A discussion on 7 heroes

The saying is "taking the piss", JD.

"All sucky PUGs you experienced have one thing in common: YOU" ?

You know, if someones presence in PUGs causes their suckage and he voluteers for PUG abstinece on condition of having 7 heroes, i am all for granting him wish and remove said individual from PUGs once and for all.

win/win

And it would be correct except that it's quite plain to any observant player that heroes perform notably better than pretty much every pickup group.

Meaning jdryder's logic fails again.

you didnt read my post did you?

ANET, you have over 650 votes in favor.
Doesn't that mean anything to you? Practically all of the community wants it. If it were that game breaking, why would 99/100 of the community want 7 heroes?

I use to think there may be a super-secretive reason as to why you're not implementing it, but now it is just getting retarded.

Henchies are prostitutes lol, maybe I'm wrong, but who else hangs around a certain place looking for business? Granted they fight, but I'd rather a team of heroes

I could give you a reason but I don't want to put ideas in there head if they haven't thought of this reason yet, so I'm not going to pay homage to there laziness.

Hahahaha damn I was agreeing with you and you internet assaulted me. I shall no longer support thee!

You still haven't given us any reason why Anet would benefit from adding 7 heroes. Thats a crapload of coding they would have to do for very little return. They would be much better served advertising complete hero solo play for Guild Wars 2. That would be much greater benefit.

You're just making up numbers, aren't you?

That's not what "taking it out of context" means (especially since the "original context" didn't really exist). Either way, this would've been the correct wording:

"If people are always being jerks to you its has to be you being a jackass as well"

As is, the original wording made it sound like the only way a pug would be rude to you is if you were rude in the first place.

How confused would you think people would be if I didn't include any of your quotes in this post?

All because of not having 7 heroes?

I don't think we're in any position to determine the amount of coding - or lack thereof - that would take to implement 7 heroes. Nonetheless, the benefit is being able to provide a completely customizable party with little to no consequence to others.

And who says they can't do this *and* advertise ;p?

Well I am in a position to talk about coding and it isn't all that much but that depends on how they coded it entirely, any sane developer would have made the code already to do 7 and more of them already because you would want to run test examples to work from, the fastest way of doing this is a flat plane and all the hero's at once to see how your code interacts with each hero, so it's a safe bet that it is already there if only for the option to be flexible during development, what if they wanted to change there minds mid way, too add more heroes or less too see how that balances out.

The only point in question is how they coded each outpost since each outpost can differ as to how many slots you can fill for a party, where they morons and made essentially speaking in lame man terms a configuration file for each outpost, that limits 3 heroes and X party members, if they did then they need to go back to school and learn how to code properly, it should be a global setting which is just a notepad edit away, the rest of the code should keep party management in check already.

Other than that it's just slight UI (User Interface) alterations, but that is unnecessary because the current UI can be used to edit any hero, simply kick a hero that is above position 3, kick the 3rd hero, and add that hero you first kicked into the 3rd position to edit it, people do that even now.

But then we're talking about a company that left Usran unchanged for a year, and took just as long to implement connection resume which should have been in there from alpha state of the entire game, an internet game without connection resume you have to be living in a dream world if you think that is a good idea.

I've given plenty of reasons why 7 heroes is a good idea with a population that is dying by the day soon you'll be lucky if you see anyone when you log on, but then that is relative to the time zone your in, but then Australia & New Zealand always got the ass end of the stick from ArenaNet why should it be any different now.

Oh and BTW: I wouldn't buy GW2 even if they offered 100 heroes and god mode, because I ain't done with GW1 and GW2 puts me off the more I hear about it, I've already got a game like there describing (perfect world).

not at all seeing how they just posted about how pugs are jerks, but it seems you only read my post


cause we all know that 650 votes means something out of what? think theres like 3million accounts "not sure how many but some 1 said that some where", and id bet a few 100,000 of them play now.

agreed this thread is getting really retarded "not aiming that at you"

My best bet is cause they want people to group up more as a reason for not adding them, adding 7heros means solo DoA, UW, FoW etc, not that you cant solo them now other than DOA, but knowing GW players give it a few days and some will make a 10min UW run build.

For me this is the single reason that they MUST add this. It's all well and good for people to be arguing about whether it will affect PUG's or not, but there is a huge portion of the player base who don't even have the option of PUGs because of their timezones.

Australians and NZs have been constantly screwed over by anet. Most notably by ridiulously charging us GBP in the online store, and I really, truly think it's about time that they catered to the parts of their community who simply don't have the 'luxury' of PUGGing in the first place.

Yes, I'd choose H/H over a PUG any day, but maybe that is purely because the experience of that 1 team I manage to get every few weeks has clouded my judgement.

It is clearly a big project. It isn't as easy as "add 7 heroes presto". They have to change all the various screens from 3 heroes to 7 among many other changes/bug fixes/etc etc. Basically, it is time and money and they will get no direct benefit from the effort.

So use heroes and hench. Saying there is no pugs is not an argument, because you can still play solo. If anything you have to argue why Anet should give players 7 heroes as opposed to 3 heroes and 4 hench.

As others in this thread have pointed out the coding should be minimal, as all is needed is to be able to pick heroes instead of henches nothing else has to change. No one needs to be able to flag all seven individually, no one needs to have access to all sevens skills/inventory at the same time etc... all that can be done prior to making your full group. And only a crazy person would want to try to micro manage more than three hero skill bars.

How Anet would benefit;

Anet could, with very little work, make a hero expansion upgrade that allows you to have seven heroes in your party and sell it exclusively in the online store for $9.99. This would both make them a nice wad of cash and bring a lot of people back to GW which in turn would increase future sales of GW2.

As we've said many times we're not asking for a free ride, put it in the online store they directly get benefited.

My reasons against:

7 heroes would be a free ride for the player, it would also kill GW. It would be less than 7 days for the ultimate hero team build to appear on pvxwiki and too many players (evidenced by the use of Ursan) would go for that, subsequently finish the game(s) quickly and stop playing.

Personally I think 3 is enough and what we really need is more control of them and more intelligent enemies.

Every time ANet tries to update AI Behavior (that isn't skill specific) they add debilitating bugs that make it harder to play. If there really is a population of players waiting to beat the game and then quit, what the hell have they been doing this whole time? Sitting in Gate of Madness or THK chatting with the henchmen? If there's anyone playing this game purely to beat it, who hasn't already beat it, they're probably not doing anything in the first place; so who cares if they get a leg up?

EDIT: THIS THREAD IS A YEAR OLD!

Nah people can already get to level 20 in less than a day and they still play, if anything heroes would allow players to progress further in the game do dungeons and areas that a regular H&H team will not allow them to and in HM to boot. It would be particularly beneficial for classes that can not get in to groups easily.

Ursan was nerfed because it was being used to easy mode DoA now very few go there any more. If we had seven heroes, then players who would never get picked for a the seldom pug that goes in there would finally get an opportunity to try that area and other areas like it.

This old nut shell it's already hard enough dealing with the Heroes we've got 7 is going to make it harder to play still, you can PvXwiki all you like it isn't going to teach you a damn about how to actually play with it, took me awhile to learn how to play with sabway, if anything putting up with there insanity will be more of a challenge.

Your not going to get more intelligent enemies because you'd get a crying thread that you cannot beat X or Y, either way when you play a game you should get better at it in the end it will be easy when you add content that again challenges that group of people again, you end up isolating players that are less skilled at the game, until you get to a point your game is unplayable by anyone but the very elite.

The key to game creation is progress while someone feels there getting better at the game they play, when the start feeling that it's hopeless they play less and less, until they forget about your product completely and move on.

if it took you time to use sabs you arent a good player because sabs is the perfect definition of cookie cutter
I sabbed EVERYTHING vanqed EVERYWHERE, and had no problem
mainly because most skills are cooperating well, NO need of micromanage

some builds dont need micromanage,
EVEN IF THEY DID:
Im sure that a retarded ogden will be much powerfull than allesia for christ sake
Dont you thing

and a human monk is not an option because how ou imagine youll find a human monk thatll come vanq with ya ?

Read over my posts in the last 89 pages. I don't think it's helpful to repeat myself too much. I try only to reply to a post when I have something new-ish to contribute. I have raised other points as well, that was simply the one I raised in that post.

I do play solo. Have since the game started. Just because we can H/H isn't a reason NOT to add 7 heroes to turn your argument against your own point. For the points as to why anet SHOULD add 7 heroes look over my other posts, and Bryant's early posts as well.

The argument for the time being has turned a little circular thanks to JD, but the early posts are still useful and an interesting read from both sides.

Are people really saying that playing H/H is somehow more complicated than flag 'n win?

I don't think even more opportunity should be given to players who don't know how to play the game. The more AI you give a team, then the less player capability is needed, and for a game that has so much potential depth and complexity, you want the players to need to use it in order to get the most out of the game design.

As it is, most players never get better because they have access to well-tuned-skillbar AI and one-dimensional supercharge skills.

Who are you to judge what sort of level of player I am? I still learn't how to use it, and vanquished all the explorable areas, and you cannot have used sabway in NF in the mission at least because they FORCE you to disband the build.

And that character that did all that plus the other 14 titles she has max? MONK!

This is so only because you can win PvE by playing buildwars with builds that require only button mash and still win.

AI Makes this easier only because it will take build you need to win without question and because it can play without reality interfeering (lag, phone-brbs, etc.)

This is problem of game design which does not have enough frenzies but has overabundance of discords (that is the currently-at-rage thing, right). As long as objectivelly powerfull skillbar can be used by my cat walking over keyboard, it is not really AI in party issue but more of issue that people do not really need anything beyond that.

Also, i don't really find it surprisng that one players suckiness is made up for with 7 other party members. You had that in pugs all the time and those people didn't really learn a lot either - except that they learned to spam for "lfg pro party, no noobs" and dented to blame someone else for their mistakes, just like they would blame AI.

If player wants to improve and learn, he will learn even with AI as those hero builds set examples thanks to being made by good players and are reputable enough to make people rethink their old position.

True!

And the argument against still seems to come down to: it would be bad for PUGging. It would discourage people teaming together to do PvE. (PvP is, obviously, unaffected by this.) Also, that it would make the game "too easy".

The latter argument has been refuted because an all Hero H/H team would, theoretically, be less powerful than an all human 8-player team. (In actuality, as most of us here have experienced, but not all, an H&H team was able to do quests and missions easier, and in less time, than a PUG - though that's a reflection of people's skill level and ability to coordinate rather than H&H being "superior." Henchman, typically, have sucky builds.)

So, if an all human team isn't considered OP, if that doesn't make the game "too easy", then how can 7 heroes be OP?

Sorry, but I still don't buy the whole "7 heroes will kill the game" argument. Not when so many people have stated the challenges they experience trying to get a PUG together, or how their guild is drying up, or any other of a number of signs that the game is starting to dwindle anyway.

Adding the use of 7 heroes appeals to a lot of people, and mostly because of the #1 reason to play anyway: it would be FUN!

Too bad ANet is so set against it...

Let me see you 'flag 'n win' you way through the games and all the interesting dungeons and elite area's. You can't, you'll fail.

With H/H (and heroes alone) you setup their skillbars, equip them, flag them at the proper positions and point them at their targets. In a PuG you have only your own character and it's skillbar to control. Now, how and why is playing in a PuG more complicated then doing the same mission with H/H?

Indeed, in an 8 man team, one mediocre or bad performing player will not make the group fail. But should that not be addressed by reducing the size of the team, making each player's performance more important (and adjust the challenges accordingly) and not by gimping half of the team.

Guild Wars is about creating character builds optimized to be combined and used in a team. Frankly that part of the design is expressed more clearly in AI teams then in the average PuG and thus it demonstrates this aspect of the game better.

Heroes don't have any of these one-dimensional supercharged skills.

I said no because you do not want to completely shutdown the social aspect of the game. Bad enough people were complaining about the lack of socialism with players because of heroes in the first place. Allowing 7 would be madness

plz tell me how the game would be harder if you added 7 heros, the game got easier when they added 3. Micro is not a reason cause you dont have to micro anything about heros that you didnt have to micro with henchmen to win, only now you can give them a build thats good.

This is a odd concept it dawned on me, what we have in this game is socialites and anti-social people, neither is wrong it's just how we're wired together in out brains.

Using computers is by and large an anti-social thing to do, you might think that entering a virtual world and interacting with pixels on the screen is being social, it is not entirely social still even with teamspeak/vent even with audio it only adds one aspect of what it is to be social; to be truly social I'm sorry but your going to have to get out from behind your monitor and away from the computer and go and see real people in real life.

Even forums aren't social because you cannot tell if I'm pulling the finger right now, or looking at my screen with a dead pan face concentrating on what I'm thinking, hence GW is no more social than an advanced IRC chat room.

There is no social aspect of the game when your talking about PuGs it's just random people bumping into each other in a virtual world by chance doing the same thing, you do that thing then you all go your separate ways that isn't socialism that an agreed all of us need each other to do this then I'm done with you.

Besides this playing with people when you find that rare nugget group that does work well together make the game far to easy.

If you meant any of that, you would not have posted it. Also Ive met some good people in pugs who i am still friend with.

People who H&H still socialize. LOL We share builds, buy/sell items, party, dance, etc.

Easier for whom, everybody?? If you say "yes", then wrong.

Well, if it got easier, it would have to be because heroes/H&H > PUGs.

But, again, if 1 player + 7 heroes can't beat 8 real players, then something is wrong. Right?

So, 7 heroes would make the game easier for those who play solo simply because we wouldn't have sucky henchmen. If they improved the henchman bars, people wouldn't want 7 heroes as badly. We'd still want it just because its fun to customize and play around with builds and shit. But, just not as badly.

I read most of the thread. My problem with your earlier post (and many other posts in this thread) is that people make it sound like since the population is dying (or will die) that is the reason they should add 7 heroes. The argument is since there won't be many people to PuG with they should add 7 heroes.

That argument is bad because adding 7 heroes has nothing to do with being able to play without other people. It is already possible to solo. You have to argue why 7 is better than 3+4, and saying 7 would allow you to solo is not an argument.

Ok now you are talking a completely different topic altogether. If they added this to the online store there would be outrage from lots of people. You think they want outrage? I am personally in the camp that selling anything in game in the online store (particularly this) is ridiculous, but that is another thread altogether.

What happens when an irresistable force meets an immovable object?

You get 90 page forum threads that go nowhere.

Are you that retarded? Whats more powerful a H/H team or a full hero team?

The availability of (7) heroes (and henchies) also has a positive effect on socializing; knowing that one can always fall back on the reliability of H/H makes failure of a PuG (or consecutive PuG in certain missions) less important and that does make it easier to join a group.


Actually, that's not the argument in favor of 7 heroes, it is one that counters the argument that 7 heroes would lead to a decline in players.

I sometimes wonder how difficulty/balance might be affected if, instead of having 7 heroes, the game offered a "6-hero/No hench" option (many players are already accomplishing this via dual accounts). Might this keep the ability to solo with heroes from being too overpowered?

I mean, if there was a choice between the standard 3 heroes/4 henches and, say, 6 heroes/no henches, I wonder which option would be more popular? Would it be fair to say 6 heroes/no henches is approximately as powerful as 3 Heroes/4 henches?

The reason I mention this is that, really, the only valid reason that I have read here in favor of being able to use more heroes is that it would be fun (i.e., to use more of your heroes at a time and play around with their builds and so forth).

I do not have two accounts, so I have never tried playing with six heroes, but I would be interested in hearing from anyone who has done this. How does it compare, difficulty-wise to the more common 3 Hero/4 hench setup?

To give you an exemple, i've cleared FoW with my 3 heroes and 3 other heroes from a friend and it was fun, easy but who cares about difficulty when everyone knows the game is easy.