Guild Wars Skill Updates Jan. 17th 2008

in fact, i am most annoyed by this statement

What is your proof on this? Did "a player" ever asked you to stand out for him?

Moreover, don't you think you have been violating other player's free will? Let people who wanted to ursan do their stuff, you can sit aside and wait for a "BALANCED" group to come and do your things. This weekend, you see hundreds of people running around in wurm, and no one is crying out for wurms to get nerfed... let me remind you that wurms are actually stronger, and does not even require 1 or 2 monk to operate.

Indeed you are mistaken. with the introduction of skill packs, players who have purchased those does have an advantage over any role-playing character who went PvP. For a mere price of 5.00, skill pack buyers receives advantages over players who have not yet unlocks all the skills ( or players who have not yet buy the skill pack).

now, if you are wrong on this aspect, could it be that all your previous arguments are based on this wrong sense of fairness?

Ursan needs a nerf thats all it comes down too.
A-net probably realizes this but its not high on their priority list
GW2 and then PvP are, Ursan haters take a back seat.

To Those who love Ursan, so be it, note it has a rather high chance of being nerfed sometime within now and 3 months do not be surprised if it happens, and so to prepare for that play with it all you want for now.

>.>

Players exposed to well run ballanced build improves, speaking from self experience as well as from several cases i have seen. Most people do want quality pugs, so it is kinda positive for everyone to happen.

About free will. Do you think someone creating caster character wished to play more important parts of game as warrior? Maybe Anet violated his free will by creating the one and only option he has when he wants to group with other people. Meditate over this. Maybe you are violating their free will by running ursan and strengtening this status quo.

Nerfing ursan would be like nerfing any other skill - players would excercise their free will by running builds without it. I dare to say that they would have more controll over themselves that way.

Also, let me remind you that to do anything of worth (i.e vanq) you have to get out of wurm.

Nerfing Ursan Blessing would just add yet another skill to the already massive list of skills that nobody every uses.

Why not fix a few skills that people don't use to create some more variety in the game????

PvE skills were specifically made to be powerful, Anet is not going to take that away, also, Ursan blessing is one skill that encourages pug groups, something anet has been striving for since GW has been released. Lastly, no one said you have to use the skill, PvE does not need balance, and if people are over farming or concouring and area too fast, anet will just improve loot scaleing, or make the area harder.

As Zwei2stein has already touched upon, when in an Ursan group you are not being exposed and introduced to a wide array of professions. Besides those two monks there is little variety to no variety in what people are using.

Well firstly, any pvp character will have an advantage over a PvE character. It's not biggie since PvP characters can be made by anyone.

That aside: So I am mistaken? Role playing characters *do* get every skill unlocked on their account when you buy the pack?? That was my question, and I thought that was false.

Because taking Ursan is much more easier than having to put together a build. With Ursan, you don't have to worry about what skills to bring or how to distribute your attribute points.

Lol, no.

89101112

[generic statement supporting Ursan]
[generic retort opposing Ursan]
[generic post flaming Ursan supporters]
[generic comment about one of #3's parents]
[generic whine about yet another Ursan thread]

I can't say i like ursan.
It doesn't matter me much that people get their titles/money/whatever the easy way.
What bothers me is that people barely use anything else.
I do want to play with people, and I want a challlenge.

Making elite area's and hardmode into non-elite area's and easymode is not the way to improve a game.
Sure it might have been too hard for you before, but it's not called an elite area or called hardmode because it's intended to be easy.

Still most of the so-called self proclamed pro's/ hardcore players are complete idiots calling everyone noob if people aren't as good as they are (mostly self-proclamed again).
Now the newer players can play hardmode on easymode and do DoA as a normal mission.
Too bad it rigs any challenge in the game for me and others.
I'm not sure i'd like to play DoA ...pong style..

Sure, the concepts are different, but baseline reason stays the same. Try to have more adequacy when attempting to split hairs. Thanks for playing.

Lulz Sneak Attack should become a skill for pve and pvp

So I can have lulz

It's obvious.
You learn how to play the PROFESSION, instead of learn how to spam and rush.
And you learn bar comprehension.

Wurms only get access to the desolation.

Don't argue again.

@ensoriki: don't jump to conclusion, or i may as well say you are idiotic.
@zwei2stein:

Players exposed to well run ballanced build improves, speaking from self experience as well as from several cases i have seen. Most people do want quality pugs, so it is kinda positive for everyone to happen.

you actually don't keep showing your builds around when you join groups, or you can simply force everyone to read guildwiki to improve. Hasn't it comes to you that spreading common builds around kills creativity?
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About free will. Do you think someone creating caster character wished to play more important parts of game as warrior? Maybe Anet violated his free will by creating the one and only option he has when he wants to group with other people. Meditate over this. Maybe you are violating their free will by running ursan and strengtening this status quo.

again, if the caster wished to play caster, he does not need to be forced into playing ursa, he could wait for ensoriki, zwei2stein, and so many anti-ub people to form a party. it really isnt the only option, since its his own choice whether to equip UB or not
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Nerfing ursan would be like nerfing any other skill - players would excercise their free will by running builds without it. I dare to say that they would have more controll over themselves that way.

Again, this is just your opinion on how ub cannot excercise one's will. theres 5 buttons of actions which you can execute, moreover, say if someone dies, it is still necessary to switch off ursa and use a hard res. Really, nerfing a popular skill just because everyone is using isn't correct.

monks should really get a nerf for their same spell breaker/protective spirit etc /sarcacsm
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Also, let me remind you that to do anything of worth (i.e vanq) you have to get out of wurm.

i was only talking about the farming aspect, no one actually cares about vanquishing, but to farm those ss/lb points. Do you realize how imba that is? to see our poor bosses(without naming names) getting raped over and over again every minute.
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@bryant again
Bryant, stop assuming everyone is rich like you, buying all the skill packs/stuff
we are not spoiled people.

Sorry but your logic is messed up. How would the number of usable skill
increase just by making PvP character? without purchasing skill pack, PvE characters would have less skills to choose from, even if that same PvE player creates another PvP character, you still have to go through all the trouble earning factions to unlock skills, in contrasted to skill pack people.

more over, i believe you and your messed up logic went off topic again.
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Besides those two monks there is little variety to no variety in what people are using.

Bryant got a good point, monks needs a nerf everytime they find a way to solo temple hm
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@frizzles
again, go party search for non-ursan user. People can decide for themselves instead of others whining and demanding everyone to be "equal".
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@tyla salanari
wurms only get access to the desolation
and that is all people needed to max out their ss/lb titles, or even get rich from repetitive runs.

It's obvious.
You learn how to play the PROFESSION, instead of learn how to spam and rush.
And you learn bar comprehension.

we do know how to play our profession, it is you who do not understand the concept of efficiency
look at a ranger complaining about spamming skills. thought rangers are experts at spamming skills.

Yeah...you don't even need wurms to max those titles, it's a much quicker and easier alternative - BUT unlike ursan, this doesn't make it easier to do EVERY vanquish/mission now does it?
Every time i see "suchabody has earned VQ/LG" i think "pfft...ursan..." simply because it cheapens the title - as if PvE isn't easy enough now.

I don't understand the concept of efficiency..riiight...using an incredibly imba skill which cheapens GW for me and makes the game more boring via skill spam, buttonmashing and actually earning something doing it on the hardest mode possible for PvE?

No wonder PvPers look down on PvEers...because most of them now use the cheapest way without even TRYING something that will benefit their skill.

BTW, Ranger's don't spam skills, they use them skillfully, and speaking from a fairly experienced point of view - i would say you are rather ignorant.
You're thinking of the next ranger who spams Magebane/Savage/D-shot on recharge without thinking about shutting down skills.
Seriously, you say I don't value efficiency, then you say "rangers are experts at spamming skills"...it is YOU who does not understand that concept, don't pin the blame on me young man.

What made you assume I bought it? I mean I could, it's only five bucks. If I was really set on wanting to have all the skills I could easily buy an unlock pack, but I'm perfectly content just playing through the game and earning them for free. I'm sure a lot would be with me on this one.

This is where we lost each other. Are you saying it's a bad thing roleplaying characters have a hard time being greater than a PvP character? I'm a little confused now...Earlier, I thought it was that when buying the PvP packs all skills are unlocked for your account and only available through PvP characters. Then you said I was wrong so I thought "oh, so they unlock for PvE players as well it seems!" Now you're telling me they don't. Now, I don't see a problem.

Um okay. An Ursan group needs healers. In Ursanway, the monks are really the only true profession in the team since there is a large number of skills and builds they can bring. When I said "Besides those two monks there is little variety to no variety in what people are using," that's what I meant: that the monks are the only ones in Ursanway who actually have to make a build. No idea where you got me saying monks needed to be nerfed.

Regarding the Desolation: The Wurms aren't a concern because they're only in the Desolation, and you could do just fine in the area without it. There's little rewarding in going through the areas besides upping your NF titles. In regards to farming for loot/money, it doesn't matter. There are far numerous other methods that could yield better results.

I wouldn't really speak for everyone in this sense, if I were you...

I would suggest you take a look at the pre-nerfed versions on Intensity, Seed of Life, and Theres Nothing to Fear.
Ursan only allows other classes another alternative to be able to play in a non Tank/ele/ele/bip/monk/monk group that the average pug mentality thinks is what you need to have. It is actually discouraging to any "real" group forming to do anything depending on where and what you're doing.
PvE does require balance for a few different reasons. Player Economy and the Player Community are 2 of the main reasons as to why it requires balance. If not, then the game basically turns into a button mash grind that is all about farming and grinding titles, much like every other MMO that has ever hit the market and does not encourage player development, just encourages repetitiveness among the players and community.

Hahaha, that's exactly what it is anyway!

riding wurm is much easier and faster. how is using a set of wurm skill differs from using a set of ursa skill? both are button smashing frenzy, the only difference is the wurm have a hard res, and we dont need 2 more monks to follow around in desolation. Seriously, PvP has nothing to do with ursa, it doesn't even effect them in anyway. old-man does not understand new things, thus they get afraid of technology and generation.

you actually can get rich from doing that over and over again, what could you get from ub? same, money, title, loot.

Same argument, you cant use ursa in desolation.


have faith in other player, you just assuming they are noob because they are using ursa.

No, theres plenty of options that make it not a complete mindless button mash farm for hours game. Just because others don't partake in them doesn't mean that they aren't there.

ok you never said that, ever................. except right there.

And in the PUG you are talking about players aren't introduced to a wide variety of builds and skills either. They are only introduced to the very specific builds leetist jerks find suitable for the run. These people don't learn creativity or any real skill either, they only learn how to run the skills they are told are acceptable and nothing else.


Oh and just to clear this up, I have never used Ursan to vanq an area or even run an elite area. I just want to know it is there if I want to.

Wurm's are limited to one part of the game, unlike ursan.
Agreed, wurms don't contribute to learning the game: BUT IT'S ONLY A SHORT PART OF THE GAME.

Also: UB is usable ANYWHERE, and the wurm is bound to one area only - the desolation.

To the "PvP has nothing to do with ursa" comment, you got what i said wrong...what I ment was PvPers look down on PvEers having no skill, and ursan just makes them think "pfft, proven..."
Sure you aren't talking about Holy Trinity? Or are you talking about people who run incredibly terrible skills on their bar when they are actually being helped?

There's actually still quite a big difference. Junundu is limited only to the Desolation. UB is not. What you get from using Junundu is only the loot and titles that are available in the Desolation. UB you can just put in your pocket, boo-bam, use it anywhere you'd like.

I'm not. I'm asking you to not speak for everyone when you say "we know how to play our profession", because not everyone who uses it does.

UB isn't really usable anywhere, especially at energy denial places like some dungeons, have you see bears running around in desert?! NO

the idea of "learning the game" is really abstract. there is no precious definition.
who ever said that you can't learn the game while using UB? Learning differs from person to person, and you just shouldn't use your standard to evaluate all other people. With this said, you should stop assaulting UB users, we really don't care whether or not we are learning the game or not. we only know that it is funner to see boss go down faster then to get wiped out by bosses.

@Bryant Again
stop using your twisted and broken logic to argue. it just wouldn't work. clear up your thoughts and come back later.

really, hasn't it ever comes to you why you see more people in desolation farming points instead of other places? simple answer, wurms are much easier and faster, with that set of skills given, its the easiest and fastest way to kill 4 bosses and resign. really, what big of the difference is the loots in desolation compares to the loots all over the world? its the SAME.

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if you are concerning economical issues, go start a thread on temple hm
if you are concerning other people getting titles, go start a thread on desolation ss/lb farm
if you are concerning players not getting l33t pr0 skills, i suggest you to care more about your local politics.
MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESS
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Efficiency is a terrible thing in a game...when it is the only scale by which the game or those playing it are judged.

In GW there are only a handfull of efficient builds for each proffesion, while other builds will work they simply are not as efficient as the small core set of builds that people accept as perfect.

This drive for efficiency forces players to abbandon skills that do not meet the highest value for thier build. If not they face riddicul and name calling from other players or are forced to play solo.

For example each proffesion has roughly 30 Elite skills. Creating a build for each Elite skill should give you 30 builds that are all roughly equal or balanced in purpose.

It does not however what you wind up with is around 4-6 builds that are far superior to all the rest, and by a large margine. Some of the 24-26 remaining builds will accomplish the exact same as those top 4-6 but at a higher cost, meaning they are less efficient are are abandoned by almost all players.

Even when you factor in that there are many builds for each Elite skill, you still wind up with 4-6 builds that are at the top of the pile and everything else is discarded as not efficient enough to use.



Ursan Blessing is the skill that sits atop all of those builds. While each proffesion may have 1-2 builds that are the equal of UB, some even superior, since it is better than most all other builds players choose it out of simplicity and efficiency.


Give players more to choose from and they will choose to be creative, bordom is the real enemy that we all battle when we log into GW!

The loot is the same, eh? Last I recalled, Mallyx's weapons didn't drop in the Sulfurous Wastes.

I don't care that people are farming the Domain of Anguish or what people are doing in their Junundus. I care about the integrity of the game. It's not like UB applies only to DoA, it applies to the whole game. It's the fact that Domain of Anguish, which by many consider to be the most challenging area in Guild Wars, now takes little effort to what it used to be that's distressing - and if the Domain can be trumped without as great of a hassle, then that means that the rest of the Guild Wars universe will not provide much challenge at all.

And if you continue to call my logic "broken", at least tell me why that is.

and i thought the whole game was suppose to be challenging, not just some area. if temple hm are dominated by monks, then perhaps they should also recieve a nerfing. after all, hm does stands for hard mode.

i fail to see why you keep stressing over DoA. just as i always said, let people choose what they wished to do. How can you fail to see why so many people chose to use UB in DoA? because it will work. Similarily, you NEVER see people using UB in temple HM, why?

because 600 mo + smiter is better, easier, and you don't have to do anything except pay at boss and pick up loots. (at least u have to spam keys in DoA)

You seems to be simple minded or ignorant, keep on avoiding the whole big picture. You apply things that you think isn't fair, while ignoring the things that could bring you advantage. such as TEMPLE HM

There is one area in the game that could possibly frontload 58 points of energy denial to kick one person out of bear form and that is one of the last rooms of The Deep. 58 being the maximum amount of energy a warrior, who has the lowest base energy, could achieve with equipment alone. Multiple Shiro'ken Rangers at Raisu Palace mission in HM could probably do the same, maybe.

I'm not sure what you mean by the desert though. I can't think of any energy denial there besides the Quicksand spirit.

From this some definitives can be drawn from what learning the game is. In this case it would be the knowledge of an area and using that to form proper skillbars and tactics for the task at hand. If that boss is a caster bring a source of daze and shut it down. The boss is a physical then carry a source of weakness, blinds, or blocks. AoEs killing us? Maybe we should spread out.

You can learn the game, somewhat, by using Ursan. You can learn patrol patterns, how to chain knockdowns with your other Ursans, and how to chain your weakness shout with other Ursans. Once you stop using Ursan however, all you've taken from that experience is how patrols work. How about your equipment? The only weakness of the bear is letting your energy drop to 0, or Distracting Shot/Diversion/etc... on Ursan Strike. If you're not playing with a high energy set (at the very least on one of your four sets) then you haven't learned to optimize your equipment for the bear.

As is my understand there were no groups capable of defeating Mallyx himself without resorting to a glitch to kill him up until a few months before EOTN's release.

A well-balanced and cooridinated team will work, as well - and it's been working since DoA came into play (well at least shortly after). People just use UB because it's easier on so many levels: it's simpler in execution, in setting up, in use, and in coordination.

People bring up DoA complaining about UB simply because the Domain of Anguish is revered as being the hardest area in Guild Wars. As I've just stated in my previous post, if a pug is able to complete the stages of the Domain without much hassle, the rest of the game is simplified.

And before I make a huge assumption, what is this "Temple Hard Mode" farm you speak of?

Well I done been schooled.

prehaps your knowledge of GW isnt as much as i expected.

Apparently the school did not have any grammar taught there.

Noes.

I asked you nicely and you instead degrade me. Perhaps you are running out of things to hold onto?

He's probably referring to using the wurms to farm the temple of the monoliths quest for LB points.

Well he did mention something about being able to solo it all as a monk or something. Aside from that I dunno what other temple there would be...but I hope that's not the one I'm thinking of.

anyways, i suppose you don't have EotN, which makes me wonder are you anti-UB because you don't have one?
"Jealousy is a deadly sin" -the crucible, arthur miller

temple hm = temple of the damned, hardmode where a solo monk with a hench can do the whole dungeon, while they charge players from around 2k to attach the run to get chest rewards and loots.

And there goes your credibility. That Aside:

...Just that? I wasn't aware that was the name it was given. I make more profitable farm runs in Hard Mode on my Rit.

once again, your broken logic leads you off topic. This is about ursa not temple hm. they actually get their base reward of 1.5k + 12k from each other members, alone with chest loots of 3 items, depending on what item it dropped, under 10 or so minutes.

anyways, if you don't ever have tried EotN, then prehaps you shouldn't have ever started sharing your biased opinion.

not in this lifetime it seems.

Overall..the changes are ok i guess. Though im disappointed Never Rampage Alone wasnt worked on. Its got a huge cost for rangers (25 and has to be recase every 15-23 seconds) putting it up there with Quickening Zephyr which if im nto mistaken is the only other 25 cost ranger skill.

These need to be looked into as their functionality does not warrant such a high cost.

/me uses "channel moderator attack"

This isn't an Ursan thread, even though all skill balance ones invitably turn into one. Can we try to keep it focused on the "Guild Wars Skill Updates Jan. 17th 2008?"

Weren't you the one repeatedly bringing up temple HM?

Temple HM farm enables ONE profession to easily beat ONE part of the game. UB allows ANYONE to do the same for nearly ANYWHERE in the game. While both might deserve to be fixed/nerfed/balanced/whatever you want to call it, UB is the one having a much, much greater negative effect on a large portion of the game. The same can be said about ursan vs junundu.

So many people say that the "holy trinity" being the only ones accepted into elite areas is a problem, and I do agree with them. But at least the trinity allows for some diversity in builds. Now, UB has condensed elite areas down to a "holy duo" of ursan and monk, which using the same logic, is even worse. 75% of the party is only accepted if they are capable/willing to use UB. This just works to make the game stale and boring, with 75% of players in elite missions all running the same build. If changes to skills are needed to keep the game "fresh", why should ursan be allowed to continue to dominate places like DoA.

again, another simple minded person who only thinks of themself
first of all, from looking at your profession... i sense biased opinion dashing out from your face.
- even if you can only solo at temple of the damned, don't you already feel rich enough?
the same reason goes for why people mostly ursan DoA. note that we COULD UB everywhere, but we only UB DoA. It only takes one line of code to malfunction the whole program. It DOESNT matter which causes more damage, if both are at false, both deserves to be fixed. Same applies to everything. If monks are ridiculously rich from soloing temple since the beginning of EotN, maybe some sort of "fairness" ought to be carry out by A-net. If it is not what monks desired, maybe they should just back out and heal other bears.

once again, everyone holds their own choice, if you cant find non-ursan party, go make one yourself. I heard enough whining saying that xx% couldn't find party....... i suggest you to private message zwei2stein, bryant again, and some other anti-ursan people to form your own party, we UB user doesn't care how much you like to die to bosses.

aside from temple hm, i know there are still many people who like to solo fronis. EotN making GW unbalance is a fact, there is no point of keep stating the obvious. It has already been too late to make things balance again (unless reroll and disable EtoN)