I made myself a "mesma" last month. Surprisingly I was able to get into PUGs because these days some mission outposts are so empty that they'll take anyone, even mesmers. Of course the PUG sucked so I left before the mission.
Me/Mo ftw.
Why are there virtually no mesmers ingame?
Shadowfox1125
Kook~NBK~
My main character's a Mesmer, and she does just fine in PvE. I can't interrupt well, but that's not because fo the class, it's because I don't have the greatest connection and my reflexes have slowed a bit. But I can do a fair bit of damage while I'm out running around.
Antheus
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Kook~NBK~
My main character's a Mesmer, and she does just fine in PvE. I can't interrupt well, but that's not because fo the class, it's because I don't have the greatest connection and my reflexes have slowed a bit. But I can do a fair bit of damage while I'm out running around.
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Zodiak
Meser's are Fun!
They are the new Summonmancers of guildwars!
Summonmancer
Me/Rt or Rt/Me Variant
Boon of Creation
Echo
Arcane Echo
Ebon Vanguard Assassin Support
Summon Ruby Djinn
Cast Boon of Creation
Cast Summon Ruby Djinn
Arcane Echo > Cast Ebon Vanguard Assassin Support > Cast Echo > Cast Arcane Echo'ed Assassin Support > Echo Arcane Echo'ed Assassin Support
Blam, you now have an Army of 3+ Assassin's at your disposal + an Asura summon.
4+ Man team comming through ftw
They are the new Summonmancers of guildwars!
Summonmancer
Me/Rt or Rt/Me Variant
Boon of Creation
Echo
Arcane Echo
Ebon Vanguard Assassin Support
Summon Ruby Djinn
Cast Boon of Creation
Cast Summon Ruby Djinn
Arcane Echo > Cast Ebon Vanguard Assassin Support > Cast Echo > Cast Arcane Echo'ed Assassin Support > Echo Arcane Echo'ed Assassin Support
Blam, you now have an Army of 3+ Assassin's at your disposal + an Asura summon.
4+ Man team comming through ftw
ShadowStorm
Mesmers in PvE are so rare because there are so few mesmer builds that are effective in PvE. And 75% of the ones that do work in PvE revolve around using the skills of your secondary class coupled with your Fast Casting attribute.
darkdreamr
I've completed all three campaigns on my mesmer, and seen a lot of ignorance/assumptions about them. I've henched most of it, because the henchmen are often better than pugs, sadly. The truth is that the only places mesmers don't work is in the rigidly crafted teams for Deep/Urgoz/DoA in the days before Ursanway.
The times when you actually need AoE in normal PvE, including HM, are few and far between. In those situations, of course eles can do more damage. Their biggest advantage is meteor shower with its knockdown. But in terms of damage, mantra of recovery, ether phantom, and cry of pain provide excellent *armor-ignoring* AoE damage. Plus mesmers have the flexibility to play a fire nuking build if necessary.
In most of PvE though, you are faced with small groups and generally don't have or *need* any sort of tanking. Mesmers shine in these situations because they can easily remove all healing from the equation with skills like backfire, enchantment removal, and interrupts. This allows the quick steamrolling of enemy mobs. The build I used for vanquishing Tyria is:
[finish him!][empathy][backfire][necrosis][cry of pain][mantra of recovery][ether signet][optional]. I doubt any other class could go through groups that fast.
It really annoys me every time I read arguments that mesmers suck in pve, because it's simply not true, and it just perpetuates stereotypes. Most of these people don't have real experience playing a mesmer, and know half as much about the game as competent mesmers have to.
edit: in response to the argument that all mesmer builds revolve around fast casting, that may be because it's one of the class's most powerful assets. Still, even without it, one of the strengths of mesmers is their flexibility in terms of build. In addition to domination, I have several Illusion builds that don't use fast casting at all and work well in PvE. I also have spiteful spirit, spoil victor, fire nuking, ritualist, and even bonding builds. Most classes have a few powerful elites that are used more than all others, so it doesn't explain mesmer rarity. People just perk up at the sight of spiteful spirit or flesh golem, and don't understand mantra of recovery, ineptitude, or echo, so they dismiss them as ineffective.
The times when you actually need AoE in normal PvE, including HM, are few and far between. In those situations, of course eles can do more damage. Their biggest advantage is meteor shower with its knockdown. But in terms of damage, mantra of recovery, ether phantom, and cry of pain provide excellent *armor-ignoring* AoE damage. Plus mesmers have the flexibility to play a fire nuking build if necessary.
In most of PvE though, you are faced with small groups and generally don't have or *need* any sort of tanking. Mesmers shine in these situations because they can easily remove all healing from the equation with skills like backfire, enchantment removal, and interrupts. This allows the quick steamrolling of enemy mobs. The build I used for vanquishing Tyria is:
[finish him!][empathy][backfire][necrosis][cry of pain][mantra of recovery][ether signet][optional]. I doubt any other class could go through groups that fast.
It really annoys me every time I read arguments that mesmers suck in pve, because it's simply not true, and it just perpetuates stereotypes. Most of these people don't have real experience playing a mesmer, and know half as much about the game as competent mesmers have to.
edit: in response to the argument that all mesmer builds revolve around fast casting, that may be because it's one of the class's most powerful assets. Still, even without it, one of the strengths of mesmers is their flexibility in terms of build. In addition to domination, I have several Illusion builds that don't use fast casting at all and work well in PvE. I also have spiteful spirit, spoil victor, fire nuking, ritualist, and even bonding builds. Most classes have a few powerful elites that are used more than all others, so it doesn't explain mesmer rarity. People just perk up at the sight of spiteful spirit or flesh golem, and don't understand mantra of recovery, ineptitude, or echo, so they dismiss them as ineffective.
Cebe
Quote:
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Originally Posted by darkdreamr
It really annoys me every time I read arguments that mesmers suck in pve, because it's simply not true, and it just perpetuates stereotypes. Most of these people don't have real experience playing a mesmer, and know half as much about the game as competent mesmers have to.
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glountz
Quote:
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Originally Posted by darkdreamr
It really annoys me every time I read arguments that mesmers suck in pve, because it's simply not true, and it just perpetuates stereotypes. Most of these people don't have real experience playing a mesmer, and know half as much about the game as competent mesmers have to.
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Most people don't say that mesmers can't be useful. They say that they are less than other professions in PVE.
wsmcasey
Gwen is a Mesma........just sayin
Painbringer
All the capable Mesmer players have had no problem blasting there way through Factions I am sure they are all currently working on the grind titles in Gwen 
darkdreamr
I read Avarre's post already. Disregarding the elite areas though, I disagree that mesmers are less effective, and that more than one mesmer is a waste of party space. I simply don't buy into the tank-nuke-heal trifecta for most of pve. Fissure of Woe, maybe, but for the vast majority of the game grouping and tanking is not needed, and it's actually slower than other approaches. I think high spike damage is the best defense actually, because regardless of your opponents build, when he's dead you have negated him. Frankly, it couldn't be easier with armor ignoring damage. Throwing interrupts in there, along with anti-monk skills, makes mincemeat of almost everything - and the more mesmers the better.
Crom The Pale
Mesmers are extremely underrated by those that have never mastered them. With the abbility to deal fast armor ignoring dmg, shut down both casters and melee they are very versitile. Paired with the correct secondary they can serve a dual function better than most any other class.
The biggest problem with most people playing mesmers is that the learning curve is much much longer than on any other char, so people quite before reaching really understanding of the proffesion.
The biggest problem with most people playing mesmers is that the learning curve is much much longer than on any other char, so people quite before reaching really understanding of the proffesion.
Darksun
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Esan
There's lots of miasma in Zen Daijun.
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Mesmers are SOOOO underrated. I always take a Mesmer with me in PvE.
makosi
Mesmers aren't the best in PvE. Not useless, but whatever they can do, something else can probably do the same thing more efficiently or with a broader spectrum of utility and capability. We've all been at Coventina the Matron in the Ring of Fire islands where we wished there was a Diversion mesmer to shut off those skills but does the mesmer serve a really strong purpose anywhere else in that mission? If you want damage get an ele, if you want support get a monk, if you want a damage absorber get a warrior to 'tank'. PvE is generally and historically that straightforward that a mesmer's strengths are not required. One of the Mesmer's biggest strengths is shutting down foes although Meteor Shower does just that in PvE where the mobs are too thick-skulled to move. Consequently, Elementalists steamroll through PvE.
Enter Hard Mode. Monsters now attack faster, cast faster, move faster. This has inadvertently weakened the entire 'Power' line of interrupts making it near impossible to interrupt some otherwise interruptable skills. Sure, you can be twitchy and get lucky with some interruptions but that's scruffy play.
You could argue that skills like Empathy are stronger in HM because of the rapid attack speed but in reality, you're just a weak, wannabe Spiteful Spirit Necro.
Mesmers are not useless but as long as the motto of PvE is "kill and move on", other classes will simply outdo the Mesmer.
Edit: Despite all I've written above, if I'm not playing as Mesmer through PvE, I will always take a Mesmer henchman [not often a Hero] if I know they have Cry of Frustration. The AI is too good at interrupts but the AI often use their best skill upon aggro so interrupting the area is a great tool. It's worth mentioning that it works just as well on Zhed though.
Enter Hard Mode. Monsters now attack faster, cast faster, move faster. This has inadvertently weakened the entire 'Power' line of interrupts making it near impossible to interrupt some otherwise interruptable skills. Sure, you can be twitchy and get lucky with some interruptions but that's scruffy play.
You could argue that skills like Empathy are stronger in HM because of the rapid attack speed but in reality, you're just a weak, wannabe Spiteful Spirit Necro.
Mesmers are not useless but as long as the motto of PvE is "kill and move on", other classes will simply outdo the Mesmer.
Edit: Despite all I've written above, if I'm not playing as Mesmer through PvE, I will always take a Mesmer henchman [not often a Hero] if I know they have Cry of Frustration. The AI is too good at interrupts but the AI often use their best skill upon aggro so interrupting the area is a great tool. It's worth mentioning that it works just as well on Zhed though.
gremlin
Mesmers are underrated by most people, this I put down to 3 things
1 Their Dance emote is terrible
2 there armor looks naf
3 Many players are limited in there ability to play subtle characters.
I base this on the players who's attitude seems to be.
Me got big sword thingy and hit things or I can blow the crap out of everything with elemental power, its no wonder mesmers are seldom chosen as characters.
There are only a few players that enjoy the versitility of the mesmer.
Its a profession for adults who enjoy a challenge and see more than one way of solving problems in game.
We are small in number but smug in our conviction that we are better at many things than other classes, and by the fact that you only function at our whim.
We can interupt you whenever we like.
consider any flames interupted by my supirior abilities.
1 Their Dance emote is terrible
2 there armor looks naf
3 Many players are limited in there ability to play subtle characters.
I base this on the players who's attitude seems to be.
Me got big sword thingy and hit things or I can blow the crap out of everything with elemental power, its no wonder mesmers are seldom chosen as characters.
There are only a few players that enjoy the versitility of the mesmer.
Its a profession for adults who enjoy a challenge and see more than one way of solving problems in game.
We are small in number but smug in our conviction that we are better at many things than other classes, and by the fact that you only function at our whim.
We can interupt you whenever we like.
consider any flames interupted by my supirior abilities.
Cebe
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Darksun
Mesmers are SOOOO underrated. I always take a Mesmer with me in PvE.
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Miss Puddles
i love my mesmA. they are certainly not the easiest class to play, button mashing will get you nowhere. the people that think pve mesmAs are useless are either pvp'ers or people who have never played mesmA in pve and don't realize how powerful they can be.
i was lfg for grand court of sebelkeh on my mesmA recently, and a group was looking for a damage dealer. i added myself and was rejected. group leader pm'ed me saying they wanted a nuker. o.O i replied that i an do plenty of damage, and that they should say lf nuker if that's what they wanted. oh yeah, and i was the only other person not afk in the district. gl hf.
i was lfg for grand court of sebelkeh on my mesmA recently, and a group was looking for a damage dealer. i added myself and was rejected. group leader pm'ed me saying they wanted a nuker. o.O i replied that i an do plenty of damage, and that they should say lf nuker if that's what they wanted. oh yeah, and i was the only other person not afk in the district. gl hf.
Neverending Silence
use a fast casting nuker for pve...
Jebus
What's a mesma?
glountz
Quote:
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Originally Posted by darkdreamr
I read Avarre's post already. Disregarding the elite areas though, I disagree that mesmers are less effective, and that more than one mesmer is a waste of party space. I simply don't buy into the tank-nuke-heal trifecta for most of pve. Fissure of Woe, maybe, but for the vast majority of the game grouping and tanking is not needed, and it's actually slower than other approaches.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by darkdreamr
I think high spike damage is the best defense actually, because regardless of your opponents build, when he's dead you have negated him. Frankly, it couldn't be easier with armor ignoring damage. Throwing interrupts in there, along with anti-monk skills, makes mincemeat of almost everything - and the more mesmers the better.
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EDIT: BTW I have a PVE mesmer that finished all campaigns and vainquished many Tyria's regions.
DDL
It's also really nice to see the MONSTERS going "#$%#!!" for once. Especially in the middle of a critical spell.
See how THEY like it, etc etc.
See how THEY like it, etc etc.
Shanaeri Rynale
Avarre's post up until Gwen was true, now it helps to perpetuate the stereotype, in my view although it contains some truth it now needs a revision and update to match todays reality. For example it's now not only the speed of killing that is important, but the percieved ease of that kill(hence the rise of the Ursan).
With mobs having fast attack speeds, high armor, resistance to elemetal attacks the role of an armor ignoring damage, shutdown class is increased not diminished. I see more opportunites for mesmers to shine in PvE now, than I did a year or so ago not less.
With respect few people play with multiple mesmers in a team to really see how efficient they can be. Most people will take along a token one or 2, but not use them to the maximum of their potential. They either turn them into FC nukers, farmers, rezmers, bonders or some other profession-a-like and not look at the synegies possible when you use 3 4 or even 5.
In general people get a blinkered view of the profession either with PvP blinkers or Holy trinity blinkers as witnessed by some of the comments I see here and in game. What people in general do(even experienced players) is not look beyond their experience and go along with the fotm thinking, be it in PvP or PvE.
The same issue is as it always has been is that by and large people will take the easiest route. Before Gwen it was the Tank Nuke Heal, now it's the Ursan. That is'nt a mesmer issue; but a people one.
Rule 1 of GW seems to be, If there is a cheap and lazy way to do things, most people will do it.
There is no such thing as an optimal mix of professions. There are so many variables that are context sensitive (such as player skill, build, the area, the spawn etc etc) that one cannot 100% simply say profession X is not as optimal as profession Y, one can only speak in generalties.
I kinda know the way this thread will go, as we've seen countless variations over the years and months. The only statement that is true here, is that if you enjoy playing it do it, if not no one is forcing you to go do something else.
With mobs having fast attack speeds, high armor, resistance to elemetal attacks the role of an armor ignoring damage, shutdown class is increased not diminished. I see more opportunites for mesmers to shine in PvE now, than I did a year or so ago not less.
With respect few people play with multiple mesmers in a team to really see how efficient they can be. Most people will take along a token one or 2, but not use them to the maximum of their potential. They either turn them into FC nukers, farmers, rezmers, bonders or some other profession-a-like and not look at the synegies possible when you use 3 4 or even 5.
In general people get a blinkered view of the profession either with PvP blinkers or Holy trinity blinkers as witnessed by some of the comments I see here and in game. What people in general do(even experienced players) is not look beyond their experience and go along with the fotm thinking, be it in PvP or PvE.
The same issue is as it always has been is that by and large people will take the easiest route. Before Gwen it was the Tank Nuke Heal, now it's the Ursan. That is'nt a mesmer issue; but a people one.
Rule 1 of GW seems to be, If there is a cheap and lazy way to do things, most people will do it.
There is no such thing as an optimal mix of professions. There are so many variables that are context sensitive (such as player skill, build, the area, the spawn etc etc) that one cannot 100% simply say profession X is not as optimal as profession Y, one can only speak in generalties.
I kinda know the way this thread will go, as we've seen countless variations over the years and months. The only statement that is true here, is that if you enjoy playing it do it, if not no one is forcing you to go do something else.
Vinraith
The only reason I don't have a mesmer is that my necro main uses mesmer secondary skills so often that it's not a new or different playing experience to have a mesmer primary for me.
Oh, and anyone that thinks heroes are always better interrupters than humans isn't paying much attention to what their heroes are interrupting. It's speed over priority, and in a lot of circumstances priority wins.
Oh, and anyone that thinks heroes are always better interrupters than humans isn't paying much attention to what their heroes are interrupting. It's speed over priority, and in a lot of circumstances priority wins.
Chicken Ftw
I don't see where adding more and more mesmers to a group makes taking the first more viable than taking someone of another profession. Shutdown/damage via hexes? Necromancer. Shutdown via interrupts? Ranger. Damage? Elementalist, warrior. If you can't name a role where a mesmer outperforms another class, I can't see the use in bringing one. It's not about laziness, it's about efficiency.
Painbringer
I would love to see if the players that are successful with a Mesmer are only Solo PVE players. I am sure there many godly players out there that Do not PVP or Group up just for the reason that people have the Mesmer hate. You just need to read a few posts here to get that the disillusioned idea in your head. Many posts talk about damage output being the only use factor. What you do not see is the effects of stopping healing or stopping of foes damage output. The advantage of shutdown is undervalued IMO.
On purpose I ran all the campaigns with only Mesmer Skills and no secondary skills. I had no problem with any area. The experience I gained from playing this non typical style is priceless. Narrow vision is the death of creativity. Multiple classes are available to you in this game which means you have a NEW Guild Wars to play with each of them. Open your eyes to a new way to look at GW. Is there one way to do things????? Only if you think like the masses and succumb. 1000 of skill combos out there 1000 of possibilities.
On purpose I ran all the campaigns with only Mesmer Skills and no secondary skills. I had no problem with any area. The experience I gained from playing this non typical style is priceless. Narrow vision is the death of creativity. Multiple classes are available to you in this game which means you have a NEW Guild Wars to play with each of them. Open your eyes to a new way to look at GW. Is there one way to do things????? Only if you think like the masses and succumb. 1000 of skill combos out there 1000 of possibilities.
Chicken Ftw
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Darksun
I can't understand why Rangers would ever be considered better at interrupting. their interrupts are slow as hell & do crap damage. It's nice that DS stops any actions, but it doesn't matter if you can't actually interrupt. Even the AI (which is impossibly fast) misses with Rangers. Mesmers never do and can do it for large chunks of dmg.
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D??esseBrighid
My personal opinion is that mesmers are the hardest class to play, but who knows, someone else might think they're easy. But if they're easy, why aren't there more of them?
Ctb
Quote:
| Also, if you can't interrupt, you shouldn't be playing interrupter, no? |
Like most other things the Ranger does, he does it best as a support character. He can interrupt, he can tank, he can spike, and he can degen, but all those things can be done better by other classes that can effectively dedicate themselves to those specializations. The Ranger rounds out the team by playing that support role and spreading his skills over a wider range of functions, which is the whole point of the Ranger.
Quote:
| mesmers are the hardest class to play |
In other words, you can just spam random crap all over and do all right, but to be really good with a mesmer, I think it does require substantially more practice than most other professions.
Esan
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Shanaeri Rynale
With mobs having fast attack speeds, high armor, resistance to elemetal attacks the role of an armor ignoring damage, shutdown class is increased not diminished. I see more opportunites for mesmers to shine in PvE now, than I did a year or so ago not less.
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Shutdown is for chumps.
arcady
As a player of two mesmers, and someone who brings gwen along regularly with my other toons - Mesmer is -the- most powerful class in PvE.
Flat out it outperforms everything else.
But...
No one will believe you on this unless they know how to play a mesmer and know how to use their mesmer hero. And most people know neither.
Play of a mesmer is a little more complicated than other classes. That said I consider myself bad at it, and they still outperform my other toons - and I consider myself above average in several of those (I'm better than most people I meet on E, W, R, and Mo, not as good on D or Rt).
People assume the class is a lot harder than it is, and they assume that it is weak or impossible to play, so they don't try it.
I always try to invite mesmers into PUGs when I see them - knowing that they are the difference between a hard PUG and an easy PUG. But I hear a lot of people purposefully don't invite them, preferring Wa/Mo's and monks with all elementalist spells and some of the other madness I've seen in PUGs...
Flat out it outperforms everything else.
But...
No one will believe you on this unless they know how to play a mesmer and know how to use their mesmer hero. And most people know neither.
Play of a mesmer is a little more complicated than other classes. That said I consider myself bad at it, and they still outperform my other toons - and I consider myself above average in several of those (I'm better than most people I meet on E, W, R, and Mo, not as good on D or Rt).
People assume the class is a lot harder than it is, and they assume that it is weak or impossible to play, so they don't try it.
I always try to invite mesmers into PUGs when I see them - knowing that they are the difference between a hard PUG and an easy PUG. But I hear a lot of people purposefully don't invite them, preferring Wa/Mo's and monks with all elementalist spells and some of the other madness I've seen in PUGs...
Antheus
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Every other caster should be punished with SS, SV, and the occasional well-placed Pain Inverter. Shutdown is for chumps. |
I also fail to see why SS would be optimal against casters. It's great against physical attackers, but casters will be spamming their spells.
It's not until you shut them down that they start using regular attacks, when SS is most effective.
Pain inverter is also a somewhat poor comparison - one can also use Ursan.
Needless to say, obsflesh tank and 5 nukers will work really well for just about anything. Doesn't mean there aren't alternatives.
Quote:
| Any build that does not use the increased attack speed in HM to kill foes faster is playing sub-optimally |
Ctb
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Esan
Rubbish and hogwash. Any build that does not use the increased attack speed in HM to kill foes faster is playing sub-optimally. Attackers should be neutralized with weakening and blindness, neither being a mesmer's forte. The only casters that truly need to be shut down are AoE nukers or the occasionaly dual monk group, and these are rare enough to be counted on one hand across all three campaigns and an expansion. Every other caster should be punished with SS, SV, and the occasional well-placed Pain Inverter.
Shutdown is for chumps. |
darkdreamr
Quote:
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Originally Posted by glountz
No. But I won't loose my time explaining in details why since you're rejecting Avarre's post so easily. In short, the best shutdown in PVE is the death status. You have to survive while killing the fastest way possible. Mesmer don't kill as fast as other synergised professions. "armor ignoring spike damage"? You need DPS in PVE, not spike. <long list of reasons mesmers are worse than other classes>
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Chicken Man
I don't see where adding more and more mesmers to a group makes taking the first more viable than taking someone of another profession. Shutdown/damage via hexes? Necromancer. Shutdown via interrupts? Ranger. Damage? Elementalist, warrior. If you can't name a role where a mesmer outperforms another class, I can't see the use in bringing one. It's not about laziness, it's about efficiency.
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Chicken Ftw
Quote:
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Originally Posted by arcady
Mesmer is -the- most powerful class in PvE.
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Quote:
| It's not about efficiency, it's about laziness. You think a warrior does more damage than a single empathy hex? Or a ranger can shut down a HM monk better than a mesmer can? Too many people learn this game from some pug groups that end up doing well and refuse to believe in any alternative |
Mad King Corn
I never had a hard time getting a group with my mesmer, in fact, there were times where a pug was actually looking for a mesmer. They rock in PVE, despite what others would have you believe.
Esan
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Antheus
GW:EN is full of mobs with hex removal.
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Quote:
| I also fail to see why SS would be optimal against casters. It's great against physical attackers, but casters will be spamming their spells. |
Quote:
| How exactly does this negate mesmers? |
Yichi
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Esan
...Every other caster should be punished with SS, SV, and the occasional well-placed Pain Inverter...
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Vinraith
Why do people keep trying to compare SS and empathy? SS is an elite, of course it's better, but then you only get the one. This debate's focussed wrong anyway, not being a mesmer primary doesn't prevent you from bringing mesmer skills. The real question to my mind is why you'd bring fast casting over soul reaping for a hex caster. For interrupts fast casting is useful, sure, but for hexes isn't nearly infinite energy a lot more valuable?
Vinraith
Quote:
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Originally Posted by MistressYichi
Yes because SV works so well on someone casting a spell and not attacking...
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For 5...17 seconds, whenever target foe attacks or casts a Spell on a creature with less Health, that foe loses 25...85 Health.
Yichi
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Vinraith
Actually yeah, it does.
For 5...17 seconds, whenever target foe attacks or casts a Spell on a creature with less Health, that foe loses 25...85 Health. |
Guess I'm used to hearing it from the SS/SV nec lf 55...
(since we were talking about Mesmers, it was a natural reaction to a mesmer skill
)