A discussion on 7 heroes

Resource funding for GW is at a minimum now, hardly likely there will be more heroes as that would take a tremendous amount of resources. Anet is moving AWAY from heroes and henchies if you notice as GW2 is just going to give you some companion who gives you buffs and there won't even be 3 heroes or any henchies. Best get used to the new age of GW.

You mean the one where everything in the game can be soloed and there's no reason to ever party, be it with AI or with humans? I'm looking forward to it. Until then, it'd be nice to have true soloability in all areas of this game too.

And considering that we can have 6 heroes now by backdooring the system, 7 shouldn't be a serious problem. It's not like we need control windows for all of them or something.

Thrid choice: Quit, which I did many months ago. I've played exactly 6 hours of GW since before Christmas, and that onyl to get the end-game weapons for Prophecies.

WHy am I on the forums? Look at my post history; these are the first posts I've left in MONTHS.

As for build criticism -- I don't care to grind cheap-ass PvE skills like Ursan and LB gaze, nor do I like the pointless design fo the GW end-game areas where those skills are required by 99% of groups. My builds are just fine, and were never questions until a couple of over-powered PvE skills turned the entire game into easy-farm mode.

Even *if* GW added full hero groups, I wouldn't play much, because I don;t like where ANet took the gameplay. Before Nightfall, I was a rah-rah GW fanatic. Now I am not. Your mileage may vary... and given ANet's model, I'm certain they don't give a tinker's damn about people like me.

Having stated my opinion, I once again fade away... you may fire the last word when ready, Gridley.

Henchmen and heroes were the first bad design decision; adding grind-based cheat skills (Ursan) and consumable cheat codes was even worse.

Weird example of how broken GW gameplay is: I popped into the game last week to do Hell's Precipice for the end-game weapon. Hadn't played in months. Went in with eight humans, lost two by the time we got to the bonus, had only one healer left. I popped several consumables, and we walked through the rest of the level like it was child's play -- no deaths, no challenge.

How could seven heroes *POSSIBLY* make the game too easy in a world of Ursan and consumables? Dear God, GW PvE is no challenge at all these days.

Area difficulty should have scaled by group size, so that peopel could go with whatever size group they want. And it may just be that GW2 will do that.

If ANet truly learns from the mistakes made in GW1, I'll be buying GW2.

They also developed system for 7 heroes as they playtested NF. Its out there.

Like I said before, and it bears stating again, there are 5 zones where Henchmen cannot go, The Fissure of Woe, The Underworld, The Deep, Urgoz Warden, and The Domain of Anguish. Furthermore, the Deep and Urgoz need highly specialized builds. If Henchmen aren't allowed down there, then let me take in a hero based party, or put in 'ascended' or specialized henchmen so I can get down there with AI. The deal was I'd be able to H&H everything without having to mess with the average dingbat, It's BS that I can't H&H the elite missions. Even if they implemented the 7 heroes(11 for urgoz/deep) just for those zones, and you couldn't leave those zones with them(only enter the elite missions) that'd be just fine. I do believe I can H&H every other aspect of the game(vanquished all but 3 elonian zones 1+3+4 well on my way with canthan and prophecies zones and done many H&H guardian missions), I HAVE 2+6'd the FoW and parts of the UW. It is possible to 4 man the FoW with just heroes. There's no good reason they won't let us take 7 heroes down there, not one. Not one technical, not one balance-wise, not even a 'social' one.

Whatever GW2's mechanics are it will be a totally different game, GW1 is based around the concept of a 4, 6 or 8 man party, and plays like a 8 man RTS, and has almost always had the option to take AIs instead of humans(an option I exercised early and often). The advent of customizable AIs wasn't a bad design decision, it was brilliant. It was a decision that saved the average social pug player and soloist alike. It re-invigorated PvE and added a new layer of strategic play. Adding 20+ heroes, and only allowing 3 at a time per player was the dumb thing to do.

The 'it takes to many resources to implement' thing is bull too, all they have to do is add a second/third row of buttons beneath the radar, make the hero panels scalable, and fiddle with the party drop down box so you can add them in. In terms of the programming it took to get GW up and running in the first place, that should be child's play for even a low level code monkey to pull off.

The biggest problem with adding these heros would that they would focus on more individual play. Is that a bad thing? Yes, this is GW where you are meant to play as a team. There are better games out there solo.

The biggest competitor for 7 heros is simply Ursan. As much as I dislike Ursan, one good thing about it is that it can bring people together. Adding in the 7 heros will likely destroy what's left of pug team play in PvE there is.

Bull. I can(and do) already H&H about 90% of the game, a TEAM of myself and up to 7 AIs. Like I said, those 5 areas are the only place where you currentlyNEED humans(sort of) . Anyone who gave up on the average pug has already done so(I fill a party with guildies, allies or friend lists or heroes or not at all), anyone who still pugs will still do so until they get fed up too. All 7-11 hero parties does is give dedicated soloist a shot at areas where we don't normally go.

Having those 7 heros STILL gives you the option of replacing pug in those areas so it STILL discourages pug - it doesn't detract from my argument.

If you advocate going solo, this isn't the game for you anyway.

err how many pugs do you see going to the deep these days, and where there ARE pugs how many permit you going as your own class and your own build rather than bear.

you're right its about OPTIONS, you want to pug? fine. go ahead. what does having 7 heroes change to that, after all you have your fantastic guild and incredible social skills to compensate the hordes of antisocial soloers that will suddenly pop up in the game.

I see pugs (non-Ursan, at that) going into The Deep all the time between the hours of 9am and about 2pm PST in the International districts.

I am all for having the option to have 7 heros.

thou I don't pug that often, there are times that I have to delay doing a mission because I can't get a group to do with me. especially mission where you need 2 or 3 pairs of hands.

for people who thinks MMORPG automatically means you have to play with other players, I like to differ. Its a Massive Multiplayer Online Role Playing Game, you can be a friendly character, you can be a loner, you can be ... get my drift. MMORPG not one word in that describe that a player have to play with another player. Players are log onto a massive multiplayer server and pretend to be that character they are playing, that is all.

for instant, yesterday I wanted to do Nundu Bays mission for the master rewards, which I did with H/H. but the story is, I saw someone looking for group to do the mission, a ranked 8 LB ... they advertise for quiet some time without any answers, so I ask if anyone needed someone to do master for the mission with, so this person asnwers what's your profession, i Answers ele, and no reply... lol I thought I help, see, and this pug ignore me, like ele is somekind of contagious disease.

now why I tell you that story, well its to show you that time like that you really, really need Heros/Henches for the player who evidently cannot complete the mission with master rewards and for me who got rejected rofl for being an ele, in truth players pick and choose and waste your time, and prejudice against the profession you are playing and skill bars that does not satisfy other players.

Having 7 heroes would change nothing, People still solo with H/H so that is a pointless discussion. Balance will not be changed what so ever since a 7 hero party would be no stronger than an 8man player party, Hero's do not have better skills nor do they have a smarter AI than a human mind.

People who like to socialize and play with people will continue to do so, Players who only play with h/h will continue to play solo with computer allies.

A lot of players simply do not join guilds or find people they like to party with for many reasons. Many do not like to wait or have time to wait for an acceptable party with all the skills people demand. Or they like to run their own builds and not let people dictate how they play the game.

7 heroes would not require much work from anet, the most work would be the addition of 4 more flags on the mini map, Not a huge task.
Adding 5 more heroes would not take anything away from the progress of gw2 nor should it be a problem for people who do not use heroes because they are not losing anything. social people wont change, players who like to solo wont change.

Drops will remain the same. There is no valid reason 7 heroes + access with heroes to elite areas can not be done. It is simply a way to force co-op play with a community of very rude people who care nothing for the other player.
7 heroes would be a great solution for those of us who like to enjoy the game without the drama of other people, and who are sick of the massive failings and struggles of henchmen.

And to the players who state that GW is not a single player game, or there are other, better single player games are wasting their time because those of us who solo find GW to be a very fun single player game with multiplayer options. So stop telling us what we like and trying to force us to put up with your in-game abuse.

7 heroes will not affect pvp in anyway, which is the truely social side of gw. Plus we could try new build combos and get even more enjoyment!It would also make hero battles much more intense.

What game would you then suggest? As far as I can see this is the only game in it's class.

Traditional MMO's have tons of options and has the one near perfect game (WoW). Offline single player games have many options and have a few really really good ones (Oblivion). I agree that if you want a single player offline game go elsewhere just as if you want a MMO you should go elsewhere, however GW has never been one of them.

The only other game I see that remotely is similar is Diablo II. However it's old enough that you surely aren't telling me to go play that (I might as well tell you that the original EQ is good enough if you want an MMO)? Nor does it fill the same niche that GW fills (though it did fill a similar one at one time).

The boxes I have say I can play the game solo or in a group if I so choose so I'm not sure why I should go elsewhere if I want to play solo - it seems to me as if *you* came here expecting something that wasn't advertised. It's not like AI companions are something new in GW and the original players were screwed.

It's quite laughable that at this point in the game you tell solo players go elsewhere as they have been one of the largest groups since the game was released, in fact they were *the* largest groups shortly after release. The game has been a mostly solo game since about 6 months into release (about when people stopped forming PUGS for anything outside of the harder missions). Within the first year PUGS had died and it was mostly guilds, friends list, and hench.

It is way too late to tell people who want to solo the game that it isn't for them, given the amount of us who have happily done so for years (along with the general complaints in this thread about how you can only solo stuff and not get groups) you mostly look like an idiot claiming that. If you and others had pushed it 2.5-3 years ago maybe you would have gotten your way, now it's too late.

if i want to play with other people i go to pvp (wich i do alot more than pve anyway). pve has always been a place for me to steamroll creatures and with 7 hero's that'll go better than just 3 and some henchies.

Perhaps you guys who want to solo everything just need a single player RPG? There are many of them out there, and most have better stories then GW.

Very true... I think the sales clerks should start telling people this before they buy a MMO of any kind

but i was on these forums about 7months ago... and im pretty sure there were like 4 topics going on about 7 heroes cant believe you guys are still speaking about it

ie = PLAY MY WAI OR GTFO!!

pugs suck. i dont like playing with other people. give us a spark back in this game. kthx

And perhaps you're too stupid to realize that GW was and still is advertised as a game that you can solo and that was one of the reasons I bought it.
Just a thought...
If I want to play with other people, I go pvp. And that's because I can beat the crap out of other people.

QFT. But if I want to play with other people, I go to games where PvE is actually challenging.

/yes, yes, a thousand times YES. We have them and are going to use them. If people want to pug they will, and if they don't they will muddle through with the henchies. I often play with my brother and we take 6 heros with us. But when he is not available it would be nice to get some use out of Goren or Gwen or Master of Wispers or Koss or Vekk. As it is now they are just another money sink eating up runes for armor and using all my good weapons. Here's for using Heros all of them, they are getting lonely and might go on strike if we don't use them more. (Rmeember the Monks)

Socialising in an online game, how ironic. I go outside to get some real human contact, not by typing in a text box. I don't wanne team up with strangers, can be scammers/hackers or whatever. You don't know who you're playing with and I don't like that idea so don't force me to play with potential internet scum.

Just wanne play this game with real life friends or alone. If they're not online, the option should be there to play with 7 heroes, just because it's already possible to play with 6 heroes if you have 2 accounts.

The code already exists like 'Black Sephir' mentionned. Balance is no issue either if you followed the topic. Interface problem is also bull, because it's up to you how many windows you wanne see. No one forces you to open all 7 at once. And many wouldn't mind the other 4 heroes to be passively controlled like we have henchies now.

Actually, i got a conspiracy idea, the only reason why they refuse to release 7 heroes is simple: Anet WANTS to get SPEND more to get those heroes.

Simply by being quiet on the issue, and with people slowly but surely pining to get more heroes, eventually, some players would just buy more copies of GW just for the heroes.

Smart corporate move IMHO.

There you go.

The only thing I came but didn't expect was the amount of grinding despite the advertisement. I just don't think this is the game you should be soloing at. Course everyone wants the short cut unless they go Ursan.

The point is that pugs are still part of the game - It doesn't matter whether or not soloists are one of the biggest group. If 7 heros discourage the pugs, then it shouldn't be implemented. As I said before, the one good thing about Ursan is that it brings together people that wouldn't have considered before, into a pug.

Unless you can prove it with hard facts, it remains subjective.

You look like an idiot claiming that everyone is happy with the situation - that's totally biased. Not everyone has a good guild to party with or has the ability to solo 90% of the game. If you're one of those good for you, but there are others in the GW community that require more pugging.

This still isn't meant to be a solo game it's all about team effort. There's a reason why ANet didn't put all 7 heros for the individual player. The heros gave players more flexibility on what they want in a party, but unless they want to be stuck with henches, they can go for other people.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MasterSasori The point is that pugs are still part of the game - It doesn't matter whether or not soloists are one of the biggest group. If 7 heros discourage the pugs, then it shouldn't be implemented. As I said before, the one good thing about Ursan is that it brings together people that wouldn't have considered before, into a pug.

Why worry if Ursan is bringing players together? You will still have your Ursan puggers.

Facts remains players who don't want to pug now will not pug, even with Ursan, like myself (level 8), unless absolutely necessary, I don't pug often. I can safely say 90% of the time I am playing on my own with H/H. If puggers can get Ursan why can't players who wish to play alone with H/H get 7 Heros and go exploring all the elite missions? Why are we being subjected to other players scrutiny? I played the game best with H/H in PvE, a quest/mission that I can complete under half an hours becomes a one hour mission with pug. So why do I have to waste that extra half hour (rough estimate) just becasue some players think MMORPG is playing with lots of other people?

Yeah... my ideal team is composed of me and 7 other AIs that I control, get that through your skull buddy. If you aren't meant to e able to go it alone WHY HAVE THERE BEEN HENCHMEN FROM DAY 1. GW isn't like other mmorpgs, it's very debatable that you could even call it one(IMO GW just barely qualifies as an RPG it has more RTS/FPS aspects honestly, a very unique experience). Most games have big single player with multi tacked on, this one is a little backwards. As far as I'm concerned outside of PvP, GW is a single player game I log into over the internet, via a 1 time subscription fee(and a few upgrades). I have little problem with this(aside from the lack of access to the elite mission, that I have a problem with).

Thing is, Pugs Discourage pugs. Like all the horror stories mentoned before, I started H&Hing in the desert and THK. Ursan didn't convince me to pug, not much will(I only have the skill on like 3/12 slots, and those were only done for the quest rewards ore then the skill itself). All the norn elites did was make a mediocre, idiot proof bar that any braindead fool could run, and add in another source of rank discrimination(LFG R10 Norn Show).

Solo or not, the solution to every problem in GW is finding a good guild.

7 Heroes does not discourage PUGs because those who hate to PUG are not gonna ever PUG with the 3 Hero limit either. 3 Hero limit has zero effect on encouraging PUGs.

And even if it did, (but it doesn't) 7 Heroes still should be implemented because the back of the GW box states it's the individual's choice to play solo if he wants to. GW is not meant to be about "team effort" for those who did not choose for it to be. Especially not with PUGs. At least until Anet officially retracts the statement on the back of the GW box stating that it's supposed to be a personal choice to play solo, not a "forced to PUG against your will" game.

Those who love to PUG should not be able to dictate to to those to hate to PUG that their choice of how to play the game should be gimped. Especially because the Hero fans are not ever gonna be playing with those who love to PUG anyhow, and thus their "reasons" for keeping Heroes gimped to 3 have no actual affect on anything whatsoever, other than to annoy a lot of players.

It should also be noted that those who love to PUG also don't have any right to tell people who hate to PUG to go play other games instead. Those who love to PUG can just as well go play other games instead. Their gameplay choice is not "superior" or "more valid" to the gameplay choice of those who hate to PUG, so they should stop acting like it is.

Anet has already said "no" to having 7 heroes... so why is this discussion still going on?

Do you know why they said no?

This is one of the reasons I will not be buying GW2, that along with the endless line of nerfs. Why give players a just enough of a good thing to make them need more to truely make it viable, but not do it. If they wanted people to pug then they should not have added hencies from the start.

Gw works fine as a single player rpg, you might not think so, but your thoughts have very little to do with my fun. I enjoy gw solo with h/h.

So far no one has given a good reason why 7 heroes is bad. seems like anet and anets fanatic fanboys just like to limit the enjoyment of those who's tastes differ from themselves.

If anet is unwilling to give fans what they want then why would the fans give anet what they want? GW2 is looking like it will have less players than gw1 at this rate. Ignore the fans, and the fans will eventually find a new game to play that anet has nothing to do with. WoW is successful because they give fans what the fans want. Anet could learn a lesson from them.



The problem with this is, If you find an adult guild who are mature and helpful, they are almost never on due to work,school, family life and other responsibilities. Different time zone's and playing hours impact the ability to play together too. Kid guilds are online more than adult guilds, as kids have less responsibilities than adults and normally have atleast alittle more time. But in a kid guild the immaturity, greed, endless bragging and other failings of youth are a constant bother for some of us who have grown up past these childish phases.

I am in a pretty adult guild with mostly mature people, but again they are never online when I am online, I have been in about 7-8 guilds since i started playing, I left 5 of those guilds due to scammers, braggers, jerks or beggers. I left 2 other guilds due to non activity, they played while I slept, I played while they slept. and 1 guild booted me for not playing daily or having the build they thought I should be using.

So saying "find a good guild" is like saying "find 100k in pre" its nearly impossible nor is it worth the trouble.

Like I said, you can do most missions with heroes and henchies and only need another player in a couple for the bonus mostly. And yes it is possible to find one person to help. Perhaps you are not in a guild but there are plenty of guilds advertising. If you can't even make one friend in a game this size I think you have a personal problem.

And honestly if you really want a single player rpg then perhaps you should play a single player rpg...

GW IS a single player rpg,and it is also a multiplayer rpg, Its up to the player how they choose to play it. I'v beaten all the games with H/H. I think I played 3 missions with a friend and thats it. So find something new to say.

I just love the idea of it because it reminds me of RPGs like final fantasy where you can modify each person in your team.

Sure, the game wasn't meant to be played like FF, but if they added in more reasons to party or use henchies, I feel people would still use them.

And that's all it advertised that you could solo, it did not advertise that you needed or would even get 7 heroes, in fact origionally it didn't even advertise heroes at all. So, you already got more than you deserved since you had henchies to choose from to begin with. They gave you 3 heroes you could build on your own and that's all you're going to get as that's all they've advertised now.

So, go solo (as advertised). It's easy to do.

The ELITE zones weren't meant to be played with henchies. They are meant for grouping. If you want 6 heroes you still have to group with someone. Plus even though you get those other heroes you don't have individual control over them so they are nothing more than super uncontrollable henchies. Plus one less in the group since if your friend leaves there's only 7 of you left. Solo all of the ELITE areas with these groups? Specially DOA? HAH I think not. You might do FOW and possibly UW, but, I highly doubt you get very far in the others. Nope just wasn't meant to be. Meant for you to group with HUUUUUMAAANS play together get stuff together and use UB not heroes.

I don't think anet knew playing with people would suck so bad, So they should compensate players with additional heroes so that we get what we want. If an area allows a party of 8, I want 7 heroes, If an area allows a party of 12, I want 11 heroes, If an area allows a party of 20, i want 19 heroes.

What difference does it make to people who dont use heroes anyways? Why are they so against it? I say play the game how you want and I will do the same, What buisness is it of theirs how I play or who I play with? If players stop with in-game abuse, and all the unneeded BS that comes with player parties everyone would probably not use heroes and henchies, But since that will never happen and Jerks will forever be a part of the community I see no reason why Anet is unwilling to add in this option that many of us want, Unless ofcourse they wish to drive off a portion of their player base.

I think anti hero players simply want to subject others to their abuse so they can entertain themselves. Which is not a valid reason

Things change in the game all the time, mostly for the worse. Skill nerfs, loot scaling, extreme event lag and skipped events in districts due to errors. Anet is ok with these things and they are harmful, adding heroes is reasonable and it would not affect anyone but the players using them.

But this discussion is going no where fast. I would like to have more heroes but I can live without them. Either way I will not be forced to play by someone elses standards. I know many people who are fed up with Anets bs, and are not going to support gw2 or anything ncsoft or anet releases just as they no longer support battlenet or blizzard for their ill treatment of the fans. Whats the point of playing a game that promotes more frustration than enjoyment?

So enjoy it while it lasts, which wont be long if things keep up as they are.

What about an alternative to 7 heros....

What if they bumped up the max lvl of heros, say to 24 while requiring a quest for each lvl above 20 rather than gaining exp?

Another option would be to remove the attribute cap of 12(before runes) and allow a Hero to spend as many points as possible into one attribute?

While these options would still require Hench to be used the buffed up Hero's should more than make up for the bad AI/Skill bars of the Hench.


What other options are there to improve the game for those that play solo while not hindering those that play with friends?

Having a full party of heroes would in no way hinder people who play with friends.

adding more quests, attribute increases, level increases would require more work than allowing 7 heroes.

allowing 4 more heroes would not be a lot of work nor would it have any harmful effects to an already weak social community. The only difference is that instead of henchmen you would have heroes. Nothing more, nothing less. The game is already broken in many many ways, Anet will not fix it, Hence GW2, but they could atleast make the game more appealing to those of us who do not need to be surrounded by other people to feel important or to show off. And those who just like to play with friends wont be bothered either way.

What would happen if those players who play alone began playing in groups with others just to fail the group? it would become so frustrating for those who just want to socialize that they would then begin requesting additional heroes so the soloer's would stop aggroing 3-5 mobs at once.

Granted you can ignore, boot them from party, but how many times would this happen? Maybe these people would wait til near the end of the mission then fail the party just to futher the frustration level. I'm not advocating this, nor am I the one who put this thought in my head, But if PvE'ers get what they want in PvE, maybe they wont go to PvP just to ruin your win. Maybe there would be less leroy jenkins in each group. Maybe each type of player could begin to truely enjoy the game like never before.

Guildwars is about to change, one way or the other. And I fear for its future. Hostility breeds Hostility, Respect breeds Respect.