[Dev Update] Exploits and Bans – 10 January 2008 - Guild Wars Guru archive powered by Guild Wars Legacy

Lonesamurai

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Apr 2006

Cheltenham, Glos, UK

Wolf Pack Samurai [WPS]

R/A

14 Jan 2008 at 15:02 - 1921

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcanemacabre

Really, this is more about a deterrent than a punishment. The next time someone stumbles upon an exploit, they will think twice about trying to profit from it, and will be more inclined to send a support ticket or post it on the forums instead.

No they won't, you know that as well as i do, because people are both stupid and greedy in nearly equal measure

and anyway to get ahead of others in a game with no hierachy will be used

FeroxC

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Mar 2006

EOA

P/W

14 Jan 2008 at 15:06 - 1922

Duncan = Bank owner leaving the doors unlocked and thieves wondering in.

Mallyx = Some guy drives a truck into the banks wall then the thieving hoardes move in.

You understand the difference ?

jeesuss89

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Jun 2007

Sydney, Australia

117

Me/

14 Jan 2008 at 15:14 - 1923

Quote:

Originally Posted by FeroxC

Duncan = Bank owner leaving the doors unlocked and thieves wondering in.

Mallyx = Some guy drives a truck into the banks wall then the thieving hoardes move in.

You understand the difference ?

You're saying that we should drive a truck into A-Net headquarters??? And that would be considered a hack??? Maybe if the driver was blind, coz' he'd have no idea where to look, and I'm sure no-one had an idea where this place was or even existed (except an a-net employee or someone mistakenly found it), so where would a hack begin to look??? Comparing a banker who leaves his doors open to a bug is ludicrous in the first place. Banks still have vaults which SHOULD be locked, in this case have been left wide open, and the bank has the customer to answer to when they wanna know where there money is.

high priestess anya

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Nov 2007

14 Jan 2008 at 15:14 - 1924

all of you guys are acting like kids...
the point they are trying to say is that mallyx and duncan are two of the same, the only difference being is proffitability..

you can scream "hack" all you want. they thought it was a bug, just like duncan..so if you are one of the guys who have done duncan you sure as hell would have done this.
leave these guys alone and let them have they say for gawds sake

RTSFirebat

The Humanoid Typhoon

Join Date: May 2005

UK

Servants of Fortuna [SoF]

R/

14 Jan 2008 at 15:17 - 1925

No...

Again it is not the same, they got to this hidden outpost via hacking the client, not via a oversight bug like the Duncan ferrying.

high priestess anya

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Nov 2007

14 Jan 2008 at 15:17 - 1926

Quote:

Originally Posted by FeroxC

Duncan = Bank owner leaving the doors unlocked and thieves wondering in.

Mallyx = Some guy drives a truck into the banks wall then the thieving hoardes move in.

You understand the difference ?

how much profit do you make from duncan runs?
as far as im aware you can just run right up to him and kill him, end of quest..
19k per run ...driving a truck into a bank....jeez you got a wierd imagination
REGARDLESS
defend this..
duncan and mallyx are two of the same "breach in agreement"
just different severities

also would like to say that plaync have not brushed me off and keep responding to my tickets fairly quickly.
to all those who ARE innocent keep at it

Aiden Arcana

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Nov 2006

Germany

Eazy Bake Oven [loli]

Mo/E

14 Jan 2008 at 15:19 - 1927

Why dig a hole searching for treasure when you don't have a map? Meaning if someone should happen to hack the .DAT file, how would they even know what to look for, if it didn't exist? Someone would have to KNOW for a FACT that it existed, and who would know that information? An Anet employee COULD have been the culprit. If someone can get into the FBI and was a Russian spy, then its obvious someone could get into Anet employment that shouldn't be there. Chew on that for a while, its delicious.

FeroxC

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Mar 2006

EOA

P/W

14 Jan 2008 at 15:20 - 1928

Quote:

Originally Posted by jeesuss89

You're saying that we should drive a truck into A-Net headquarters??? And that would be considered a hack??? Maybe if the driver was blind, coz' he'd have no idea where to look, and I'm sure no-one had an idea where this place was or even existed (except an a-net employee or someone mistakenly found it), so where would a hack begin to look??? Comparing a banker who leaves his doors open to a bug is ludicrous in the first place. Banks still have vaults which SHOULD be locked, in this case have been left wide open, and the bank has the customer to answer to when they wanna know where there money is.

I was trying to illustrate the difference for you as your obviously don't understand any of the technical aspects but i guess you were too thick to even understand that.

Trub

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Mar 2006

Sitting in the guildhall, watching the wallows frolic.

Trinity of the ascended [SMS]+[Koss]+[TAM]=[ToA]

14 Jan 2008 at 15:20 - 1929

Quote:

Originally Posted by high priestess anya

all of you guys are acting like kids...
the point they are trying to say is that mallyx and duncan are two of the same, the only difference being is proffitability..

you can scream "hack" all you want. they thought it was a bug, just like duncan..so if you are one of the guys who have done duncan you sure as hell would have done this.
leave these guys alone and let them have they say for gawds sake

Anya..I'm saddened you aren't grasping the purpose of a forum.
You make a statement, an opinion..an ideal...people respond.
Forums are like that.
As for any one having 'their say.'
Quite honestly..alot of the (117) have literally buried themselves here, on this forum, with their accounts on how many times they 'actually' went in to 'farm' for gems, and ONLY got 1-5 armbraces.
Please, continue to submit tickets to support..but don't scold forumers for trying to understand what the banned are really trying to say here.(Many are actually KIDS)

high priestess anya

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Nov 2007

14 Jan 2008 at 15:22 - 1930

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trub

Anya..I'm saddened you aren't grasping the purpose of a forum.
You make a statement, an opinion..an ideal...people respond.
Forums are like that.
As for any one having 'their say.'
Quite honestly..alot of the (117) have literally buried themselves here, on this forum, with their accounts on how many times they 'actually' went in to 'farm' for gems, and ONLY got 1-5 armbraces.
Please, continue to submit tickets to support..but don't scold forumers for trying to understand what the banned are really trying to say here.

yeah shame really...
i seem to be the only one taking both accounts into consideration and posted unbiased comments..unlike yourself and many others
edit: no offence thou i have seen some good valid posts from you but please stop taking sides...they know they did wrong and ok they are trying to bring up other issues which are similar..you have to understand that feel this ban is unjust and unfair which imo is kinda severe. im fairly sure stripping them of all their titles and in game items/money/mats etc plus a 4 month ban would have the same effect

FeroxC

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Mar 2006

EOA

P/W

14 Jan 2008 at 15:25 - 1931

Anya the key problem here is: It's your word VS Anet - they say it was a client side hack and you say it was a bug. You can't blame ppl for taking Anets side.

garethporlest18

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jan 2006

[HiDe]

W/

14 Jan 2008 at 15:26 - 1932

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abnaxus

- HoS runs
This was not an exploit, it was simply the easiest dungeon in game, the way it was designed allowed players to run through it with no effort and easily kill the boss.
Then A.net redesigned the dungeon and give it a difficulty level comparable with some others.

Um you're way off mark with this one. HoS runs didn't have people using weapons or even attacking, what they did was use the barrels from the dude to kill everything. Anet has it setup so you can sit there and spam them. So we didn't have to use any skills or attacks, just have 8 people spam barrels to kill everything.

Also Anet didn't re-design anything. They made it so the doors only open if you kill the group near them, which isnt' any different. I think they fixed the barrel rate though so it's no longer spammable. Dungeon is still quite easy regardless.

Trub a lot of these forumers aren't trying to understand anything, some like to resort to personal attacks or close to. Some that should know better than to do that. I say that they aren't trying to understand because they've been told numerous times and ignore it.

Ferox no need for personal attacks.

Aiden I really dont' think that's what happened here.

Trub

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Mar 2006

Sitting in the guildhall, watching the wallows frolic.

Trinity of the ascended [SMS]+[Koss]+[TAM]=[ToA]

14 Jan 2008 at 15:27 - 1933

Quote:

Originally Posted by high priestess anya

yeah shame really...
i seem to be the only one taking both accounts into consideration and posted unbiased comments..unlike yourself and many others

You would be surprised how many of my posts were deleted by the mods here...

But, really guys and gals..
This forum is for discussion on a GAME.
It isn't real life.
ANet is going thru the logs of those that say they were wrongly banned.
Flaming on both sides isn't very productive...and remember..many here are just kids.
No one here can re open the accounts, we can't beg your cause to support...that is your responsibility.
Otherwise..keep trying..but for gawds sake..spamming their support team will not help you.

high priestess anya

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Nov 2007

14 Jan 2008 at 15:28 - 1934

Quote:

Originally Posted by FeroxC

Anya the key problem here is: It's your word VS Anet - they say it was a client side hack and you say it was a bug. You can't blame ppl for taking Anets side.

and yet you scold the guys who thought it was the same thing as duncan which tbh is EXTREMELY LIKELY given the nature in which it WASNT dealt with .
dont class them as the hackers.
most of these guys are my friends who i enjoyed playing with. ok i am not defending them because what they did was wrong but to put them in the same boat as the original hacker is just plain wrong
stereotyping is a mistake only a child would make

btw the duncan glitch was an exploit...as people where gaining from an in game glitch..refer to previous threads for the definition of exploit

Aiden Arcana

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Nov 2006

Germany

Eazy Bake Oven [loli]

Mo/E

14 Jan 2008 at 15:30 - 1935

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trub

Quite honestly..a lot of the (117) have literally buried themselves here, on this forum, with their accounts on how many times they 'actually' went in to 'farm' for gems, and ONLY got 1-5 armbraces.

We are fighting for justice, I know people who got at least 16 ambraces from this, and I didn't get 1 ambrace. We both got perma-banned. Is that REALLY fair? Since we are comparing this to real world situations. Person one kills 16 people intentionally, person b commits manslaughter. Should the punishments be the same? No and while both DID harm someone, there were serious differences in the crimes at hand.

FeroxC

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Mar 2006

EOA

P/W

14 Jan 2008 at 15:31 - 1936

If your right and this problem originated as nothing but a programming error(bug).
Then Anet lied in a public announcement, which i find hard to believe.Im not stereotyping you as hackers, i believe there was 1 hacker and hundreds of oppertunists with warped morals.

high priestess anya

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Nov 2007

14 Jan 2008 at 15:33 - 1937

i myself am leaning towards the hacker story, as i feel anet would not lie or if they got it wrong then they would surely say so. regardless the 117 were not all hackers. of that im sure.

SirJackassIII

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Oct 2005

Belgium

none

N/E

14 Jan 2008 at 15:34 - 1938

Quote:

Originally Posted by high priestess anya

how much profit do you make from duncan runs?
as far as im aware you can just run right up to him and kill him, end of quest..
19k per run ...driving a truck into a bank....jeez you got a wierd imagination
REGARDLESS
defend this..
duncan and mallyx are two of the same "breach in agreement"
just different severities

also would like to say that plaync have not brushed me off and keep responding to my tickets fairly quickly.
to all those who ARE innocent keep at it

Duncan takes 30 minutes - 1 hour depending on the group (and they can be bad...like really, really bad). So at most you'll do the run twice in an hours (not likely). So, taking the optimum of 2 runs/hour AND under the assumpton that there's someone ready to fill in the hole so you have someone with all 4 areas done.
The reward per run is:
2.750 gold
1 Onyx Gemstone
1 Armor set
1 Green/Gold/Gemstone/Diamond

So, 5.5k gold, 2 Onyx Gemstones, 2 armor sets and 2 Other. Onyx was what 3-4k at release? So 13.5k tops if they had a good group.

The Mallyx run apparently took around 20 minutes. So 3 runs per hour.
The reward per run is:
1 Armor piece
1 Green
1 gemset (worth 18k)
So in 1 hour, they made 3 Armor Pieces, 3 Greens and 48k gold

So Mallyx yields in almost 4 times as much gold and an additional armor set and green in the same time.

As to why Duncan and Mallyx are different, I already went over this here:
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...postcount=1942

Which will probably stop being correct if a lot of posts keep disappearing (even posts by mods

)

The Great Ithqua

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Oct 2007

The Azure Clan

E/

14 Jan 2008 at 15:34 - 1939

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trub

Anya..I'm saddened you aren't grasping the purpose of a forum.
You make a statement, an opinion..an ideal...people respond.
Forums are like that.
As for any one having 'their say.'
Quite honestly..alot of the (117) have literally buried themselves here, on this forum, with their accounts on how many times they 'actually' went in to 'farm' for gems, and ONLY got 1-5 armbraces.
Please, continue to submit tickets to support..but don't scold forumers for trying to understand what the banned are really trying to say here.(Many are actually KIDS)

Actually there are some who didnt get anything from the outpost other than white items drop by mobs and 100+ gold i was 1 of them. To tell you the truth though gaile said those who went in a few times wont get ban.. i remember i went in 3 times played 2 times failed mission 2 times.. profit i gain..less than 500 gold i still got ban..lolz i wonder what they mean by a few times if 3 gets ban than the rest of the 116 wont have much chance of getting back their accounts. Well of course Anet has the log, but haven got an answer on how many times i went in. must be busy..lolz

high priestess anya

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Nov 2007

14 Jan 2008 at 15:38 - 1940

Quote:

Originally Posted by SirJackassIII

Duncan takes 30 minutes - 1 hour depending on the group (and they can be bad...like really, really bad). So at most you'll do the run twice in an hours (not likely). So, taking the optimum of 2 runs/hour AND under the assumpton that there's someone ready to fill in the hole so you have someone with all 4 areas done.
The reward per run is:
2.750 gold
1 Onyx Gemstone
1 Armor set
1 Green/Gold/Gemstone/Diamond

So, 5.5k gold, 2 Onyx Gemstones, 2 armor sets and 2 Other. Onyx was what 3-4k at release? So 13.5k tops if they had a good group.

The Mallyx run apparently took around 20 minutes. So 3 runs per hour.
The reward per run is:
1 Armor piece
1 Green
1 gemset (worth 18k)
So in 1 hour, they made 3 Armor Pieces, 3 Greens and 48k gold

So Mallyx yields in almost 4 times as much gold and an additional armor set and green in the same time.

As to why Duncan and Mallyx are different, I already went over this here:
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...postcount=1942

Which will probably stop being correct if a lot of posts keep disappearing (even posts by mods

)

regardless this still doesnt discount that the duncan violation was also in breach of the user agreement and to my knowledge if you break the rules you get punished...
if you dont get punished then maybe when next bug comes along you might be more willing to give it a shot.
you understand?

Friday

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Oct 2006

[DVDF]

14 Jan 2008 at 15:39 - 1941

And Anet is not calling everyone involved a hacker either.

I am not going to link to it, just read the thread:
They say that they cannot reproduce the "glitch/bug/whatever" and that as far as their testing goes the ORIGINAL transgressor had to have "hacked" his way there.

I would hope that if they manage to reproduce it in their testing, that they will say so publicly in an announcement just as they made the original announcement.

DreamWind

Forge Runner

Join Date: Oct 2006

E/Mo

14 Jan 2008 at 15:40 - 1942

Quote:

Originally Posted by high priestess anya

i myself am leaning towards the hacker story, as i feel anet would not lie or if they got it wrong then they would surely say so. regardless the 117 were not all hackers. of that im sure.

You feel Anet would not lie? Lol...are you serious?

Also I haven't read this whole thread, but has it been confirmed that this was a hack other than Anet saying it was? It's much more believable that it was a ingame bug until further evidence arises (granted I haven't read the whole thread if there is evidence).

Upset_Farmer

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Dec 2007

Paladins of the Myst

E/Mo

14 Jan 2008 at 15:40 - 1943

bahah protect the game economy, oh wait a min. heres a zaishen chest, all rare can be obtain from it. oh wait here is Hard Mode lots of gold drop, aww man that bot try to rip me off on unid weapons. well i agree that this exploit was a severe one, but ppl do deserve a 2nd chance, and yes that is a load of real life money down the drain. to those who got ban i dont care if u did it on purpose or accidental, my sympathy is out there for you (however if you are one of those that have been ban before for such action you deserve it >:] ). -- ignore my grammar -> to much msn. lol

garethporlest18

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jan 2006

[HiDe]

W/

14 Jan 2008 at 15:40 - 1944

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aiden Arcana

We are fighting for justice, I know people who got at least 16 ambraces from this, and I didn't get 1 ambrace. We both got perma-banned. Is that REALLY fair? Since we are comparing this to real world situations. Person one kills 16 people intentionally, person b commits manslaughter. Should the punishments be the same? No and while both DID harm someone, there were serious differences in the crimes at hand.

Yeah but, unlike the real world there's very few crimes and punishments in Guild Wars. Exploit wise everyone gets the same blow no matter how bad it was.

Also Anet said they were banning over who ever entered the outpost more than 4 times, if I recall. So they do not care you didn't get anything, all Anet cares about is that Ebon Citadel showed on your screen when they did not want it to.

Anet lying is not surprising to me in the least. Gaile not knowing what's going on, well yeah I can see that coming. I'm not sure what to believe hacker/no hacker. But with someone else relaying messages to us other than the designers, I don't trust as much.

Also Anet did make a mistake, they made a big mistake when they didn't ban people in the past, it wasn't a warning it was them being nice. But it left people unguarded (somewhat) for this time. Sure logic should have prevailed but, if you don't get yelled at for doing something bad 3-5 times, you're going to think that you will be able to keep on doing those bad things and well it's going to be harder to resist. That's the reason I think Anet should give a bit of leeway (if that's the word

).

EDIT:

SirJackAssIII and anyone else who doesn't understand:

Anet doesn't ban (or shouldn't according to their EULA) for 1 exploit giving more than the other. They also do not ( or should not) ban for 1 exploit having more effect on the economy than another exploit. But do (should) ban just because the person was doing that exploit. Amount of money,effect it has on the economy etc..shouldn't matter because in their EULA it states they will ban for use of the exploit at all. "You will not exploit any bug in Guild Wars." SO it doesn't (or shouldn't) matter in the least that this exploit that 117 got banned for reaped more rewards than Duncan, which no one got banned for.

The Great Ithqua

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Oct 2007

The Azure Clan

E/

14 Jan 2008 at 15:42 - 1945

FYI: If Anet says ban, you can say all you want but you wont get it back. So i'm going to leave it to Anet's fair judgement, if i dun get back . just my luck for being stupid not knowing that outpost was a bug/hack/glitch/whatever it is. If i do get back, i will tell the other 116(thinks theres more now,just a guess) you stand a chance to get it back so give Anet sometime to sort things out. These the only 2 outcomes thats going to happen and thats how i'm going to react ^^

high priestess anya

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Nov 2007

14 Jan 2008 at 15:44 - 1946

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

You feel Anet would not lie? Lol...are you serious?

Also I haven't read this whole thread, but has it been confirmed that this was a hack other than Anet saying it was? It's much more believable that it was a ingame bug until further evidence arises (granted I haven't read the whole thread if there is evidence).

there is no solid evidence and all we have so far is ANET's conclusions...i think if it wasnt a hack then we wouldnt be dealing with so many "perma-bans"
but regardless...im one of the 117 and a lot of my friends where and to our knowledge no one knew of any hack being involved...the story about the GH tirck can be argued as for the simple fact that when this hurrah started 6 months ago the GH trick was none existant
but..w/e i wont give any definate answer but i would take ANET's word for it first knowing that if they got it wrong they are more likely to admit it

Trub

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Mar 2006

Sitting in the guildhall, watching the wallows frolic.

Trinity of the ascended [SMS]+[Koss]+[TAM]=[ToA]

14 Jan 2008 at 15:44 - 1947

Quote:

Originally Posted by high priestess anya

regardless this still doesnt discount that the duncan violation was also in breach of the user agreement and to my knowledge if you break the rules you get punished...
if you dont get punished then maybe when next bug comes along you might be more willing to give it a shot.
you understand?

But again..your not grasping what Gaile..as a rep from ANet had to say:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray
If you get stopped by a policeman for speeding, do you wonder "How did you miss the guy ahead of me, driving 10 MPH faster?" I think it's human nature, but the answer is clear: "Because I got caught, and he didn't."

In the larger sense, would we ever presume to tell the police department or the criminal justice system, "You didn't catch (or convict) that criminal, therefore you should not try to catch (or prosecute) any criminals?" No, because that's not the way things work. And yes, we're not talking "real life crimes" in this forum, but I'm hoping an analogy will be helpful. Game issues: Should we not block [this poor name] because [that other poor name] hasn't yet been caught? Should we leave every bots unbanned because we cannot ban them all?

I am not here to debate "that other thing" or "those other players." Other players have made it clear why some issues are larger than others, or why they are handled differently. I do understand the question, but I feel it's off the topic at hand. I came here to give you information about the Mallyx exploit, and to assure you that while we realize that we cannot catch everyone who behaves badly, nor every player whose actions can have a negative effect on other players or the game as a whole, we're not going to stop dealing with those whom we do catch, and we are going to continue trying to handle each issue to the best of our ability.

Go ahead and delete the post if you want GwG...><

high priestess anya

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Nov 2007

14 Jan 2008 at 15:46 - 1948

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trub

But again..your not grasping what Gaile..as a rep from ANet had to say:

Go ahead and delete the post if you want GwG...><

you missed the point completely.
and i know you are more intelligent than that so please stop with the silly minor attacks and grasp whats important here

mrvrod

Guest01

Join Date: Jul 2006

14 Jan 2008 at 15:48 - 1949

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aiden Arcana

We are fighting for justice, I know people who got at least 16 ambraces from this, and I didn't get 1 ambrace. We both got perma-banned. Is that REALLY fair? Since we are comparing this to real world situations. Person one kills 16 people intentionally, person b commits manslaughter. Should the punishments be the same? No and while both DID harm someone, there were serious differences in the crimes at hand.

So a serial killer who sucessfully kills 16 people should be treated more severely than a serial killer who attempts 16 murders but only succeeds in killing 1?

Your murder/manslaughter analogy is erroneous because those two charges are different levels of intent. The intent here was to loot, why should someone be treated less severely just because they weren't as lucky as the others?

As far as Duncan and Mallyx being the same or different, I would simply point to the language used by a-net in their game updates:

Fixed a 'bug' - duncan
Fixed an 'exploit' - Mallyx

Pretty simple one there.

And just for the record, I've NEVER used a bug or exploit for personal gain. I'm not making personal assumptions about the people who have used these for gain, and I'm not saying their bad people. Having said that, you should have known, or been able to reasonably guess, what would have happened if you got caught, and you did it anyway. No one there to blame but yourselves.

garethporlest18

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jan 2006

[HiDe]

W/

14 Jan 2008 at 15:51 - 1950

Quote:

Originally Posted by high priestess anya

im one of the 117 and a lot of my friends where and to our knowledge no one knew of any hack being involved.

This is why they should be defending themselves, this quote. Anet hasn't banned for other exploits in the past (like they should have) and these guys knew of no hack, if you can take their word for it, which I do for some of these guys.

But it's been argued that they were banned because they used an exploit that used a hack. Since Anet seems to stick with that answer, the chances that these guys will get a break (like many thousands of others did with past exploits) are slim to none.

Great they broke rules, yes bad thing to do. But so have many other people that are just playing scott free. But in the end it was Anet's choice not to ban those people in the past. So should we thank them or condemn them? Because many of these people might not be in this spot had people in the past been banned. Sure it's their fault, but the blame goes over 100% in this case.

Sigh mrvrod, Anet states if you exploit a bug. Duncan was a bug, people exploited it. So they still fall under the same rule breaking actions that these 117 fell under. Stop trying to throw off Duncan as being lesser, there is no middle,low or high ground, only one. Exploit and they were both exploits.

high priestess anya

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Nov 2007

14 Jan 2008 at 15:51 - 1951

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrvrod

So a serial killer who sucessfully kills 16 people should be treated more severely than a serial killer who attempts 16 murders but only succeeds in killing 1?

Your murder/manslaughter analogy is erroneous because those two charges are different levels of intent. The intent here was to loot, why should someone be treated less severely just because they weren't as lucky as the others?

As far as Duncan and Mallyx being the same or different, I would simply point to the language used by a-net in their game updates:

Fixed a 'bug' - duncan
Fixed an 'exploit' - Mallyx

Pretty simple one there.

And just for the record, I've NEVER used a bug or exploit for personal gain. I'm not making personal assumptions about the people who have used these for gain, and I'm not saying their bad people. Having said that, you should have known, or been able to reasonably guess, what would have happened if you got caught, and you did it anyway. No one there to blame but yourselves.

i dont really want to get into this but fyi if someone kills one person they get life with a chance to see day light in my country if you 2+ then you will rot in jail until the day you die...
so yeah
he has a valid point, but lets not forget that both acts are still breaking rules
i think hes pleading for leniency
try putting yourself in his shoes im sure you are intelligent enough to see this as a fair and valid statment

Ouchie

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jan 2007

[Leet]

R/

14 Jan 2008 at 16:01 - 1952

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aiden Arcana

We are fighting for justice, I know people who got at least 16 ambraces from this, and I didn't get 1 ambrace. We both got perma-banned. Is that REALLY fair? Since we are comparing this to real world situations. Person one kills 16 people intentionally, person b commits manslaughter. Should the punishments be the same? No and while both DID harm someone, there were serious differences in the crimes at hand.

Your choice of murder is a bad one. Both should be life sentances perhaps murdering 16 people should be 4 or 5 life sentances but one life sentance is not any better - and you still would have killed someone, not hurt - but killed.

I have to say after reading all the posts that are being written here that the 117 are digging themselves into a hole, simply by attitude. I actually do sympathize and can see how it could happen that someone might not know and how from the past people might think they weren't doing anything wrong but rather getting their share before a bug was fixed. The bugs of the past have led many to believe they should dive in and get what they can while they can, instead of hearing about how great it was afterwards. However, the tone and attitude of some of the 117 here seems to take away from their case. It is almost as many are saying they deserve to exploit the game Being allowed to use an exploit until it gets fixed and deserving to use an exploit are two different things.

Those who truly believed they were allowed to use the exploit till it gets fixed, I sympathize with you and I can understand your plea to have your account re-instated. I can say back when people were afk farming LB points I thought about it many times - never did since we were told it was an exploit, but I sure did think about it

Those who didn't know that it was an exploit at all I also sympathize with as I can see how someone could be that nieve. I myself didn't know click the go to GH button then leave GH button to Urgoz, or ferrying was an exploit, now I do I will buy scrolls to get there (if I go)

To those who are laughing it up on their rich alts (as we have heard in this thread some are) You are truly the ones who should be banned. IMHO

Celestial_Kitsune

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jun 2006

Me/

14 Jan 2008 at 16:02 - 1953

Quote:

Originally Posted by high priestess anya

all of you guys are acting like kids...
the point they are trying to say is that mallyx and duncan are two of the same, the only difference being is proffitability..

you can scream "hack" all you want. they thought it was a bug, just like duncan..so if you are one of the guys who have done duncan you sure as hell would have done this.
leave these guys alone and let them have they say for gawds sake

Some quests such as Duncan before nerf could be done with people who have not completed pre-requisite quests as long as one person had it active. I agree with your point that people who farmed Duncan this way would have farmed Mallyx too if the mechanics were the same. However, there is an important difference.

In Final Assault and Duncan quest you just have to team up with a person who has the quest - the rest of the procedure is the same as if all people have the quest. However, in a case of Mallyx exploit, you are relocated to a strange outpost with the enter mission button. This is not how the mission activates normally. To activate a mission, you have to talk to a priest at the Gate of Anguish outpost, but in the case of exploit you had to enter mission via a button in another outpost. I would find such a strange mission activation suspicious.

mrvrod

Guest01

Join Date: Jul 2006

14 Jan 2008 at 16:03 - 1954

Quote:

Originally Posted by garethporlest18

Great they broke rules, yes bad thing to do. But so have many other people that are just playing scott free. But in the end it was Anet's choice not to ban those people in the past. So should we thank them or condemn them? Because many of these people might not be in this spot had people in the past been banned. Sure it's their fault, but the blame goes over 100% in this case.

Sigh mrvrod, Anet states if you exploit a bug. Duncan was a bug, people exploited it. So they still fall under the same rule breaking actions that these 117 fell under. Stop trying to throw off Duncan as being lesser, there is no middle,low or high ground, only one. Exploit and they were both exploits.

First, I only stated that, based on a-net's own language one was a bug and one an exploit, I never tried to say either was right. I did say I have never taken advantage of either type, and I would never do so. So I threw off nothing.

Second, inferring that a-net is somehow culpable because of how they chose to handle other situations is shaky at best. The eula is clear, a-net has the right to decide how they handle each situation as it presents itself.

The degradation of society as a whole stems from this idea that you can go ahead and do whatever you want, then when you get caught, just blame everyone else for why you did it and why you shouldn't be punnished.

DreamWind

Forge Runner

Join Date: Oct 2006

E/Mo

14 Jan 2008 at 16:05 - 1955

Quote:

Originally Posted by high priestess anya

there is no solid evidence and all we have so far is ANET's conclusions...

So in other words, I don't believe it was a hack at the moment until we are given further evidence. Anet conclusions over the years have made me mostly ignore them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by high priestess anya

i think if it wasnt a hack then we wouldnt be dealing with so many "perma-bans"

Yes we would. There have been numerous bans for non-hacks such as the duping bug a while back.

Anet almost never admits to wrong in these situations. Even though it is clearly something programmed into the game intentional or not, they can simply ban the players and point to the EULA.

Instead of removing the damage done and fixing the problem, they can simply ban customers and say it was the players fault with no further explanation other than "it was a hack".

Quote:

Originally Posted by high priestess anya

i would take ANET's word for it first knowing that if they got it wrong they are more likely to admit it

Hahahah...yea we'll see.

high priestess anya

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Nov 2007

14 Jan 2008 at 16:07 - 1956

Quote:

Originally Posted by Celestial_Kitsune

Some quests such as Duncan before nerf could be done with people who have not completed pre-requisite quests as long as one person had it active. I agree with your point that people who farmed Duncan this way would have farmed Mallyx too if the mechanics were the same. However, there is an important difference.

In Final Assault and Duncan quest you just have to team up with a person who has the quest - the rest of the procedure is the same as if all people have the quest. However, in a case of Mallyx exploit, you are relocated to a strange outpost with the enter mission button. This is not how the mission activates normally. To activate a mission, you have to talk to a priest at the Gate of Anguish outpost, but in the case of exploit you had to enter mission via a button in another outpost. I would find such a strange mission activation suspicious.

regardless they where both exploits and all players involved in both duncan and mallyx glitches KNEW that it wasnt normal.
main point im putting accross is you must lead by examples. the duncan mob went unpunished which sent ppl mixed messages that its ok to exploit but once anet find out they just kill the bug and no one is harmed in the process..
hence the pleas and protests because these guys genuinely feel that no one has been treated differently than the other. both the same breach in user agreement.ok if the guys who done duncan got minor bans then it would have set an example but because no ban wheres implied these guys thought they could exploit it, anet would fix it, then thats it no more candy from that jar..
like i said, what they diod was wrong but i totally understand where they are coming from with this

Alya

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Oct 2005

European servers

RTFM

14 Jan 2008 at 16:10 - 1957

Quote:

Originally Posted by Celestial_Kitsune

In Final Assault and Duncan quest you just have to team up with a person who has the quest - the rest of the procedure is the same as if all people have the quest. However, in a case of Mallyx exploit, you are relocated to a strange outpost with the enter mission button. This is not how the mission activates normally.

Ah, but there's a snag. The Enter Mission button is a standard way to enter the mission in Prophecies, has always been, still is. For myself, I wouldn't think that something is amiss if I spotted this button on my party window -- it's pretty standard.

Fril Estelin

So Serious...

Join Date: Jan 2007

London

Nerfs Are [WHAK]

E/

14 Jan 2008 at 16:10 - 1958

Quote:

Originally Posted by Etta

I think it's Inde's call to close it, since she is the OP. You're right though, this thread just go round 'n' round in circle.

Correction: this is not a circle, this is a spiral and with each new page we're getting closer to "nothing more". The first 50 pages said almost everything (there's been a few very interesting contributions here and there, read it through it's enlightening and entertaining if you scrap the BS and chat).

I had a few times the impression that this thread is a sort of collective experience where the banned exploiters can try to take some comfort in showing their case (there's been at least 2 people doing so very humbly) while the other people give opinions and correct some information. It's a bit like a punching ball for them and the means for most to learn about the situation.

And we end up in a situation where people, that a few apparently trust, claim that Anet is lying. Who should we trust? Well, it's a subjective decision of course, but I suppose that until Anet issues a new statement, all this is moot. We can write 117 pages if we want, but all was said before. The eloquence may be different, but it's still the same point. And I'd even say that the discussion was more interesting in the middle of the discussion!

All this is a big cloud of words in the emptyness of ideas and concepts, words floating around without any attachment to reality and any concrete information to chew. We are all (I hope that's my last post here) filling in server memory just for the sake of replying to someone, express ourselves and be seen (some clearly want to be seen by Anet).

On one side of the ring Anet has a business under attack both from actions of a few players and words said on this forum, on the other side there are banned exploiters talking a lot to achieve a form of "justice" (which seems, please note the nuance here, to be more self-centered on the ban they just got rather than the interest of the community, while some are already ready to leave this community). It's interesting to see that we always end up at the end of the spiral of talks with the same topics: what is fair?

The Riven

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Jun 2007

None worth mentioning

P/

14 Jan 2008 at 16:10 - 1959

This has on by far to long indeed.

If this thread was a horse it would be shot.

There is no debate here, 117 people were banned by a-net for what they class as a breach of the EULA, 117 people claim they did not breach the agreement and at most all they are guilty of is accessing an outpost that they found, farming it and keeping it quiet for a few months.

We have now reached page 100 (for the N'th time.) There is not and cannot be any doubt that the 177 did something that the vast majority of gw players and forum users belive to be wrong.

Nothing new is being discused, at best the arguments now are plainly just repetitive from both sides.

garethporlest18

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jan 2006

[HiDe]

W/

14 Jan 2008 at 16:11 - 1960

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrvrod

First, I only stated that, based on a-net's own language one was a bug and one an exploit, I never tried to say either was right. I did say I have never taken advantage of either type, and I would never do so. So I threw off nothing.

Second, inferring that a-net is somehow culpable because of how they chose to handle other situations is shaky at best. The eula is clear, a-net has the right to decide how they handle each situation as it presents itself.

The degradation of society as a whole stems from this idea that you can go ahead and do whatever you want, then when you get caught, just blame everyone else for why you did it and why you shouldn't be punnished.

The "throwing" off thing wasn't aimed directly at you.

Second yeah Anet has a choice, wise though? That's why these people are defending. Better to be a loudmouth than a robot.

Degradation stems from the fact Anet hasn't banned for other exploits they should have banned for, game wise. And yes there has been much eluding of blame, but, as I said.. the blame for this is more than 100%. Anet gets some of it, regardless if it's their choice and their game.

Also these guys should have been punished, they broke the rules. But I think Anet should either give them a break or punish the other exploiters as well. That would be fair. Ahh but you guys don't care about fairness now do you?

The Riven: I am not trying to fight because they are not guilty, they are guilty but so are lots of others that should be banned and are not. I'm only fighting for fairness. But there's much misunderstanding on both sides of the fence, because people skip over posts with meaning to argue back and forth.