Drop Rates SoJ vs. SV (Image heavy!)

The Mountain

The Mountain

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jun 2006

Realm of the GWAMMs

Teh Academy [PhD]

W/

Umm, I've only farmed greens in Factions, but I know that I killed Sskai and Ghial many times, that they always held the skin of their green weapons, and that I did NOT always get the green drop. Sometimes I got swords and staffs that those two were certainly not wielding. And I'm not sure how the above argument adds to the OP's.

Sorry for not quoting...I can't from my home PC.

my2cent

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Feb 2007

so whens more evidence gonna be posted.

ricocheting

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Oct 2005

R/D

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Mountain
Umm, I've only farmed greens in Factions, but I know that I killed Sskai and Ghial many times, that they always held the skin of their green weapons, and that I did NOT always get the green drop. Sometimes I got swords and staffs that those two were certainly not wielding. And I'm not sure how the above argument adds to the OP's. they changed the way it works, but for about maybe first 2 months after factions came out, if you saw a boss like sskai holding their weapon, it was a MUCH MUCH higher drop rate (upwards toward 100%).

anyway, that argument (and there's others like the mob wielding a vamp weapon and you seeing lifestealing pop-up when you get hit) adds to the fact that loot is determined on instance/zone creation. it's not random when the mob is killed.


HOWEVER my main problem with this theory is the whole "zoning in at same time." if I had to guess, i would bet their random number generator is seeded with milliseconds or smaller increments. so you zone in at 6:30:16.003 and your friend zones in 6:30:16.005 -- to a human, thats exactly the same time, but thats 0.002 seconds difference to the system is plenty of time and the loot would be seeded with different numbers and you'd get two different sets of random results.

also, you'd expect ncsoft would take this type of thing into account. you don't just seed it with a timestamp. you also include a unique character ID, or account ID, or something else just to prevent exactly this type of thing from happening.

Yawgmoth

Yawgmoth

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Apr 2005

VERY interesting. I suspected something like a predetermined variable which determined the quality of the drops being generated upon the creation of an instance long long ago (soon after Factions release). Since then I've had loads of examples that confirmed the theory, both before and after the antifarm code changes were implemented. No evidence disproved this theory.

Now I have a couple questions to the OP:

Have you noticed if the very same drops dropped from exactly the same mobs/groups?

Were the gold/purple drops with the same mods exactly identical? I mean same req, mod values and inscriptions?

Have you checked the server's IPs on both players performing the test? It may be an important factor - I think that only the instances created on one physical server computer within a very short period of time (1 second?) may produce such effects. Different servers may have varying system clocks (so you cant sync) or other varying factors determining the pre-generation of items.

IxiRancid

Academy Page

Join Date: Aug 2005

W/E

We tried it here. 55 Necro SS + 55 Monk SoJ.
- place: Fahranur the first city HM
- We sit in the same office (yeah, we play non-worktime )
- We were on the same server, same town, got a screenshot
- we entered the same time

The results:
1st group of three Skales dropped 1 purple sword, 1 Half digested boots, gold.
We both got the same "type of drop" (1 purp, 1 white, gold), but they were not the same (I got purple Short Sword, Necro got purple Brute Sword), I got 103 gold, Necro 92 gold.
The next few groups were even more different, and after a few more groups (hitting the massive group just outside the city) we stopped shouting at eachother what dropped for us
In addition, Necro got a chest spawn with the massive group, I didn't. I got a gold Sephis Axe from Undead, Necro white stuff.

It didn't work for us, but we'll try again - non-worktime

TheLordOfBlah

TheLordOfBlah

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Jan 2006

California

None

Mo/N

Thats crazy shit..

Skinny Corpse

Skinny Corpse

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Mar 2007

Company of Corpses [CoC]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yawgmoth
VERY interesting. I suspected something like a predetermined variable which determined the quality of the drops being generated upon the creation of an instance long long ago (soon after Factions release). Since then I've had loads of examples that confirmed the theory, both before and after the antifarm code changes were implemented. No evidence disproved this theory.

Now I have a couple questions to the OP:

Have you noticed if the very same drops dropped from exactly the same mobs/groups?

Were the gold/purple drops with the same mods exactly identical? I mean same req, mod values and inscriptions?

Have you checked the server's IPs on both players performing the test? It may be an important factor - I think that only the instances created on one physical server computer within a very short period of time (1 second?) may produce such effects. Different servers may have varying system clocks (so you cant sync) or other varying factors determining the pre-generation of items. Who's/what's "OP"?

Anyhow, yesterday we we're on the phone for the entire run so we could
have a fast communication.. and yes, the drops came from the very same groups.
The mods were also identical, BUT.. now, to another interesting thing, all my items, including the blues and whites, were worth more at merchant.
Now, I'm "Favoured" and my brother is "Lucky"... could this have something to do with that?
I'm not saying either way here but it is the only difference between us I can think of.

Nightow

Nightow

Forge Runner

Join Date: Feb 2006

Kindred Order of Souls [KOS]

OP = Original Poster

P.S. Keep up the good work.

Skinny Corpse

Skinny Corpse

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Mar 2007

Company of Corpses [CoC]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightow
OP = Original Poster

P.S. Keep up the good work. ah, of course, thanks.

And will do!

Vexed

Vexed

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Dec 2006

Mo/

I'm pretty sure the Lucky title would not affect your merchant prices, but if you identify all weapons their value automatically increases by about 30-50g, and that includes white weapons. Maybe you ID'd everything and your brother didn't?

boarderx

boarderx

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Feb 2007

[PIG]

sry, i didnt read it all (i dont have time, im at work, lol) but it seems that the best way to test things like that is to just do it more times.

i believe you guys, ive been farming for sometime and i generally dont notice a difference on how they are killed. ive tested this out in UW, ive done farms where i only take on 1 group at a time and ive done farms where i get mass aggro. the out come is generally the same, it is only the time that is different.

some more test results would be nice. if you guys do that run regularly perhaps just jot down how many golds you got that run and how many total drops you got (IDing them would really matter for this kinda test). A larger test pool would help in figuring this out (or ask the anet ppl for a hand in this, lol). Anyway just a thought.

boarderx

boarderx

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Feb 2007

[PIG]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexed
I'm pretty sure the Lucky title would not affect your merchant prices, but if you identify all weapons their value automatically increases by about 30-50g, and that includes white weapons. Maybe you ID'd everything and your brother didn't? as far as total $ earned per run, that is random on how well they ID, i think the best way to figure it out is the number of drops instead of dollar amount (imo), since this is a post about how to figure out the loot scaling, drop quantity would matter more then a lucky bunch of IDs

Skinny Corpse

Skinny Corpse

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Mar 2007

Company of Corpses [CoC]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexed
I'm pretty sure the Lucky title would not affect your merchant prices, but if you identify all weapons their value automatically increases by about 30-50g, and that includes white weapons. Maybe you ID'd everything and your brother didn't?
We both made sure to ID everything before we made the drop for the last screenshot, just to see the similarities on
mods and so on, and that's when we noticed the difference in value on every of my items compared to his.
Now, this is the first time we noticed this so there's no way telling if there's a patterns or just random.
Further testing is surely needed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by boarderx
some more test results would be nice. if you guys do that run regularly perhaps just jot down how many golds you got that run and how many total drops you got (IDing them would really matter for this kinda test). A larger test pool would help in figuring this out (or ask the anet ppl for a hand in this, lol). Anyway just a thought. There will be more runs and results for sure, and hopefully runs with more
purple and gold drops to have even more to compare.
lol, yea Anet would probably happily assist in this research.

TSS

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Jan 2007

Retired from GW until GW2

A/P

the second run proved it for me.

Naral

Pre-Searing Cadet

Join Date: Aug 2007

Whr is this area ?? XD

manitoba1073

manitoba1073

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jan 2006

ManitobaShipyards Refit and Repair Station

(SFC)Star Fleet Command,(TDE)The Daggerfall elite,(SOoM)Secret order of Magi

Actually the best place to test it would be Min Cho's Estate on HM. Its a soloable mission and its very easy to sync it if you've ever synced anything else in GW before.

However the pictures show something else more than it shows that loot is predetermined when loading the instance and its something that goes back to the very beginning. The seed your chars are born with when made and that there 2 chars have similar seeds. Since they didnt have the exact same loots though very similar.

Oh BTW to the goon that thinks its impossible that the game can generate the loot when you kill something doesnt know how fast and how much a computer can do things.

Skinny Corpse

Skinny Corpse

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Mar 2007

Company of Corpses [CoC]

Quote:
Originally Posted by manitoba1073
Actually the best place to test it would be Min Cho's Estate on HM. Its a soloable mission and its very easy to sync it if you've ever synced anything else in GW before.

However the pictures show something else more than it shows that loot is predetermined when loading the instance and its something that goes back to the very beginning. The seed your chars are born with when made and that there 2 chars have similar seeds. Since they didnt have the exact same loots though very similar.

Oh BTW to the goon that thinks its impossible that the game can generate the loot when you kill something doesnt know how fast and how much a computer can do things. Oh, man you lost me there.
Could you possibly explain the seed-part a bit further? Sounds interesting
and something I wanna know more about, for sure.

ragnagard

ragnagard

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Jul 2007

In Spain, of course

Gamer Espa??ol[GE]

N/Mo

NOTE: this post is extra long and "highly" computer engineering filled, so read the "CODE" section with patience or skip it for a fast and simplier reading ^^

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skinny Corpse
Oh, man you lost me there.
Could you possibly explain the seed-part a bit further? Sounds interesting
and something I wanna know more about, for sure. I think that he's talking about computer engineering hehehe.
To generate a random number, you (human) can say "6!" without thinking, but a computer cant do that and just does a pseudorandom calculation starting from a initial value, called "seed". Normally, random calculations take the pc datetime or microprocessor ticks as this "seed" or initial value.

Applied to GW, (i think that) he means that when you create your char, a seed (well lets think that GW takes datetime as seed) is generated, for example 12122007050559 (december 12 2007, 05:05:59) and the other person creates the character at almost same time, like 12122007050601 (december 12 2007, 05:06:01). As you see, most digits of those values are the same, so their "seeds" will be almost the same, and calculations from those could be similar too, like multiply that for 10.

According to the things i know about comp. engineering, GW wont calculate the item dropped when you kill any enemy. Why? Lets put another example:

Imagine that ME, as an ele/a, wanna farm something and go to the vaettir tour farming. Imagine again that i am a "pro" and lure 1 big groups of... lets say 34 vaettirs. Imagine the calculation procces for any vaettir I kill... then multiply them for 34. And now, imagine this worldwide asking GW servers for the drop... too much chaos .

I think that things should be simplier and its "predefined" on a list and is from that list where GW took the droppable item before drop it.

---- my bet about GW calculation ----

## take a deep breath before reading ##

sorry about using programming language code
I think that it can be understood even with that hehehe.

Code:
// Entering zone

/* Each zone should have some arrays with things that could be
dropped like those, where any object has a weight, meaning its 
probability, from example 0.05 of 1 will be the elemental sword drop percentage */

goldenItems={elementalSword, platinumBroadSword,dragonScythe,...,colosalScimitar};
collectorItems={glacialStone,dinosaurBone,diessaChalice};
whiteItems={crap, crap, crap};
purpleItems={....};
dyes={....}

// Calculates the number of things that could be dropped 
Player.calculateDroppedItems(itemArray,zone.getNumberOfFoes(),zone.getTimesEntered());

// Calculation could be like:

/*

goldenItems = 200foes * GWUnknownFormuleOfDrop % 15timesEntered;
whiteItems = (200 foes - ObjectsThatAreGolden)* GWFormuleOfDrop % 15timesEntered ;
*/

// Gw stores the things that could be dropped, ie:

/*
goldenItems=3;
collectorItems=12;
.....
dyes=2;
totalItemsYouCanGet=goldenItems+.....+dyes;
*/

/*Then they activate a trigger when any creature dies
(just check if zone.getNumberOfFoes() goes down from the last check)
Lets think that you killed 5 foes
*/

for each foe in that 5{
/*
check itemsYouCanObtain, and if its 0, you get nothing

else just do a random number from 1 to N, 
being N the number of arrays i write above, 
for example 1, which will be golden items.

then, using the weighs, we calculate the drop from the list and... drop it

foes to end calculation -1;
goldenItems -1;
itemsYouCanObtain -1;
*/
}

/* the trigger will be activated anytime the game checks 
that number of foes has decreased
*/
What i mean in simple words? Just things are pre-calculated when you enter into a zone, no matter how much you kill, how much time, if done one-by-one/in group, etc. I think that this calculations are faster than having counters on what is killed and those things. And if you reenter the zone, you could see that GW doesnt charge it inmediatly hehehe. examples of my thoughs?

What happens if we go dual/triple/...? just any local instance calculate it "lucky-drop", transform it into a code and send it to the server, so GW could add together the group drops at "group list of droppable items and its quantity".

This could be an explaination to things that happens when you kill something in groups and GW just "semi-freezes" for the calculations(to me & my hardware at least). It could be "randomly" select, what to drop from the predefined list of items.

Hope this could be understood ^^

/salute all

PD: Yeah i forgot to explain how greens are dropped but... it will be the same. just check that currently killed foe was a boss hehe. Hope you get it

Skinny Corpse

Skinny Corpse

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Mar 2007

Company of Corpses [CoC]

Wow, thanks, ragnagard! Great explaination, I really appreciate it.

royal mercenary

royal mercenary

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Dec 2006

Glob Of Ectospasm [GoE]

Me/Rt

hmm
weird, but possiblee

royal mercenary

royal mercenary

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Dec 2006

Glob Of Ectospasm [GoE]

Me/Rt

still waiting for some more proof

ricocheting

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Oct 2005

R/D

Quote:
Originally Posted by ragnagard
Applied to GW, (i think that) he means that when you create your char, a seed (well lets think that GW takes datetime as seed) is generated, for example 12122007050559 (december 12 2007, 05:05:59) and the other person creates the character at almost same time, like 12122007050601 (december 12 2007, 05:06:01). yes, but the problem is i HIGHLY HIGHLY doubt it's seeded with a second timestamp. it's probably a millisecond or smaller increment its seeded with. which would mean to get the same loot you'd both have to zone in at the same one-one thousands (or smaller) of a second time period.

also, it would have to be a complete idiot programmer to ONLY seed with a timestamp. you seed with the timestamp in addition to a character ID or something additional exactly so you don't get this type of results the original poster is finding.

not saying I don't believe the OP, but someone totally unrelated to them needs to be able duplicate these results.

Skinny Corpse

Skinny Corpse

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Mar 2007

Company of Corpses [CoC]

Quote:
Originally Posted by royal mercenary
still waiting for some more proof It will come.. hopefullt I can convince my brother to try again sometime this weekend.

ragnagard

ragnagard

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Jul 2007

In Spain, of course

Gamer Espa??ol[GE]

N/Mo

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skinny Corpse
Wow, thanks, ragnagard! Great explaination, I really appreciate it.
/bow ty for asking hehehe. I enjoy makin a new "how to understand GW drop" theory every time I can.

Quote: Originally Posted by royal mercenary hmm
weird, but possiblee Even I found it weird... hehehe

Quote: Originally Posted by ricocheting
yes, but the problem is i HIGHLY HIGHLY doubt it's seeded with a second timestamp. it's probably a millisecond or smaller increment its seeded with. which would mean to get the same loot you'd both have to zone in at the same one-one thousands (or smaller) of a second time period.

also, it would have to be a complete idiot programmer to ONLY seed with a timestamp. you seed with the timestamp in addition to a character ID or something additional exactly so you don't get this type of results the original poster is finding. ¿Problem?
I Know, that but this text had only the purpose to explain how a simple seed works, not saying that will be the really seed that GW use.
And... i mean that every character will have its seed at his born and this (added with character ID or whatever) and that will be the seed that the pseudorandom formulas will use. I didnt ever think in creating more seeds when you enter into the zone. The "timesEntered" variable in my text will just adjust the drop with the times you enter in that zone.. that's all. No need to create more seeds... or I forget something.

You can see that this could be real as you ever (well, nearly 99%) get less drop than enemies killed ^^

Quote:
Originally Posted by ricocheting
not saying I don't believe the OP, but someone totally unrelated to them needs to be able duplicate these results. I am thinking about doing 5 simultaneous runs with my brother in LAN, to the vaettir zone and kill them with sliver armor and tenhai/c.wave to see what's better and who gets more drop or... if we got the same.
On saturday of course hehe

phawk

Pre-Searing Cadet

Join Date: Jan 2007

Quote:
Originally Posted by ricocheting
yes, but the problem is i HIGHLY HIGHLY doubt it's seeded with a second timestamp. it's probably a millisecond or smaller increment its seeded with. which would mean to get the same loot you'd both have to zone in at the same one-one thousands (or smaller) of a second time period.

also, it would have to be a complete idiot programmer to ONLY seed with a timestamp. you seed with the timestamp in addition to a character ID or something additional exactly so you don't get this type of results the original poster is finding.

not saying I don't believe the OP, but someone totally unrelated to them needs to be able duplicate these results. That sounds reasonable. It probably is a millisecond or smaller increment, thereby the deviations and in that case it also supports the "idiot programmer" theory.

I say SoJ vs SV: 1-1.

I don't know if it has been mentioned before but ALL mob groups on the whole map must be the same for both characters to have a chance of getting the same drops. Slightest difference in the mob group compositions and you will get two completely different results no matter how well you think you synced the zone-in.

Nemo the Capitalist

Nemo the Capitalist

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Aug 2006

Trust me you dont want to know my Chasms of Despair

Zaishen Brotherhood

N/Me

greatguide man now the whole comunity cna learn form ur trials i doubt u faked it and willing tobeleivve gg man made me a lil happier :P

kumiel

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Jun 2005

This looks pretty amazing the way it is... but more testing would have to be done to confirm whether it is true or not. A suggestion of mine would be to whoever is testing this out, if the drops are the same, post screenshots of the chat log showing [Monster] drops [Item] which your party reserves for [player] and cut/paste the screenshots to show the chat log for the entire run. or however it goes. If you can post something like this, there will be no way to deny the claim...

political necro

Pre-Searing Cadet

Join Date: Jul 2007

[CASH]

N/Me

i agree that this is interesting, so i decided to try it out..

results :

5 deadswords

all defense except 1 warding

this is of course after a couple of runs, but its still kinda strange

does that mean equipment mods vary by the area farmed?

Nemo the Capitalist

Nemo the Capitalist

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Aug 2006

Trust me you dont want to know my Chasms of Despair

Zaishen Brotherhood

N/Me

remember the good old days when dead swords were li,ke 100k 30 ectos......anmd farmers had a cap on it

my2cent

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Feb 2007

hes bs-ing unless more ss comes, more reliable info.

Abonai Laguna

Abonai Laguna

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jun 2006

Isle of the Dead [CoC] GH

Company Of Corpses [CoC]

E/

This is great stuff^^
Waiting for more

willypiggy

willypiggy

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Dec 2006

D/Mo

Amazing, this is very interesting stuff. If this is indeed true (Which I think it is) then we could being compiling a list of drops per run - per mob and if you enter and area only killing 5 foes would let you know what else you would get!

Skinny Corpse

Skinny Corpse

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Mar 2007

Company of Corpses [CoC]

Quote:
Originally Posted by my2cent
hes bs-ing unless more ss comes, more reliable info. What further info would you want to see that is more reliable?
There will be results from more runs, but right now we're busy
getting all the goodies from the Bonus Mission Pack

Silly Warrior

Silly Warrior

Hold it!

Join Date: Jul 2006

In your local courthouse.

The Arctic Marauders [TAM] (elite PvE, PM)

I'm hesitant to close or keep this open for two reasons.

1.I'm not sure that Skinny is lying...or telling the truth. Considering his post count I don't know what to say.
2. If what he is saying is true, then everything we know about drop rates is wrong, which makes it seem like hes lying.
-----------------------------------------
I will give you until this time next week to come up with MORE evidence to support your claim, otherwise I will close this thread for simply lying to the community.

Thanks!

Karel

Academy Page

Join Date: Jul 2007

[DoE] Dutchmen Of Emania

N/Me

I have Solo'd on my neco for over 800 hours, and done lots of Fahranur runs.
When I go SS, I get 0-1 goldie, +-1 dye, a necro tome and merchant crap.
When I go SV, I get 2-3 goldie, +-1 dye, most of the times an elite tome and also merchant crap.

SV VS SS rly does makes difference, only SS makes the run faster since a group with 3 corpses only takes one SS.


Also know that you can trade skeleton bones for an ID kit - trade them to the collector in Jokanur.

Skinny Corpse

Skinny Corpse

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Mar 2007

Company of Corpses [CoC]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Silly Warrior
I'm hesitant to close or keep this open for two reasons.

1.I'm not sure that Skinny is lying...or telling the truth. Considering his post count I don't know what to say.
2. If what he is saying is true, then everything we know about drop rates is wrong, which makes it seem like hes lying.
-----------------------------------------
I will give you until this time next week to come up with MORE evidence to support your claim, otherwise I will close this thread for simply lying to the community.

Thanks! Uhm.. first of all.. what has my post count to do with anything?

I could never imagine new theories would be that intimidating that
you risk getting your thread closed.

But you know what, do as you wish. I started this thread to share interesting
things we've found out, but somehow it's not that funny anymore.

We'll keep doing synced runs.. and if the thread's still open when we're done
some I'll post them.

A Leprechaun

A Leprechaun

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Feb 2006

W/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skinny Corpse
Uhm.. first of all.. what has my post count to do with anything?

I could never imagine new theories would be that intimidating that
you risk getting your thread closed.

But you know what, do as you wish. I started this thread to share interesting
things we've found out, but somehow it's not that funny anymore.

We'll keep doing synced runs.. and if the thread's still open when we're done
some I'll post them. I think he just meant he could not asses whether your results could be accurate due to the fact that you are a newer member and have not done any anything like this before. I guess.

Yeah sure do some more tests and get back to us with what you find out, and some proof. I don't mean that in a bad way, at the moment I do not believe or disbelieve your theory, without proof I will not.

~A Leprechaun~

Skinny Corpse

Skinny Corpse

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Mar 2007

Company of Corpses [CoC]

We're in the middle of a run as I type this, expect a huge update tonight.

Nyktos

Nyktos

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Jun 2007

The Nyktos Guild [win]

Post screenshots where the party menu is open on both of them. That will prove you didn't go in together.

Armond

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Jun 2006

California

W/E

Quote:
Originally Posted by ricocheting
yes, but the problem is i HIGHLY HIGHLY doubt it's seeded with a second timestamp. it's probably a millisecond or smaller increment its seeded with. which would mean to get the same loot you'd both have to zone in at the same one-one thousands (or smaller) of a second time period.

also, it would have to be a complete idiot programmer to ONLY seed with a timestamp. you seed with the timestamp in addition to a character ID or something additional exactly so you don't get this type of results the original poster is finding.

not saying I don't believe the OP, but someone totally unrelated to them needs to be able duplicate these results.
This is ANet. Don't expect greatness. It wouldn't surprise me if it were only timestamps.

I might be able to get a friend to do this with me, in cursed lands or some such.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Silly Warrior
2. If what he is saying is true, then everything we know about drop rates is wrong, which makes it seem like hes lying. Um, what exactly did we "know" about drop rates? Things drop, and some things drop rarely. IMO, there's only ever been evidence that... well, he's right. Especially from that programming standpoint.