Drop Rates SoJ vs. SV (Image heavy!)
Skinny Corpse
First post updated with a heep of screenshots from our 3rd run.
Armond
I do believe the unbelievers just got a whole lot more proof shoved up them.
YornStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skinny Corpse
First post updated with a heep of screenshots from our 3rd run.
Holy mother of Jesus.
Holy mother of Jesus.
placebo overdose
wow amazing work that is crazy i still dont understand it all but how will they be able to fix this so fast?
Armond
What needs fixing? It's still always a gamble when you go in :P
Skinny Corpse
Quote:
Originally Posted by placebo overdose
wow amazing work that is crazy i still dont understand it all but how will they be able to fix this so fast?
Hmm? Fix what?
Nightow
Well, I think we have plenty of proof here. Now how can every one use this to their advantage, I wonder?
Gwmaster
well, i have to say, nice discovery there
Armond
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightow
Well, I think we have plenty of proof here. Now how can every one use this to their advantage, I wonder?
Yes, I'd love to see huge teams (5+) of people sync-farming knowing what they're going to get before entering.
Beren985
/respect
Wow this is an amazing discovery of how the looting system works in the game. Thanks for all your efforts, it must have taken a while to sync those runs, but it should have been fun to know what your brother was going to have as a drop in advanced, so you could spoil him if the green was going to be dropped or not xD
I think the only thing left to do to 100% confirm this is to try to get the same results on some other areas, and to replicate the result by some other independent group of people. I may be able to do the same with my brother in a month, but I guess somebody else will be able to do it before. Also I'd like to know if doing some different action mid-run would change your loot afterwards, such as you killing a monster that your brother did not or killing them in a different order, or even recycling some objects. I have a theory that could explain this change if it was taking place.
I have to ask you: How did you get to the point to try to sync those runs to see if the loot was the same? I never thought of the possibility of this loot system.
To the people asking if this could be exploited or not: This only proves that loot is already determined by a seed when you enter the zone, but no by the method you choose to kill the monsters. As the seed is random, there is no feasible way to exploit it in order to get better drops, for example you can not predict the time you should enter a zone for a green drop, although the drop depends on the time you get in.
Greetings
Wow this is an amazing discovery of how the looting system works in the game. Thanks for all your efforts, it must have taken a while to sync those runs, but it should have been fun to know what your brother was going to have as a drop in advanced, so you could spoil him if the green was going to be dropped or not xD
I think the only thing left to do to 100% confirm this is to try to get the same results on some other areas, and to replicate the result by some other independent group of people. I may be able to do the same with my brother in a month, but I guess somebody else will be able to do it before. Also I'd like to know if doing some different action mid-run would change your loot afterwards, such as you killing a monster that your brother did not or killing them in a different order, or even recycling some objects. I have a theory that could explain this change if it was taking place.
I have to ask you: How did you get to the point to try to sync those runs to see if the loot was the same? I never thought of the possibility of this loot system.
To the people asking if this could be exploited or not: This only proves that loot is already determined by a seed when you enter the zone, but no by the method you choose to kill the monsters. As the seed is random, there is no feasible way to exploit it in order to get better drops, for example you can not predict the time you should enter a zone for a green drop, although the drop depends on the time you get in.
Greetings
I D E L E T E D I
If loot is already determind when you enter an area. That means that the information is client based. Does that mean you could write a program to scan this information and it could tell you what Loot you will be getting? Since it would be client based there is no way for anet to detect it or am getting something wrong here?
Armond
Who said the seed is determined from the client?
placebo overdose
lol i told you i was confused
ok ok this does not need fixing but now that i understand i dont believe it either so yeah : P
ok ok this does not need fixing but now that i understand i dont believe it either so yeah : P
manitoba1073
You really need different ppl to do this and I said the easiest place to see the results is Min Chos Estate since you can sync the entry easier. I offer to help with the testing.
We also know every creature has there own unique drop table meaning they can only drop certain items.
However the pics still dont show that the loot is determined upon entering the area. It shows even more evidence towards a charecters seed placement more than anything else in determining what loot you recive on the creatures loot table selection. How do I know this its simple as me and a friend have 2 characters that have a near identicle seed placement and can get near similar results however when we switch to different chars where the seeds are different the loot drops are completely different.
We also know every creature has there own unique drop table meaning they can only drop certain items.
However the pics still dont show that the loot is determined upon entering the area. It shows even more evidence towards a charecters seed placement more than anything else in determining what loot you recive on the creatures loot table selection. How do I know this its simple as me and a friend have 2 characters that have a near identicle seed placement and can get near similar results however when we switch to different chars where the seeds are different the loot drops are completely different.
ghostlyfenix
this sounds legit to me.............
Armond
Quote:
Originally Posted by manitoba1073
You really need different ppl to do this and I said the easiest place to see the results is Min Chos Estate since you can sync the entry easier. I offer to help with the testing.
We also know every creature has there own unique drop table meaning they can only drop certain items.
However the pics still dont show that the loot is determined upon entering the area. It shows even more evidence towards a charecters seed placement more than anything else in determining what loot you recive on the creatures loot table selection. How do I know this its simple as me and a friend have 2 characters that have a near identicle seed placement and can get near similar results however when we switch to different chars where the seeds are different the loot drops are completely different. What? How on earth does this not prove that the seed is created by entering the area? They enter the area at the same time, they get the same loot. They enter at different times, they get different loot. Regardless, how do you know if any two characters have near identical seeds? (Not to mention that you will always get very different results unless the seeds are identical.)
We also know every creature has there own unique drop table meaning they can only drop certain items.
However the pics still dont show that the loot is determined upon entering the area. It shows even more evidence towards a charecters seed placement more than anything else in determining what loot you recive on the creatures loot table selection. How do I know this its simple as me and a friend have 2 characters that have a near identicle seed placement and can get near similar results however when we switch to different chars where the seeds are different the loot drops are completely different. What? How on earth does this not prove that the seed is created by entering the area? They enter the area at the same time, they get the same loot. They enter at different times, they get different loot. Regardless, how do you know if any two characters have near identical seeds? (Not to mention that you will always get very different results unless the seeds are identical.)
manitoba1073
Quote:
Originally Posted by Armond
What? How on earth does this not prove that the seed is created by entering the area? They enter the area at the same time, they get the same loot. They enter at different times, they get different loot. Regardless, how do you know if any two characters have near identical seeds? (Not to mention that you will always get very different results unless the seeds are identical.)
No the seed is created when you made the character. Otherwise you would not be able to get the results that are being seen. As far as getting the same loot I think you need to go back and look at there pictures there are differences although slight. They have yet to get the exact same loot.
How do you know if characters have the same seed? Easy really. If you do it in more than just 1 area and it happens then you know its not the area thats generating the seed. And as I said before me and a friend has done it before several times on different chars. Not to mention I gave the perfect spot to get exact loads to see for yourselfs to get the tests.
How do you know if characters have the same seed? Easy really. If you do it in more than just 1 area and it happens then you know its not the area thats generating the seed. And as I said before me and a friend has done it before several times on different chars. Not to mention I gave the perfect spot to get exact loads to see for yourselfs to get the tests.
Armond
Have you considered that it's the time, not the characters or the area, that makes the seed? Thus why you need to enter at the exact same time? That would also explain why there are slight differences - because entering at the exact same nanosecond is exceedingly difficult, due to lag and human error (among other things).
If the seed were created upon creation, then you would not get the same results shown here, as it'd be impossible to get the same seed and thus the same drops (or at least ones with this level of similarity), as the seed would be based on the character name and/or ID.
I'm not denying that a seed is made on character creation - I'm denying that it matters in this instance, and that there's proof of the character creation seed (whereas there is proof of a seed created on loading the area).
Edit: If loot were based on the character seed you'd eventually get the same loot over again. It'd be a huge loop (how huge I don't know), but eventually if you farmed one area long enough you'd get the same run twice. And take it from someone that spams cursed lands, you don't.
If the seed were created upon creation, then you would not get the same results shown here, as it'd be impossible to get the same seed and thus the same drops (or at least ones with this level of similarity), as the seed would be based on the character name and/or ID.
I'm not denying that a seed is made on character creation - I'm denying that it matters in this instance, and that there's proof of the character creation seed (whereas there is proof of a seed created on loading the area).
Edit: If loot were based on the character seed you'd eventually get the same loot over again. It'd be a huge loop (how huge I don't know), but eventually if you farmed one area long enough you'd get the same run twice. And take it from someone that spams cursed lands, you don't.
manitoba1073
Quote:
Originally Posted by Armond
If the seed were created upon creation, then you would not get the same results shown here, as it'd be impossible to get the same seed and thus the same drops (or at least ones with this level of similarity), as the seed would be based on the character name and/or ID.
I'm not denying that a seed is made on character creation - I'm denying that it matters in this instance, and that there's proof of the character creation seed (whereas there is proof of a seed created on loading the area).
Edit: If loot were based on the character seed you'd eventually get the same loot over again. It'd be a huge loop (how huge I don't know), but eventually if you farmed one area long enough you'd get the same run twice. And take it from someone that spams cursed lands, you don't. Yes you would still get the same and similar results. And yes I have seen the same loot in an area or a very very few cases. 90% of my 6500 hours in game have been soloing Ive seen tons of things also.
ragnagard
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skinny Corpse
First post updated with a heep of screenshots from our 3rd run.
Really, was a good job ^^.
I'm trully curious about your discoverings hehe. I suggest you to use another area to make even 1 sync run (i mean a bit, not a looooong run) to try if drop is "triggered" by time entered and not only at Fahranur, cause maybe just in that zone. I dont mean that this is not true huh! Just wanna know if this happens "everywhere".
On the other hand, I think that the closing option of this thread is just cause you are just "breaking" the base of our drop knowledge :P. They are afraid, as I do. I dont know if ya understand it but you are initiating a "knowing-what-will-drop-i-rezone-to-get-more" move
! If this work and is done massively, GW market will go down in prices (even if this is good... or it isnt) as you could virtually get the item you want, whenever ya want it(almost). This point scares me a bit ^^ .
And by the way... it isnt to easy to "find" the memory zone, data/value, cause memory is big, you dont know what to search and more important, the size in bytes of the value.
Really, was a good job ^^.I'm trully curious about your discoverings hehe. I suggest you to use another area to make even 1 sync run (i mean a bit, not a looooong run) to try if drop is "triggered" by time entered and not only at Fahranur, cause maybe just in that zone. I dont mean that this is not true huh! Just wanna know if this happens "everywhere".
On the other hand, I think that the closing option of this thread is just cause you are just "breaking" the base of our drop knowledge :P. They are afraid, as I do. I dont know if ya understand it but you are initiating a "knowing-what-will-drop-i-rezone-to-get-more" move
! If this work and is done massively, GW market will go down in prices (even if this is good... or it isnt) as you could virtually get the item you want, whenever ya want it(almost). This point scares me a bit ^^ .And by the way... it isnt to easy to "find" the memory zone, data/value, cause memory is big, you dont know what to search and more important, the size in bytes of the value.
Skinny Corpse
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightow
Well, I think we have plenty of proof here. Now how can every one use this to their advantage, I wonder?
I don't think you can use it to determine your drops, and I'm not sure I
would want to either. I kinde like the surprise.
would want to either. I kinde like the surprise.
ragnagard
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skinny Corpse
I don't think you can use it to determine your drops, and I'm not sure I
would want to either. I kinde like the surprise.
You dont want but... egoism, envy, lust .... are just human feelings lol. Some1 may sense them hehe.
I wont have any need for this to be programmed or.... well only if I need a item that nobody sells, like the Ugly Stick (yeah i like its weird name lol)
would want to either. I kinde like the surprise.
You dont want but... egoism, envy, lust .... are just human feelings lol. Some1 may sense them hehe.I wont have any need for this to be programmed or.... well only if I need a item that nobody sells, like the Ugly Stick (yeah i like its weird name lol)
Armond
Quote:
Originally Posted by ragnagard
On the other hand, I think that the closing option of this thread is just cause you are just "breaking" the base of our drop knowledge :P. They are afraid, as I do. I dont know if ya understand it but you are initiating a "knowing-what-will-drop-i-rezone-to-get-more" move ! If this work and is done massively, GW market will go down in prices (even if this is good... or it isnt) as you could virtually get the item you want, whenever ya want it(almost). This point scares me a bit ^^ .
How2predict seed?
! If this work and is done massively, GW market will go down in prices (even if this is good... or it isnt) as you could virtually get the item you want, whenever ya want it(almost). This point scares me a bit ^^ .
How2predict seed?
Skinny Corpse
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beren985
Wow this is an amazing discovery of how the looting system works in the game. Thanks for all your efforts, it must have taken a while to sync those runs, but it should have been fun to know what your brother was going to have as a drop in advanced, so you could spoil him if the green was going to be dropped or not xD
it's still exciting.
Quote: Originally Posted by Beren985 I think the only thing left to do to 100% confirm this is to try to get the same results on some other areas, and to replicate the result by some other independent group of people. I may be able to do the same with my brother in a month, but I guess somebody else will be able to do it before. Also I'd like to know if doing some different action mid-run would change your loot afterwards, such as you killing a monster that your brother did not or killing them in a different order, or even recycling some objects. I have a theory that could explain this change if it was taking place. We are looking for new areas to try, but the thing with Fahranur is that
you get a fast confirmation whether the sync was successful or not, by
checking the composition of the mobs. But we'll keep trying.
Quote:
I have to ask you: How did you get to the point to try to sync those runs to see if the loot was the same? I never thought of the possibility of this loot system.
This came from pure curiosity. We both were faming Fahranur at the time
and one of us could do the suckiest run ever, while the other got a truckload
of gold. So, we got curious what would happen if we went at the same time.
Quote:
Interesting idea, KartMan and willypiggy both, got me curiousand one of us could do the suckiest run ever, while the other got a truckload
of gold. So, we got curious what would happen if we went at the same time.
Quote:
I was just wondering in a un-perfect world when anyone could find the prediction. Just wondering and nothing real.|
Originally Posted by Beren985
To the people asking if this could be exploited or not: This only proves that loot is already determined by a seed when you enter the zone, but no by the method you choose to kill the monsters. As the seed is random, there is no feasible way to exploit it in order to get better drops, for example you can not predict the time you should enter a zone for a green drop, although the drop depends on the time you get in.
Greetings Agreed. I wouldn't want it any other way either, really. The surprise is the fun part.
Reflect
Let`s say the 55hp monk went farmed, got drops, made a screeniethen the SV get the items from the 55hp droped them made screnie so they have identical items ?!
Armond
Like I said, how2predict seed :P
Originally Posted by Reflect
Quote: Let`s say the 55hp monk went farmed, got drops, made a screeniethen the SV get the items from the 55hp droped them made screnie so they have identical items ?!
Look at the screens for the 3rd run.
Skinny Corpse
Quote:
Originally Posted by ragnagard
You dont want but... egoism, envy, lust .... are just human feelings lol. Some1 may sense them hehe.
I wont have any need for this to be programmed or.... well only if I need a item that nobody sells, like the Ugly Stick (yeah i like its weird name lol) hehe, I had to wiki The Ugly Stick.
Skinny Corpse
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reflect
Let`s say the 55hp monk went farmed, got drops, made a screeniethen the SV get the items from the 55hp droped them made screnie so they have identical items ?!
Armond beat me to it.
Did you really check all the screenshots? I can't see how the 3rd run would leave any doubt.
KartMan
hey again,
I found this old topic about anti farm code and such : http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10157328 I posted a few theories in it, maybe you'll find them interesting and related to those discoveries you made cheers
Skinny Corpse
Quote:
Originally Posted by KartMan
hey again,
I found this old topic about anti farm code and such : http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10157328 I posted a few theories in it, maybe you'll find them interesting and related to those discoveries you made cheers Oh, I remember that thread. Some interesting reading none the less, thanks!
boogerboy72
after seeing the second set of screens, i am throughly convinced.
now, we need a way to figure out the "code" used so we can use it to our advantage.
Adam144
Wow. This is an amazing discovery. The 3rd run is really the icing on the cake for me, I full believe your theory now
willypiggy
After seeing your 3rd run I have 0.0001% doubt remaining in my mind. As for ways to put this to use, say two people zone into an area at the same time. One person then proceeds ahead, if they get good loot then the second peorson gets exact copy's of that loot. Just an idea...
meat shield
can you try disconnecting mid-run to see if drops change?
KartMan
Quote:
Originally Posted by willypiggy
After seeing your 3rd run I have 0.0001% doubt remaining in my mind. As for ways to put this to use, say two people zone into an area at the same time. One person then proceeds ahead, if they get good loot then the second peorson gets exact copy's of that loot. Just an idea...
I see your point
it would be interesting to sync entry into an area, have 1 person make the run while the other waits, when the first has finished his run, the other person proceeds, now check loot I guess it still would be the same, to be confirmed though
Valeria
But isn't there a difference between a all in one kill (like SS builds often do) and the other builds. [skill]shield of judgment[/skill] is hardly all in one... ?
ragnagard
Quote:
Originally Posted by Armond
|
Quote:
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Originally Posted by KartMan
it would be interesting to sync entry into an area, have 1 person make the run while the other waits, when the first has finished his run, the other person proceeds, now check loot
I guess it still would be the same, to be confirmed though This will be fun, as if the first one gots crap... the other can save "hours" of farming haha. I have some (interesting) questions now that I have no answer to (yet): - You entered Fahranur, the colony from a .... (checking english...) outpost... (I mean Jokanur). What will happen if ya do this with a second zone changing? I am suggesting a case like myself going to vaettir farm (enter bjora's mark 1st, enter Jaga morraine 2nd). If syncing at least the 2nd... will drops still be the same? - If your characters are not from the same or near lapse of time (creation seed), will the drops be the same? I mean, my brother ele and mine are from different campaigns and also creaded apart. I think I could check this hehe. - Another big question you may say its weird or stupid but.... what happen if you sync... using hero(s)??? Yeah its stupid as you dont have so much drop and blahblahblah but.... even with "hero-stealing" system.... will the things that you get be the same? Will the hero take something random of the posible loot? (I mean if you should get a white and a golden.... will you get the goldie as your brother... or randomly you will get the golden and he the white?) I'm feeling quite curious about this hehe. boogerboy72
i just wanna know if im gonna waste this run thorugh the domain of anguish or not lol.
it would be cool to see what the enemies are "carrying" also
Skinny Corpse
Quote:
Originally Posted by KartMan
it would be interesting to sync entry into an area, have 1 person make the run while the other waits, when the first has finished his run, the other person proceeds, now check loot I guess it still would be the same, to be confirmed though |
and willing to try it.
Quote: Originally Posted by ragnagard
- You entered Fahranur, the colony from a .... (checking english...) outpost... (I mean Jokanur). What will happen if ya do this with a second zone changing? I am suggesting a case like myself going to vaettir farm (enter bjora's mark 1st, enter Jaga morraine 2nd). If syncing at least the 2nd... will drops still be the same?
I'm not sure I'm following here.. you mean passing a zone without going
through an outpost?
through an outpost?
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by ragnagard
- If your characters are not from the same or near lapse of time (creation seed), will the drops be the same? I mean, my brother ele and mine are from different campaigns and also creaded apart. I think I could check this hehe
Here's the thing; my monk is a Tyria character and Phawk's necro is a Nightfall
character, created with many months in between.. that must mean we have widely different creation seed, right? We've already been talkning about taking a hero in each party to see how the loot spreads in the party.. this is something I'm REALLY curious about.
Skinny Corpse
Quote:
Originally Posted by Valeria
But isn't there a difference between a all in one kill (like SS builds often do) and the other builds. [skill]shield of judgment[/skill] is hardly all in one... ?
What I really would like to try is some real elem AoE in an area in wich it's
possible and compare it to SV, but from what I've seen thus far I don't believe there would be a difference. And as for SoJ goes, when you reach the undead you kill pretty much all at the same time, except some spell casters. |