Ursanway ... vanquish PUG annoyance?

I'm just pointing out the fact that Anet sets the rules on what players can and can't do in this game. As far as I'm concerned, bots/gold sellers are not allowed according to EULA, while Ursan is allowed. In simple terms, such comparison is more or less just an exaggeration of using extreme bannable offends to enlarge the current situation. If Ursan is truly affecting the gameplay people have as you may believe, why hasn't Anet done anything, since this is the 20th thread that has been made about Ursan. Relevantly, if this is the truth, which many of us should be aware of, why would you even need to use an exaggeration in these arguments?

In all honesty, PvE is broken, and as we know, Ursan is just a temporary solution. With this said, I would appreciate anyone to make suggestions to make discriminated professions usable in PvE, but I would point out, many people do not have any solutions to give within these arguments, yet they want to take out the only solution we have so far. My point is, these people continue to claim that they care about the game and what not, but are they really just care about themselves, and their so-called elite status of accomplishing certain areas just because they are one of the less discriminated professions?

Again, you're not understanding what we're saying. If a person says "you can't complain about Ursan because you don't have to use it, hence it doesn't affect you," then that same person cannot complain about bots or about gold sellers - because they do not affect them. However, people do complain about it and do see it as a problem.

In other words, why is it okay for people to complain about bots and gold sellers (not about spammers, that's something different) but it's not okay if we complain about Ursan?

In terms of "helping undesired professions:" It doesn't help a whole lot in this regard because now you have to own a whole new $40 expansion. This applies to even the "wanted" professions. All in all, people still aren't playing how they'd like to, they're just seeing the content.

For me? It's wanting this game to not get shittier.

Again, you're not understanding what we're saying. Botting and gold selling is against the eula and ursan isnt.

maybe you need to read divines post more carefully

And because of that it impacts your gameplay?

Sheesh.... and I thought it was a cool thing to do leveling my Norn level. You know I totally understand where both viewpoints of Ursan Blessing are coming from. The thing is... well when I posted a thread about having 7 heroes in a party a topic came up about the fact that GW isn't a single player game and Anet actually wants to promote people playing eith each other.

It doesn't really relate to this but I'm just saying this is a form of people playing with eachother. I also say someone getting kicked out (or not accepted into) PUG's in elite areas because he didn't have a certain build. This way the less populair classes like mesmers and paragons can also take part in elite areas more easiley.

As far as I'm concerend there will always be different ways to play the game. This is definently one of them.

Then dont join teams but start them
Not sure about HM but I definately did DoA NM with 6 heroes and a friend, all 4 areas, several times


Hehe, mate, will you believe me If i say to you I currently have 40k in storage and 0 ectoes as well as 0 armbraces :-)

Ummm ... lol?

That L28-30 monsters is equal to L20 human in power. What ai makes up by numbers human makes up by having brain.

Ballance of PvE is simply made if precentages:

95% of players should be able to complete NM camplaign and quests, explore whole map.
80% of players should be able to complete all expert quests and mission bonuses in NM
75% of players should be able to vanquish campaing
70% of players should be able to do HM missions
50% of players should be able to do HM missions with bonuses
10-40% of players should be able to do elite area (depending on area)
5% of players should be able to do HM elite area.

When you have huge disconnect between planned percents and reall percents, it means one of theese:
* poor design a) (content is much easier/harder than intended with given skills when done with ordinary builds)
* poor design b) (game is much easier thanks to overspecialized build/game is impossible without overspecialized build)
* bad playerbase (majority has no idea on how2p; everyone knows how2p)

Monsters are there to provide "balance" - L20 monster is balanced for 95% of population, L30 is balanced for 5%.

When it does not work (monster supposed to be easy is actually hard and road blocker for average joe, it is time for nerfing/buffing, when monster supposed to be hard even for elite jim but it is joke for 95% of population, it is time for nerfing/buffing)

but why should only 5% be able to do this?

when you buy a game you expect to be able to do everything in it thats what you pay for. I guess anet should be handing out refunds in this case.

anet i want 5% of the game cost back for each elite area i have never been able to complete let alone attempt with a chance of completion

Your assumptions of percentage is unclear at best. Your assumption that there is a "plan percentage" and "real percentage" is not verifiable, if they exist at all. Even if they exist, the percentage reek of elitism.

Why would you want only "5%" or "10%" of the players to do certain areas? How would such percentage provide balance in the game? If 100% of player's base, not just "95%", manage to finish missions, quests, there is something wrong with the game? If "50%", not just "5%", is able to do HM Elite Missions, there is something wrong?

I appreciate abstract. But your abstraction is purely speculative and subjective. For purpose of argument, they stand on wobbly legs in relation to game balance.


BRYANT:

As I have said, URSAN is not a problem. It is a symptom, sign of something far deeper than a single skill. Your solution - taking out URSAN for good or for whatever degree of unusabiliy - wont solve whatever problems you attached to Ursan. Ursan is now just a convenient catch-all for all the frustration people have against GW. Take it out, and people will find another goat to blame. Or, just like the last Canthan festival, the pig got the poke.

If this game is getting shittier, it is because of old players. Where were the crusaders before this game became "shit"? Why were they not teaching people how to make "original and creative" builds, teach others of tactics and good play before Ursan came?

No matter how much mayonnaise you put in a chicken-shit salad, it is still chicken-shit.

Point is, GW1 is the salad gone spoiled. GW2 is the next salad, and we hope its NOT another manure.

Is this like playing like ring around the daisy? Or rosy?

My take.

First thing first, how does such balance affect your gameplay?

Generally speaking, let's look at the situation with person A and person B, where they are in separate instances. If person A accomplishes task C, person B is unaffected, because as we all know, we have different instances. Nonetheless, the only way I can see how person A would affect person B is the fact that person B actually believes that only certain people deserve to accomplish the given task. The truth is, this is no more than an opinion, and thus it should not have any effect to both players as they both purchased the game with their own money.

In this case, you are basically saying only a certain percentage of the population should be able to complete certain given tasks just because you believe this is a balance that's mandatory to the game. In simple terms, you are expecting Anet to restrict the areas the general population can play in just because you believe in such balance. This implies that you are more or less just an elitist, who wants to hold a certain title or accomplishment to himself. Sorry to burst your bubble; these titles and accomplishments don't even worth a cent to anyone else but yourself. My point is, if you have to be in a competition with other people to find enjoyment to your progress of gaming, even knowing that such competition never existed, what's really the point?

Consequently, this reminds me of the days of early release of Factions, where this guild had control over Cavalon. I still remembered the rumors about this guild kicking its members for not farming Luxon factions fast enough. And whenever someone else asks for a ferry, the members within this guild would reply that no one else is worthy to play in The Deep like them. Later, another guild came and took over Cavalon. They ferried people into The Deep for free, and many of us appreciated that. I believe they are remembered upto this day as they ended the dictatorship of Cavalon. Relevantly, what's the difference between people like you and the members of the former guild that controlled Cavalon?

Anet, i want 95% of cost back because other areas bore me.

see what i did there?

Will all the seriousness: why dont you demand refund because you never got rare skin x? you paid for RIGHT to have it, correct? Thus if game does not give it to you, you were scammed.

Quest too hard? Get 5 cents from anet back! Those scammers, you should be able to do every signle quest, you paid for it!.

OMG, you dont have maxxed gold storage? surely, you must have everything in game, you paid for damn thing: get refund, because anet failed to provide you with enough gold!

---

GrimEye:

Actualy, my percentages are (imho) quite correct. A big number of player percentage never completes campaign. They either just cant or loose drive or dont have fun doing it. Saying that 5% of players never complete game is quite underestimation.

Those precentages are not about barriers: they are also about having fun (those 5% areas are not designed to be fun for huge percentage of population - they would frustrate it, thats why they dont see bigger percents, but when they )

Also, those "for 5%" areas have one important feature: they make up for fact that they are only challenging part of game for those 5%. ...

You get general population which has 95% of game to play in (because tiny portion is frustrating) and is content with it.
Then you get "elite" population which only has 5% of game to play in (because rest of game is boring) and is content with it.

The way i see it, elitists actually loose out in this equation. There is pretty much no point in taking THAT away.

ursan haters just QQ more. cuz the thing is people are getting the same rewards you "worked hard for" by just using ursan. just pwned imo

Well a quick thanks for Bryant deffending my points while I was asleep

And yes you did miss pretty much all the points in my post Divine, ill try and reply to what you said though.

Thats because you are viewing balance here as X must = Y

In PvE this obviousely cant work when the player is "better" than the AI.
So you need to give the AI some form of advantage.

It becomes X = Y+Z.

Its balanced because the AI team becomes a challenge, not because both teams are at the same level.

Did I say it was the only thing that had an effect?
Just because other things can doesnt suddenly make the point dissapear.

This is the one where you miss the point big time.

By that logic if cheating wasnt mentioned in the EULA it would be ok right?

Why do you think things are put into the EULA? Because Anet figures it would be funny? Or because if it was allowed it would have a negative effect on the game?

Just because something isnt in the EULA however doesnt mean it doesnt have a negative effect on the game. I think you can see from how many people are against UB in its current form that more than a few people think it has a negative effect on the game.

Because that sort of thing is required to make it a challenge, HM isnt meant to be balance. Its meant to be a challenge.
If the AI team had to work within the same limits as a player it would lose every single time because its AI controlled v player controlled.

To make it balanced in NM and a challenge in HM the AI needs an advantage.
As I said before balance in PvE is not X = Y.

Because the AI will never be able to play at the same level as a team of players.
The AI cant change its build.
etc

The player will always have an advantage and so it needs to be balanced out with an advantage for the AI.

Are you saying a runner is overpowered? That a runner makes killing AI teams far to easy?

All running does is let players skip parts of the game they dont enjoy.
Overpowered skills kill game balance by making it to easy.

Its hardly the same thing.

Right because thats quite obviousely the same as rewarding power based on time spent grinding.

The quality of your team is an outside factor. You cant grind a better team. You cant buy a better team.
Your teams skill is based on the skill of the players and how they work together.

And at which point am I dictating? Just like you im here giving my opinion.
My opinion is UB is overpowered.
My opinion is that overpowered skill are bad for the game.
My opinion is that things that are bad for the game are bad.

Do you really believe that a mesmer for example plays as a mesmer so they can play as a frontline melee char?

In my opinion UB doesnt allow unwanted proffesions to play more. It just turns them into another proffesion.

It doesnt make mesmers more wanted in PvE. It just lets them turn into a frontline char.
It doesnt make different team builds wanted, it just makes it irrelevant.

It removes any skill required from the game. As long as you have the time to grind UB you can go ahead and never have a challenge again.

Well let me ask you a question.

How do bots effect you?
How do gold sellers effect you?
How does people cheating effect you?

Please note an answer here of, they are against the EULA doesnt work. That doesnt explain how it effects you.

By what you are saying it doesnt effect you.
Because what they do ingame doesnt effect you right?

If they dupe some rare item that doesnt effect you does it?
If they have a bot to farm an area that doesnt effect you right?
If they use an exploit to ensure they always win that doesnt effect you.

Im fairly sure that you do think that effects you, and guess what? It does.
So does having an overpowered skill.

Just because it happens in their own instance doesnt stop it effecting others, this is an online game.
Other players effect each other.

You understand the amount of guilds that ONLY play UB? And req you to have a high rank...
Like PuGs, surprisingly...

This has been said before but I'll repeat it once more...

Skills are never a problem, its how people use those skills.


Players have always demanded in PuG's and some Guilds that players run certain builds from necros using MM or Wars with Obsidian Flesh, now its Ursan Blessing.

Must we nerf every skill in the game to stop OTHER people from using builds we do not like????

Np Isileth : P I do what I can.

I never asked to remove Ursan. And what is this "symptom" you speak of? Could you elaborate a bit on this?

Nonetheless, it does little to "fix" anything. People are still not playing as they want, and people are still not getting into groups. UB in its current state does more harm than good.

They were off playing the game the way they wanted to, just like everybody else.

That's not the only part of the problem, though. It's also how UB lowers the difficulty of any situation significantly. Me and my friends are very good buildmakers, but our creativity can rarely hold a candle to the power and simplicity of Ursanway.

But could it at least be helped with a balance to UB, or should we give up on GW1 altogether? Keep in mind that it will still exist far after GW2 is released.

lol I can understand some peoples annoyance when a thread like this is made, i made one only 4 weeks ago

- Ironically the only way you're going to achieve this is by building a game of grind, because time spend is the only variable in which people differ as far as computer games go. You see why this game is not chess? You're not playing on even field against even opponent, you never could be. AI is just pathetic. Besides you have full build synergy of 8 people, what does AI have? Less than full groups of 1-4 different professions, each monster with about 3 skills in bar. You can change your skillbars if it doesn't work, AI can't. You can share the knowledge in Internet, AI can't.

Yours is just a strawman argument that comes from childish fixation that what is branded "elite" should be only for "elite". First you'd have to define what exactly is this "elite".

That's if you consider "playing and learning the game" to be grind. If you do, then how do you enjoy games?

The challenge of Guild Wars is not "playing your build well" but trying to put together the best team build for the area you plan to go in. You have to take in account that you'll encounter this group of baddies and that group of baddies, and make sure that your team build doesn't conflict in their favor.

And if the AI is so easy, why do people still have trouble in certain areas, or with certain monsters? It's obviously a bit more complex that what we think.

(you need correct definition of strawman btw. It is refuting argument by refuting something different and claiming you refuted orignial point. It is not explaining your point.)

Fine, if Time wins, replicate "Mallyx With Heroes" ... ups, you cant. Many people tried and could not, even if they 100% followed builds and strategy from that thread.

It was because they didn't have what it took to run that successfully.

If you check out forum section about campaigns, you see that quite few people complain there that they cannot complete X, and that X is usually very varied, from quests to vanquishing certain area.

Moreover, i know person which started GW 2 months ago. Now he is happily vanquishing. Doing feats that many oldtimers find impossible or on edge of their abilities.

Pure Skill > Time

Your "grind" format puts all those percentages to 100% - everyone can do everything by simply grinding long enough.

It is one of backbones of pro-ursan movement: people who spent lots of time ingame still could not beat everything. Ursan gives them ability to make that time spent matter. (IMO)

- Games are meant to be fun. Some people consider grinding fun, others don't (logically true since there are loads of games that feature almost nothing but grindmill, but still have active playerbase). In Guild Wars all grinding is optional and thus satisfies both groups of players. I think that's how it should be. If grind can be avoided while still preserving replay value of games, I'll be all ears to hear it. Lack of endgame content was a serious problem previously, some might say it still is.

- They are using bad builds or are underleveled with non-max items. Think success based on this algorithm:

Chance to win = (X1*Y1 + X2*Y2 + ... + Xn*Yn)/n

where
Xn = how well you do the trick n (0...1)
Yn = how important the trick n is (0...1)

Let's take a GvG example: caster who never swaps weapons in game might be in top 100 team with fairly good performance. His skill in weapon swapping is 0, but also the importance of weapon swapping is fairly low. If he would swap weapons every time, the team would win say 1.25% more games than they're winning. Team's wins are likely because they understand nuances of splitting and VoD tactics, which have great impact on games (and on the other hand facing team that don't understand them).

- Like you're blaming UB for PvE not being about skill, when it never was in the first place?

- If person can't read, it's very likely because he has not been taught to read. With proper instructions everyone can complete all of PvE even without Ursan.

- Well that's the joke: not everyone will grind so much to reach the max level, which creates these tiers. Maybe I was wrong to say that only grind can create tiers, since reading/not reading builds on wiki and asking/not asking advice creates them too.

Ursanway is a Double-Edged skill.

I think it was introduced for allowing The Unwanted PvE Profesisons for playing with groups and then ``improve´´ the PUG experience. What is the problem? Anet designed the skill with too much potential, obviosuly for been used by the Unwanted, but The Wanted Ones started to use the skill....and that is why is there this UB problem.

And no, Anet will not nerf UB. Monsters don´t say ``lammers´´

They should nerf it. Cause its getting boring....

-.o

Well....KS2 Mod improves my Ursan Experience

The problem is while the grind is optional, if you choose not to do it you end up weaker than those that do.
I could live with grind if it gave no advantage (I would still prefer it to be no grind at all but it wouldnt be as bad), but when you start linking power to grind you kill skill>time.

So while advantaged remain tied to grind its not going to be ok with those who enjoy skill>time gameplay.

Ursan is crutch to propped up classes that are "discriminated".

This discrimination is brought about by great major misstep: a flawed character development of profession in Faction and Nightfall, and their vaguely-defined function in PVE and PVP structure in GW world. Most characters in Faction and Nightfall are just "muggle blood" of the core profession: Ritualist (E/Mo), Assassin (E/W), Paragon (W/R), and Dervish (W/Mo).

Here is one of a good thread to read as an example of my contention: Assassins and Ritualists. A long read, with usual intense emotions, but a great exchange of insight.

The second ill of GW is: there is just too many skill to juggle, that one tweak of one skill may set off domino effect of abused or disused. One innocent change may become "uber" with certain combo skill.

All these underdevelopment and unclear-defined roles created a culture of bias.

Its embarrassing to quote myself but I dont want to reword my thought. To further embarrassed myself, let me quote more:


You know why greens and golds and minipets prices will go nowhere but down? Because the GW game structure has no way to "sink" them. The pig exchange last Canthan festival is a "stop-gap" sink system that should have been part of the system long ago.

Ursan is just a crutch. GW2 is the ultimate solution. ANET did many good thing in GW1. But we just hope ANET learned from their mistakes.

My take.

The problem is it doesnt.

Yes it might let them get in a group. But not as their class, but as UB.

I know I have chars like a mesmer because I dont want to be playing as a frontline on that char, I do that on my other chars.
UB does not make mesmers (or any of the other unwanted proffesions) more wanted, it simply lets them become an overpowered frontline char.

Ok, Isileth. Suppose there is no ursan, and we are still in the "good old days" DoA.

Do you think a Ritualist, Assassin, Mesmer, Dervish, and Paragon can even "get in" and "play at all" in party with normal pugging meta-build in DoA? If you take out Ursan, what "meta-build" do you think would dominate DoA?

Its just a kettle and a pot calling each other black. It just happens there is now more pots.

My take.

- Why is this an ethical concern, if you can kill monster in 5 seconds or 2 seconds? Preserving status quo for three years in computer game is pretty dubious goal. You all sound like crime has been done, but in reality viability of all old builds in PvE has not changed at all, because the areas haven't changed. If anything making DoA accessible by reducing difficulty of monsters has opened up new possibilities. Most people want to be as powerful as possible and they are happily using UB, TNTF, SY, Pain Inverter and others. I don't believe for a second that they are forced to do it.

- I wish GvG meta was still Charge Warriors and Boonprots, but unfortunately the game changes. Speaking of skill>time that is meant for PvP. It's not plausible claim that every PvE character should be equally inept in vein of socialism, and this is held as some kind of positive value? Rubbish.

It's extremely important for PvP to not be about grind and ANET has consistently defended this point throughout the course of game. I don't understand your argument at all to be honest.

- Most of the skillbalances izzy makes make no sense whatsoever. Why Troll Unguent needed buff in duration instead of horrible casting time of three seconds (same as Ether Feast previously)? Why did Power Leak have to be nerfed to laughable 1...4 energy loss and still have 10 energy cost? I've come to realize that Izzy doesn't either understand anything about skill balance and what makes skills good/bad or just doesn't care to fix them properly.

Well answer me this, if there was a skill that killed everything in radar range would you use it?
Now regardless of that answer lets assume you dont, lets say you find that terribly boring. How would you feel about others being able to use it?

This is an online game, what others do does effect you.
People will start grouping only with people who choose to use said overpowered skill.
Those using it would make money faster, prices would rise even faster yet those who dont use it dont gain anymore money.

And also, the game should be balanced. It shouldnt be up to the players to make it balanced by not using skills. Because there will always be those who want to be the best regardless of how, thats why you have those who cheat and use exploits etc.


No thats not just for PvP.
Quite clearly on the GW box it states

"You'll prove your worth with every battle as skill, not hours played, decides your fate. Whether battling horrific monsters or competing at the highest levels of tournament play, it will always be your skill that earns you victory or defeat."

I also dont think everyone should be equal. Skill should be the factor in who is the better player, not who has spent the most time grinding a title.
It also shouldnt be about who chooses to use an overpowered skill and who doesnt, that choice shouldnt be there. The game should be balanced, however when thats not possible there at least shouldnt be anything as extreme as UB.

I dont know how Izzy does his job, but I dont want to be in his shoes.

Just too many skills to watch over and too many people in the GW community to look over your shoulder for various over-reaction from both sides of the fence. One guy with millions eyeing him with unforgiving pitbull tenacity. I just can't imagine the pressure.

I hope he has a celestial pig to make his job worth the while.

Ah blame Izzy time again. People seem to not notice he is just one member in a team of people...

I never said the point should be vanished, just the fact with the existence of thousands of other farming builds, an argument that tells us Ursan is affecting the price of items just seems too weak to even be used.

First of all, cheating is mentioned in EULA unless you were refering to some other methods of cheating, if so, please specify.

EULA is more or less just a set of rules set by Anet to ensure their game will go in a certain direction. These are the rules players have to follow. In simple terms, just because you don't like a certain skill, and you don't plan to use it, it does not mean that everyone else should not use it. From the way I see it, just because you believe that Ursan is a negative affection to the game, it doesn't mean everyone else sees it that way. You are continue to claim Ursan to be a form of cheating or negative affection to the game, but you have yet to provide any reasons or supports to these claims. Nonetheless, my point here is, despite the fact your claims have no supports or what not, such rule is not justified to be followed by everyone just because you believe so.

Secondly, as far as I can tell, there are only a few people complaining about Ursan, and they just won't stop posting in these threads.

So you are saying making a certain profession more worthless and discriminated in the game is your definition of making the game challenging? It is clearly shown that you play a less discriminated profession, and you have no idea what the average Ritualist or Mesmer players have gone through.

The term, run has been evolved to the point where players will do any Hard Mode mission or Hard Mode dungeon at a cost of price. CoF runs are a good example of it. So how is this different?

That is the time spent on grinding to get people on your buddylist. And secondly, quality of a team is not an outside factor; you can hire people to be on your team, who can be more experienced into the game. It is also possible to leech a close friend or guildie who is more experienced to complete a certain mission or task. How are these different?

There's a difference between stating one's opinion to how Ursan is overpowered and can be a negative affection, and one's dictatorship to tell people not to use Ursan at all or deems it as they are commiting a crime.

Do you really believe Mesmers have always been playing a Mesmer for the last two years, or were most of them Fast Cast Nukers? Do you really believe Mesmers get to play at all for the last two years?

If you really insist on allowing unwanted professions to play more, do you have a solution?

In all honesty, as a Mesmer before the release of Ursan, the only challenge I see in PvE was the fact that people believed Mesmers of being useless, and I can't get in PuG's because of it. If you really want to challenge yourself, make a Mesmer today.

Having an overpowered skill that's made by the game company itself doesn't equal to botting, selling golds, and hacking. I am aware of the fact that these factors affect my gameplay, but I'm still not convinced why you won't just say how Ursan affects my gameplay, which is the case at this point.

If this is the sort of affection you were talking about, I don't believe any solution can be made to satisfy you.

I would run an assassin build if people let me. Except if you haven't noticed, aside from ursan groups, assassins don't get to join groups for almost any elite area. Is there something wrong with wanting to finish the game on my primary character? Yes, even if it means I'll be playing as a melee bear instead of a melee assassin, because at least I'll BE ABLE to go there. Just because you play a profession that is accepted in groups for pretty much any area doesn't mean its easy for others to do the same.

So what's skills? Being able to click with better precision and speed because of the computer/mouse/screen/internet connection/whatever you have? The ability to use the same skill bar as a few thousand other people? Be it one skill or a full skill bar, its still the same thing. So you say people aren't equal in their ability to breeze through the game. Then how does the introduction of UB affect you? Because in your view you're still more skilled than they are, regardless of if this skill exists or not. How does the introduction of UB affect your OWN PERSONAL VIEWS on who is a better player? The people that have to use UB would still be viewed by YOU as a worse player regardless if there was UB or not. Aside from maybe titles that no one really looks at, its just your ego that's showing here.

Also, define balanced. Given that all the professions were designed for different purposes to begin with, what determines balance? Giving every profession the ability to 1v1 against any other profession? 2v2? 4v4?
There is no such thing as balance.
When an area can be designed such that groups of any mixed profession can clear it in the same amount of time, then we can talk about 'balance'.
Like that'll ever happen.

You are totally and completely missing the point here.

I am not saying its cheating and that it should be banned. Im saying its overpowered and it should be brought inline with other skills.

My comments as to cheaters and such was in response to people saying them using it doesnt effect others. Thats the link, that what one player does can effect another. Not that UB is against or should be against the EULA.

Well from my view I see quite a lot who have a problem with it.

Also in these cases it shouldt be a case of more people like it so its fine or more people hate it so lets change it.

(Please note numbers here randomly picked just for an example)

You shouldnt look at it and say, well 60% of people think UB is fine lets keep it.

You look at it and say, 40% of people arent happy with it. How do we make it so more than 60% are happy with it.


It shouldnt be viewed as UB v No UB. But rather how to make more people happy with the game.

I have both a Rit and a mesmer. So quite obviousely it doesnt clearly show anything.

But I know as both a Rit and mesmer that when playing as those proffesions I want to play as that proffesion.
When I want to play as a frontline I go and grab one.
When I want to play as an ele I go do that.

I would obviousely love to see a way to make such proffesions more wanted, but I would want to see those proffesions more wanted. Not a way to turn them into another proffesion.

Are you seriousely suggesting playing with people good at the game is the same as using an overpowered skill?

I really dont think I need to bother discussing that point anymore.

And I am not doing the latter.

All im saying is that in my opinion is its overpowered and that I would like to see it balanced.
Im hardly going round and punishing or forcing people to not use it. Im simply stating my opinion and discussing my points and views on the subject.

So the soloution is to make an overpowered skill that all proffesions can use?

Even as a player who plays with the less wanted proffesions I would much rather see them be less wanted than have UB in game.

Now ideally I would like to see them changed in some way that makes them wanted, without going down the UB route of making something so powerful that not taking it is stupid.

You again miss the point. I am not saying using UB is equal to cheating or botting.

It was used because people said that using UB didnt effect others, so I countered by asking why people are against cheating and botting if what someone else does doesnt effect them.

As for saying how it affects you gameplay, I and many others have.
But you and others have said that it doesnt, hence the reason the question about cheating, botting etc was used.

Well I disagree with both statements there.

1) What other people do ingame does effect others.

This is where the question about cheating and botting was used. And ill ask it again since you didnt answer before.

If people using UB doesnt effect others...
How does botting?
How does using exploits?
How does gold selling?

Because according to you it doesnt matter if one player has an advantage or not, it doesnt effect the other player.

2) Im not an elitist.

How do you get from me suggesting a skill is overpowered to being elitist?

Im not at all suggesting areas should be kept locked away from common folk. What I am suggesting is that there shouldnt be overpowered skills.

As it is I find UB to be quite elitist, in that people seem to agree that only those who spend the time grinding deserve access to it.


Infact on me being elitist if you check some of my other posts you will see I support many suggestions to remove grind from parts of the game to open it up to more casual players, to allow 7 heroes so more areas become accessible and again casual players can try the harder areas when they dont have the time to form a team of players etc.

Im very much against the game being elitist or areas being locked away from casual players.

But the soloution is not to make an overpowered skill that makes the whole game stupidly easy. Sure it gives them access but it hurts the game a lot more while doing so.

Umm ..lol back at you.

You're comparing apples and oranges. You're comparing having a brain to having a much higher level; which is if u think about it quite a comical comparison.

What's balanced in your opinion might not be balanced to others, hence the impossiblity of true balance in PvE.

Funny, just the other day (make it two months ago) i was LFGing in doa with most powerful PvE profession (paragon atm) ... yet noone there even attempted to add me to party because i was not having U on my bar and. Pretty much any char i run would net me kick from elite groups ... be it ursans or tankways, yet i run top grade builds that get me wins.

Just because average pug does not want you in party means that it is impossible or that you are genuinely unwanted. It means that you are spared bad pug experience with "must have obsi tank!" noobs and possibly blessed with group that knows how much armor ignoring DPS can sin make.

If, of course, you can run good Sin. For me most problems that i have had with unwanted classes were people who chose to play them yet didn't know how to play them and did stuff like FC deathly swarm spam.

Most problems with elite areas are solved by l2p and joining guild that did l2p too. Your profession is irrelevant.

Allow me to scream it once more at the top of my lungs:

Give serious buffs to the Sunspear and Kurzick/Luxon PvE skills of the "discriminated" professions (Rit, Mesmer, Sin...) and restrict them to their primary professions.



No need for Ursan craziness to make Mesmers wanted.

Ursan is simply more proof that the devs have lost all ambition with Guild Wars.

Let's hope they're keeping all the good stuff for Guild Wars 2.



It just hurts seeing a game that was once brilliant and innovative turn so damn... average.

"An enthymeme is any argument in which one or more of the core propositions (the premisses or the conclusion) is not stated explicitly, but is merely assumed implicitly as part of the argument."

In all honesty, I cannot read your mind, and thus I cannot predict what premisses or conclusion you have assumed implicitly as part of the argument. In other words, I didn't really miss your point, but instead, you have not stated it explicitly. This argument is more or less just a quarrel, which you can keep coming back and attempt to defend your argument by claiming that others have missed your point, in which you have not initialized in the first place.

I admire your persistence, and I have to say, I wouldn't mind a buff to those skills for a change to Ursan, but the problem is, will the elitists approve of this? As far as I know, they want all the PvE-only skills to be removed, because they don't want other people to touch DoA or Hard Mode titles.