Remove the Timer from Soul Reaping

Remove the Timer from Soul Reaping

(This thread is provided as a convenience to the devs so that this issue can come to their attention without having to wade through pages and pages of off-topic in the update feedback thread.)

It's time to remove the timer from Soul Reaping.

We grudgingly tolerated it when it (arguably) served some purpose. Now that spirits no longer trigger Soul Reaping, that purpose is gone. So, the timer no longer serves any purpose. And we HATE it. So it's time to remove the timer, please.

To elaborate for those who haven't been paying attention to Soul Reaping:
PvP teams used to be able to create infinite energy engines using either: (1) Jagged Bones to create infinite minions in rapid succession, or (2) an infinite supply of spirits cast in rapid succession. First, Jagged Bones was nerfed with a long recharge that made the minion turnover too slow to be worthwhile as an energy engine. That nerf worked, and "minion spam" died. Later, the timer effect was added to deal with "spirit spam," over very strong community complaints that we'd rather see spirits just not trigger Soul Reaping. This nerf failed to destroy "spirit spam" teams (they just worked around the timer), and remains widely HATED among the necromancer player base. Now that a-net has finally implemented no-Soul-Reaping-from-spirits, like the players asked for months ago, both types of infinite energy engines are impossible, and there is no need for the timer to remain. (Moreover, with EotN as the final installment, there's no danger of accidentally creating a new one in a future expansion.)

At the time the timer was added, some people argued that it was also necessary for "PvE balance." Most responded that "PvE balance" does not exist, or, if it does, the devs do not care about it. I think that, with the inclusion of super-powered PvE-only skills like Ursan Blessing, Save Yourselves, and There's Nothing to Fear, there can be no doubt that, if "PvE balance" was ever a real concern, it is not anymore. Simply put, "PvE balance" is no longer a credible reason for nerfing anything.

Finally, I've gone to the trouble of sifting through the mountain of off-topic in the update feedback thread to pull out people's comments in support of removing the timer.

It's time for the timer to go.


[edit: In what may be a vain attempt to maintain the focus in this thread, I've created another thread just for the pet nerf.

Please put the pet comments there and the SR comments here.]

Gj and Ty for the rehash..I hope we see some usefulness come out of this.

-crosses fingers and waits-

I think SR and Pets both need to be rethought altogether.

I totally 100% agree that the no-corpses-from-pets nerf is the dumbest thing since... well, since the timer was added to SR. It's just not on-topic in this thread. Perhaps it deserves a thread of its own.

Not altogether sure why pets don't leave exploitable corpses now. Anyone willing to explain it to me, please do so.

As for the timer. It served it's purpose until the step was taken to remove spirits from SR trigger. It's now time to remove it.

Given a sufficient supply of things dying I've never really noticed an energy shortage (in PvE, I can't and don't comment on PvP balance). My first thought with the spirit change was we might lose the timer, but I don't know that I care that much one way or the other.

Oh, and I really, really don't understand the whining about pet corpses. I can't think of a change that could affect my primary necro less. If you need a corpse that badly in PvE, you're running a build you shouldn't be running wherever you are.

yeah the whole timer thing needs to go, really i mean like pronto.

that and the no minions or wells from pets? wtf is that about, is it alive? when it dies it makes a corpse, thats how the game mechanics work. riiight? or are they tossing crap nerfs out now just to !@#% with the player base.

/signed for remove SR timer
/signed for reverting back pets to leave corpse...what next? ally doesn't leave corpse?

Nah I think they're worried that some "cool" N/R "Bone Minion Petway" will become the new FoTM build or something now that spirits dont give energy.

no, the pet was an understandiable change. leave it theres plenty of other corpses in pve anyway. The soul reaping being reverted back to how it was ages ago with out the spirits sounds approprriate.

remove SR timer <-------> RESOUNDING YES it's Long Over due

Care to enlighten us on why it's understandable then as I'm sure there's several people on this forum who would like to hear it, and going by the fact you menioned pve, I can only guess it's some messed up pvp exploit someones figured out and made someone cry.

In what may be a vain attempt to maintain the focus in this thread, I've created another thread just for the pet nerf.

Please put the pet comments there and the SR comments here.

-------------------------

Thank you to whoever returned the thread to Riverside.

On topic, I'd say they should just scrap their current idea altogether and rethink it. Maybe make it so you gain one pip energy regen based on the number of enemies around:

Soul Reaping.........# of enemies affected.......Area of effect
.....0-6...........................1..................... .......nearby
.....7-12.........................2...................... ....in the area
....13-18.........................3.................heari ng distance (like shouts/chants)

Just my thought and I'm sure there are multiple problems with that ^^ but I think the current SR is just as issue prone if not more so.

I quit months ago after the introduction of the timer.

This nerf was unnessary and I lost faith in anet so I left. I've only logged in twice sense then... to collect hats in July and October. I loved this game but hated the way it was being run.

Please Anet show some common sense.

No reason for the timer. Remove it, or restore the SR off spirits. No need for both.

1234567891011

Soul Reaping is arguably the best primary attribute in the game already. I have to say I disagree that Anet should remove the timer. Besides, it doesn't matter now. It won't be used in PvP because things don't die reliably enough. In PvE, Necros are already good. No need to give them infinite energy so they can spam 15 energy spells like they're free.

The timer is silly. Always was and always will be.
On the other hand - the energy gain from SR is (still!) insane.

Drop the timer and reduce how much energy can be gained from each death. I'd suggest something like 1 point of energy per 3 or 4 levels in SR.
IF SR shouldn't be rebalanced - keep the timer.
It's the only thing that is currently keeping it in check.


Aye.
Exactly.

Why are people complaining about the SR timer anyway?

In PvE depending on your SR attribute you should be getting at least 30 energy every 15 seconds, which equates to an effective energy regeneration boost of +6.

In PvP outside of builds meant to exploit SR, if you are able to trigger it 4 times in 15 seconds (by killing 4 people in 15 seconds) aren't you winning enough that you don't need that extra energy?

I'll be the first one to argue about the fact that the current method is pretty inelegant but we don't need it back to what it is before.

/signed


the timer should go since the spirits no longer give energy....
(edit by request: Chthon wants reasons)

i agree with this only if they remove energy gain from spirits..

They removed energy gain from spirits in the November 13th update, street peddler.

well i didnt notice lol

Hell yea, revert it. Now you only get energy... WHEN YOUR SUPPOSED TO! Revert it so my PvE necro isn't GARBAGE please. (sucks when your trying to raise a minion army and you have no energy. -_-)

/signed
remove timer from SR

I agree that the timer should now be removed.

I'd even settle for their making the return 1E for every 2 points in SR, if they feel that SR is still over-powered without the timer.

/signed

this was a pathetic idea from the start, I think they are only resisting because it's another case of them convincing themselves it's working or something........

I agree that timer needs to go!

They also need to roll back the spirit nerfs they did two updates ago as it is no longer necessary to have them weakened to thwart Spiritway since Spiritway is gone.

/signed

This is what we were asking for when they nerfed SR initially. Leave SR as it is and take away energy from spirits. Now they take away energy from spirits, but we still have the counter. What gives? I don't use spirits, and it would be way better if my energy kicked in like immediately.

Now that GWEN is here and we have PvE only skills, isn;t this time for a PvE wake-up call re soul reaping?

Folks, please remember to say why you want the timer to go (or stay). Reasons are more convincing than just "/signed."

Also, please make sure to let a-net know what you think of SR not triggering on spirits.

I'm going to have to go against the public opinion here.

Mesmers bring pdrain, auspicious incantation, elementalists bring attunements and glyphs etc., so it's not like necros are suddenly the only class that have to watch their energy bars. Having to use Signet of lost Souls every now and then doesn't kill you. And to be honest, SR still provides a truckload of energy as it is.

Yup, sums it up perfectly.

It's a terrible game mechanic that was put in place to counter an exploit (Spirits).
Now the exploit has been removed from the game, and so should the terrible game mechanic. It no longer serves a purpose.

Remove the timer and we can finally put the Soul Reaping issue to rest once and for all.

Why spirits have been triggering SR in the first place is still a mystery to me.
The entire (or at least a large part of the) community cried out to remove the spirit SR triggering after the nerfbat slapped it to the crippled attribute only triggering once every 5 seconds.
Then it changed to 3 times every 15 seconds which is in technicality the same deal but allowed for a 10% more flexible use.
Spirits stopped triggering SR now so it's time to change it back the way it was.
We might finally have some sort of flexibility again.

/signed

Bury this entire history and remove the Timer.

I adapted to SR with timer, have always used SoLS since the very 1st day NF came out, not only for energy but also to have a self healing.

I don't play MM because any hero literally humiliates a human player, due to the fact they can target minions with extreme precision and know which one to choose for death nova or jagged bones.
This due do the lack of a minion management interface for a human player.

In my opinion:


1. Full mana from every death would make things less challenging imo.

2. Anyway, the timer sucks, I see SR as a "reward" for a kill, then I spend some high mana to kill a foe and maybe get nothing, or I get when I don't need.


That said, I would like a tweak to SR similar to leadership or mysticism.

- gain 1e for each 2 degrees of SR
- gain energy from every non-spirit death with no timer
- consequently reduce the energy cost for some necro spells

It sounds a good compromise, no exaggerated mana but the right quantity and predictable.


And of course, exploitable pet corpses.

I still can't comprehend how @12 soul reaping 36e return every 15seconds isn't good enough. [email protected] that's 27e every 15seconds. You can't find any better e management in the game that uses no skill slots for the reward.

You know, this issue is one that raises very strong emotions in primary necros because it deals with our primary attribute. We have seen multiple "skill balances" made to our class because Soul Reaping has been made out to be an over buffed attribute. Necros have very high energy costs for all of our spells, well, those that are or can be used effectively in play, as well as very long cast times. Spirits should never have triggered the energy return for soul reaping, that A-Net knows now, and they have fixed the problem, but the SR timer should be placed back to pre-spirit operation. I think that the only people who would argue with that are the people who caused the nerf in the first place, the PvP community. They had a very realistic reason for their outcry, don't get me wrong, spiritway was the big loss, but again, that's been removed from the game. There have been multiple comments made like "looks like necro's have to practice energy management now too" and the like, well, Soul Reaping is our energy management. Take a simple skill chain used in both PvE and PvP, Awaken the Blood / Arcane Echo / Spiteful Spirit, 10+15+15=40 energy. My setup gives me a total of 50 energy, that's a pretty big pool, but those three skills don't leave me with enough to chain my next Spiteful Spirit cast, and then when that's off, you can't cast another cover hex or additional curse for further damage. Our pool gets drained very fast to be an effective contributor to a team build. One of the most exciting attributes in the game is Blood Magic, a Necro att., yet it's most effectively used by Rangers, because of their primary attribute which does what?, lowers energy needed for spells. Necro is one of the most exciting and challenging proffessions in the game, an offensive back line unit that performs many self sacraficing duties for the good of the team, it's time to give something back to them. Whether it's reducing spell costs or returning soul reapings effect to pre-nerf status, I believe we are do for some good news for a change.

no more spirit abuse and pet corpses. SR can be the unnerfed version safley now.

Spirits are gone, Jagged Bones is crap compared to what it once was. There's no longer a reason for the SR nerf. REMOVE THE TIMER! D<

*doesn't even play necro anymore*

/signed Yes please remove the timer. I actually want to play my necro when I come back to this game.