Ursanway ... vanquish PUG annoyance?
romeus petrus
Hence the point. Anet gave us PvE skills like Ursan that are meant to be overpowered. This way professions like Me, P, A, Rt made it thru areas there where not generally speaking welcome into. That's what PvE only skills were intended to do, and that's what they are doing.
aapo
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Originally Posted by lyra_song
zoning has nothing to do with the matter at hand. thats really a pointless comparison. Try comparing Ursan to some other powerful build.
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Originally Posted by lyra_song
Ursan is very imbalanced compared to other builds. It has an efficacy that denies all other builds because it outshines them all.
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Originally Posted by Avarre
I don't see how walking or zoning has any connection to skill determining success.
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Chess is a 100% skill game since both players have same pieces available at the start of game. Counter-Strike is 70% skill game since aiming correctly determines winning frags, but arbitrary factors like better guns and winning team bias takes some away.
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Originally Posted by Bryant Again
This is something I agree with and have stated previous times, as well: Ursan Blessing doesn't help player discrimination. It may help class discrimination, but instead of no longer being divided by class ("mesmers? no thank you") people are divided by accounts ("no GWEN? no thank you.")
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Fried Tech
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Originally Posted by Bryant Again
It's already been discussed that the "if you don't like it don't use it" point is false, since you can apply that to any major glitch, exploit, or overpowered skill. "There's this glitch that makes you get a billion k in one second. ANet doesn't have to do anything about it because if we don't like it we don't have to use it."
It's much deeper than personal choice. This is an online game, it affects people. |
Ursan does not have a concequence for everyone in the playing community the way that duping, gliches, or botting does. Those things have a large impact on the playing community because they mess with the game economics.
Ursan does no such thing. It can not be used to solo farm. It can not be used to gain access to areas that others can't get to. And it does not make everything insanely easy. It makes things easier.... but by no means does it make you invincible.
Please tell me how this skill has tarnished your playing experience. Other than making your cookie cutter build (which was also imba, or else it wouldn't have been the ONLY way) not quite so leet. In other words, again, how has this affected anything other than your epeen?
Avarre
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Originally Posted by aapo
- So true! I also see no correlation whether you kill monster in 5 or 3 seconds to skill. You are not playing the game, your skillbar is playing the game. Your skillbar is the instrument which determines your success, using it correctly gives small margin where this much-spoken "skill" exists.
Chess is a 100% skill game since both players have same pieces available at the start of game. Counter-Strike is 70% skill game since aiming correctly determines winning frags, but arbitrary factors like better guns and winning team bias takes some away. |
The idea is that all skillbars in maximum potential should be balanced, so that no matter how amazing you are at build design you'll be on equal footing. That way skill and how you use your skillbar count more towards your victory than whether you brought the right skillbar.
While this was already falling apart, Ursan is like a hammer to a sheet of cracked glass. It is one of many problems that create the situation you describe, and certainly not the only thing that needs fixing.
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| Please tell me how this skill has tarnished your playing experience. Other than making your cookie cutter build (which was also imba, or else it wouldn't have been the ONLY way) not quite so leet. In other words, again, how has this affected anything other than your epeen? |
Fortunately, I can see the game in terms wider than myself. I understand how balance works, and I understand how creating power creep and imbalances reduces the depth of the game. This worries me because this is the opposite of what made GW unique on the market - skill over time, and balance. I wouldn't recommend GW to any of my friends because the overall PvE experience is largely lackluster - and a degeneration of part of the playerbase away from tactical and skill-based play towards powering through areas.
If all you're concerned about is yourself, you probably shouldn't be commenting on overall game design.
Dark Kal
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Originally Posted by Abedeus
Uhm. But 600 hp used to tank infinite amount of monsters without having to worry about anything. Ursan wasn't really nerfed, as people were close to monsters anyway... They just have to, OH NO! ENGAGE MONSTERS!!
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| Read again that bolded part. Again. And again. Still don't understand? Again. Read till you understand that Elite Area means that player must be better than what was during normal storyline. |
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| Sure it will do. But PuG's take ONLY r10. And ONLY r8 lightbringer. Wasting 8 hours (or more, if someone farms both titles from the beginning) a day so I can... Enjoy? Ursan? I was with my guild using Ursanway to clear FoW. Yeah, it was stupid, but we used 2 monks, 1 paragon (me), 1 nuker, 1 DS/Whirlwind and 3 ursans. GOD!! That was the most boring time I've been in FoW ever! I can't imagine what would be with 5 ursans, it would be even faster and even more boring... I mean if someone is excited about pressing 5 buttons blindly (no tactic at all, no skill used or required), then it's something not right with him. |
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| Paragon's could use TNTF + SY build, to make tanks out of whole team. Mesmer could be a smiter in a trio/duo or farm in Stygian Veil solo. And as a fast-cast nuker. Assassin's could try farming solo in UW too or use SY + DB/Moebius combo. Ritualists have even a Team Build in PvXWiki, plus their Shelter, Recuperation, Life and other spirits have an advantage over Monk enchantments, as they can be only interrupted by certain skills, but can't be removed as easily. Plus Weapon Spells are unremovable (Weapon of Quickening for tank/monks). |
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| Don't forget - Elite Areas were putted for a REASON, that is for good players to complete them, not ursan buttonsmashers. |
lyra_song
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Originally Posted by aapo
- It does not deny any other build. Saying so is just false.
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If you had a choice between a good tool and a better tool, what would you pick?
Theres a semi-sharp knife and a sharp knife. Which would you choose? Both can cut it fine, but you'd have to be an idiot, or really want to gimp yourself to use the less effective item.
People keep saying that Ursan is a choice, and simply their way of playing the game.
Guess what, your choice overpowers the other choices. Denying this fact is denying just how good the build is (and hypocritical to why you like the build in the first place).
People are compelled to play it, no longer by their own choice, but by pressure from other players.
Some players will continue to deny Ursan (like me) because I think it makes the game too easy and stupid. But I wont deny that its a powerful and effective build. Too powerful and too effective.
Bryant Again
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Originally Posted by aapo
While this is true, it's no different than age-old campaign discrimination. I wouldn't take Elementalist player who doesn't have Nightfall in his account just because Nightfall elites are so much more powerful than the rest.
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Originally Posted by Dark Kal
I agree that an elite area shouldn't be easy but I don't think an elite area is balanced if you can only use certain cookie cutter builds to accomplish them and do not allow all the classes in the game to find a group. Theirby disallowing a person who might be very skillful (elite even) at his class but finding no chance to try the elite area since his class isn't popular. That's imbalanced to me.
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zwei2stein
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Originally Posted by Avarre
...I wouldn't recommend GW to any of my friends because the overall PvE experience is largely lackluster - and a degeneration of part of the playerbase away from tactical and skill-based play towards powering through areas.
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GWs PvE is designed to be tactical game rather than "L99, u nub" game or "Come hereth, listen to my saga" game.
If you take away tactics you end up with very, very, very bad free mmo with no character advancment and no deep lore., because tactics are inherent part of GWs. they ARE gws.
aapo
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Originally Posted by Avarre
The idea is that all skillbars in maximum potential should be balanced, so that no matter how amazing you are at build design you'll be on equal footing. That way skill and how you use your skillbar count more towards your victory than whether you brought the right skillbar.
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Imagine if there was just three skills: Barrage, Prepared Shot and Archer's Signet. Then we would hear the same arguments as we hear from UB: "Barrage is just too good, no one even considers Prepared Shot and Archer's Signet when it exists in the game." ...although people can still use the other two just fine.
Then ANET nerfs Barrage to oblivion.
Same arguments begin: "Prepared Shot is just miles better than Archer's Signet, game is just stupid when you have exactly one skill you can use" ...and again nerfed Barrage and Archer's Signet are still there.
How can you say that the game is about skill when it's ninety percent about skillbars, and you agree with this statement?
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Originally Posted by Bryant Again
But there were enough skills that would allow you to cope. With UB, nothing compares.
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Bryant Again
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Originally Posted by aapo
What works depends on area. Blame the area design if you can complete with only one build.
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Nightmares Hammer
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Originally Posted by lyra_song
You are completely naive to human behavior then.
If you had a choice between a good tool and a better tool, what would you pick? Theres a semi-sharp knife and a sharp knife. Which would you choose? Both can cut it fine, but you'd have to be an idiot, or really want to gimp yourself to use the less effective item. People keep saying that Ursan is a choice, and simply their way of playing the game. Guess what, your choice overpowers the other choices. Denying this fact is denying just how good the build is (and hypocritical to why you like the build in the first place). People are compelled to play it, no longer by their own choice, but by pressure from other players. Some players will continue to deny Ursan (like me) because I think it makes the game too easy and stupid. But I wont deny that its a powerful and effective build. Too powerful and too effective. |
Abedeus
Is only me, or are the ursaners starting to run out of arguments? They are now creating an impossible scenarios to justify their build -.-
Dark Kel - you are all the time saying that only ursan and the trinity (,,cookie cutter'' build you are referring to) are the only valid builds in DoA. They are NOT. People created at least 10 team builds to solo whole or some of the areas of DoA.
Oh, and forgot that P/N can farm for Gemstones, even after Splinter Barrage nerf (replace Splinter Weapon and P/Rt with Mark of Pain and P/N). Every class you mentioned had a place in DoA, even my poor mesmer.
And you are forgetting about one thing - cookie cutter build is just a build that will work in the given environment. It's pretty logical that people won't run in DoA 8x W/Mo mending builds, just because it worked in general PvE. That's why it's an Elite Area - so players with bad builds/no skill can either get better build or gain skill, but now they only have to farm the hell out of lightbringer/norn titles.
And you are forgetting that GW is supposed to be about skill > time.
Aapo: Your dumb scenario when there are 3 elite skills is of course flawed, but here goes - Barrage is bad without more than 2 monsters, as it's a weak version of spammable Power Shot. Prepared Shot would be good in PvP as a spike build (rofl), as it has quite a lot of damage, although it's secondary effect would be useless. And Archer's Signet would be quite good in pressure build. As you can see, your arguments were void and frail.
Dark Kel - you are all the time saying that only ursan and the trinity (,,cookie cutter'' build you are referring to) are the only valid builds in DoA. They are NOT. People created at least 10 team builds to solo whole or some of the areas of DoA.
Oh, and forgot that P/N can farm for Gemstones, even after Splinter Barrage nerf (replace Splinter Weapon and P/Rt with Mark of Pain and P/N). Every class you mentioned had a place in DoA, even my poor mesmer.
And you are forgetting about one thing - cookie cutter build is just a build that will work in the given environment. It's pretty logical that people won't run in DoA 8x W/Mo mending builds, just because it worked in general PvE. That's why it's an Elite Area - so players with bad builds/no skill can either get better build or gain skill, but now they only have to farm the hell out of lightbringer/norn titles.
And you are forgetting that GW is supposed to be about skill > time.
Aapo: Your dumb scenario when there are 3 elite skills is of course flawed, but here goes - Barrage is bad without more than 2 monsters, as it's a weak version of spammable Power Shot. Prepared Shot would be good in PvP as a spike build (rofl), as it has quite a lot of damage, although it's secondary effect would be useless. And Archer's Signet would be quite good in pressure build. As you can see, your arguments were void and frail.
aapo
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Originally Posted by lyra_song
If you had a choice between a good tool and a better tool, what would you pick?
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Originally Posted by lyra_song
Guess what, your choice overpowers the other choices. Denying this fact is denying just how good the build is (and hypocritical to why you like the build in the first place).
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Instead you should ask what kind of builds can complete area X to determine if the area is hard enough. If you make the kind of area where no build can complete it, you're wasting precious development time and nerves of players.
Abedeus
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Originally Posted by aapo
- Better tool? It's a problem that something is better than other thing?
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| - I agree that Ursan is more powerful than anything else, but something always is more powerful than others. If you follow this chain and always nerf the most powerful thing, you're left with nothing. |
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| Instead you should ask what kind of builds can complete area X to determine if the area is hard enough. If you make the kind of area where no build can complete it, you're wasting precious development time and nerves of players. |
zwei2stein
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Originally Posted by aapo
- I agree that Ursan is more powerful than anything else, but something always is more powerful than others. If you follow this chain and always nerf the most powerful thing, you're left with nothing.
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The most powerful thing also can be hardest to use. Or require good teamwork to pull off.
There is reason why PvPers LOVE skills like frenzy and healsig - in hands of bad players it ends up as suicide. in hands of expert player it ends up as powerfull killing machine.
You end up with very powerful but hard to use skills that reward skill with power. And less powerful but easy to use skills that are not that awesome, but cant be messed up by players.
Bryant Again
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Originally Posted by aapo
Better tool? It's a problem that something is better than other thing?
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Originally Posted by aapo
I agree that Ursan is more powerful than anything else, but something always is more powerful than others. If you follow this chain and always nerf the most powerful thing, you're left with nothing.
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Originally Posted by aapo
Instead you should ask what kind of builds can complete area X to determine if the area is hard enough. If you make the kind of area where no build can complete it, you're wasting precious development time and nerves of players.
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So, since now inexperienced players can complete most of what were considered the "harder" areas, should ANet focus on all of the areas themselves or at what's causing them to be so easy? Bear in mind that ANet would want to focus on the easier solution.
lyra_song
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Originally Posted by aapo
- Better tool? It's a problem that something is better than other thing?
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If one thing is better than another, it is used more. Look at home many elite skills are not used at all.
In a game where theres literally THOUSANDS of skill combinations, why should there be ONE skillset that devours everything else for breakfast?
This creates homogeny. This creates boredom. It is STALENESS.
Its a menu with 100,000 items, but only 1 that tastes good.
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| - I agree that Ursan is more powerful than anything else, but something always is more powerful than others. If you follow this chain and always nerf the most powerful thing, you're left with nothing. |
You refresh the meta and you shake the player base from stagnation.
You create ALTERNATIVES that are JUST AS EFFECTIVE. So that theres variety and multiple ways to play.
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| Instead you should ask what kind of builds can complete area X to determine if the area is hard enough. If you make the kind of area where no build can complete it, you're wasting precious development time and nerves of players. |
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I think the problem with this game is that some of the playerbase is so easily satisfied by shallow gameplay that they lose focus on asking Anet to make the game...you know...actually good.
romeus petrus
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Originally Posted by Abedeus
Oh, and forgot that P/N can farm for Gemstones, even after Splinter Barrage nerf (replace Splinter Weapon and P/Rt with Mark of Pain and P/N). Every class you mentioned had a place in DoA, even my poor mesmer.
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Abedeus
If people didn't search for rits/paragons, it's the idiotic PuG mentality.
And he said that those characters were useless in DoA, so I pointed out that none of them are.
And he said that those characters were useless in DoA, so I pointed out that none of them are.
Jetdoc
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Originally Posted by Avarre
This would be true if not for the fact the trinity build is flawed and inefficient when compared to straight damage dealing on a backbone of passive defense. This is why few 'good' pve teams run it anymore.
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Talk about God mode.
romeus petrus
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Originally Posted by Abedeus
If people didn't search for rits/paragons, it's the idiotic PuG mentality.
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Bryant Again
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Originally Posted by romeus petrus
And Hence UB made it easy to these poorly appreciated professions to get into PUGs.
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lyra_song
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Originally Posted by romeus petrus
And Hence UB made it easy to these poorly appreciated professions to get into PUGs.
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Player A: Ugh..i cant beat ______, its too hard.
Player B: Keep trying, the skills you learn will help you further in the game.
Player A: Nah, Ill just complain to Anet, they'll make it easier to so I don't have to play well to progress, and suck up all the PUGs in later missions.
Player B: Then how will you beat the later missions?
Player A: I'll just complain again.
~ Dan ~
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Originally Posted by Bryant Again
...Yet also causes another form discrimination through campaign ownership.
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aapo
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Originally Posted by zwei2stein
The most powerful thing also can be hardest to use. Or require good teamwork to pull off.
There is reason why PvPers LOVE skills like frenzy and healsig - in hands of bad players it ends up as suicide. in hands of expert player it ends up as powerfull killing machine. You end up with very powerful but hard to use skills that reward skill with power. And less powerful but easy to use skills that are not that awesome, but cant be messed up by players. |
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Originally Posted by Bryant Again
You also have to look at other facts, such as who's completing it and who's having trouble. If inexperienced players can complete it, it's easy. If only experienced players can complete it, then it's hard. If experienced players are having a really hard time, it's too hard.
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Originally Posted by lyra_song
I think the problem with this game is that some of the playerbase is so easily satisfied by shallow gameplay that they lose focus on asking Anet to make the game...you know...actually good.
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lyra_song
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Originally Posted by aapo
- I think the fact that this game is essentially single player experience is loads worse than what negative effects Ursan Blessing is supposedly doing to the game. I recognize that defending UB is settling in "local minimum" in AI designer terms, but it's the best we currently have. People are playing together because of PvE skills, because heroes are just so much more reliable than human players. Without Ursan we wouldn't have PUGs and the game would be absolute shit.
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This is true.
However, this does not excuse creating gameplay that requires little player skill and is utterly BORING.
You might argue that PUGS make the game better thanks to Ursan.
I argue that PUGS that are created by Ursan are worse than having no PUGS at all, since these PUGS are mindless as you might say, absolute shit.
Fried Tech
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Originally Posted by aapo
-
- I think the fact that this game is essentially single player experience is loads worse than what negative effects Ursan Blessing is supposedly doing to the game. I recognize that defending UB is settling in "local minimum" in AI designer terms, but it's the best we currently have. People are playing together because of PvE skills, because heroes are just so much more reliable than human players. Without Ursan we wouldn't have PUGs and the game would be absolute shit. |
lyra_song
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Originally Posted by Fried Tech
QFT. The amount of people looking for groups in all elite areas has jumped quite a bit since UB became popular.
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Shadey
Well look at Ursan from another point of view. The fact is if it wasnt for ursan I would have never got into DoA and completed it.
Ive played from the day this game was released but ive always just PvE without doing elite areas,You know why..cause when your new to the elite areas u cant get a grp for love or money,and thats a fact.
Ive been abused in everyway u could be asking to join a grp in DoA,deep,urgoz etc..its crazy.
I can make any build in a matter of seconds, But do think people will allow a newer player into there team..no,
Along comes ursan,I max it out and hello im able to join grps and complete areas,
Im happy to say Ive done all the elite areas because of Ursan,Yes its a pain seeing nothing but ursan grps for everything but in whole the way it helped me I think its good.
Ive played from the day this game was released but ive always just PvE without doing elite areas,You know why..cause when your new to the elite areas u cant get a grp for love or money,and thats a fact.
Ive been abused in everyway u could be asking to join a grp in DoA,deep,urgoz etc..its crazy.
I can make any build in a matter of seconds, But do think people will allow a newer player into there team..no,
Along comes ursan,I max it out and hello im able to join grps and complete areas,
Im happy to say Ive done all the elite areas because of Ursan,Yes its a pain seeing nothing but ursan grps for everything but in whole the way it helped me I think its good.
lyra_song
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Originally Posted by Shadey
Well look at Ursan from another point of view. The fact is if it wasnt for ursan I would have never got into DoA and completed it.
Ive played from the day this game was released but ive always just PvE without doing elite areas,You know why..cause when your new to the elite areas u cant get a grp for love or money,and thats a fact. Ive been abused in everyway u could be asking to join a grp in DoA,deep,urgoz etc..its crazy. I can make any build in a matter of seconds, But do think people will allow a newer player into there team..no, Along comes ursan,I max it out and hello im able to join grps and complete areas, Im happy to say Ive done all the elite areas because of Ursan,Yes its a pain seeing nothing but ursan grps for everything but in whole the way it helped me I think its good. |
Instead of making the areas better for more classes, they give you Ursan.
Makes the game easier. Doesn't make the game better. It makes it worse.
Abedeus
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Originally Posted by Fried Tech
QFT. The amount of people looking for groups in all elite areas has jumped quite a bit since UB became popular.
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Shadey - That's the point, the undeserving players should gain skill or NOT pass those things. Are you better because you made it using a imba build? Did you gain any experience? If yes, this means you were very lucky to get to DoA in first place.
Fried Tech
LMAO. I like how everyone instantly posts to my above comment, but my other posts about how UB harms you, go without answer. And if you decide to flame this particular post, please read my previous 3 posts first.
Abedeus
Maybe... because everything was said? All our problems with UB have been already posted. I think there should be somewhere a list... It would be quite long.
Creeping Carl
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Originally Posted by Fried Tech
LMAO. I like how everyone instantly posts to my above comment, but my other posts about how UB harms you, go without answer. And if you decide to flame this particular post, please read my previous 3 posts first.
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romeus petrus
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Originally Posted by Bryant Again
...Yet also causes another form discrimination through campaign ownership.
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Originally Posted by lyra_song
So instead of increasing the quality of PUGs through better knowledge of gameplay, we continue to drop the lowest common denominator and make things stupider to match PUG quality?
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Originally Posted by dan-the-noob
.. and norn rank.
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My point is: rank was never confined to the Norn rank and UB. Rank discrimination was here since Prophecies and will prolly still be around for a good while even if UB was completely taken out of the game.
bel unbreakable
just as a matter of interest how many of you guys would leave say 3 of your 8 man trinity team behind and take 3 low skilled none ursan pugs with you instead into doa im guessing very few if any
Bryant Again
[QUOTE=romeus petrus]Agreed, yet that seems to be the case with every chapter specific good skill.
Not as much. If you lacked a skill, you can still have a build that could still work or work as well as what is asked for. You have a whole campaign on your side for that. But nothing compares to UB: It's a whole skill bar that can only be obtained through one skill, which can only be obtained through one expansion pack.
In this case, campaign discrimination might very well be far worse since there are no comparing alternatives to Ursan Blessing.
So saying Ursan Blessing helps discrimination would be the wrong. While it helps "unwanted" professions explore through the areas, it shuts out anyone who doesn't own GW:EN, even if that person is a "wanted profession."
Not as much. If you lacked a skill, you can still have a build that could still work or work as well as what is asked for. You have a whole campaign on your side for that. But nothing compares to UB: It's a whole skill bar that can only be obtained through one skill, which can only be obtained through one expansion pack.
In this case, campaign discrimination might very well be far worse since there are no comparing alternatives to Ursan Blessing.
So saying Ursan Blessing helps discrimination would be the wrong. While it helps "unwanted" professions explore through the areas, it shuts out anyone who doesn't own GW:EN, even if that person is a "wanted profession."
Abedeus
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Originally Posted by romeus petrus
Agreed, yet that seems to be the case with every chapter specific good skill.
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| Maybe in an ideal world PUGs would strive to be more understanding and appreciative of other professions. In reality,though; most PUGs are not. So, realistically speaking, a lot of professions and skilled players would not have a good chance getting into most pugs for high end PvE/Elite areas if it weren't for UB. Just a simple reality, not an opinion. |
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| The same with LB, SS, Hero, and Glad ranks. |
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| My point is: rank was never confined to the Norn rank and UB. Rank discrimination was here since Prophecies and will prolly still be around for a good while even if UB was completely taken out of the game. |
romeus petrus
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Originally Posted by Bryant Again
So saying Ursan Blessing helps discrimination would be the wrong. While it helps "unwanted" professions explore through the areas, it shuts out anyone who doesn't own GW:EN, even if that person is a "wanted profession."
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romeus petrus
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Originally Posted by Abedeus
No, because almost every skill can be replaced by one or two other skills from other campaigns.
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Just stating the obvious example that campaign ownership has always been a factor.