Why are there virtually no mesmers ingame?

Spoil Victor, which I expect is what the person you're quoting is referring to as well. Pesky overlapping abbreviations...

For the record, ranger does better interrupting than mesmer. The mesmer might have more faster/accurate interruption so their interrupt relies on reflex. While ranger has slower interruption but real rangers (not barrage nublets) do their interrupt by prediction and time calculation. This is because ranger interrupts are more spammable and almost cost nothing thanks to expertise. For PvE, BHA is the only interrupt anyone ever need with everyone attacking the same target (even better with minions) it means useless caster bosses.

Armor ignoring damage on mesmer? I mean seriously the majority of mesmer skills are highly conditional. Remove hex does this damage, remove enchanment does that damage, etc. Why bother if armor ignoring damage can also be done by necros without being conditional like SS.

1: Yes. It's also cheaper, recharges faster, and is nonelite. SS only shines in groups of 3 or more with a tank to hold them in place.

2: Really? Do you know the attack speed of melee enemies in HM? And you know how much empathy does per hit? And you realize that empathy is fire-and-forget, and can be put on multiple targets?

3: BHA, another elite. What if the arrow misses? I still think mesmer shutdown is more reliable.

All 3 of these things can be done by a mesmer on one skill bar. Believe it or not.

Mesmers are the toughest class to play. To be an effective Mesmer, you really need to consider the area you will be playing in. Is it filled with Forest Minotaurs or Jade Scarabs? Gaile once said that some character classes are built more for PvP and others are better for PvE. And some Mesmer spells are great a low levels while others are only good at the high levels.

Yes it is. Actually what I like about fast casting in pve is mantra of recovery, which (even after the nerf) is a huge increase in the number of spells per minute you can cast. Provided you manage your energy.

All you've really said is that you think ranger is better than mesmer because you know how to play ranger better than you do mesmer.

That's fairly subjective.

So does mesmer have better elite than SS or BHA in pve perspective?

Nope my favourite classes are both ranger and mesmer. I primarily use ranger on both pve and pvp but mesmer only in pvp.

Seriously, I will be harsh, but stop saying BS. Rangers need only one skill to interrupt: Broad head arrow. You want mass interrupt? Broad head arrow + epidemic + volley or pals' AoE. BHA outperform completely, I said COMPLETELY, mesmer's interrupts in PVE, by far. EDIT for Darkdreamer (since you're not understanding): Daze is never removed, mobs never strafe to avoid the arrow, it can be spread, and it ownz increased fast cast in HM.

Unbacked generalities. Rangers will deal more AoE than mesmers thanks to volley-Splinter weapon, will deal more damage overall, can spread more degen through conditions, can interrupt better than a mesmer through BHA and daze. And I didn't mention traps and odd builds like touchs to own particular mobs.


I give up. You'll have to back your claims up. I have a PVE mesmer you know? And the fact is that it doesn't deals as much damage as a my Dlasher, doesn't protect as much as my Dslasher or my paragon or my monk, does not shutdown like my BHA ranger, etc... When mobs are so silly they don't know how to remove daze (when they have daze removal, something 5% of monk mobs might have), there is no need to bring an interrupt mesmer. When I cast Backfire on a caster mob, of course I deal damage (and yet if the mob decides to cast and not to wand), but I don't shutdown. When I put daze on a mob caster, of course I deal damage, but in addition, I shutdown. Don't know what to say more. E-denial is completely ineffective in PVE and especially HM, interrupts is hasardous in HM since cast times are so fast, and mesmer's shutdown is too often one-strike shutdown (like Shame). Even their enchant removal is subpar to necro's one when talking PVE, who can remove bunchs of enchants like mad, powered by mob's death energy engine.
I would really like something done about the mesmer, but that is the PVE mob design which is the issue, with infinite energy, unsynergised builds so they don't remove hexes or conditions (especially daze or blind, that you can spread-and-forget), and have no real problematic enchants/key spell/skill to shutdown.

SS can be very useful in groups of less than three that can do more than empathy ever could. For instance SS > caster groups. Empathy gives them a purple arrow....
Or you realize that SS on a necro can outdamage empathy when throwing it on multiple targets because the damage is AoE damage....
Stop using longbow/flatbows for a BHA ranger... Shortbows r imba for this.
Really? When did mesmers get an easy, reliable daze skill....

Good point, fast casting does have some very nice linked skills.

Meh. Trying to convince people mesmers aren't an optimal class for PvE is like trying to convince Xbox fanboys that Halo 3 isn't the best game ever made. Might as well quit while you're ahead.

[skill]Signet Of Illusions[/skill] is the Most powerful PVE skill in the game. What other skill lets you be any caster class in the game as much as this does. Not to mention the ability to spam maxed PVE only skills.

Mesmers, with the right build and a skillful person playing them are a blessing to PvE. I'll argue with anyone that a mesmer can be worth their weight in gold if they are any decent at playign the class and know how to make a useful skillbar.
a lot more than soul reaping has.... or energy storage for that matter...

Well, everything has more linked skills than SR, which is as it should be.

Of course, I'm not saying they're bad by any stretch of the imagination. Just saying their roles are pretty limited, in that other classes perform most of the tasks you want done in PvE more efficiently.

I've said before - the classes I bring for HM are necros *and* mesmers. Shutdown and damage.

I don't use eles, except for warders, since I've found their damage to be lacking.

I prefer to use a well rounded build, which includes shutdown, along with all other roles. That includes mesmers.

But I do. This is why two mesmers. One has expel or recover, other has powerblock, depending on area, I might use a different elite.

SS stacks with empathy, either intentionally, or due to confusion. Unlike 4 SF eles, which complement each other, necros hurt from overlapping skills.

Diversion is also very helpful to have around. Especially for dungeons. Mistrust reduces party damage.


To each their own. Majority of players in GW also claims that you need obsidian flesh tank, SF nukers and a bonder for hard areas. I play with team builds. There, no class is evaluated independently, and no skill is used on its own. And for HM, I've found mesmers a valuable addition in the synergetic team builds that I use.

Yes, but you only play solo in pre-searing pre-searing.

Everywhere else, it comes to team build. Some team structures make good use of mesmers. Others don't. Arguing about class effectiveness without considering the team and area they are used in is just like arguing that MM is worst class ever since it sucks in Ring of Fire.

"One build to vanquish them all" will be sub-par for all areas. The most effective build will be the one tailored for the area you're in. In many, such build can include mesmers.

Lifeweaver have Divert Hexes, Krait Devouss have Cure Hex. That's about it. GW:EN is full of enemies with physical hate.

I am having a very, very, very hard time believing that. Skills, numbers, something to back up this claim? Everything I know a mesmer is capable of doing, I know of another profession that can do the job much better. Mesmer's don't have AoE weakness, capable of inflicting daze, doing more single target damage than a warrior (unless maybe that warrior is heavily shut down), blowing up mobs with AoE, providing mass party buffs, or keeping the party alive.

When I do have a mesmer, it's usually stripping enchantments or cleaning hexes so the physicals can kill stuff. But really I can get by without it.

Destroyers of thoughts have expel hexes. There might an odd removal here and there.

Definitely.

My anti-melee lineup consists of SS, IP, enfeebling blood, ward against KD and melee, Aegis, After this is up, I ignore melee, since it's harmless. This is less than two skill bars.

Then comes the problem of casters.

NPC healers are annoying. Some can be dazed, there's also shivers, diversion, backfire (if no hex removal, AI is stupid enough to lose plenty of health), knockdowns, enchant removal, interrupts, whatever works best for given area. Again, those are spread out between several party members.

But for everything I avoid strong slowdown tactics. I don't use snares - they keep melee from attacking. I don't use MS or much of AoE. Scattered mobs aren't attacking and hurting themselves.

My general approach is always to let mobs attack as much and as often as possible, but do as little damage as possible. But for the few that can really hurt entire party, I bring shutdown, spread between several party members, often including mesmers.

This is patent nonsense. BHA is slower than a regular arrow. Now you're talking 1/2 the speed of an attack that was already slower than the mesmer. Plus, you're just interrupting randomly. And you're relying on a skill that requires casters to be all bunched up to work meaningfully. What do you do if they aren't bunched together, kite them around until they are?

Sorry, that's a terrible retort. The mesmer's interrupts are still much faster. If you know what you're doing, you don't need to just fire off interrupts all over the place to be effective which leaves the mesmer open to spread all sorts of other pain.

Just because it WORKS doesn't mean it's BETTER. A mesmer that's not just wildly spamming things can intelligently pick apart an entire enemy team and spread enough pain to allow a group to roll right through just about anything without too much sweat.

Since mesmers arent very good at doing AoE damage...

[quote]can spread more degen through conditions[/qutoe]
I think there are some necros and sins out there with certain secondaries which may like to have a word with you....

I know what to say. Most of what you posted there suggests to me that you just don't understand how to manage hexes, otherwise you wouldn't be confused about the mesmer's ability to do damage while keeping enemy casters at bay.

Like I said above: your build may WORK, but that certainly doesn't mean it's BETTER. You're not really doing anything except keeping the casters at bay. The mesmer can do that AND spread meaningful problems out through the rest of the group at the same time. A properly placed mesmer who knows what he's doing can at times shut a whole group down to the point that you're practically wailing away at helpless dummies.

BHA isn't exactly an interrupt, though: it's a pre-emptive ranged attack that causes dazed, making EVERYTHING an interrupt from thence onward.

And with 12 marksmanship, it recharges faster than the dazed expires, allowing indefinite caster shutdown without ever needing to do a 'proper' interrupt.

So it should really only be compared to other skills that inflict dazed, rather than other interrupts.

dazed only works if the caster is under constant attack from more than one player...otherwise the caster can cast anything it wants in between hits if it can avoid or fast cast. 1/4 second skills are very hard to interrupt even with daze...you need a preemptive strike for that like blackout, migraine or shame/guilt.

Combine the mesmer PvE skills Ether Nightmare and Cry of Pain for a nice AoE damage and degen effect and maybe Necrosis or Ebon Battle standard of Honor for a party-wide damage-boost. I'm sure everyone knows the potential of PvE skills - sure, any class can use 'em, but how many of us have maxed allegiance titles of any kind? With Sig of Illusions you can max the efficiency, and no other class than a mesmer can fully utilize SoI:s power.

Now, I reckon mesmers aren't the most powerful class in pure DPS sense, but I've been using SoI as I've gone along GW:EN and it sure is fun to play.

Someone else said it best. An intelligent mesmer can really pick apart an opposing defense, through any number of means. The effects are mostly indirect but mesmers can prevent damage/key negative effects as well as provide significant offense. It's about doing things like interrupting that chilblains that is going to remove the team's aegis. It's about preventing enemy monks from casting so your party can kill quickly. And sometimes it's about spreading degen or spiking down an elementalist in seconds.

The same things that make mesmers good in pvp make them good in pve, but it takes effort (as well as experience and a little bit of skill). Most people (it seems) are content to roll through pve with spiteful spirit, meteor shower, a warrior and a monk, or now, 3 ursans and a monk. But despite all the debates about efficiency, I personally believe that monks are the only class which vastly outperform all the others at what they do (because of divine favor). I consider mesmers to be at least on par with other classes in a variety of roles, with the added bonus that they're fun to play.

I know I won't convince the naysayers, but I hope to convince the people who aren't sure, so that the useless mesmer stereotype will disappear. here's another tip: assassin's aren't worthless in pve either. A skilled assassin with the right build can be an asset, and can even provide party defense too with the right secondary. A lot of it comes down to the person behind the bar. There may be less margin for error with mesmers and assassins than with warriors and elementalists, but that doesn't mean one class is always better than another.

Mesmers are a unique class, they have a longer learning curve. And they have fewer AoE options than other jobs. So most people dont even try to play them.

Thats why there are so few.

But I have a Domination mez that is very fun to play with.

Mesmers have [skill]Hex Eater Vortex[/skill] and [skill]energy surge[/skill] and maybe [skill]shatter hex[/skill] that really fit into the pve mindset (2 of which are conditional) which is AOE damage owns. You don't need need shutdown in PvE except for the stray caster boss, in which you bring BHA.

Interrupts are ranger job...
[skill]Broad Head Arrow[/skill][skill]Screaming Shot[/skill][skill]Apply Poison[/skill]
But why we cant be friends...
[skill]Fevered Dreams[/skill][skill]Arcane Conundrum[/skill][skill]Accumulated Pain[/skill]

Advanced

[skill]Broad Head Arrow[/skill][skill]Screaming Shot[/skill][skill]Apply Poison[/skill] volley

[skill]Fevered Dreams[/skill][skill]Arcane Conundrum[/skill][skill]Accumulated Pain[/skill]Shrinking Armor[skill]Shatter Delusions[/skill]

You may indeed have been effective, but unfortunately the wider GW population doesn't consider them to be necessary to succeed in PvE.
And that's a valid point. I've only ever had a mesmer in my group once (Raisu Palace). Despite finishing the mission easily, I have finished the vast majority of all 4 games without one.

I'd say that there aren't a whole lot to begin with because the class description isn't as appealing, and perhaps a little less clear, as compared to others.

The look can also turn people off a bit.

Edit: Shanaeri, are you saying that Mesmers are much more better off because of the updates in GW:EN, because they exceed only in GW:EN areas, or other?

Thats a very simplistic view IMHO. Part of the art of playing mesmer is knowing within fractions of a second whether to interupt or to let the action go ahead. Often the difference between a good player and exceptional one is becuase the exceptional ones knows instinctivley when to do what action to what target, they know what skill does what and what mobs have what build, they can anticipate the next move and stop it without thinking. It's a whole different and equally valid way to play.

It's not just AoE casters that need to be shut down, warders, necros and some rits can wreck havoc if left alone.


I think maybe you are looking at the role of the mesmer in the wrong way. When people have asked me what does a mesmer *do* in a PvE team one of the analogies I use is that it is used to fill in the spaces left in the build synegy of the rest of the team. Think of music, typically one has the lyrics, melody and the bridge. Take one away and the whole things falls apart, and yet people focus mainly on the lyrics and the melody. Try listening to any song with no bridge. It gets the job done in a shorter time but is the less for it. The mesmer is the bridge.

Using your melee example above. A mesmer with ineptitude and epidemic blinds the front line hitting on the warrior, the necro casts SS and reckless on the now useless melee front line. In the mean time the mesmer is on the ele or monk stopping the blind being removed, preventing a res, removing enchants or simply shutting down the monks whole heal line. The net effect is that the mesmer has just relieved a whole lot of pressure on the team and although gone unnoticed is acting as 'the bridge' for the entire build. Now, most engagements are pretty short and brutal but non the less the effects are there. As i'm sure you know it's pressure that causes team wipes not spikes in damage. By removing some of that pressure the likelyhood of team wipe is reduced.

When played well, playing mesmer feels like one is dancing through the mobs, forcing them to play to the tune of the overall team build. It's in this space the mesmer excells. It's the subtlty of Mozart to the thrash metal of holy trinity PvE which is not a like for like comparision.

Both. Gwen mobs are some of the most well balanced in the game, and thus allows a mesmer to shine. They have opportunity to shine outside of Gwen, not only because of some of the new 'proper' skills, but by the way they can dovetail with(like em or love em) the new PvE skills

Because mesmers are baaed

Because they are out there in the instances OWNING!

So Mesmers could still use some work?

GW:EN is still a very small fraction of the PvE world. While yes it's awesome that Mesmers are able to do much better against them, there's still the other 80% of the GW universe that can go against them.

Saying "this class shines because of the PvE skills" is not really a good thing, because a profession should be able to excel just as well as any other profession without them.

I think mesmers are a great class and I often bring Gwen along, but I don't play my mesmer so much anymore. Usually it's because I can't always find a build that works well and I enjoy playing. I'm not great with interrupts for a number of reasons and I can't ever decide if I'd rather go illusion-degen or something like E-surge :\ and hex domination. Sometimes it's easier to just put 10-12 points into healing prayers and play a wannabe monk. I usually will consider it anyways because LoD is better than most of the mesmer elites IMO.

You do mean Bad Arse Right?

Please don't take half of what I wrote and use it out of context, re-read the rest of my post above and hopefully it'll show the full picture.

no... 12 chars

LOL @ OP.

Me/X with Cry of Pain + Signet of Illusions + Ether Nightmare = GG PvE. Mesmers can out damage an Ele if played correctly. Mesmers outclass Assassins, Paragons, and even Rits in PvE. Necros have even become less popular vs Mesmers, especially in HM because of the SOI buffs. GG.

Armor ignoring Chaos damage > Elemental Damage or Physical Damage. Throw Pain Inverter in for fun.

wishful thinking^

Mesmers have no AOE

Common fact PVE..Loves AOE.

DoT works good too!

AOE DOT is great

AOE DOT that does even more damage to a Single target is great

AOE DOT PBAOE is nice too!


Now which of these the mesmer have?

DOT?....you mean degen? Lame.

Fevered dream mesmers are fun tho.

You know very little about Mesmer skills then....