Ursanway ... vanquish PUG annoyance?

- How would I feel about others doing things I find terribly boring? Strong feeling of indifference comes to my mind! Honestly. I'm not fascist who wants to ban things that have nothing to do with me.

- How does it affect me?

- People have freedom to play or not play with whoever they want!

- Are you jealous of other people's success or what is this all about? Action carries consequence. If you don't play you don't get anything, the most logical thing in the world. Also the economy argument is flawed: you don't have to pay the price seller is asking.

If 10% of people use the skill which gives 100K on one button press and 90% don't, then those 10% will get the items they desire. However, once they have what they need, prices will rapidly drop since nothing can be sold at 100K anymore. Surely you have seen this for yourself in-game? Situation is a bit different in real life economy where items are consumed, cars get broken and there's new television sets and cell phones to be bought. Market doesn't stop in real life, but it stops in Guild Wars.

- Balanced against what? Give some examples.

- I agree, but ANET doesn't seem to care about fixing skills to make more builds viable.

- Haha, what an overstatement. I can't think of any way for PvE to be about skill, unless those horrific monsters start to ask you riddles before letting you proceed.

- Problem with this argument is that it's a slippery slope; you can say the same thing regardless of how the game is unless you give clear definition of what you consider "skillful playing". (this is why politicians seem to repeat same jargon year after year)

Aren't solo-farming builds the greatest display of skill in PvE? Also are the builds display of skill for those who created them, or just any joker who happens to copy them from Wiki? Is there skill involved in maintaining enchantments of 600 Monk? Is casting Spiteful Spirit on group of monsters aggroed next to tank skill? Is spamming Barrage, Barrage, Barrage skill? How about Dragon Slash Warriors with ridiculous adrenaline pump? Or is skill only beating the game with the oldest school Sever Artery -> Gash -> Galrath Slash skill, since you have to use Sever Artery before Gash for deep wound? Is it hard to stop every once in a while to check where the patrol groups are heading?

This isn't chess.

This elitist, who doesn't farm DoA and doesn't much care about titles, say that you're full of shit.

Ursan's an imbalanced POS skill that takes no skill to play, is boring as hell to play, destroys the economy (which, admittedly, is a non-issue) and makes it impossible for any class except monks to find PUGs, unless they ditch every other skill in the game and only run ursan. In short, Ursan is a game-breaking farm build, much like the original 55 monk was. What exactly about that is it you do not understand?

Oh wait, that's why farmboy likes it.

- People wouldn't PUG DoA without UB.

Because there weren't any DoA PUGs before GW:EN, right?

And before someone gives me the "my mesmer couldn't find a PUG before ursan" spiel, you're not playing as a mesmer if you're playing ursan.
It doesn't matter what profession you are, as soon as you click the Ursan Blessing button you're a rusher wammo on steroids.

I agree with you 100% on this. Im one to talk I like the Ursan Blessing it cool in a way but it so damn boring to me now. Ursan is like the Cheating Skill for GW and it can get uber boring just button smashing has no skill at all. Any Profession uses it is using the Profession called Ursan. Ursan alot disavatanges. GW is fun to make builds with other elites that you dont many people use for for of it.

- The place was dead.

There was discrimination.

PUGs sucked and again discrimination.

Then PvE skills opened it.

I think given the fact that you don't see anything besides Ursanway in DoA might be an indicator of imbalance.

Then why do a large number of people struggle with the game? Why do people have problems in certain areas, with certain missions, and the like?

How come I know what he's talking about but you don't? I think it's not that he hasn't made a point - which he has - just that you can't see it.

No. It just worsens the problem.

Yeah, because my R1 KoaBD title and R3 Lightbringer, along with my grand total of 51k, is *totally* elite. Way to kill your rep.

- I answered this on previous page.

The elitists I was refering to are the ones who priorize DoA or titles. I fail to see how I'm full of shit just because you have a different definition to what an elitist is.

So are meta builds; think about it, all the Elementalists do is just sitting there and press nuking keys, while the tank just stand there take all the damage. Shouldn't we nerf that as well?

If someone chooses to play something that's boring, how is this any of your business?

Ever heard of CoF runs? It is believed that 600 monks can solo nearly any areas. Shouldn't we nerf that as well?

I don't understand. I was buying Ectos in ToA today, and I saw a meta group forming for UW Hard Mode. Where in the world did you get the idea that everyone only forms Ursan?

And I just love how people use the same argument, which I broke down in an another thread.

Link: http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...251953&page=10

The Demand of Elitists
Energy Cost: 5 energy
Casting Time: 1 second
Recharge Time: 5 minutes
Elite Skill. For 1...12 months, 90% population of Guild Wars is not allowed to display any titles, and all the Hard Mode and elite areas can only be accessible by elite players. All the given skills will be nerfed to the extent where they will be useless, and all mobs will gain an additional 50 levels to prevent anyone from completing anything. When this skill ends, all Guild Wars players will quit.

Aren't we just glad we don't have something like this?

Because you use the same type of argument?

I know, and we just have to take out the only solution we have so far, which will prevent 50 other discrimination problems, and that really makes sense.

I wasn't even refering to you.

ursanway has already been around long enough for everyone to use it if they wanted. Those who have chosen to take advantage of it have already done so. Nerfing it now will only give those who took this advantage a place far ahead of the pack and set those behind them back even further...the damage has been done, just leave it...

You say "they don't have good builds and max equipment," I say "they're not good enough." This game does take a certain level of skill to complete successfully, that can't be denied.

All the people who have been against Ursan in this thread could care less about DoA, titles, and money and more about the game itself - so please don't label us "elitist."

Dont assume that people wanting PvE skills to be balanced are elitist.
I most certainly am not an elitist as I made clear before, I support many suggestions to open up the game through the removal of grind, 7 heroes etc.

But not wanting overpowered skills is not elitist.

Thats just wanting a balanced game and having the opinion overpowered skills have a negative effect on the game.

I can't believe so many people here don't care about balance. Wow. Just wow. So PVE balance doesnt matter just because you like UB? It doesnt matter that UB defeats the purpose of having a game with skill and build complexity? It doesnt matter that UB defeats the purpose of different professions since UB turns every profession into the same build and everyone plays the same button mashing build?

UB is completely out of place in GW, not just because it's overpowered but because it makes so much of what makes GW unique, pretty much pointless.

I just hope that GW2 doesnt introduce something like UB into the game. I'd like to think that most people that play the game do want SOME challenge and do want balance in the game, even if it is PVE.

I actually took the trouble to go back to the first page of this thread, and I found this.

I tried to believe you, but it isn't easy.

I never stated that you are an elitist. And my proposition here is really there are elitists who want to have all PvE skills removed, because they care about DoA or titles. I have never stated who else wants to have all PvE skills changed, removed or what so ever, and I have definitely not stated what kind of people they are. So what's wrong with my argument?

http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Bear_Form

Have fun.

I completely agree with you.

UB kills a lot of the game.

It would seem that is you.

Because it's a multiplayer game? Because whether I like it or not, I'm part of the GW economy? Because I strive to create good skillbars, and find it immensely annoying that I have to intentionally gimp myself, because whatever I do I will never be able to create a skillbar as good as an empty skillbar with Ursan?

I've got a 600 monk, and sure, the whole monk line could use a rebalancing. Still, I wouldn't take a 600 into DoA or anywhere where there's necros with Gaze of Contempt, or ritualists with Dissonance, or...

Very well, the ability to find non-ursan PUGs isn't completely lost. Everyone doesn't have GW:EN, and not everyone who do have yet realized that the best build for all areas in the game is 5 ursans and three monks, one of which carries quickening zephyr.
First of all: nerfing one ridiculously overpowered and game-breaking skill doesn't equal nerfing all skills in the game, or that 90% of players have to quit the game - that's just stupid. Also there's still plenty of ridiculously overpowered skills in the game, like Pain Inverter, they're just not as ridiculously overpowered as Ursan.

Second of all: I don't give a shit how much gold you have, if you want to wear butt-ugly FoW armor, or whichever pointless title you wish to display. It's absolutely of no interest to me. Grind away, farmboy, may your e-peen grow long and hard.

Third of all: let's try the reverse. Let's pretend ANet introduced a PvE skill which when used insta-killed all the mobs in the map and teleported their drops to you. Would you use it? Would you consider it overpowered? Could you see that this skill was bad for the game?

Yes, you were. I'm a PvE player opposed to Ursan.

Umm okay. What was your point there?

15 pages of people upset about tiny pixels under your name? in pve? really?.....wow, you all should go outside and see the sun. honestly...upset about pve titles? lol?

Like OMG? lol??? U r so cool becuz u told peopoles to go out and see the sun!!!! lolz!! Dey are such loosers!!! Roffle roffle! OMG dat is so original!!!111 Lollers!!!

But seriously, you coming in here to retardedly oversimplify the issue is pretty darn retarded. Heck, it's a flat out lie.

yeah....i guess i should get my priorities straight eh? i guess the way you play pve should be the way it is. because other people vanquish zones and gain titles SO interupt your game play? get over yourself and your titles. noone gives a damn whether your titleless or 35+ titles. and yes, if this is all that you have to worry about in life, as well as the others, have issues.

I have never said I wasn't an elitist, but the "elitist" I was refering care about DoA or titles, and at the same time, they want to have all PvE skills removed. As you can see, I have been defending PvE skills here, which I believe, has allowed discriminated professions to join PuG's. How in the world is that me?

Just because you bought Guild Wars and Guild Wars is a multiplayer game, it doesn't imply that you have the rights to choose what other players should play.

Wow what builds have you been playing with lately? As far as I know, there are a lot more builds out there that can out damage Ursanway, and the only reason people would use Ursanway for various areas is simple: they don't like to spend 3 hours into a task and end up failing. Ursanway is more or less an insurance; think about it, how many times do you get ditchers in a PuG?

You should read what other people who are against Ursan have been saying.

"An ad hominem argument consists of replying to an argument or factual claim by attacking or appealing to a characteristic or belief of the person making the argument or claim, rather than by addressing the substance of the argument or producing evidence against the claim. The process of proving or disproving the claim is thereby subverted, and the argumentum ad hominem works to change the subject."

Nice ad hominem argument here, but too bad it's fallacious.

It seems that you are another one of them who tries to use the exaggeration contrast to confuse the readers. The consequence of having an instant-killing skill is different than the consequence of having Ursan. If Ursan is truly a negative affection to the game, and it is more or less the so-called truth, which we all should know, why do we need these exaggerations to compare something far more worse than Ursan to prove that Ursan is a negative cause (if that's true)?

If you don't believe me, here's a similar argument that used this exaggeration:
Person A: You can't throw that basket-ball, because it's dangerous.
Person B: But it's only a ball.
Person A: Imagine if you have a nuclear missle instead, would you throw it? You wouldn't, because it's dangerous.

As we all know, throwing a basket-ball is not considered to be dangerous, but with the exaggeration used by person A in the given example, it seems that throwing a basket-ball is dangerous as well.

Ursan Blessing is really a skill invented from Norn's Bear Form. And I find it to be more overpowered as it is possible to combine actual skills with that skill. Knowing Norns will be the new race in Guild Wars 2, it is believed Bear Form will be there as well. Seeing how you have disliked Ursan so much and hoping to not see it in Guild Wars 2, I can only advice you to have fun.

What kind of argument is that? And you could say that you're arguing for others to play PVE the way you want to play the game as well just by entering this discussion.

I don't give a damn about titles, so stop bringing them up as if though everyone who thinks UB is bad for the game is only concerned about titles.

As I said I don't give a damn about titles. And quit with the personal attacks already. You're getting worked up over the game as well, so your insult can apply to yourself as well. Maybe you have issues if some discussion on a forum is what you worry about in life?

The Bear form in GW1 is a MONSTER SKILL. Have you not realized that monster skills are all overpowered compared to the skills we players can use? The monsters are supposed to be tougher and therefore have more powerful skills to make up for a lack of actual intelligent A.I.

Do you actually think that the current Bear form Monster skill is going to be the same for the players in GW2? Do you really want me to insult your intelligence and think that you believe that? Or maybe you're just reaching for straws here.

I have never stated Bear Form will be the same for players in Guild Wars 2. However, it is still uncertain what it will be like, but it doesn't mean that Bear Form cannot be overpowered in Guild Wars 2 or even be the same in Guild Wars. I just point out how such possibility still exists. Seeing how you hate Ursan so much and the fact you would want to attempt to insult my intelligence on a statement I have never stated, I'll apologize for bursting your bubble.

Oh THAT elitist.
Have you considered that he maybe just exists in your head?

No, but neither does it mean that I may not speak my mind about it.

You play ursanway, and you still haven't realized that what makes it godly isn't the damage, which is meh, but the damage mitigation?

Oh, so you DO realize that what makes Ursan godly is the damage mitigation. Why the strawman argument about so-so damage output then?

That they want PvE skills removed because they don't want anyone else to get the titles and wealth they got by using Ursan? You're right, I've not seen anyone say that.

Calling you a farmboy? It's not an ad hominem if it's true, and you do want ursan to farm titles and wealth, do you not?

You mean like the false analogy you used?

Ridiculous attempt at muddying the issue with wall of confused text removed.

Uh, no. It's plenty overpowered all on its own. Drunken master, Quickening zephyr etc skills which make it even more overpowered merely elevate it from ridiculous to surreal.

Actually I am of the belief that there will be nothing but fixed skill bars a la Ursan in GW2.
Then Guildwars will finally be a clone of Magic The Gathering, with each player an animated MTG card, all individual skill finally removed from the game, and I will be playing... well, whatever FPS is most popular at the time.

Right. I stated how I didnt want UB in GW2 and you link me to an entry of the Bear form and yet want me to believe you werent making any direct correlation to it. Riiiight.

And thanks for proving my point about our concerns about UB. If UB ends up in some form in GW2 like some of us fear, then this isnt just about titles as you and others keep trying to claim.

Then stop addressing UB naysayers as "all these elitist" as though we *all* want Ursan Blessing balanced for the same reason. The people who dislike Ursan Blessing because it allows people to get greens and rares faster are not the same people who want UB balanced because it harms the game.

And if you're not referring to me, why are you only referring to the one or two people in this thread, who have no point?

/facepalm.

You, COMPLETELY, misunderstood what he just said.

Check post 6 of this thread.

Are you certain that you are only speaking your mind about it?

When did I say I play Ursanway?

There are hundred of builds out there, and why do PuG's always request to have certain builds like SS Necro or SF Ele? It's because these builds have proven to work, and it is believed that people can be productive with them. It's the same with Ursan.

Read this thread again.

It's still an ad hominem argument even if it's true. And where in the world did you get the idea I would want to use Ursan to farm titles and wealth? I have been down in Random Arenas lately, and I guess that can be considered to be farming the Gladiator title, but I fail to see how it is possible to farm it with Ursan; care to explain? Secondly, there are hundreds of other ways to farm in the game, and I have been farming Fronis dungeon for gold. So how do I use ursan in that?

How is my analogy false?

I was basically saying how it can be more powerful if it is used with actual skills.

Good luck with that.

If I have never made the corresponding statement, how do you know if I would have such intention if it wasn't merely an assumption? How do you know if such assumption is correct?

I never addressed everyone who is against Ursan to be "elitists". Where in the world did you get that idea?

Why can't I refer to them? And how do you know I am only refering to one or two people in this thread? Last time I checked, you don't know as you made the following statement: All the people who have been against Ursan in this thread could care less about DoA, titles, and money and more about the game itself. That statement is false. Yes, I am using an ad hominem argument here, but it's non-fallacious, since the appeal is relevant.

Why should I care or even bother to reply to a fallacious ad hominem argument?

You're purposely acting difficult arent you? You DID make the statement and here it is:

The second taunting sentence is a clear indication that you believe the overpowered Bear Form will be in GW2. If you didnt believe it would be the same form, you'd have nothing to taunt me with. So nice try.

Oh and I see what you're doing in your posts. Answering a question with a question. Nice tactic.

I thought you practically NEED RANK TEN ursan to join ANY PuG these days...Ursan is a title-powered skill - people only concern about that title.
To me the person you quoted is quite stupid...

I'll try to make this simple for you.

"Ursan Blessing is really a skill invented from Norn's Bear Form. And I find it to be more overpowered as it is possible to combine actual skills with that skill. Knowing Norns will be the new race in Guild Wars 2, it is believed Bear Form will be there as well. Seeing how you have disliked Ursan so much and hoping to not see it in Guild Wars 2, I can only advice you to have fun."

"I have never stated Bear Form will be the same for players in Guild Wars 2. However, it is still uncertain what it will be like, but it doesn't mean that Bear Form cannot be overpowered in Guild Wars 2 or even be the same in Guild Wars. I just point out how such possibility still exists. Seeing how you hate Ursan so much and the fact you would want to attempt to insult my intelligence on a statement I have never stated, I'll apologize for bursting your bubble. "

Premisses:
1. Norns will be the new race in Guild Wars 2. (Line 3, Paragraph 1)
Conclusion:
1. Bear Form will be in Guild Wars 2 as well. (Line 3, Paragraph 1)

Premisses:
1. Bear Form will be in Guild Wars 2 (Previous Conclusion)
2. There is a clear relevance between Ursan Blessing and Bear Form (Line 1, Paragraph 1)
3. Bear Form can be even more powerful than Ursan if actual skills are used (Line 2, Paragraph 1)
4. It is uncertain what Bear Form will be like in Guild Wars 2. (Line 2, Paragraph 2).
Conclusion:
5. It is possible for Bear Form to be overpowered in Guild Wars 2.

Premisses:
1. It is possible for Bear Form to be overpowered in Guild Wars 2. (Previous Conclusion)
2. You dislike Ursan Blessing or something similar. (Line 4, Paragraph 1)
Conclusion:
1. There is a possibility for you to be upset in Guild Wars 2.

I have never indicated that I believe Bear Form will be overpowered in Guild Wars 2. I'm just stating that there's a possibility for it to be overpowered. There's a difference.

For one, there are very few people with this view, especially in this thread. Two, their arguments hold little water, hence why it's immensely frivolous and silly to argue with them.

You don't even know what that means. "Ad hominem," one of many logical fallicies, revolves around resorting to personal attacks or emotion. So no you are not using an "ad hominem" argument.

And again you are taking what I say *way* to literally, Divine. "One or two people" is mostly read as "a very small amount" or "a very small minority."

Because it isn't and is not in any way meant to be directed towards you?

English please so we can understand you.

Star Gazer like most of us are probably sick of you whiners going on about a PvE skill that anybody and everyone without restriction can use.

its not like its going to break the economy at all, when you have players using solo builds (without UB) and making a fortune.

So all i have to say is if you can not gain access to a team with Profession skills have UB at the ready..its called options.


wraithe

@DivineEnvoy: Quit trying to backpedal. You know you were in the wrong.

Wow. I was CLEARLY using net speak sarcastically and even spoke normally in the second paragraph. Everyone else understood that but I guess you're one of the slow ones.

What does that prove? Does any of that mean that it's not imbalanced? Can you answer this? What's the point in having a game like GW where the complexity comes from creating builds from hundreds of different skill when you have this one skill that's not only imbalanced but creates a build for you and turns every profession into the same stagnant build?

I bet you can't answer and would rather throw out strawman arguments and ad hominem attacks by calling people elitist, title whiners, etc etc.

Just looking through this thread, there's a clear distinction that one side of this issue isnt capable of getting their points across intelligently and instead just relies on attacking the person instead of talking about what's actually said.

We, that like to PuG in UW/FoW, don't have any options except for UB with 6 ursans + 2 monks or 5 ursans + 3 monks. I know you are too lazy to read whole thread, so just don't post and go play your Ursanway.

And stop saying that we are crying about balance in PvE, because A.Net's the one who TRIED to balance it before. Want to know what they nerfed because of PvE balance?

Protective Bond
Stoneflesh Aura
Mystic Regeneration
ofc most of Nightfall pve-only skills
Spirit Bond
Verata's Sacrifice
Ancestor's Visage
Sympathetic Visage
Angelic Bond
Shield of Absorption
Underworld (Nightmares)
Desert Crystal
3 chests in Witman's Folly
Drok's Run
The Deep
Armor stacking
Remain's of Sah-something

And none of those things were AS IMBALANCED as ursan. If they didn't care for balance, they wouldn't even touch those things, 'm I rite?

edit: Oh, forgot about loot scaling.

I think Abedeus hit the nail on the head then.

But I recall Protective Bond being nerfed due to a literally game-breaking bug.

A little birdie told me that Ursan is imba because anet would rather you buy the expansion than nerf something into oblivion and lose money.

I'd like to add in the "AOE nerf" aka. A.I. mobs running away from nukes.

I can't believe people ignored all the previous balancing in PVE. UB just makes no sense after all that work in balancing the game.

Damn Abedeous, how come we hadn't thought of all that before??? Well played indeed, sir.

Well, it wasn't really that much of a nerf... Monsters were idiots to stand in AoE and it was imbalanced. Elementalists had to learn how to use a snare/get a tank with one. But yeah, too many balances were made in the past to ignore Ursan now.

Let's be Lenon-like: Imagine GW Without Ursan.


Will the economy get better? No.

Will the discrimination vanished? No.

Will the button-mashing stop? No.

Will boredom go away? No.

Will people begin massive PUGGING again for camaraderie spirit? No.

Will it teach people to make better build and better player? No.

- Over two years without Ursan, and game was dominated by cookie-cutter build (which isn't exactly bad). But how many of the hundred of thousands, maybe millions, of people playing guildwars came up with an original build? 300 or 600 players (and Im being generous with the number)? That is 0.001 percent of 500,000 (we dont even have to consider million)? Are you part of these 300-600 people? That is, created a build that actually works and worth of note?

Ursan or no ursan, the problems of GW will remain. What next? Pain inverter? What next? All PVE-skills? Remove Titles? Remove HoM? Remove elite gloves and destroyer weapons? (You just took out over half the content of GWEN) What next? Kurzick/Luxon alliance skill? What next? Remove ritualist and assassin profession? Take out Urgoz/Deep? (just took out sizeable content of Faction) What next? Remove heroes? (just took out the heart of Nightfall content). What next? Ecto and UW/FoW?

So, in the end, what would be left? GW players would still be complaining of boredom, skill building skills, sucky pug, bad players and bad playing.

The way things are going, we are reducing everything to absurdity.

My take.



Abedeus: How would you "balance" Ursan? Remove it from the game? Or what? I guess this question is directed to all as well.