A discussion on 7 heroes

Yes, most content will be soloable (as in alone). They mentioned each character being allowed having one companion which they could use at cost of reduced stats.

I always wondered why I find games that I can solo on my own boring.

I miss Minsc and Boo

yep I believe I did, however it's not as bad as you might think I agree that it was over powered, but did not justify the overwhelming nerf it got to the point that's not used anymore, to all intent and purpose removing from the game rather than properly balance it so that it was still fun to use, but they didn't do that they just axed it ruining the enjoyment some got out of using it.

It required slow changes to it to find the right balance, some test weekends with the new skill changes did they do that nope.

Of course people will use the most inbalanced farming build they can, the AI itself is imbalanced as well you know, although they say 2 wrongs do not make a right but in this case it's a unfeeling computer AI that doesn't give a damn so why should we ?

Heroway will only get you so far after that it's a cacophony of 'fail' in there current state, which is supposed to inspire me to what? find a PuG? (none to be found), find a guild (got one and I refuse to leave it), use consumables ? (why should I waste gold on that when the mechanics of the game should allow me to do it -all- without exception with any method I so choose, be it a rare PuG / H/H / 2 players + heroes whatever that choice might be.)

After what I've seen in FoW with the last PuG I went on yesterday I'm not surprised people have resorted to using h/h, this group had it all from over agro to male genitals on the radar, then I remembered why I quit doing it a year or so ago and thought yep good plan.

Great Scott! I'm so walking away from that.

Just call guild wars to an end now:

http://www.perfectworld.com/ad

Enjoy.

Downloads..... that looks stunning.

If I'd clicked any quicker or harder the mouse would have embedded itself into the floor boards.

O I SEE, now i know why none of your post make sense, Your a ursan type of guy. their are many reasons why ursan needed to be nerfed, as soon as it was gymsets, ABs, even ecto went up, the next day.

so why do you think people will flock back to the game if you add 7heros?



you mean like in ToA right?






had to stop it right there. what happen to "make new builds with 7 heros?"
yea yea blame it on the AI, "yes i typed IA 1st XD" the reason your still in the game is cause it was hard for you to do, not cause it was easy and the AI slowed you down.

what else are you going to waste it on? Cons are a needed counter to get money out of the game.




yea it is, its called good builds that dont have over lapping skills


if you hate the H/H AI so much, and dont like pugs or playing with people, why are you playing the game?

You pretty much nail it for me, bhavv.

In the game Dungeon Siege II, this aspect of the NPC party was actually done pretty well: you had a maximum party size of 4 (including yourself), but the NPC interactions and voice dialogue differed depending on which ones you had with you, as did certain quests. DSII was not a great game, imo, but they handled the NPC aspect of it really well.

I will miss that feature in GW2: customizable NPCs with at least (some!) personality and individual idiosyncracies. Guild Wars does better than most games -- and certainly all other online games -- at incorporating and recognizing how much fun it is to create, customize, and manage a small party of NPCs. Despite the fact that GW, with this kind of structure, has been a great success, ANet seems to be backing away from this in order to be more like all the other MMOs. I find this mind-boggling.

The GW heroes are the culmination of this -- and I will sorely miss them in GW2. I can't count the number of times in WoW and LOTRO I have felt like running a dungeon or completing a group quest and, when I finally had the time to do it, finding a group was too frustrating and time-consuming so I just gave up. Even now, I usually just "level past" instance/dungeon content because those areas require player party formation: for an already time-consuming instance, taking precious game time to "just form a party" and spam stupid messages like "Need Healer" for 15-20 minutes makes me crazy; I just hate that kind of thing.

Adding a 7-heroes feature to GW1 would make it simply the best game of its type anywhere. I have never looked at GW as a multiplayer game but rather as a largely single-player game that can be played in multiplayer mode if and when you want to. This (and its buy-now, play-forever, no-subscription model) is what, imo, sets GW apart from the pack of other big online games more than any other feature. It saddens me that ANet is abandoning this for a more, 1-hench NWN kind of setup in GW2. But I am more or less in wait-and-see mode on that score. If GW2 is as soloable as they claim it will be, then it will still be better (from my perspective) than WoW or even LOTRO.

Maybe someday some bright and forward-thinking MMO manufacturer is going to recognize that a great many people love customizable AI party-based adventuring, with a multiplayer option, and will develop a new and improved but very GW1-like online game. Here's hoping!

Very good game but just remember it's still in beta so it's not very polished at the moment. Am sure there are a lot of changes to come for this game, just like how guild wars has changed over the years.

Yep, the timezone issues suck! Whenever I'm on the districts are empty no matter where I go. Probably the most important reason to add 7 heroes is simply for those of us in the Southern Hemisphere who find it vitually impossible to get full PUG teams because of the times we play. All the American and British players have it fine because they play around the same time, but those of us who don't just have a really hard time of it, and I'm sure Aussie and NZ players are in a minority of the GW population.

Off topic, feel free to add me to your friends list. We might be able to do some stuff together as you'll probably play similar times to me.

Yeah I just downloaded it and had a toy around with it, very nice game indeed blows GW out of the water in some areas, it being beta I don't want to be too harsh on it but graphics wise GW is still superior to it, as for henchmen or the alike haven't seen anything of it if it even exists, and if it doesn't then it's more of JDRyder's cup of tea than mine, but I'll give it a fare whack of the play stick before I pass final judgment.

Yep even in the same time zones my own guild mates couldn't keep with the amount of time I was playing the game, I would literally get up play GW and then go to bed, with 2-3 hours break somewhere in there to perform the mundane chores of life, I've had the message you've been playing for 2 days and 14 hours please take a break, well I did when I was done capping all the elites a 6-8 months one.

Hehehe, I already did before you said I could wasn't going to message you or anything (although now I might because I have permission), I do it from time to time when someone has posted there ign to see if there still playing the game, and there opinions are coming from actual fact of the current status quo of the game or there basing it on past history, you can tell this if there account never goes active, of course I might be missing the times there on but JDRyder for example not a blip, and I am normally on when the Americans would be most active too odd that.

Basically my play time is anywhere between 1pm-6am (NZ Time) the next day, if I'm not on a roll on something I'll be on randomly during that time.

Here is another idea, if we can already just buy a second account and run with a six heroes team by having main on second account join your group with three heroes and leave which is what I am going to do. Then why just doesn't Anet just offer a special extended hero account that unlocks your ability to run with seven.

I mean If people can already run with six, and do, what is the big deal about unlocking a full seven? Besides they would make some extra money and their customer base will be happier for it, a win/win!

I've done that myself the trouble is Heroes are weak at the best of time you can pull though okay if you have the right build and tactics even so, but -1 person can lead to larger problems, I've thought about it a lot actually as with all good software design is key to it working properly.

It is feasible to send input to the 2nd account AutoHotKey for example does this very efficiently, so with some effort you could for example send the key press (number pad) 1 and then SPACEBAR, which would force the 2nd account into following the first member of the team or you could set it to any number actually, when you call a target on your lead account the message is sent to the 2nd to press T.

Going further it's not entire impossiable to create and force the 2nd account to act as if it was a Hero, this however is border line botting which is also against the EULA, except I don't give a rats ass about that I brought content to play it not to sit day in day out watching people looking for farming, and might if pushed put finger to my compiler and start knocking some design code out.

Of course it would be darn sight easier for ArenaNet to actually do it for me.

well maybe hero cap could be removed on areas that are IMPOSSIBLE to find sucky pugs that anet loves

for example everykind of vanquish
or every kin dof hardcore activity???

You've only made claim after claim with little to no back up. You stated that 7 heroes would cause further harm to pugs, and when confronted why you said because many would suddenly switch over to heroes. But as I've shown you through numerous examples, this would not be the case.

Here are my two biggest reasons of why I don't think 7 heroes

-Heroes are far from easy to use. To use them to their best proficency, you have to outfit them accordingly to the best detail with the appropriate runes. You need to know how to put together skills from different professions. You need to *have* all those skills for those builds. You have to know what skills are used right by Heroes. And you have to know how to deal with hero/hench AI. Quite frankly that's a shit load of work, especially moreso given the fact that we're talking about the average player.

-Again, PvE skills. You may not think they're needed since you think the game is already "too easy" (read below for my comments on that), but they're PvE-only for a very good reason: they, in themselves, make up for a lack of player skills. More than 3 PvE skills in a team > 3 PvE skills in a team, and that is simply irrefutable.

Way to take my Bioware example entirely out of context. That aside, simply being "multiplayer" is not going to keep your game alive. WoW wouldn't be anywhere near where it is now without so many frequent updates and additions. In layman's terms, being able to play with other people isn't going to keep your game immortal.

I will admit, though, that I don't know what "multiplayer games" you're comparing Guild Wars to. PvE is a very different form of multiplayer than PvP, and this applys to every online game. If StarCraft could only be played online with other players against a CPU and not against each other, do you think it'd be as popular as it is now?

Or he'll say "nooo your doin it wrong".

Some people just don't ever learn, no matter how many times you drive the nail through your head.

It sure did, and it's just one of the many reasons why I don't think 7 heroes will hurt the game : p You've just strengthened my point.

Wow, how long have you been posting with such a skewed perspective of the playerbase? The game is far from easy, we're just not bad players.

Granted, you do lose people when the game is too easy, but you also lose people when it's too hard and inaccessible. That's why you'll usually see me promoting easing up the elite areas in Normal Mode while at the same time slightly reducing the rewards, saving the "real goodz" and challenges in Hard Mode.

You learn from English class. When it's in quotations (like "this") it means that you're not supposed to take the subject matter in it's entirety or it's meant to be read in a sarcastic manner. When I *star* it or italicize it, it's a sign of emphasis, i.e. a keyword.

you mean like anet? its guru, and its only 5 or 6 people posting here, who cares who agrees with who.

yes it will harm pugs cause you still need other people for some areas, and just cause i have a few reasons, does not many any of them are wrong.


its not hard to become UAX, most people just buy UAX, and i dont put runes or any thing on my heros and do just fine, as far as weps, i just give them w/e i loot, some still have their starter weps.

They are pve only to give a reason for titles, and no you dont need them, they do not give you a big enough boost to really matter.



new players keep Wow up and running as well as hype, and no heros "had to add that XD" Every 1 i met that has played WoW said they only played it cause there were a lot of players in it and didnt really like it, and 1 good friend said he played it cause all MMOs suck and may as well play the 1 with more money if your going to play a MMO. I stopped cause it was boring leveling up just to have to remake of you dont like the class, in GW you can play every thing, with only 2-5hrs "longer in NF" of leveling

and how is bioware out of context?

Is the PvP in GW now, err was the pvp in GW good even when pve sucked? matter of fact the times you think pve was really bad "before heros" was when pvp was at its top. I dont think any 1 would play the pve in starcraft and their be a thread just like this in some starcraft forum about people wanting to be able to play online by their selfs with people telling them to just play the game in SP mode, something GW does not have.



no if the other guy is doing it better, he'll say "o i get it" if not thats why i said in the quote above that "no, hes not bad, hes retarded" if you sitting there watching some1 else do something way better then the way you have been doing it and you still say your way is better, your retarded

o no.... 0.5% of the people playing guild wars will not learn, what ever will we do....



who do you want them to pug with? every 1 else is using heros that know how to do it ...........



no the game is easy.

no you lose people when you make games harder like CoD does, giving NPCs 500 nades that they spam if you dont move out your cover so you get shot, Guild wars did this in a way giving bosses skills that cast faster than they should, and giving them 50 in some atts that kill you in 1 hit.

before you say it, yes a lot of people play CoD1-4, online.. with other players...


k so why were your quoting random words "like" this.

You know what will happen don't you ? it's called wiki, but then at least your looking at the bar even if for only a moment, personally I read all the skills get a clue how it's supposed to work and then decide if that will work for me, if all those checks and balances are fine then I keep it else I modify it accordingly.

Or he'll look at his heroes as I once did and got an idea of what I should be doing now of course I'm far more developed than those days, and now call that wrong but it gave me a stepping stone to be right.

- oddly as I thought GW is over the assassin poster fell off the wall just as I finished the thought.

You need to know about wiki. And you need to use it, and need to know how to filter bad builds.

Your average "PUG" does not know how about PvX wiki and does not have judgment to filter out terribad stuff. And he has to decide to use it instead of being pwetty snowflake. And they can always mod build to be worse.

Even skill unlocks are not that easy: it would cost 64k and some skillcaping for elites at trainer to get one teambuild. Skillpacks are not exactly cheap either. Sure, you get tons of skills free with heroes and there is a lot of low hanging fruit that can be unlocked fact and cheap, but they are not always what you want to use.

Armor upgrades, Weapons, etc, lack of unlocks and thus lack of flexibility ...

Average "Johny pugger" is better of pugging.

If there were 7 heros, it wouldn't change my play style. I still never party with people. What's wrong with me?

Ask Dr. Phil otherwise known as DJRyder he seams to know what is wrong with everyone

I actualy find JDRyder quite entertaining! Even more crazy I agree with some of his points.

I wouldn't know I've had him on ignore for quote awhile now so I don't see the drivel he writes even if it is entertaining, not that I mind differing points of view but at least back them up with some sort of reasonable conclusions that are at least hard to break.

I'm even more convinced 2 weeks ago they released MOX right? guess what the Honor Hill is now devoid of almost a single person everyone rushed it ASAP now there is no one to PuG that with and that is a NEW quest.

i lol'ed irl, to bad im not getting payed for this D:

no, if some 1 does not think 100% like you, you will disagree and mute them

plus, who talks about people when they have them muted :P,

Mox helps my points, and its already old to some people.

Well, if you have him on ignore, how are you ever going to get well?

I find JDRyder's points interesting and sometimes I agree with him (her?), too -- but I still want my seven heroes, just for the fun they would provide.

New hero Mox? Well, ok. That's sorta nice, ANet, I guess, except that if I only get to bring three heroes with me, a derv (or assassin) is gonna be just about my last choice, frankly -- however cool he looks.

That is what makes me think there is something there not telling us.

ignoring thing well when I was replying to him the posts where getting more heated with each post, I could have choose to either drag the conversation down into verbal abuse and utterly derail the thread or I could ignore him I didn't ignore him just on differents of opinion alone, the fastest way to earn my ignore is to not at least meet half way on an argument to dogmatically state that your opinion arrogantly rules and mine is of no value or too drive me to that impression.

My guess is that if I and he where the only ones playing the game he'd have a completely different point of view entirely, because I certainly would not party with him.

Yes, MOX indeed does help you with your point as last step of quest chain required said hero in party to complete.

Just like other quests and missions that require hero in party and automatically out-compete human in party on that slot because you must have them to proceed.

Which is the only objective reason to choose hero over human.

Now that you see is where the plot thickens, I dislike having to replace human slots with mandatory heroes to complete a mission or quest, I want to play it my way with my selections be that with 7 heros, 7 people, or any mixture of them I do not want to handicap myself with known heroes that have broken AI.

I had him on ignore before this thread and out of curiosity removed his listing. He may have some points but it's just too bad that he can never listen to what others have to say, except for the parts that he uses to attack their viewpoints on. He'll never accept anything besides his own truth.

There are no objective reasons, only preferences. As long as you (and Ryder) do not see this and keep qualifying your own view as the only, objective and reasonable view, while thereby attempting to disqualify any other views and opinions, the debate will never end, you will never understand others and they will not be inclined to listen to you either.

7 heroes are good for the occasional "oh well my friends aren't on and I'm bored", or for PvPers that can't make friends.

But seriously, why do you all need so many heroes? Isn't Guild Wars all about doing shit with your Guilds, or at least your friends??

That's what I was trying to say thank you.

Can't speak for everyone here but my guild/friends that I used to do so much with have gone some return now and then but they have there own things they come on for, make new friends I just don't feel like it because I don't want the depression of seeing them 6 months later offline and not playing.

whats not to get about people not wanting to play with other players cause they think they are to good for others?

by that logic, we need to remove all heros from game cause im to lazy to add them to my party.


o yea, yay for people h8ing on the internets

You see, you haven't read a single post and keep holding on and repeating whatever it is that goes on in your own mind. That's why it's a pointless waste of time to try to have a dialog or discussion with you.

no its cause thats what your saying, "pugs are bad and cause they are bad you dont want to play with them."

*Raises hand*

I quit WoW because I hated my gaming experience being dependent on other people. I bought GW because it promised otherwise. So you think wrong.

*tells to put hand down* why cant you go solo now? how is not having 7heros stopping you

same now that i think about it, other than the raids and stuff that were made for groups of people "like DoA in GW" you dont really need people to do most of the quest etc in WoW.

Can't speak for WoW completely, but on my experience with it you could solo most content from what I've seen.

I do believe that the hero need should be removed though, such as a few Nightfall missions, Xandra and Kahma, and M.O.X. Sometimes you do get full human parties, but you'll have to exclude someone because of the hero need.

There is no need for 7 heroes, but it is something nice. 3 heroes is also nice, and so are henchmen. These are not necessities, and nor are PvE skills either, so why not remove them? Human parties will always be more fun than H/H parties in the first place (Heck, single player games are so friggin' boring to me.) and I am not denying that you need anything. PvE is mostly easy, so why not just remove everything we don't need? I'd like to see 7 heroes just so I could steamroll everything without the need for parties at times I can't get anyone to come, but it's also not necessary. As far as I can see it only holds good if it gets implimented.

That's all that you read? I think I said that hero's aren't the cause of PuGs failing and if I said something about PuGs I am certain I must have said something beyond 'bad' (actually I didn't even used that word to describe them recently) and explained a bit about why I don't like to play with them. Others have mentioned their reasons, but that escaped your attention.

You will not succeed in convincing people to go back to PuGs by ignoring why they don't like to play in PuGs (anymore).

POST WAAARZ

I'm at work and bored. Sorry mods!

You just admitted I'm right. You simply reiterated your claims, zero proof, zero back up, zero anything.

Until you do this, until you give actually *good* reasons why heroes are bad *and* you refute what I've said earlier (which you still haven't done, you've simply said "NUH UH!"), anything you say will have little to no merit. All you've done is chop up my posts and attack them out of context while still ignoring your biggest flaw: You have not shown me how adding 7 heroes would be damaging.

Not a safe assumption, since most people - not just in Guild Wars, but in the world - aren't very comfortable giving their credit card information over the internet. Not to mention people don't like having to spend more money on a game than is needed.

All in all, it's quite a lot of preference, but it's not very accurate saying "most of the GW population has purchased the UAX pack."

You heard it here first, folks: Save Yourselves, Cry of Pain, There's Nothing To Fear, and many more OP PvE skills don't give you a big enough boost to "really matter".

Wooooooow. How about instead of saying "NO!" as a counter argument, you actually counter my argument?

Let me go first so you can get an idea:

Example 1: Party X and party Y are both in the Realm of Torment. In total, Party X only has 3 copies of Lightbringer's Gaze in the party. Party Y, on the other hand, has everyone bring a copy of Lightbringer's Gaze on their bar resulting in 8 Lightbringer's Gazes, resulting in quite a hefty amount of damage. Q: Which party is going to have an easier time in the Realm of Torment?

Example 2: Party A and party B are both going to go into Slaver's Exile at the same time. The Warriors in Party A only have "Watch Yourselves!" for defense, while both of Party B's Warriors have both "Watch Yourselves!" *and* "Save Yourselves!". Q: Which party is going to have an easier time of success?

Haha, oh WOW. First, who does Blizzard keep in mind when designing the raids and other endgame content? The newbies, the people who are halfway through leveling, the people who are only in greens and blues for their whole time at cap? No, it's all aimed towards the much more hardcore, long-standing portion of the playerbase.. Second, where do you think that hype comes from in the first place? From a large and continuous amount of content that WoW frequently sees.

My Bioware point from way back when simply stated that you don't have to have people on your game 24/7 to get them to buy the next one. Bioware is simply just one of thousands of examples: If you enjoyed something from a company, any product, than you're likely to buy it from them again.

You'll have to rewrite this, because it makes zero sense.

I will say, though, that Guild Wars has had a single-player mode from the very beginning: Henchmen. Heroes only make it easier for people with higher skill thresholds.

Good, so we can't worry about those "bad people" still refusing to ditch their "bad" heroes, something you said earlier that was something 7 heroes would cause?

You just keep flipping arguments. First you didn't want 7 more heroes because it would somehow discourage less people to pug, then you stated that it was too easy, now it's that the "good players" don't want to pug?

Either way, you just contradicted yourself: The pugs shouldn't have much of a problem because the game is easy, right?...Right???



No, wrong.

No, you're just ignorant. Stop making baseless claims. If the game was "so easy" the wiki wouldn't see so much use, ANet wouldn't have added the /help or /wiki commands, the campfire would have 0 posts in it, there would be no PvE split, and things like PvE skills wouldn't exist.

You lose more people when that's the *only* way to play it. If God of War was always set on God Mode it would be a different story, but that's not the case. It's what every smart game developer (not even "smart", it's more "not stupid") is doing: Providing *choice*. If it's too hard, then lower the difficulty, simple. If it's too easy, boost it up and give yourself more of a challenge. The problem lies when it's either *only* too easy or *only* too hard that it becomes bad. But difficulty settings are, quite frankly, genius.

...AGAINST each other. NOT in a co-op mode, not in a "play against deh AIz!" mode, not in a terrorist hunt. They play *against* each other in hard, fast, brutal team or free-for-all deathmatches. PvP, while not always to everyone's tastes, will always provide larger replayability (save for very rare cases).

You just ignored what I said, dude. They're not random. You're simply not reading correctly.

As to why I'm still replying here: I'm seeing how long it takes before I actually get an answer. All I've had is personal attacks, post chop ups, and in general things that further stall his answer.

In WoW, the only things you can solo are the explorable areas. To see the same thing in Guild Wars you would have to remove henchmen and disallow the use of heroes in every mission outpost.

Yes, you could "solo" WoW, but that content is pretty much at the bottom of the tree.

Oh, and in regards to the "group" elite content in GW: All you need is 1-2 other people who know their shit with heroes, although many find it just much easier to get a group of people for them (pro 7 heroes, in other words).

JDRyder: Ponder about this, would you really want to play with someone who would ditch you for AI if it was viable for him? I wouldn't.

True and False. You can get far by soloing but it is much grindier way to do stuff. Grouping and doing group-based content gives you much faster quest completition, xp rate, better equipment, etc etc ... And since wow is game where levels and equipment matter big deal ...

Yes, being forced to take hero instead of player is bad.

this would really be amazing to have 7 heroes
i always have to use 3 heroes, 4 hench
and the hench are freaking stupid cant even control their skills or anything