A discussion on 7 heroes

I would have to say that it depends on who's hands your putting them into - hence not easy for everyone, hence why more heroes will not turn more people away from pugs. If you give a person the opportunity to put more crap into a team build when they'd be much better off bringing henchies, it's definitely not going to make things easier.

This thread is still going? I guess it won't die till Anet does something.
I do actually believe now that 7 heros would cause even more decline in PuGging...PvE elitists obviously want them, but for people that understand GW is a GAME, this is not good...Some say it won't affect PuG but how is that possible? We don't have enough experienced players helping newbies as it is, let's not screw it even more.

You have to pay bills somehow I don't like it either but I'd pay for it, Perfect World everything is micro transaction but so far I've not seen anything in the that games shop that would prevent anyone completing the game if I found that I probably wouldn't play it, but your right thats a whole other thread unto itself.


In part it already is effecting PuGs I've sort decided unless they do something I won't play the game, I come online to help my wife out when she rarely plays it once in a blue moon when she can give a rats ass, even that is only for 30mins or so, also I won't take anyone else with me no matter how much you beg.

So I'm helping the community to it's own destruction if only in small part.

umm no, the henchmen already have crap builds, and knowing GW players 90% of the players will just copy some 0 micro build from pvx that would come out a few days after they added 7heros. Saying "people would only use crap builds" is wrong, as for micro, you already dont have to micro with H/H what makes you think you will have to with 7heros? All you have to do now to win pve is add discord to necros add few henchmen and T+space things.

Because unlike JDRyder, we believe that it might be possible for ArenaNet to change their mind. While I'm done with Guild Wars myself, I do want to support the full hero party, because it really would be a good addition to Guild Wars.

That was disconcerting, I thought this was one of my posts by the avatar >.>

...and started wondering why it had that stuff in it :P

First, who says I have to help these people? If these people had been forced to play the game solo maybe they would have learned to play the game but instead they have gotten a free ride through the game by depending on someone else to beat the game for them.

I am starting to think I am the only one that tries to help these people and the more I do it the worse it gets.

I can recount 3 times in the pass week I have felt sorry for people and offered to help them with missions. The first guy I am pretty sure just wanted to cause pugs grief. The second one attacked anything that he saw on radar and didn't know about interrupting with his ranger. The third listened and changed his build to fit my team of H/H and he actually helped.

Another thing when it is just two people and the rest of the team made up heroes and henchmen it is pretty easy to guess who is drawing the pictures on the radar.

PuG are idiots.

LOL, yeah I thought it was a good protest sign

In case you hadn't noticed, it's the elitists that oppose the 7 heroes, both the (self-proclaimed) top players and those with PvE oriented guilds. It's the not so bad, mediocre and casual player that asks for 7 heroes.

A game is for enjoyment, 7 heroes means more bars to create, teams to tune, less frustration, more fun and thus it would be good for the game.

Next time, please think before you post.

This has been rattling around in my head for awhile now it's an incomplete thought but I guess it's worth putting it out there, with an increase in heroes that can be taken it could all be it presumptuous that runners could use this for a gold making enterprise take 5 heroes built to combat the area, take 1 person charge X gold to do it.

However that's no different than what is currently available to pay to have ran at the moment anyway.

A player can run completely solo on most missions with the exception of a few where there is only 1 extra needed for the moment.

I actually would only see this as a positive thing, because more people would be able to run, thus undercutting the running prices which were never envisioned as part of the economy in the first place.

If it intruduced running I'd say yes, this is a problem. But running exists, and can be done by anyone solo now. And frankly, taking only one person and a team full of heroes wouldn't be economically viable as you don't get gold from more than one person. Runners currently try to fill their teams up with people being run to get at least 2k out of each of them. Doing a run by filling up with a team of heroes would just be a waste of time.

People are willing to pay a LOT for "dedicated runs" where they are the only runee and runs are much faster because there is no waiting for more customers, party is stronger, there is no payment drama, etc etc ...

Being able to join party, go afk for day or so and return with one full HM title is something worth a *LOT* moolah.

It is still not argument against 7h as such stuff is (and is gonna be) marginal.

Me included something I'm considering that the time I have to wait for groups to do something would be better spent gaining the gold to pay someone to do it for me, not because I don't want to do it myself I do, but I'm ham strung by henchmen that are retarded and rooted by no PuGs available, and guild that would better of named Dracula guild of dead, not to mention even if you get a PuG you could be wasting your time, so when all the check and balances are in your better off paying someone to do it for you.

I've been on a GW hiatus for a few months, 7 heroes might bring me back into the fold.

@ JDRyder

Don't forget we all know 7 heroes would be better then H/H. But we don't want 7 heroes to make the game easyer, we want them for the "fun"

Simply for the "FUN".

7 heroes, 1 heroes, 5 heroes and a half, we don't pug so to the ppl that don't pug give us 7 heroes for the "fun" (it's a game")

To ppl that pug, go open a new thread with suggestion on how to improve pugs. Heroes has nothing to do with party search and pugs quality (which are the reason pugs are dead)

making the game easier will not more fun in the long run, in the end your going to be just as bored with 7NPCs as you are with 7hero NPCs. It will be fun for a few days but its not going to "save" GW. There's almost nothing Anet can do to make the game more fun, only thing they can do is add more places like FoW for the other gods (or w/e you want to call them) The content is going to be the same with 7heros and its going to be just as boring.

Apparently, one way to improve PUGs is to get rid of heroes. Oi vey...

7 heroes> H&H> PUGs - this seems to be a fact of life in GW. You can read that list as "ease of play" and/or "element of fun" - for most people. Some people prefer PUGs, and that's great. If you enjoy it, go ahead! Myself, I prefer H&H. Far less frustration and better results. (Of course, that's only based on my own experience, and I am not an elite player by any means.)

I play the game for fun, and tweaking builds and seeing how they work is fun for me! I also have learned a lot about professions I don't usually play by using my hero and trying out the build on them.

But, this horse is dead. Beaten, flayed, and even the marrow sucked out. ANet has given no indication that they'll budge. Until they do, it's just a wish list.

Hey lookie, a perfect oppurtunity to go back to one of my original points which you have yet to refute. Remember this?:

So in summation:
-If a person doesn't know how to properly configure their own bar, it's highly unlikely they'll be able to put together a bar for a hero.
-It's quite easily possible to make a bar that's even worse than a henchie (although in the later chapters they see improvement).
-In regards to "just copying a build from PvX wiki": See above quote and my earlier posts about unlock packs.

-The game's only going to be "easier" for people who know how to use all of what's listed in the above quote properly, and those people are in a very small percent.
-If you're not already benefiting from 3 heroes, you're not going to benefit from 7.

In regards to micro: I guess you haven't dealt with the awful and often suicidal hero AI?

(1) GW staying as it is = me not playing GW at all (the addition of MOX got me back into GW for all of a couple hours, tops...)
(2) GW with 7 heroes = me playing GW again for quite a while longer, doing more with Hard Mode, experimenting more with different dungeons, missions, quests, and party builds, etc., etc.

I can't speak for anyone else, just me. But the ability to use additional heroes *would* revive the game and would be more fun for me. I certainly wouldn't say 7 heroes would "save" the game any more than you would, just extend its life by a considerable margin (i.e., by adding many hours of enjoyable gameplay).

at this point i can tell you to stop trolling, saying H/H is more powerful than 7heros is wrong, the IA is the same. As for builds, its like i said, give it a few days after they give you 7heros some 1 will come up with a team build put it on PvX and people will use it just like subway and discord.

How f***ing hard do you think it is to unlock skills?

both are suicidal, and henchmen are more suicidal than heros.

that helps my point, it only got you to play for a little longer "a few hrs you say" and then the game got old again, same thing if you add 7heros, you'll do the same content you've already done, and it will still be boring.

Id wather them wast time on next content thats new, other than painting a old crappy car.

Where, in any of my posts, have I said that playing with henchmen + heroes are better than 7 heroes? You've been looking at my posts from the completely wrong lens.

What I *have* been saying is that the effectiveness of your heroes, and hench how easy the game becomes, is how good you as a player are at the game. If you are *NOT* a good player with little to no direction of what to do, you will *NOT* find heroes - any amount of heroes - beneficial.

"How f***ing hard do I think it is to unlock skills?" Well, for me, since I don't suck at the game, know where to go, and know who and what to kill, it would be pretty easy - for me. For other, less experienced players I cannot say. Granted the unlock packs could simply be bought, but that comes back to the fact that people aren't terribly comfortable giving very pivotal information on the internet, especially considering that they can save their cash by simply playing the game.

Ya sure about that? Look at the revitalization that adding heroes brought. If heroes weren't added, I wouldn't be playing not because "it's too harrrd" but because it'd be too boring. Heroes made it a *hell* of a lot more fun, and I think doubling the amount you could use + 1 would be quite a cool way to go.

Mox and 7 heroes are not even comparable.

Mox added a few hours of play.

7 Heroes will add months for sure. Vanquish, Elite area, Experimenting builds, dungeons etc...

Vanquish, no. H/H is quite adequate for vanquishing; if you can't do it with them, you wouldn't be able to do it with H/H. Really, the limiting factor of vanquishing is time, because it takes quite a while to get through all 3 campaigns.

Elite areas alone, maybe. But how many times will that remain fun? How many times do you go back through a dungeon for fun? Judging by the state of DoA, Deep, and Urgoz PUGs, not too many people want to do them that often anymore. Letting people do them alone would certainly open up the areas to people beating it once for the statue...but after that, will they repeat it? Likely not.

As for experimenting builds, yes, that would be very fun, but only if there were challenges to pit your builds against. For someone who has finished all the vanquishes, elite areas, etc, and doesn't feel the need to go back and do them again, customizing a team of heroes is useless and doesn't actually add content. Which is what 7 heroes boils down to; it doesn't add content, and it doesn't really open up that much content either, it just makes the content we have more fun. That's not much consolation to players who have basically run out of content that they want to play.

Pugs fail most of the time to be honest. Heroes for me were the greatest invention ever. I could form a party based around a concept or idea that I wanted, rather than trying to jam together a mis-match of random player builds. If I want to play with human players I have a guild to ask, if I want to play on my own, or if I'm in one of the many missions where there arn't even pugs to pick from, why should I/we have to suffer with the rather poor henchies? At the end of the day if you could have 7 heroes, but didn't want to use them, you wouldn't have to, if you did want to, you could. I'd like that choice.

no you didnt know the Q. stop posting if your not even going to read the post.


wtf are you talking about, heros are a shit ton more beneficial cause you can change builds, and its as i said, its not hard to unlock skills and people will just copy some wiki build.

in the game they tell you to type /wiki when you start the game. Saying its hard to unlock skills is wrong



no new content (NF) made it fun, same for EoTN, and even if you say "no it was the heros" thats not going to make it any more fun, cause you've already messed about with 3heros its not going to be a big change in the fun factor.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xKG07305CBs


Mox was also new content, your not going to be doing any new content with 7heros, your going to be doing the same boring shit your doing now.

That is getting easier to do with this introduction of debt cards which act like a credit card but you can only spend what is on them, we have Gift cards too which are identical in every way except 1 once you've used the cash on it you cannot use it anymore.

So put money on the card enough to pay for X from the online shop and when done throw the plastic card away it's empty done, you'd have to be on the verge of paranoia not to pick that one up.

I did this when I wanted slots/bonus mission pack & game of the year upgrade.

At this point, I'd be happy with 7 heroes in the online store, with the only reason being I just want to see the gigantic outrage so I would have another fun thread to post in.

Then we could have another poll do you still party with people now that we have 7 heroes, I would /sign yes.

Because the wiki plays the game for you, correct? It tells you exactly what to bring, how to kill what you meet there, and otherwise? Because typing /wiki totally takes you to the PvX wiki and tells you how to make the best builds in the game, right?

To us, yes it's easy - but so is a lot of things. For the *majority, casual player*, things are not so easy.

Stopping you right there because you're attempting to define another's enjoyment.

Granted, yes, we were doing the "same content" with heroes that we did with other people and henchies. You can define it that way and say "hah I win" but it's not entirely accurate. You may be going through the "same content" but not in the same way, not in the same way at all. It has to deal with why RPGs in general are so replayable: Due to different classes and other large and alternate game-changing choices, you can pretty much go through entirely different routes all reaching the same destination.

yes wiki does tell you just about every thing and if you clk builds it tells you about pvx wiki. This quote was pointless imo.

its easy even to casual players, Ive played with a TON of them when i was in Lazy. Who have you played with?




no, Im saying if you already find the game boring now than its still going to be just as boring if you add 7heros.


sure your doing the same content in the different ways, but it will be easier and even more boring, its like if you played a game on the harder settings 1st, and then did it on the easier setting.

Poor poor guild wars.... I still say no to this, but for some reason, I don't think it would change the current play style of PvE considering all you really need right now is a friend and his/her 3 heroes. With 7 heroes, you could just lose the single friend you have and be a complete introvert. Not a big change when you think about it.

My opinion: meh.

I'm sorry JD but I couldn't disagree with you more on this. Wiki does not tell you everything. It simply gives you mission hints, like noting if an enemy uses a very powerful skill and what skill you can bring to counter it. It has never (in my experience) given me complete builds that directed me to PvxWiki, and even the hints it does give requires the player to have sufficient ability to effectively use the skill it has suggested and put it in a build that will complement it.

If wiki did everything, people would still not be having difficulties with the game. Just like being shown how to do a math problem, you'll never be able to do it unless you do it. No amount of tip and strategy sections can ever truly preprare you for the real thing. So no, wiki does not "do everything". It does not prepare you for shitty hero ai, tell you what builds/skills are used stupidly by heroes, and likewise.

But moreoever, if the game was "so easy" for so many players, things like overpowered PvE skills and consumable mechanics wouldn't need to exist. You may argue that the reason PvE skills are there to "promote title grinding", but that in no ways explains nor justifies how overpowered they are.

And again, you're attempting to coat what *you've* experienced to everyone's experience. Just like how you stated that Sailbat was "unlucky" with all the bad players, the exact same could be applied to how "lucky" you got.

Heard the exact same thing with adding any heroes in the firstplace.

Not to mention you're still attempting to define what other's find to bring enjoyment (i.e. you can't).

You should have stopped there, because it says a whole lot. It's pretty much saying "yeah, you're doing the same content in different ways with different classes with different difficulty levels with different items, skills, builds, etc. - but still!!!"

I'm not looking for 7 heroes to have a "piss easy" time. It's not about the difficulty (although it is for some, but it's not only solvable by adding 4 more heroes). It's about being able to have a party that's you. Not to stock half of it that's only provided by the dev or forced there by someone else.

It's also very interesting that you acknowledge how piss-poor henchies are, causing a poor indirect increase in difficulty by forcing you to play with crap. Isn't it no different than what ANet did with HM, something you're against?

yes it does. On wiki it gives a a list of enemy's and the skills they use, then when you clk on a skill it tells you its counts if any.

as for builds its just about the same, If you want to do farming and need a build you can go there and find a build with full guide on how to use it.

no it does not play for you but it does tell you how, which was my point to start with on wiki, as far as builds, there's DoA, FoW, UW, Deep, VQs etc builds on PvX.

/sigh, dont tell me we are going to go over this again.


I said he was being a dick head to them or got unlucky when he was not being a dick head. Plus hes not played with other players near as much as I have, so i dont think you can call me lucky with a few 1,000 hrs with other players. Not saying Ive never had the dick head pug, but its not often.



If your bored with the game now due to lack of new content or the game engine, adding 7heros is not going to keep you playing. Most people seem to think adding 7 heros is going to open new doors but its still going to be the game your already bored with.



No cause YOUR still going to be playing the same class with the same skills, and most likely in the same way, but with full team of heros, thats the only change, it would feel the same as if you were playing with H/H but easier.

How long is that going to last? A few days?

Yea lets remove them

They are also broken when It comes to knowing shit that players cant, like whats being cast on every1, what every 1 is casting, how much damage every thing is taking, being able to know what hex/enchantment is on every thing, how much energy things have "yes i know that 1 players from EviL or WM was able to know how much energy every 1 had in GvG" etc. When you add the right build in to the mix, sometimes they can play better than the better players in the game. Some Pvp build even req you to use heros cause heros are just good at running some builds.

anyway none of that really even matters cause the heros and henchmen only suicide every now and then, when you tell them to do something dumb and they go ahead and kill them self's for you. The IA is as good as they can make it IMO for a game like GW, and i find it funny you say how piss poor the IA is and WANT to play with it.

No then we could have another poll are you outraged that you have to buy 7 heroes and almost everybody would /sign yes thus causing problems for Anet.

Well anyone with 0.1% of a brain celll knows they must get some kind of income to support the servers running, when people stop buying the game they with create more content or take the servers down.

So I would not be outraged because I understand time=money, servers=money.

Rajah! Nice to see you posting again! You've been off for a while.

Exactly. People are already exploiting a means to do 1+6 via 2 accounts. And having fun doing so! Though, playing solo doesn't make you an introvert. You're only able to solo PvE, not the whole game. Still plenty of opportunities to chat and socialize. It's just that, when it comes to doing quests and missions, you're able to do so when you want, with a good chance of success, versus waiting to put together a PUG and (often) fail.

Guru's auto log-out due to inactivitiy = faaaail

You fail to realize how vital this point is. No matter what resources you're given, how many "tips" you get, how many weakpoints you've read up on, the tactics you've researched, nothing will prepare you for the real thing. If you put unexperienced players in the shoes of characters with finely tuned builds and give them every single strategy guide they need for the area it's still going to be very unlikely that they'll get it on the first try. If you want a good example, look at WoW: There's discussion, strategy, and full-out explanations of every single boss fight in the game - yet many, many people still wipe at them.

Providing proof you have yet to refute? Sorry.

And who's to say there's not many in this thread that have had just as much if not more experience? Heroes didn't come out until Nightfall, you know. Options were very slim. For me personally I reached the 1500hr mark just about a month before NF, much of it dicking around with henchies, a lot of it with other players, much of it failure.

Again, I reiterate for good reason: I heard the exact same thing with the release of 3 heroes, with people saying it's just going to make things just as boring as well as "hurting pugs". With 3 heroes you were given the oppurtunity to make numerous build options. With the current limit there's an endless amount of possibilities, but with 7 the amount of the choices would be multiplied tenfold.

For a game that's all about builds, that's quite a lot of game, and a whole lot of fun.

I like this portion of your post because it highlights why heroes were so revitalizing in the first place. In no longer came down to just your class with your skills, but with many other classes and skills as well. It was no longer concerning and caring about just one single build from one profession but builds and skills from every profession. For many it provided a very rich, rewarding, and deep process, one that would increase profoundly with 7 heroes.

Henchmen??? I really hope I'm reading that wrong. Why do you want to remove THE MOST beneficial thing in PvE?

For many it's a fair trade-off to play the game at their own pace. Need to AFK? Heroes and henchies won't mind. Fail a mission? They'll still stick with you on matter how many times you lose. Tired of back and shit talking? They won't say a word.

Still can't get a 2 letter acronym around the right way. AI not IA - someone please hit him with an acronym manual.

you phail to realize most poeple DONT have problems with playing the game. You seem to think every 1 buy yourself cant play at all.



gtfo with saying proof on the internet, Ive said 1+1=2 many times on this have gave you 2 fingers as proof but for some reason thats not good enough for you. It does not matter what proof I give you, your never going to view it as proof.



Cause most of the people in this thread said they used henchmen before heros and didnt pug before heros..




No, adding heros does not mean the fun level goes up per hero. If you found heros fun when they added them it was because they were new, you've already played with them for years now, its not going to be NF all over when it comes to fun.

No cause you've already played the builds, your not playing the heros bar, the AI is. Its the same content you've already done, nothings going to be new, same skills, same area.


Its way more rewarding to do it with with people. Any noob can put a build on heros and do a Mission/VQ, saying you masted Team work with 3-7 other people is much more rewarding cause it seem so many people cant do it from what you saying...

adding heros is the easy way out.


Well your saying your playing with piss poor AI, and your playing with a bunch of emo NPCs that keep killing them selfs, yes remove them you will have more fun.



so why does that mean people need 7 heros.

That's not what he said at all. But it is naive to think that everyone has no problems in this game. If there were no player issues the official wiki would not exist. The help sections on these forums would not exist...


It is completely unnecessary for you to keep quoting Bryant's points without adding anything constructive. You've actually said "1+1=2" more times than you've actually refuted an argument. Instead of posting something so useless, why didn't you refute his argument instead of using "1+1=2" AS your argument...If you wanted to convince him you should have quoted his passage and then provided the proof you claim you've been giving all along...seriously, I'd like to see it.


That is very true, but I don't see how that figures into this at all except to strengthen our earlier points about 7 heroes not affecting PUG's in the first place as we didn't use them to begin with...




THIS is your biggest failing. You fail to grasp that other people may have fun in different ways to you. 7 heroes will open up so much scope for build creating, personal creativity and it will certainly increase MY fun. I didn't like the NF gameplay but I'm sure many others did. However the advent of heroes brought a new dimension to the game that really re-vitalized it for me making NF worth every dollar even though I didn't much care for the campaign. I WOULD find 7 heroes as a game re-vitalizing facture and would find it fun. If you don't, that is your prerogative, but don't dictate what is fun to people who might not share your idea of what 'fun' actually is...

But our main argument has always been that it lets you create new builds, and test out new strategies in a way that isn't possible at the moment. I sometimes feel like you're not actually reading anything that is written...


Once again, way more rewarding to YOU. The rest of that quote didn't make any sense, but once again you're forcing YOUR play style on other people. Your arguments are simply selfish. Bringing in 7 heroes is all about choice. You don't need to use them, but it is good to have the option. That way it can cater to all different play styles. You want everyone to conform to your idea of fun and your ideas of reward. It's just mind-boggling how circular and frankly unconvincing your arguments are.



Remove them and YOU will have more fun. People in Australia and NZ for one wouldn't even be able to play. Seriously, think before you post...

Please JD, don't micro-quote me with pointless posts and add something constructive to the discussion. Actually refute points instead of repeating your catch-phrase "1+1=2". I'm going to refrain from replying to any more of your posts because it's just getting pointlessly circular. I can't make any promises, because inevitably you will say something so un-informed or biased that I will not be able to stay quiet; but I will certainly do my best.