Why are there virtually no mesmers ingame?

You're doing it wrong.

We need more mesma jokes, not enough mesma jokes. Comedy gold people!

If you read the thread, you'll see that a large reason is because of their relevant effectiveness being lower, the class is simply less popular. It has very little to do with how the abilities look (how visible is "Save Yourselves!"?).

It looks more complex than a some other classes (influencing what new players choose), it is less similar to classes in other games (and thus won't attract as many new players) and it doesn't really do anything in PvE well (experienced players will tend to avoid them).

Question: Has it occurred to anyone that maybe the OP could be dyslexic? Perhaps a bit of thought wouldn't go amiss. Oh wait, nvm this is Riverside. I forgot.

It's a standard for casters in particular. If all I wanted from a character was damage I'd simply take another Warrior, Dervish, or Paragon (or bear, these days). Casters are valuable for their ability to do jobs that physicals largely cannot; damage from a caster has to be pretty spectacular for it to be anything other than am incidental, side benefit of taking that character.

Mesmer damage is not spectacular. The value of a Mesmer as a legitimately powerful PvE profession lies in its uniquely powerful utility skills, and how applicable they are to PvE.

Elementalists and Necromancers combine strong defensive (blind, weakness) and compact AoE offense, with strong energy management to power PvE skills along with their core competencies. Ritualists are Monk hybrids that happen to have the best AoE damage skill in the game (Splinter Weapon) with Ancestor's Rage to boot. Mesmers on the other hand have sketchier energy than any other caster profession, and their uniquely powerful effects are much more niche. While there are situations where Hex Eater Vortex or Frustration really shine, for the most part Mesmers are outshone by other, stronger characters splashing the most important effects onto more robust templates.

Dyslexia makes you jumble up the letters and syllables, put them out of order. It doesn't make you type like an illiterate.

Well maybe its time for you to read 10 pages long worth wall of texts.

Yeah mesma needs spell animation like Tiger rank, hey if charrs can have why cant mesma?

There isn't as many around in PvE because everything they can offer can be done better by another profession.

Ive seen people using them well in PvE, most of the builds revolve around PvE only skills but still they fall short of being effective.

I'm aware of that thanks, someone in my family has dyslexia. That said I have seen said person have more trouble than just that with spelling. Anyway, I said what I wanted to, not interested in getting into a flame war over it when I have better things to do. I just think it would be nice if people exercised a little more thought, but not much hope of that in here.

/Snip

I wrote a long reply that I've now deemed completely pointless. Fancy that!

So... all I'm going to say is 'Mes is Fun'. Yeah...


Incidentally I've been playing an embarrassing amount of AB lately (yeah I don't play Pvp seriously these days), and Mes is so much fun! Especially spreading Panic on everyone and watching people do just that.

It screws over absolutely EVERYONE who isn't afk. Touchers, spirit spam, mm's, Caster sins, invinci's, all those shitty builds and then some. Nothing beats pissing people off and becoming public enemy number one with just a skill-bar in GW... ^_^

...What were you all talking about again?

I think I've run into four mesmers in the 17 months I've played this game. Seems like people play them but only bring them out once every blue moon to buy them some ridiculously expensive armor.

I have two friends who are dyslexic also. The OP is continually mis-spelling only the one word, which has been corrected many times over the course of this thread. You can't be dyslexic with only one word. It's usually something like getting letter orders wrong, or writing a letter the wrong way round, not selective mispelling.

My point was simply, that with so many corrections throughout this entire thread, and the character actually spelt correctly in game, it would be right to try and spell it correctly from now on given that spelling and grammar is actually one of the rules of posting.

That, and I'm an English Nazi. I've done a double major in history and literature, which i've just finished and have spent most of my life correcting the pronunciation of my very German mother, thus it irritates me when people blatantly continue to misspell, or use words incorrectly when there is no reason for it.

Just read the entire thread. Wow.

You know - maybe some of you should read this sitting down - not everyone plays this game just to be the biggest baddest most-damage-dealing solo-hero-type they can possibly be. Some *GASP* play to have fun. Not to say they wish to play weak, ineffective characters (although some builds I've seen does question that). Simply they are content to be as good a support <insert profession here> as they can for the team.

Husband and I are fortunate enough to have a few people whom we team with on a regular basis (all campaigns and GWEN). He plays either his warrior or monk primarilly, but I have one of everything except 'sin (never warmed up to them even tho I tried and tried several times) and two monks. There are times when the team asks me to bring my mesmer. Not because I'm the best mesmer in GW. Not because my mesmer will kill every foe in the blink of an eye and twirl of the skirt. Not even because they think my mesmer the most beautifully arrogant 'toon they've ever encountered. But because she helps 'soften up' particularly difficult foe to take them down faster. And, like my ranger, she often targets/eliminates whatever support party that foe may have that is making their take-down difficult.

I guess what I'm saying is, in part, this: Other classes may be and are better at some things than a mesmer. Like someone else stated, it's not necessarily the fault of the profession, but rather the ludicrous AI of the foe (unlimited energy pools, uber-fast cast and recharge, etc.).

If all you're looking for is a statistically superior proven damage causing class, don't play a mesmer.

If you're wanting to be the Golden Hero who rids the world of evil single-handedly, don't play a mesmer.

If you want to be part of a team, know your profession well enough to make decent decisions on effective skills, have a thick enough skin to ignore the rude taunts of stereotyping individuals who can't be bothered to engage brain before opening chat and you are content to not be in the spotlight, give the mesmer a try.

The biggest thing about mesmers is that for the same amount of output as any other caster they require almost twice the skill level of the player.

They are not an easy proff to play, but are just as effective as any other class if you know how to use them.

A mesmer set to kill physical attackers for example with [skill]Ineptitude[/skill][skill]Clumsiness[/skill][skill]Signet of Clumsiness[/skill][skill]Wandering Eye[/skill][skill]Images of Remorse[/skill][skill]Sum of All Fears[/skill] can take out any physical attacker in seconds or at the very least prevent that foe from doing anything.

The same can be said for an anti-caster build. The mesmer simply requires more work than other classes and thus is less fun for most people to play, not less effective.

Rofl!

This made me lol

There are definitely mesmers out there. My mesmer has become my primary charactor and title hunter. Wouldn't trade her for anything!

Agreed tho there is a lot of mesmer hate, so when I am playing its usually with my husband and 6 hero's or myself, 3 hero's and 4 hench.

That's great, but the question was why are there so few Mesmers. The reason is because quite a lot of people play this game for that very point. Telling everyone how that doesn't matter to you is one thing, but that doesn't change the reasoning of others, and it doesn't do anything for the discussion.

Did you just type this as an attempt to troll? Other classes need to have well-designed skillsets and have proper team co-ordination just as much as a Mesmer in PvE. It would seem you just tried to make a link between 'playing a Mesmer' and 'knowing your profession', which really doesn't make any sense at all. I'd also explore the amusement of you taking the common, unsupported stand while calling others 'stereotyping individuals who can't be bothered to engage brain' but I'm not in the mood to edit down a flame war.

I'm seeing this a lot, and not seeing anyone back it up. What about playing a Mesmer takes more skill than any other class in PvE? I've yet to get a solid answer.

Sins are hated waaaaay more.
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Gl to ya though.

Yes, that's true, but keep in mind this is against a single opponent.

Inepitude has a 20 second recharge. That's not going to be the most effective way to take out Mobs. (and I'm saying this as a Mesmer player!)

My suggestion: Buff Mesmers so they are more effective in PvE!

This class is all about manipulation, and some people just aren't deep enough thinkers with the abilities to make the mesmer class shine like it can. On another note, I think if there were more straightforward visual animations that other players in your party could easily see that would boost the mesmers reputation a bit. The first example that comes to mind is energy denial. Maybe if enemy AI had an energy bar under the health bar, then people could see that your doing something useful. Or even some type of aura "think miasma" around the enemy AI that gives others an indication of what spell you've just cast on the enemy.

Considering that it is a proper name, I agree that "Mesmer" should be spelled correctly...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesmer

There's lots of problems with mesmer as a PvE profession.

Consider two of the basic starting skills: Empathy & Backfire. One good vs. physical attackers, one good vs. casters, either is wasted if cast on the wrong type of enemy. Compare that to something simple like an axe attack that does extra damage, and it's a no-brainer (literally). From the very start, mesmer skills are more specific and more limited in usage. It gives a bad impression compared to other classes that are more general purpose in nature, and makes it much more difficult to start out with a mesmer than any other class.

Combine that with the limited number of starting skills are characters get. Most starter builds are pretty lame, but at least most characters don't have to rely on a specific type of enemy in order to use their skills. (Assassins and others may use synergies and skill chains, but they are dependent on their own skill usage, not the enemy, except in rare circumstances. Mesmers are far more limited by the type of enemy being faced than any other class.)

Possible solutions ... take illusion magic and do damage! Yeah, right. As others have pointed out, mesmers cannot compare to others in PvE as damage dealers, the numbers just don't add up. OK, so go domination and interrupt/shutdown! Not a bad idea, but again, there is the problem of skills being highly dependent on what the enemy does, but even more importantly, as others have pointed out, the AI NPC's are better at it than any human player who is limited by human reaction time and the vagaries of his/her internet connection. Common endpoint --> "OK then I'll take Empathy, and Backfire, and Conjure Illusion, and Cry of Frustration, and Elemental Resistance, and have one or two skills to deal with any situation!" = mesmer skillbar that just sucks, because only one or two skills will end up being useful at any given time = reinforces the general impression that mesmers suck as a profession.

Next, as you get more skills, well gee, other classes get more general-purpose skills AND they get more specific, conditional type skills. (Go from a generic damage axe attack to one that depends on deep wound, Dwayna's instead of Orison, etc.) But the mesmer is still as dependent as ever before, if not more so. Now other classes have even more options, and can be specific if they want to, but they don't have to. Mesmers still have to specialize to be effective, they just have more skills to choose from...what a gd pain that is, huh?

Side effect: unless you already have skill unlocks, already know what monsters you face in each area, and already have multiple builds prepared ahead of time, mesmers generally seem to spend more time tweaking and setting up in town than any other profession. That means if I take a mesmer in a PUG and he's unprepared, I'm almost always going to be wasting time waiting. Combined with the other things already mentioned, there's a pretty decent chance if he's a new mesmer that his skill choices are very limited, and so is his effectiveness. Result = most people don't want mesmers in PUG's, only mesmers they already know (and sometimes not them either tbh).

What else? Oh yeah, the highly skilled and effective PvE human-player mesmer. Does such exist? Sure, I've even PUG'd with a few who were very good in their effectiveness at stomping AI. The few I've seen like that all were experienced players with a wide array of unlocks, and often played PvP more than PvE. (Yes, I asked.) The thing is, most of us never reach that point because how boring and frustrating it is to level up a PvE mesmer in the first place.

Bottom line for me: I finally managed to keep a mesmer, out of all the ones I've started and deleted. She turns a year old next month. And she's still level 17, because she's about the most boring character I've ever played. That's only my opinion, but fwiw, there it is.

Elaborate more. I see this all the time, usually unsupported.

Sounds like you need to play an Illusionary Weapon Mesmer....

but, as you say, you first have to get the Elite skill to enjoy it.

Mesmer was the first character I got to level 20. I took it because I rarely saw other Mesmers around and wanted to be different.

To get into groups, I took met shower and arcane echo. I think I also had Empathy, Backfire, some energy gain spells, etc. All in all, I had no trouble finding groups to take me (this was back in 2005, and there WAS actually competition to get into groups!), and people seemed to find my character competent.

Of course, I could have been even better as a Fire Ele with 16 fire and arcane echo, but I justfied my choice with the fast casting... (I could get off multiple Met Showers faster than an ele).

Why so few mesmer in pve? because mesmer skills are weak to pve and you need a lot of exp to play as a mesmer... choose the correct target... stay away from damage... some good time to cast...

I see people talking about cry of pain... 5 skills to do 100 damage and wait for 15 seconds for recharge is ... 3 mesmer 300 damge every 15 seconds... 3 sf eles hummm 40 damage every... 4 seconds? 15 seconds... 120? x 3 360... some meteors to help some degen... 500 damage every 15 seconds? sure...

Mesmers are a brain class... not a mass damage class...

3 SS necros? 15 seconds 5 actions 37 damage each... 185? x 3 555 damage every 15 seconds... plus some minions + some degen 700 damage every 15 seconds?

Mesmer hole in a party is... monk killer, boss killer... kill something harder to kill
how i kill glint before its easy to kill? Spirit of Failure + Spirit Shackles + some chance to miss skills + blind glinth simple dont cast any one skill... i dont need interupt glint because glint dont have energy to cast and cant hit no one because blind or have a great miss chance...

The only way you can make mesmers a big help to kill foes is like cond spreader. spread deep wound, blind, weakness and dazed is precilless... or make the mesmer a 1 foe killer per time...

well if you in a friendly party you can play as ele/mo party healer or a rit/necro mm or 8 monks party... with your friends you can play any build you want... you can play a bar with 5 skill to cause 100 damage every 15 seconds...

P.S i love mesmer class and everytime i can i use one in my party... but you need to understand mesmer not a pve destroyer is a pve helper...

sorry about my weak english

If they Buff mesmer for PvE like reducing the recharge on ineptitude. It will just cause problems for the PvP side. Mesmers are fine the way the are tyvm

Hmm.
Read the OP. Mesmer was spelt wrong repeatedly.

And I'm assuming the other 12 pages is a flame war ("MEZMARS SUCK LOLOL!!!11!" ... "NO U!!!") 'debating' the (lack of) effectiveness of the Mesmer class in PvE, with only a couple of people truly having a clue (.... likely Avarre and Ensign ).

Am I correct? Or do I have to read?

Well, I'd eventually like to see a spilt between PvP and PvE skills.

Anet is going that direction with PvE only skills, but I wonder if it would be possible to split regular skills as well.

Stormlord Alex: yep. Pretty much.

Your right
1234567890

Personally i think it is fine the way it is. PvE has its range of overpowered PvE skills although not many would be useful to a mesmer. But then again most of the pve skills are useless for a monk too. I really hope ANet wont split normal skills into pvp and pve skills.
For a start it probably would be very hard to keep track of all the changes made to the skills.
EDIT: sorry for double post -_-

I still think the debate goes:

"Mesmers suck for DPS"

"Yes, but they look sexy."

Anyone who has played HM knows that DPS isnt the only thing that matters. And i dont mean playing HM as in 1 tank and everyone else nuke the crap out of the aggored mob.

obviously, I was kidding around...

I hoped it was obvious anyway!

Didnt see the quotation marks xD

There's no real need to elaborate. Alot of mesmer skills are situational. You need to think ahead and prep a skill bar in advance for the enemies your fighting.

You want support? Here's the description of a Guildwars Mesmer from the Professions Info section here on Guru:

Mesmer
Mesmers are the masters of the counter. Whatever another character does they have a way of countering it. Of preventing it, of ignoring it, of reducing or eliminating it. Depending on their skills and their inclination Mesmers can ruin absolutely anyone?s day by preventing them from doing what it is they want to do.

Mesmers are the masters of shutting down single targets.

Yes, that's the abstract of the Mesmer class. That's the theory behind the idea of the class. Where exactly does this 'deep thinking manipulation' come in?

Dom/Illu hexes? Select target of the appropriate melee/caster persuasion that presents the greatest threat, fire away.
Energy Denial? You pick a target and you throw it at it. Mobs don't weaponswap.
Dom nuking? Click target, press button.
Interrupting? No more so than any other class with interrupts.
Shutdown such as Blackout/Diversion? Fire at will, timing doesn't matter against groups that are not self-sustaining.

None of these things are any more 'deep' than any other class. People spend a lot of time saying Mesmers are complex, but in PvE, there really isn't any complexity because the depth of the class is in the enemy you're facing. PvE is one-dimensional, and therefore your play is also one-dimensional, compared to PvP where you have to try and create opportunities and dismantle your opponents on a tactical as well as character level.

And how many skills do you specifically pick out for a zone, compared to how many you keep on because they work in many areas? We just had a long discussion about a dom nuker Mesmer that was entirely generic. Picking certain skills to work in a zone isn't Mesmer-specific, every class does it to some extent. The fact is, most PvE areas are the same, comprised of a bunch of melee and caster mobs that are all really the same.


To be honest I see three levels of players regarding Mesmers. They go like this, and apologies if anyone is offended. This idea sets out my view of why Mesmers do not see much play in PvE.

1) The player is new, and only sees things in simple terms of damage dealt. They think Mesmers are bad because the skills don't seem to do as much as big Elementalist spells.

2) The player has played for longer, and has experimented with the Mesmer class itself. They see how the skills work, gain an appreciation for them, and believe the Mesmer class is very solid due to certain applications where they work.

3) The player has played for a long time and examined the skills and their use comparatively in multiple areas. They believe the Mesmer works but is not as effective as other classes when played at high levels of competence due to class skill and game design.

I also feel that each stage can be likened to the general view of players in the three chapters of Guild Wars, but others' experience may vary.

New players fall in stage 1. They do not pick up the Mesmer. Older players are in stage 3. They do not keep the Mesmer or play it (unless they have no other PvE characters that are set up, like me). The thinning middle ground is noticeable in Guild Wars, and there are fewer players in stage 2 - resulting in fewer Mesmer players.

I like that tier system.

I guess I'm a 2, because I'm not a number cruncher, I don't make ideal builds, and am more likely to just shove some skills on my bar (and my heroes bars) and strut off, and hope for the best...

Plus, I get bored of playing the same build easily.

That said, I don't play my Mesmer much more anyway, so maybe I am getting older...

Ok, here is my 10c on the mesmer and why they are not played that much.

First, mesmer is about working off-target.
Putting a skill like Backfire on the main target is a waste of energy.
The target will be down in a few seconds, backfire will not last the full duration.
This is something people see and they think: mesmer is bad, they don't do much damage.
If there is no off-target (like playing with a tank and balling enemies) there is no role besides some AoE.

Second, mesmer is about psychological pressure.
I surgested a build to a guildie for RA a couple of days ago and he returned that he got some very nasty words from a couple of casters.
That was because people could not handle the pressure from the build.
Put the same spells on a NPC and they would not care less.
Sure, they can't use their skills anymore at some point... So what?
Full degen, slower casting spells, no adrenaline gain? AI don't care. Humans do.

Third, mesmer DPS is outclassed by a lot of other professions.
Except a few situations, the things a mesmer can do can be done by other professions. With better utility skills.

Fourth, mesmers are about team build (I mentioned that in my earlier post).
To be the most effective, a mesmer should fill the gaps that others create.
However, there are a lot of solid team builds that do not have gaps a mesmer could fill.
This is true for more professions, assassin most noticable.

Misconseptions about mesmers are also in the game.
Mesmer is supposed to be hard to play.
Yes, they are. Just as much as any other profession out there when you want as effective as possible.
Mesmers might have a slightly steeper learning curve than other professions (physicals have higher auto dps), but it's not harder to fully master the profession fully compared to others professions.

Mesmers suck.
That's also not true. However, because of the way (PUG) teams are created and the way the game is played most of the time, there are professions that would fit better.
It's more fair to state that (the lack of) AI sucks.

Now does all this really matter?
Depends on the way you look at things.
It does if you want to do things as fast and effective as possible.
While I had no problem getting my mesmer through EotN story and was faster than a lot of other people I know, the moment I took my para I was even faster than with my mesmer. And I have only a couple of hours experience on my para and more than 1000 on my mesmer.

When I help others, I help with my mesmer most of the time, only play other professions on request or when I see that the other profession would fit better in the team.
That's because most of those others don't play as efficient as possible in the first place. So I know how I can benefit the team with my mesmer.

But....
It's a game.
It's about fun.
Mesmer = fun (for me).

That's more important than running the most efficient profession

I'm sorry but I read the above as 'unless you agree with me and are at my made up stage 3 you're not a good player' which tbh is just wrong and out of touch with reality.

The little list above could be said of any profession of player, not just the mesmer profession. Don't attempt to put your jaded view of the profession as somehow seeing the light and being the ultimate state of truth. It's not, it's a point of view, an opinion with merits and demerits. Just the same as mine or any one else's view here.

There is an alternative to your summary of 3. That of people who are very skilled in all aspects of PvE play, but choose to play their chosen profession because they enjoy it in full knowledge of it's pro's and cons and in some cases because of it.

The thinning of the game as a whole(and therefore of the mesmer profession) has very little to do with PvE effectiveness, it's more to do with people having less to do, not liking the grind or there being other games that offer what they want.

Because I was sat in uni, extremely stressed out when I wrote it. Forgive me if my mind wasnt fully on the job.

lame excuse -_-