A discussion on 7 heroes

well I beleive the quote in the post above is true
EXCEPT the heroes playing good part because it is impossible

ALL OTHER SHOULD BE POSSIBLE
cmon why heroes would be lesser than human

well this topic has been beaten quite viciously and I've commented on it several times (not sure about this particular thread but the topic has been around for some time now). I'm sure I'll just be reiterating comments others have already made but never the less wanted to add my two cents (again).

I personally felt that the game wouldn't see the 7 hero's until the active player base had dropped signifigantly enough to warrant it. Considering the current state of the game and sheer size of all 3 campains with EOTN, it's probably come to that point. Unless you're in a "popular" area, it's quite difficult to form any sort of PUG. If the suggestion of using your guild or friends list comes up - my comment would be "what about the old players?".

I've been playing this game from the WPE in Oct '04 (so just shy of 4years now). My guild was formed in those Prophicies beta's and I've made quite a few friends along the way. Thing is, alot of them have slowly moved on. Real life catches up, things change, game looses some of it's appeal etc. In my case, I'm a father working at least a minimum 40hr work week. I come home and spend time with my g/f and kids, do my chores etc. and then if I'm lucky/ not too tired, I might hop on GW for a small period of time (which is infrequent and inconsistant at best). When I do, I tend to find that a majority of guild mates have been in the same boat (on infrequent and inconsistant) and that I've got a mostly greyed out friends list. At this point, I'm not actively looking to find a new guild or friends to play with (nor would I leave the guild I'm with) because I can't commit to any schedules or frequent play. Even if I were to make the odd new friend, It would be unfair on my part to expect that; in meeting these new people, they would be willing to wait for me in completing tasks we start together(and I'm sure many of you have done and re-done things for friends and guildies because they aren't available the first time). Just like I wouldn't want them to wait for me, I don't want to limit what I can do waiting for them. When I hop on, I'd like to toss myself into something casual, whether that be a title farm, some random PvE or some sort of casual PvP and then hop back out. There aren't many (if any) circumstances that I haven't been able to complete with the H/H but some of the "more difficult" areas often take much longer or even require additional attempts due to the limitation of the hench. That in itself is a pain since I'm on the limited time scale. Having the additional hero's would make the more daunting tasks fesible for the casual player like myself (and when this game was first promoted, a casual player was a focus. Skill over time.)

Personally, I've always wanted and suggested the 7 hero group for one of the enjoyments this game provides. The "build" dynamic. Creating individual builds and team builds has always been a lot of fun and the idea of creating a team build for specific PvE areas (and ones that the AI can use) has a lot of appeal to it. It also marries with the skill over time phlosophy that was initially promoted. In it's own irony, a PUG can be often considered time over skill. Granted PvE skills are powerful but expecting players to be UAS (or max/ sufficent rank in title) and able to provide the necessary builds/ equipment is often unreasonable. Unless VOIP is available, you can often expect limited communication on top of varying degrees of experience and skill per player as well as differences of opinion on play itself. PUGs also often stereotype classes and builds for certain areas due to speed or success. All these tend to add up to lost time, multiple attempts and bad experiences. Over the past (almost) 4 years, to have that sort of impression of a PUG group has to come from somewhere (and keep in mind that this game lived off the PUG experience for the first couple years).

elk

If you have read carefully, Elite area is only 1 of the concern.

-Experiencing build
-When guildies are off-line
-When guidies don't want to do the same things are me
-When you are in 80% of the town in GW that are empty
-For doing quest. Have anyone done a quest with pugs in the last 2 years ?
-For the fun !!!
-Have somethings else the Dual shot pew pew !!
-Too Vanquish area !!!
-Too do cartographie, can we pug the carto title ??
-Too taaa kkk eee myyy tiiimmmee doing thhhinnnggss !!!

woot !!!

Given the currently huge and massive scope of Guild Wars - and that you need a party for *every single area in the game* - I feel that anything over a required party size of 1 is too much. Fighting with a handful of other assorted adventures sounds awesome on paper, but when you have to have that done for 100% of the game? Not good game design.

Many people praise GW for it's "unique idea" of henchmen and heroes, but without them - especially the henchies - this game would be utter shit. If it weren't for them I think I'd be at about one tenth of where I'm at now.

Either way, I'm glad this is being solved for GW2. Having the whole game soloable (save for what sounds like the raids) is a *huuuuuuge* step in the right direction.

lol Ursan, lol GWEN titles, lol consumables. It's an old post, anyways.

Thank you for those points as it's been said time and time again no 7 heroes because solo play is already well supported and they just are not required plus as I said before it could lead to even more people pugging less as it would entice others to look a 7 hero play even harder than they do now because that would be an ungodly group then with player input to exploit everything they could think of. Good call Anet stick to your guns on this.

What's the real worry about having 7 heroes other than "they're not needed"? Assume, arguendo, that Anet could implement 7 heroes for no effort - just wave a magic hero wand and "poof!" - where is the downside? Are people just afraid that they won't have anyone to play with? Could it really be as childish as that?

You really didnt read the previous posts, did you?

I think he did the arguments put forth by ArenaNet are semi-valid, meaning they where valid when they was spoken over a year ago now there invalid, because the community has moved into uncharted areas, what does happen to the community when it no longer see content that is purchasable? it either does the following, 1) Dies 2) Dies Over Time or 3) Finds something in the game to keep them playing, we're at (2) the only time we see activity is when (3) happens and people hear about it, there will come a time when those that hear about it won't care.

Example: MoX Honor hill had it of been released a year ago would have been packed 24/7 for quite a few weeks with people gathering together to do the quests, and districts into the 50's plus.

What did we see 5 districts max for about a week then empty.

I consider every elite area beyond Prophecies to be an utter waste of resources and time, what is the point in having them if no one plays them at least (Usran) allowed them to be played, now look at them empty as the design teams head.

It would've been a pretty solid "shut up and read this" if it wasn't over 13 months dated. As is, though, I take it with a grain of salt.

why dont we just give every1 what they want? Thats more childish imo.

Yeah, I spend a lot of time and effort fussing over my Heroes, trying out builds I'm interested, just to see how the build works out. Just recently, I created my first Necromancer, and his build was based on what I had learned from using Olias.

heroes make great test beds for builds you want to learn about...

Expecting - or even demanding - others to put up with the selfish and jerkish behaviour that is so prevalent in PuGs is childish.

People will not join a (random) PuG if they can avoid it and rather H/H everything. It is unrealistic to think that more heroes will keep them away from PuGs, as unrealistic as it is to expect they'll buy and play GW2.

I could give countless examples of jerks in GW PuGs, even the runners are getting jerked around I've noticed too.

Thing is I don't want H/H everything but I'm not willing to put up with jerks either it's shame you can't get a ban for being a jerk so I do avoid it.

I've even gotten kicked on my ranger for bringing BHA to NoX and got called a noob! lmao.

You MUST be joking.

I truly wish I was.

If people are being jerks to you its has to be you being a jackass as well, I almost never have jerky pugs, i also dont call them names as shit and be rude.

Anet still hasn't come down from their ivory tower when it comes to the subject of 7 heroes it seems. I still think it's a missed opportunity for both Anet and the player base.

I also believe it's too late at this time, they missed the boat. If they wait till the population migrates to GW2, only a small part of the former player base will experience the joy of playing with 7 heroes.

If they implement 7 heroes before GW2, I think a lot of people wouldn't like playing with one companion only in GW2. It's a reason not to allow 7 heroes ever imo.

Awful logic. "I don't experience bad pugs, therefore NOBODY experiences bad pugs"? I thought we went over this fallacy.

Bryant, please stop responding to and quoting the troll as it (a) only feeds him and (b) bypasses our ignore lists. Thanks.

Hey AN, I've come to say that it's too late for 7 heroes, don't even try. You had your chance, you blew it with lame excuses, you f-ed up.

Hey, someone's gotta parent ;p If no one yells at him, he'll think his logic is sound. As is, he's already shut up about what his "original point" used to be.

How is it "too late"?

Im not saying that, im saying pugs are being jackasses to you guys most likely cause you are being jackasses to them, how is it any better to say "all pugs are jackasses" ?

Many people, me, my guildies and other have already quit. Allowing us to use 7 heroes now won't make us come back.

It's pretty much saying that if a random madman came into a bar, shot it up, and killed numerous people, that those people would be at fault.

You're pretty much saying that in no way is a pugger ever a jerk and that when they are it's our fault, and you back this up with your *very* limited view that you've never seen a "bad pugger".

So it's only too late for you and your buddies? Because that's a pretty subjective viewpoint to label for so many.

you didnt even read what I said, if your a jackass to people in return they will be jackasses to you.

I *did* read what you said. It's what you said earlier that's wrong:

It's that some people aren't treating anyone poorly in any way shape or form, and people are *still* being jackasses to them.

Granted, if you treat someone poorly you're going to likely be treated poor in return, but many are doing nothing that's deserving of such poor treatment.

so your calling yourself wrong? thats the same thing i said, all pugs are not jackasses and they will be jackasses if you treat them like a jackass.

your just trolling, you'd say im wrong if i said blue is a color.

No, just because.

Lets see the first day of playing Guild Wars started about 1-2 months after release new people here joining by the hour so I'm expected to be inexperienced the same way I am with the game experience from the next one I'm going to compare it too.

(First Week)
PuG 1 - Looked at my armor because it wasn't 'elite' - kick (FoW)
PuG 2 - Someone asked about my skill bar (I typed it back then) called every name under the sun - kick (UW)
PuG 3 - Abused in global chat that I was a poor player (well durr I've only been playing a week give me a break!)

Perfect World
(First Week)
There is none to report everyone has been very pleasant to deal with even overly helpful, you busy solo beating something up and a Cleric will fly over head notice your HP is low and buff you from on high to which I now return the favor, some say thanks others say nothing at all.

I have grouped with people they've been pleasant and very helpful.

So what is wrong people in guild wars from my point of view?
1. Too many skills over complicates the game, confuses new player and starts a bad experience by various people that think your a noob, - Solution 7 Heroes to avoid them.

2. It's an instanced world if you fail it's back to the outpost too much importants in getting it right first time or you've wasted your time. - Solution 7 heroes so you learn skills that don't make you a failure, and how they work together as a team.

3. The content is too large for an instanced based game the population when it starts to die off looks like it's a ghost town. - Solution 7 heroes so you can play they content you paid for.

I'm sure there are more but I don't want to make this post into a novel.

No sir.

Here's the situation: what if you joined a pug, everyone was silent, then all of a sudden some random guy started calling everyone assholes? By your logic, it's not his fault and someone else in the pug must've done something. The way you've worded it, said it, is pretty much saying "no one is a jerk unless you treat them as such" - which couldn't be more wrong. You're making a huuuuuuuuuge leaping assumption based off of one sample: your experience, and your experience does not equal everyone's experience.

Your reasoning is as bad as your spelling and punctuation. A large majority of people on GWGuru agree that they do not like PuG's and so by saying that, you think a large majority of guild war guru are jackasses? But that doesn't matter because you're basing your reasoning on a generalization from your experience with PuGs, whom are not jackasses.

Therefore its the experience of a large majority of Guild War guru's members verse yours and I have to say that because of this, you're wrong.

and your making a huge leap from my OP.


they are but thats what im saying.


so there are some jackass pugs but it does not mean they are all jackasses, as the OP said.

how am i wrong for saying if your a jackass to people they will be jackasses to you?

Hah, actually not really. I'm comparing by example to show that what you said much earlier:

-is horribly fallacious and a grossly exaggerated and stretched assumption.

Nor does it mean that NO pugs are jackasses, like YOU said.

You're wrong in saying that the only way someone is going to be a jerk to you in a pug is if you are a jerk to them.

If people are only jackasses because someone was one first, that means someone had to have been a jackass to the person first, and so on, and so forth ad infinitum. That logic is so hopelessly flawed it doesn't even warrant further discussion.

PUG's are either new, or veterans who are elitist. That is naturally a generally broad statement, however you'll find at least 90% of PUGS will be like that. Veteran players don't have the patience to babysit new players through the game. That's basically what it comes down to, therefore veterans will either choose only to pug with other veterans to ensure smooth gameplay; which consequently means the kicking of newbies because they haven't yet learned the proper skill usage etc, or veterans will choose not to PUG at all as it's a lot less hassle to H/H. There are other pug groups out there who are in the middle ground of less veteran, but not new players who simply demand cookie cutter builds before allowing you in the team.

Either way, PUGs don't actually have to be jackasses for the experience not to be enjoyable. I've been in a pug recently that were perfectly amiable. Lovely people, who I enjoyed being with very much, EXCEPT for the fact that we couldn't get a very simply mission done in 2 HOURS which took me 30 minutes to do frist time on the same character H/H.

The request for 7 heroes has only a very small amount to do with PUgs being jackasses. They don't have to be rude to make the pug experience bad. The players are simply all at different levels in the game who need different experiences to make this game enjoyable.

i didnt say that ..... i said when you act like a jerk to other people, in return they will act jerky to you as well.

Agreed, its true, most people dont want to play with players of lesser skill. I dont mind playing with lesser skilled players "In pve" IMO in Pve who cares as long as your having fun, its not a place for rage, build Nazi's, etc, and if you do rage etc in PVE get over it, your not playing for money.

It's good to see you revising your original statement, because that sure has hell wasn't what it originally stated.

While many could argue that time = money, I will say that it's always a huge kick in the balls to be doing a mission numerous times always to screw up near the end (THK).

I didnt revise shit, you were taking it out of context. I was talking to Amy and Inner who has said a few times in this thread part of the reason he does not pug is cause pugs are jackasses, if your pugs are always jackasses it has to be you, or your very unlucky when it come pugs. I didnt quote him cause I hoped people would use their heads and just know i was talking to him caus he just posted something that my post had to do with, but it seems that was to much to ask.
there are more post of Inner calling pugs jerks but Im not going to go back and look for all of them.


Sure people did fail THK a lot 3 years ago when the game just came out but now its not often i see a pug fail it. I Pug that mission a lot when im testing builds.

Looks like someone's pretty bad at reading.
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10325690
You think people in this thread are my buddies?

I think JDRyder is saying that if you are the type of person saying "PuGs suck" then chances are every PuG sucks because of you even if it doesn't suck. See what I did there?

i take it you also didnt read my post unless you were taking a piss there....