Why are there virtually no mesmers ingame?

This has to be your best post I ever read. (If we disregard the assumptions you made of course!)
You're probably asking why the love all of a sudden.
The mesmer has a spot in PvE. Just like you said!
That thing that we (well some of us that feel that mesmer has issues) are arguing is that that spot isn't in the TOP 4.
It works - like pretty much everything else.
It's just that there are enough things that work better.

Ohh and the stereotype about mesmer being godly in PvP while being shit in PvE isn't stopping them from shining.
It's PvE that is stopping them.

So adding in a Mesmer that can do 100+ in the Area blast damage isn't DPS efficient? You know, the echoed CoP combo when a mob is low on HP can very quickly kill them off. And with the stagnant pace of PvE, the recharge means..oh, nothing? Please, a 2 monk group? hahahah, a 2 monk group with 2 mesmers in your group becomes a 0 monk group in short order. As you said, AI is dumb, and mesmers rip through smart players quickly, so I wonder what they do to scripted dummies? Avarre, your taking the stance that a Mesmer is outclassed by another class, and shouldn't ever be in PvE. You, quite bluntly, are just wrong. There really is no other word for it, your just plain WRONG. I know that isn't something you are used to hearing, but tis true I am afraid. Continual DPS... oh, I didn't realize that 400-500 DPS in 2 seconds and recharging 10-12 seconds later is bad DPS.

Let's see... 8 pips of degen = -16 hp a second. So, 160 damage.

Assume a 108 Cry of Pain.

(108x2) = 216 + 160 = 376

376/15 = 25 DPS (from 3 skills)

Now, let's add in a shatter hex to that equation.

376+126= 502/15 = 33.47 DPS

Now, let's assume a HM Warrior Boss with 160 AL.

Searing flames @ 16 FM = 18.74 dmg.

Assuming burning as on him constantly via Mark of Rodgort, and you hit him 6x (assuming quick recharge 20% of the 5 possible casts in 15 seconds) that would be... 6x 19 = 114 dmg in 15 seconds.

114/15 = 7.6 DPS. EDIT: (burning = 334 dmg/15 secs = 22.3 DPS)

Hmmmm..... So in 15 seconds the mesmer has dished out 376 dmg using 3 skills, 4 if you include the arcane echo itself.

A searing flames ele has dished out 114 using 7 skills (that includes initial mark of rodgort cast) Alrighty.... yep, the ele wins for sure.

EDIT: I forgot burning, that was silly of me. 7x2= 14 x 15 = 210


so 334 dmg in 15 seconds. More respectable with burning calculated obviously, but I do believe the Mesmer is still out damaging the Ele here. Mesmers are underestimated.

Exactly. No one is saying Mesmers are sh*t. They're certainly not that. It's just that they aren't that great, either for PvE. There are better classes, and in a perfect world where when forming a PuG, you have the choice of any number of any class with the best player possible at the helm of each, the Mesmer would still be the last picked.

Elementalists are not the best DPS classes. Physicals are.

And your entire block of Mesmergasmic numbers can be mimicked on another class because both Echo and Cry Of Pain are only Mesmer skills because they're placed in the skill list. They use no Mesmer attributes.

I could put all that on a Necromancer, have better energy management from Soul Reaping, and the rest of my skillbar would be even better because it wouldn't be tied to Illusion. You make a point for skills in the Mesmer class, but not for Mesmers at all because these skills aren't any better on a Mesmer, or even in the Mesmer attribute lines in the first place. I explained this above, perhaps you skimmed it.

See - you didn't get it. This is what I was going at.
To seriously state it as simply as possible because you either can't understand it or won't understand it:
The evolved trinity doesn't include the ele any longer!
So it makes absolutely NO SENSE comparing the mesmer to the ele!

That's not really a comparison between a Mesmer and a SF ele, that's a comparison between a guy with some PvE skills and a SF Ele.

No, the Assassin and or Paragon would fill that role.

In order of things, it usually goes as follows (most popular to least) The similar symbols mean they are interchangeable.

Monk
$Elementalist
$Warrior
*Necromancer
*Ranger
Dervish
%Mesmer
%Ritualist
Paragon
Assassin


No, that is using Signet of Illusions @ 16 Illusion Magic. Meaning r11 Sunspear, GL getting that on any other character. Up it to 18 illusion for r13 sunspear for fun.

Yep, I know your amazing necromancer can get r11 sunspear, just like the rest of your characters... wait. ANd your necro can cast all those spells in near spike speed because of fast casting, because N/Mes have fast casting because of their amazing ..soul reaping...oh, again...wait...

However, I won't argue with you regarding Physicals. Warriors and Dervish rip up PvE, until you run into pesky blind/blocking. Then, things change. A Mesmer will never compete with a warrior for dominance in PvE, period. But they do give necros and eles a run for their money via PvE only skills coupled with their utility skills. The new E-Burn is amazing in PvE. Great armor ignoring damage, as is Aneurysm.

I think he means AoE dps. Even there, eles aren't king. Necros are.

Actually, if we allow PvE only skills, then necros have the highest indefinitely sustainable single-target dps with Necrosis.

SOI + 18 Illusion Magic + Necrosis = Me/N > N/X. Mesmers seem to have this uncanny ability to play a primary caster class better then the primary caster itself can play.

Not that SS Necros and MMs are not great, because they are. Pain Inverter + SS + Spoil = fun times.

Cry of Pain is 1/4 cast, in the first place. In the second, you just said;
But apparently a slight differentiation in 2s casts (Arcane echo) and lower matters? Do you want me to take you seriously?

Not to mention 1 rank of sunspear is practically negligible given the fact you're giving up your elite slot to do it, compared to the Necro (in this example) who could run Spiteful Spirit. Not the best way to be efficient, good sir.

Let's not even go into the fact that in this example you ignored the fact that Soul Reaping is still probably the best Primary attribute in the game and Fast Casting by comparison is a joke - allowing the Necromancer to cram their skillbar further with skills that do things because they need less energy management.

Let me get this straight:
1. first you trash what is probably the most insane class in the game
2. then you trash what is the most insane PvE primary attribute

And you still hope to be EVER taken seriously?
Dude, seriously stop while you are not that insanely far behind.

As long as no other elites are used, perhaps. But then your argument boils down to mesmers are the best one-trick ponies in the game. I didn't think this point was in dispute.

I was more or less talking hypothetically, and with the idea that the leader of this 'dream team' is the "best GW player ever," whoever that might be (hypothetical, remember?). That said, what classes are chosen is dependant on the usefulness (damage/heal/prot/utility/synergy) of the class. With all of that, Mesmers are chosen last, if at all.

And yeah... Soul Reaping so owns Fast Casting it's not even funny.

Funny thats he keeps bragging Mesmer to be damage dealer which mesmer is not essentially designed for. Mesmer is primarily shutdown class but still inferior to ranger for shutting down pve.

Id take SR than FC tbh. Whats the point having to spam spells bit faster if the energy doesnt keep up.

My point is that you can't compare PvE skills to normal skills, PvE skills are naturally better. And if you want to bring PvE skills into the equation, grab a bear.

A matter of preference. Some players prefer to mindlessly thrash their way through equally mindless PvE monster-masses while others prefer to do so with a little more thought behind what they're doing. It works because many of us are good at it.

With all this build wars and stat munching I can't help but feel the fun factor and personal preference of playing a mesmer in PvE has got lost.

Sure, you're never likely to be in demand for most PUG's and that's probably the main reason you don't see many of them. But avoiding narrow-minded PUG's can be a blessing and if you're having alot fun with H/H and guildies/friends then who can really say you're doing something wrong?

Oh, but mindless thrashing is efficient and great. And we all know that Guild Wars is so important that we must be razor blade exacting and 10% entropy release efficient should we hope to ever be considered a good player.

See this thread for details:
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10204029

Go go super efficient unfun gameplay. Just what I look for when buying a game, mindless AI that can be conquered by almost equally mindless players who lack any form of skill and just happen to have more coordination then a script... well jee, says a lot for our community of players doesn't it? Learn to have fun people, seriously.


Yes, I agree completely. Mesmers are just fun, they just happen to actual be semi efficient now as well. PUGs are for idiots anyways, get some friends and make a guild for God's sake.

Nobody. My PvE character is a Mesmer. The argument is not that they character doesn't work, or isn't fun, but that it doesn't work as well as other classes and therefore is less common to see.

Yeah, Cry of Pain takes a lot of thought and skill to use (especially when echo'ed). As does the application of say, Backfire, or Empathy.

Really.

Oh, you finally make a valid point. Backfire, however, is a bad example, as any mesmer using that skill except for the very few exceptions, needs to rework their skill bar.



@Ensign; I would like cake as well. Please bake the following:

One 18.25 ounce package chocolate cake mix. One can prepared coconut pecan frosting. Three slash four cup vegetable oil. Four large eggs. One cup semi-sweet chocolate chips. Three slash four cups butter or margarine. One and two third cups granulated sugar. Two cups all purpose flour. Don't forget garnishes such as: Fish shaped crackers. Fish shaped candies. Fish shaped solid waste. Fish shaped dirt. Fish shaped ethyl benzene. Pull and peel licorice. Fish shaped volatile. Fish shaped organic compounds and sediment shaped sediment. Candy coated peanut butter pieces. Shaped like fish. One cup lemon juice. Alpha resins. Unsaturated polyester resins. Fiberglass surface resins. And volatile malted milk impoundments. Nine large egg yolks. Twelve medium geosynthetic membranes. One cup granulated sugar. An entry called 'how to kill someone with your bare hands.' Two cups rhubarb, sliced. Two slash three cups granulated rhubarb. One tablespoon all-purpose rhubarb. One teaspoon grated orange rhubarb. Three tablespoons rhubarb, on fire. One large rhubarb. One cross borehole electro-magnetic imaging rhubarb. Two tablespoons rhubarb juice. Adjustable aluminum head positioner. Slaughter electric needle injector. Cordless electric needle injector. Injector needle driver. Injector needle gun. Cranial caps. And it contains proven preservatives, deep penetration agents, and gas and odor control chemicals. That will deodorize and preserve putrid tissue.

Put on a side of misunderstanding, and dress with generous stereotyping.

Cakes are consumables, therefore PvE-only. Lame.

This really is the moral to the story, and why I play a Mesmer. The point to this thread is that they are not as effective as other classes, overrated by some, perhaps underrated by others. And even still, I personally think they are the most fun class to play. I love my Ranger, and my Necro, and my Warrior, but if I had to choose, it would be my Mesmer that I would keep. Not because he has titles or gear (cause all he has is crap), but because of how fun it is to play.

Personally, I love my SOI build...

No actually, I don't. This is because Cry of Pain takes no skill at all to use. Unless you sometimes forget to hex the target first or something.

We want any more nonsense in this thread (either argumentative or cake-related) before the end?

Auspicious Incantation -> Conjure Nightmare -> Signet of Illusions -> Cry of Pain

Man, to think I've been too busy spamming Mind Blast and Rodgort's Invocation to think of this combination before now... Wowee.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre We want any more nonsense in this thread (either argumentative or cake-related) before the end?

Go to hell, GLaDOS.

A descent player controlled mezmer is always beter then any hero. And that's enough for me to let em into a party.

Oh right, ANet removed all the other skills from the mesmer skill-list and left them only with these three (or four with Echo) to play with. My bad

You still haven't told me what skills make Mesmers less mindless than another class.

Mesmers might not be the best PvE profession.

But they have their tricks and gimmicks and can hold their own and contribute.

The main problem is the anti-mesmer-hate. A problem the Paragon class which can provide supreme support to any party funnily suffers from, too.


Heck, recently I suggested a new player by all means NOT to start with a mesmer because of this. There are issues, sure, but they get multiplied by the people and then we have such a sad result in the end.

Sorry, I don't answer rhetorical questions. Why should I bother when you have clearly stated your opinion on the matter?

Skipping 10 pages, will catch up on them later today (lunch break atm).

To the op:

Mesmer is my most played profession (about 1/3 of total PvE time), but you will hardly ever see him outside guild teams (mostly HM).
The main reason is that I want my mesmer to fit in a team build and most PuGs don't do team builds.

I don't know, I was under the impression that mesmas could be found virtually everywhere.

Everyone trying to justify a Mesmer as a legitimately strong PvE character by putting a bunch of conditional damage skills on a bar fails.

I guess that would be true of anyone saying the same of any class? E.g Necro's for SS, pargons using echos and refrains, and Assasins that rely on combo's to cause damage(must follow a lead attack etc etc)?

-------

This thread has become troll infested, like all the other mesmer debate ones there have ever been. Fact is it's easier to post negative, arrogant or inflamatory comments, than try and be postive and creative, so for those who want to be postive and creative i guess time to go elsewhere secure in the knowledge that no matter what they play they'll be having fun. Is'nt that the whole point after all?

That would be because the answer to the OP's question is obvious and has been debated over and over; mesmers have always been a *rare* class to play in PvE simply because the other choices (tank, nuker, healer) are more attractive.

To save the mesmer and to justify his spot in PVE, A-Net simply need to rework mobs, not the mesmah. Mobs must have a finite energy so e-denial might be an option, normal cast time so mez interrupts would be worth the spot, rezs, monks in every groups with decent skillbar so fights could last long enough for the mesmer to get his full potential, and Ai able to learn positionning (because pulling mobs to ball them up with splinterbarrage of the death is simply too easy) so the mesmer can be useful. The issue lies in mob's design, not in mesmer's one.

You play to have fun? Freak!

Ok, first off I wasnt after a debate about whether a mesma was a powerfull character or whether a mesma was effective. All classes can either do damage, support, tank or be used in any form you wish. Whether that damage is large or small means nothing either, just look at spike elementals who do small damage but can spike that damage repeatadly.

Also all classes can be usefull in both pve and pvp if you use them right. Obviously if your new to a class like I am with a mesma, then im sure im not that great. But you learn fast!

My question was why there are so few of them around (from the experience ive had of the last few weeks of being one). I serously doubt there are so few because they dont do enough damage. If that was true then why do people play other professions which yeild low damage?

Some people have also suggested there are few mesmas because they dont serve a usefull purpose in a group. How is interupting, power draining, degen or causing backfire on spells not usefull? Ofcourse it is! All professions can be usefull.

The only difference (as some have said) is you dont get a cool animation to clearly show the effects of a mesma on a creature. You dont get the cool nuking or burning effects you do from an elemental, you dont get the cool diseassed effects you do from a necro, you dont get cool healing effects like with monks. You generally stand at the back and cast spells which dont look spectacular, but proberbly have alot of impact.

Its a shame because when fighting most mesma creatures, they can be a right pain in the ass and make your life difficult with interupting, draining energy or causing backfire. So why are people so negative towards having mesmas in pugs or playing the profession as a whole?

They are obviously a powerfull profession, whether it be damage or some other attacking form.

Can we try to avoid this trolling of "mesmas just suck" and have some intelligent input as to why its such an unpopular class to play in pve?

My input would be the lack of decent armor and the really bad male models which just look fat and unattractive. I would say its because you get get the same feeling of having an inpact as you do with other classes.

We need some apeal added to that profession, and I think better spell animations would help. Maybe give mesmas more of a pressance on the field when fighting? Make it more obvious when a mesma has cast a spell on a creature and so we see their playing their part.

Lemme show you my Warrior Party Healer build!

Question: Why are you still spelling Mesmer wrong?

When the people will realize that echoed cry of pain spike makes the work done about everything except bosses/extremenly durable foes. Though you can use this as /Me too.