Why are there virtually no mesmers ingame?

You mean the few AOE's they have?

Things like Backfire/Empathy that make enemys go down faster?

I generally take a mesmer to pve, saved my ass a few times. >.> Im just speaking in general pve terms

backfire and empathy arent aoe as they only effect one target....

i see a lot in pvp, in arenas, but they still suck -.-

During the Halloween event, A friend of mine caught a conversation in Nolani Acadamy where people were saying that Mesmers couldn't get GMC titles. (they were corrected!) That's an example of the typical ignorance the general GW PvE community has towards Mesmers. The cause of this is the "Mesmers suck in PvE" garbage that has gotten spewed out over the past couple years on forums like this one.

It's nice to see that this thread, aside from the occasional silly remark about SS > Empathy (well, duh! SS is the elite form of Empathy! They had to give it to Necros way back in the beginning because without it, Necros would have only had 14 elites & Mesmers would have had 16) to defend the anti-Mesmer position, has actually had some decent and somewhat valid points to it.

I think that one place that Mesmers excell over most professions is multiple target attacking (I'm not talking about AoE here and Curse Necros may [IDK] do as well). During the initial engagement of a battle, I can get 3 enemies doing damage to themselves rather quickly (echo + Backfire and/or Empathy -depending on mob make-up) and partially shut down a fouth with a couple of well-timed interrupts (usually an Ele or necro, since many of their skills take time to cast) on top of that, I can get a nice little AoE spike off, too. (Cry of pain!) I use this generic bar when out and about in the usual areas. I can adjust it a bit for special circumstances:

[skill]Echo[/skill][skill]Backfire[/skill][skill]Empathy[/skill][skill]Cry of pain[/skill][skill]Energy Tap[/skill][skill]Power Drain[/skill][skill]Leech Signet[/skill]+ whatever.
It's a little bit power hungry, but I usually have Eve along for a battery. This build works very, very well against Margonites using LB gaze and a reasonable LB rank. The key is to know your enemy and the best way to use the skills against them as a group.

Notice I have them on another line? Im not calling them AoE

To rephrase it since you read it wrong

The Few Aoe they have? OR Things like Backfire and Empathy?



Also Mesmers are great support casters if you want to stray from their original role

Me/E.

the discussion is their lack of anything useful in PVE...PVP is a different story (they own)

well to me they are big squishy balls, in pvp and pve, but if u got skillzez, thats another story

Guild Wars is primarily designed as a PvP game, with a PvE element tacked onto it.
Mesmers seem designed for PvP and have been kinda reworked in ways to fit into PvE just enough to get by.
They can do really well if a very specific build is used for the area, but it's easier to just go with other professions using their generic builds that work great in most PvE areas.

What is a mesmas?

I has a rangar and a derfish.

I seriously hope no one who has posted in this thread is a stand-up comedian.

I was about to make a Mesmer before I began my GW hatred...but I saw no point. Who would accept them end-game?

I'd say your guild... but... O SHI.

Why don't you see any Mesmer in-game? Maybe it's because we are leveling our Warriors and Ele's up. :X

Plus my Necro is too much fun to pass up. xD

Non-elitists? You know, the people who aren't caught up in thinking there is only one way to do everything. Just a thought...

idk where teh op has been playin... but i see mesmers everywhere in pve country... like srsly... eye check maybe bud?

idk why people think mesmers are a pvp-only class tho, i find my mesmer dude exceptionally useful in pve and alot of fun. sure i usually go straight out damage with a few interrupts, and fast cast ele is always fun [2 sec cast meteor shower ftw]...

and, the armor in gw:en is just so very delicious :3

i see plenty around, i play mine incessently, generally does well in all areas, and plays some spects of pve better due to quicker casting

however in the end areas they like some others tend to be left out so i suppose more lay the trinity and other classes that replace them easily

mesmer is in a class of its own really

What is a "mesmas"?

These days I tend not to form PUGs so often anymore. I rather like to play with guildies instead or, do some charity and have some fun and go join a random PUG or help some random person with something.

IF, however, I was forming a PUG, I'd be looking to take a mesmer. Always. Just too useful. Maybe wouldnt hold a party up to wait for one, but certainly wouldnt be turning one down. Difficult for me to understand someone not wishing to take one honestly. Have to agree that its a common mindset though.

yeah i played a bar very close to that with my mesmer while also leveling her up on the way to legendary survivor. finished tyria, got past the desolation and to eternal grove and gyala hatchery using my version of that bar with ease. me and my trusty hero/henchies had a blast. once i got Gwen the 2 of us had a blast. 2 mesmers, one Dom and one Illusion, no stinkin Ele's or curses necro to screw up agro with AoE spells. its fun spreading empathy or backfire and watching the enemy just sit there killing themselfs without running away.

I think monks (assuming this is your primary) have a better appreciation for what mesmers do in PvE than any other class - probably because a good mesmer makes the monk's job easier. I'm referring to a balanced build here, not the Ursan or para-rampaging teams that slash their way through PvE. Some people prefer to play the game with finesse.

Can I have the code for that skill bar please? thanks

mesmas mesmas mesmas mesmas!

comedy gold right here folks!

Kook and I often run our mesmers together in groups, running simmilar bars - this is my general one for comparison:
[skill]Echo[/skill] [skill]Empathy[/skill] [skill]Pain Inverter[/skill] [skill]Backfire[/skill] [skill]Cry Of Pain[/skill] [skill]Chaos Storm[/skill]then I take either [skill]Energy Burn[/skill] or [skill]Signet of Disruption[/skill] and a res of some kind. Before pain inverter was arround I would use[skill]Cry of Frustration[/skill] as a 2nd interrupt (sometimes I still change out for that - depending on make up of group Im in)

We seem to be able to tear up groups fast. Its a lot of fun, and when we both run in the group we seem to get through things a lot faster than without mesmers.

Ok, I was going to quote and reply to some things, but this thread is too huge so I'll just lay out ground points for people. I'll include occasional quotes I read.

1) Rangers are better interrupters than Mesmers. This is for two major reasons, which I shall explain since people seem to not know.

Firstly, Ranger interrupts are cheaper and more spammable. This allows the ranger to predict casts and fire off more arrows trying to catch things that a Mesmer would have to play differently to get - because a Mesmer would be harder pressed to support their entire bar if they spammed interrupts. Flight time and all is negligible as the ranger can just walk near the target, and should be catching 1s and above easily with a recurve bow anyway. You can't spam or even rapidly use Mesmer interrupts without eating up large parts of your bar for multiple copies and management which screws you over when doing everything else.

Secondly, the nature of Mesmer interrupts. Mesmer interrupt are slower and more expensive because they serve a specific role. This is to interrupt a key skill and also use the secondary effect to force an opening or cause some other effect - such as Power Leaking an Aegis, or Power Draining energy back to the Mesmer. Creating opportunities is irrelevant in PvE because you aren't wrestling with a foe like in PvP, you're just killing it. They don't adapt, so you just roll through. It's easier to just lauch a volley of basic interrupts on a target and go through them.

That's great, too bad there aren't really any intelligent opposing defenses that need to be picked apart in PvE; that can't already be countered by punching them in the face.

Also to note : Rangers have Daze and/or heavy AoE from Barrage. This makes them more effective (unless you take an Illusion Mesmer... heh) and more damaging.

2) Mesmers versus Necromancers in terms of Hex shutdown/damage

I don't even get why this is a discussion.

That's fine, except a necromancer with SS and reckless has them useless enough, when you take into account other passive defense of other members of your team.

Spiteful Spirit necros are one of the strongest templates in PvE (especially Hard Mode) because they provide constant DPS and strong anti-melee defense at the same time. One or even two SS (or morE) necros basically ensures solid DPS as well as complete shutdown of Melee enemies. A Mesmer can handle the damage part, to an extent (although the comparable cost/recharge of SS to Empathy/Backfire speaks for itself), but has no real mass shutdown to the extent of AoE hex/condition application such as Reckless Haste/Enfeebling. Ineptitude isn't worth the space on your bar if you get hit with a group of Melee mobs - neither are the rest of your Illusion skills, when with a few Curse casts you could have heavy damage as well as defense.

SS necros, for their offensive/defensive role, are vastly superior to Mesmers in every part of PvE that involves melee shutdown and hexing. And if you wanted something for a different role, you'd be better with a pure class for it.

3) AoE pressure and damage is another major issue.

Basically, the Mesmer has one skill in this field that matters, Shatter Hex.

Every other profession has more skills than this, some that are better skills and not conditional (Rodgort's Invocation), and the ability to do something else useful with the rest of its bar. Like bring another damage skill, or bring a defense skill.



Finally;

Just because you work, doesn't mean you're good at it. I'd much rather have an equally experienced player on another class.

The trinity isn't even that effective. I wrote another wall of text explaining why. However, the Mesmer is not any more effective in a balanced PvE group simply because the slight effects they deal on the enemy are practically negligible when taking into account the overlapping abilities of all the other characters and classes.

Mesmers have the ability to practically reduce the intelligence of an opposing group by disrupting their play to a lower level and restricting their ability to adapt. However, as mobs are already mindless, there is nothing more for them to do but stand out of the way of things that are good at smashing the opposition.

Avarre's posts regarding the mesmer are well worth the read - all of them.


I think the number one reason why to play a mesmer in PvE is simply: fun. They are perhaps the most difficult class to play, one of the most difficult to master, and the experience alone is well worth it. However, once you get the hang of one, you'll find that they are probably the most fun class out of all of them. Followed closely by the Ranger

Why do you want one on your team? Why not? Sure, the team will likely be less effecetive overall, depending on your options at the time, but GW doesn't have to be a race all the time. Otherwise, everyone would just play a necro and be done with it.

LOL. Cry of Pain = 106 ARMOR IGNORING dmg IN THE AREA. Thank you, please don't come again.


Mesmers are insanely powerful in PvE thanks to the PvE skills and Signet of Illusions. Anyone who tells you differently needs to stop frequenting pvxwiki for Mesmer builds and PM me. Thanks. Master a Mesmer, then talk. This thread is nothing but a collection of people that either know how to use a mesmer (and are the minority) or have no idea how to use a mesmer and actually believe Chaos Storm is a good skill, as well as backfire and empathy in PvE. Lawl.

It's hard to take you seriously when you throw out things like this:
You are not going to convince people that mesmer are godly if the statements you are backing that up are completely and utterly false.
It just shows you are in it over your head - and you are talking about things you don't understand.



Off-topic
Bryant Again - WE WANT THE SPY BACK!111!!11!!1!

I had to quote your example, as it perfectly shows what I and many here are saying. Ineptitude+epidemic is just subpar to an Air ele with Blinding Surge (+ epidemic if you want). Blinding surge recharge faster, is conditionnally AoE, and you can fill the rest of your skillbar big damage skills. You could even take another elite and use Bliding flash. I find Ineptitude even subpar to Earth Eles with wards web and eruption and Unsteady ground, for PVE. AoE is so powerful because of dumb AI that doesn't know anything about positionning.
Secondly, you talk about shutting down ennemy monks and preventing a rez. Things is that monk mobs are rare. Very rare. Second thing is that monk mobs barely take cond removal. Third is that Mobs just don't rez, excepted in few areas. You see, everything that is key to winning in PvP, stopping rez, shutting down monks, interrupting key skills, is completely and utterly irrelevant for PVE. What you need in PVE is to bash harder than they bash you. It's sad, it's bad, but it's reality.

You know, you flame me at every chance you get.

False? Find me an assassin that outclasses a Mesmer in PvE if the player who is playing the Mesmer understand how to use the class. The Mesmer is severely underrated, and the holy trinity is just terrible. A team with 2 SOI CoP mesmers can rip through HM like a hot knife through butter. Armor ignoring damage is just that, ARMOR IGNORING. And when monsters have 200AL, that goes a lot further then SF on an ele doing a "vicious" 34 damage.

So please, before you flame me or my statement, at least back up what you are saying.

Can an ele hit a HM ranger/warrior/paragon/dervish/assassin boss for more then 90? No, they can't. Can a Mesmer hit that same boss for over 100? Certainly can, and they do it with ease. Clear FoW HM sometime with a CoP+SOI mesmer, see how smoothly it goes. Mesmers can remove hexes with Shatter Hex while dishing out nasty AoE damage, they can mass interrupt, they can shut down, and now with the new PvE skills, they can throw out massive AoE damage, just short of ear shot range. Please... tell me how that isn't amazing in PvE?

I'm wondering Avarre, why did you not include Cry of Pain here? Because I think it's the hardest hitting AoE the mesmer has. Or did you not include it because you don't need a high investment in a mesmer line (anyone can go mes secondary and bring a mes-hex that lasts for 5 seconds to get the AoE).

Just curious mind you, no disagreement with the rest of the wall(s) of text.

I wonder if it is time yet to cite Ensign's sig.

Cry of Pain is a PVE skill every caster can use. It has a long recharge. It is weak, because it deals a lot of damage one time then you have to wait for it. It is linked to sunspear rank, the easiest title to max (so CoP + SoI my bad.)

Paragons and sins bring a lot more to table than just damage. Additionally, sins moebius DPS completely outperform Mesmer DPS. Mesmer can hit for more than 90 in HM. Okay. And then? That's not DPS. They can do that once then they wait. Sins Moebius apply armor-ignoring damage every second they are striking. With Critical agility they are simply infamous.

Again, just understand that mesmers are cool, fun, and can be a very good asset to a team. But they are simply not necessary to a team, and can be outperformed for every of their potential roles by other professions due to stupid mobs that are dying so fast, not healing, not rezzing, etc..

Because Ensign is the END ALL BE ALL OF GUILD WARS RIGHT?

Why don't we ask Leeloof.... oh... dear me...

Why don't we ask other infamous Guild Wars players? Please, don't cite Ensign as backup for anything, be it positive or negative. He is just another veteran player who understands the dynamics of the game very very well. There are others like him, let me remind you.

Avarre didn't include Cry of Pain because that skill coupled with Signet of Illusions makes the Mesmer amazing in PvE, thus Avarre's entire argument would be voided. People don't include something that hurts their argument, or in this case, nullifies it.


How many r10 Sunspears are honestly running around? It is a TINY population. Because of all the lovely new items for boosting attribute points, a Mesmer with 18 illusion magic (SOI + CoP) can dish out enormous damage. You echo CoP btw, allowing a chain usage. Nearly 400 damage in a short blast, and CoP's recharge is rather short, I have no idea what you are talking about. 60 second meteor shower vs... oh... 15 seconds... 4 uses before the echoed version disappears. If the mob isn't dead by then, something is wrong. Perhaps your "nukers" suck?

Besides the point that PvE is retarded beyond all reason, Mesmer can rip through PvE like butter. We mesmers already an easy time ripping apart every other class in PvP (in any form, and any conceivable build), so why should silly PvE be more challenging? Lol... pathetic.

I am not saying Mesmers replace elementalists, but they augment a group very well. Replace one of your 3 nukers with a CoP+SOI+Ether Nightmare Mesmer, things die faster.

Skill bar is as follows:
Signet of Illusions
Cry of Pain
Arcane Echo
Ether Nightmare
Shatter Hex
Auspicious Incantation
25 energy spell that assists party (used to be CN, but that got nerfed) Balthazar's Aura works beautifully here, as it matches AI's recharge, and deals very decent AoE damage, thus adding to Mesmer AoE effectiveness in Lol..pve... lol
Rez chant, rebirth, w/e. You can also substitute in another mesmer hex, such as Shrinking Armor/Images of Remorse (for Cry of Pain)

This is why.

If I wanted, I could max Sunspear and bring it on any character. People don't, however, and this is because 100 damage every 15 seconds is not spectacular - otherwise you'd see eles bringing Wastrels/Cry of Pain. Generic attribute skills cannot be considered a class strength - most of them in practice are run on other classes as utility (Empathic Removal, Martyr, Expel Hexes, Mirror of Disenchantment).

A warrior can output that much armor-ignoring damage in 3 seconds with FGJ and Dragon slash, and while it is on a single target (which is more useful in parts of DoA if you don't want to mass-trigger enraged), they can also provide partywide support with shouts at the same time.

Sure, you can basically build your entire bar to fuel Cry of Pain. Then you end up with 1 good skill and a bar of useless stuff. You could split that one character's damage onto your 5 other offensive characters easily, and bring something versatile - allowing your other characters to bring even more offense. This is explained in my second linked essay; by dropping redundant skills and raising partywide defense, you can bring more solid offensive characters. A Mesmer, on the other hand, adds practically nothing beyond some direct damage that the rest of your party can bring too. Even when Spiritual Pain was in full use, often echoed multiple times, it didn't make Mesmers a strong class in PvE.

Yeah, you can use them to SoI-power titletrack PvE skills from GWEN, but then you're not even playing a Mesmer anymore, and have only proved the class itself is less effective than generic PvE skills any class can use.

I apologize if my comments come of as flames.
There is no excuse for that.

Back on topic - with a few notes:
1. An ele can hit a HM baddy for more the 90 damage.
And the ele can also do it with the same ease then the mesmer.
2. How about if the assassin player ALSO knows how to play the class? Can we say with absolute certainty that the mesmer will always outclass it?
Having not played the assassin under optimal conditions (which basically means a party build that would strengthen the assassin's potential) - I seriously can not give you an answer to that.
3. The trinity is better then ever.
It's just that ... we aren't talking about the old one anymore.
The trinity has evolved - and it's actually only the bad players that are clinging to the old one OR using it as an example of what the norm in GW is.
And this is where your lack of understanding for the game shows - because you are comparing the mesmer to an ele and based on that comparison you conclude that the mesmer is godly.

No, I try and not use Ursanway for anything, because it is entirely too mindless. Again, you flame me, saying I don't understand the game. Frankly, your wrong, and don't understand me. Mesmers are an unbelievable class, and with their PvE only skills, they finally can shine in PvE. But, the stereotype that they are only good in PvP has always been and still is extremely strong. So, they don't shine as brightly as they should.

The "Holy Trinity" has changed, but so have Mesmers. I am comparing current Mesmers with current PvE meta builds as I see them. However, I have been a bit busy devising a lovely new HA build as well as some TA goodies, so PvE is...2nd seat, short bus, w/e. PvE has never been important, and it never will be. THe only good news is, Mesmers are not very effective in it, which is plus for all of us Mesmer fans. The good groups bring a Mesmer to augment and increase the spike down potential of their group. All mesmer groups is a bit silly, but is a fun side thing to try. While Mesmers may never totally outclass a Warrior in DPS ability, or a Ranger in Raw interrupt potential, or an ele in continuous Condition/Damage ratios, they do have a defined spot in PvE now. They are powerful, so stop downplaying them, this isn't Pre Nightfall days anymore.

The point was, you should'nt try and compare the mesmer profession to the same way as say an ele plays. Ineptitiude still hits harder and blinds for longer. As stated in my last post, mesmers are not about bashing, but about allowing the 'bashing' professions to 'bash' more effectivley.

This thread is kinda pointless. Anet are clearly focussed on GW2 leaving GW1 with a skeleton crew and threads like this have been appearing since day one and full of people stating the same arguments over and over again. Time for a new tune. How about how people have made this supposedly inferior class succeed(a win is a win after all) in any and all aspects of the game?

Thank you! +10 points for Shana! She gets it, why can't the rest of you? The Mesmer is shining in all areas of the game. Try playing one in PvE, they are fun, and most of all , effective. Mesmers make the game easier.

Bring a good mesmer in your next pug, you won't be sorry. Don't believe me, I am available to show you.

PM me if you want to "hire" a great mesmer. I am sure Shana could show the same. My IGN Mesmer= Countess Corvinia.

I am honestly more than a little amused at the insinuation that Avarre doesn't know what he/she is talking about wrt mesmers. Online fame can be so fleeting!

But don't let anyone stop you from proving the awesomeness of mesmas by force of repetition ad nauseam. If it works for Fox News, etc.

I find it funny you attempted to point to Ensign. This just proves /epicfail.

I am also amused you assume I don't know what I am talking about... cough... 10 meta builds for Mesmer created... cough. Moving on.

Oh, repetition? SOlo Glint, then we can talk, okies? Bai now.

I fail to see how blinding a single target helps damage classes kill better. Damage classes have space on their bar for enough passive defense that they do not care. Even in this role, Necromancers serve better.

Perhaps you meant generally?

How many groups of mobs are there in the game that require Mesmer-specific shutdown?

Heavy damage bosses? My shouts and having a clue with prot reduce the damage, and if I had a ranger I just lock daze on them with either BHA (and then stick on them for total disruption, something a Mesmer cannot achieve with more expensive and slower interrupts) or Conc shot (and then proceed to splinterbarrage while midline casters just wand the boss). Meanwhile, they're dead because of all the heavy DPS.

Heavy defensive bosses? See above for a start. Furthermore, very few bosses can withstand a fully-offensive group's pressure. Willa the Unpleasant was hard only because you took a bunch of henchmen with terrible builds and couldn't stop their one healing skill, Orison, from being cast over and over. Orison, even there, will not outheal multiple heavy DPS characters (expecially as an enchant rip can be brought by anyone, such as Lyssa's Balance).

Mob groups pretty much follow the above. Mesmers are strong at creating opportunities, but you don't need to do that in PvE. You just kill the enemy, and dropping a DPS/support class isn't worth picking up some spike damage/shutdown if you're going for maximum efficiency. If you can't rip through a 2-monk group in PvE, there are other problems in your build setup that you can address, such as the lack of characters that deal continual DPS, or having terrible builds on them.