither requires more skill than the other but diffent skills. The methods of dealing with a team of live players using skills equal to your own is not the same as defeating a mob that outnumbers you, has skills that outperform yours and has sometimes double the hitpoints/energy you have. The fact that the AI is not very bright when compared to a human player is imaterial. What works on most human players does not work vs an overpowered AI. If this was true there would never be any need for skill balancing as every skill/build has its counter. Even a monster that has 5000hp an infinite Holy Wrath(minus the energy cost and at 200% feedback) can be countered with the right party build and stratagey. In PvE, just like PvP having all the right skills in your skill bar does not promiss total perfect victory. Team work is as essential in high end PvE zones like DoA as it is in high end GvG, though the player skills needed are not the exact same. I am a pve player, I have played pvp but will not pretend to be an expert at it. I do however know enough that they are both very diffent games. I would love to see a group of High-end GvG people, that do not PvE take on Mallyx and see if there PvP stratagy's have any corolation. As to the original context of this thread.........The difficutly of PvE is varialbe based upon the number of live people, the skills a player has available and the skill of the play themselves. It is not unrealistic to expect the higher/elite zones to be hard for those that do not have a full team of live people all with the right skills and knowladge of how and when to use them. There is no portion of the normal(ie storyline) game that can not be accomplished with little effort and some live people. |