Guild Wars Skill Updates Jan. 17th 2008

This is a REALLY, REALLY bad post.

Using a superbad overpowered skill like Ursan to get people to use their PvE mesmer is a god awful concept. Buffing the PvE only skills to make them all worthwhile is a much better idea.

I agree wholeheartedly on the PuG mentality. But I also believe that alot of the problems in GW concerning non-hardcore players revolve around pug issues. This is namely because the game no longer promotes player cooperation due to the emergence of heroes and RTS style components. How many missions or quests actually require player interaction aside from the gate switch at presearing? The entire game can be completely more quickly and efficiently with more heroes than players due to just how competently set up and managable heroes are.

The areas that have the most community issues are the ones that are too tough for mainstream heroes, such as plenty of HM areas and elite missions. I would go far as to say there are discriminations against not only professions, but against other players who's builds a leader believes to be inferior to his own heroes.

From experience I have the Legendary Guardian title and it would be impossible to get without heroes. I just found a good group of friends that likes outfitting heroes and sat down to conquer HM with them. I would have NEVER finished it pugging. Really you can't get anywhere pugging because the quality of pugs is so low.

Pugging is something I do for fun, I do it without expectations from other people. Unlike others I'm not going to scream and whine about a flare monk on my team because I go into pugs expecting builds like that. BUT when I do pug I ALWAYS bring heroes that I know will make up for the weaknesses of the party. You would be shocked to see how much of a difference one party support paragon can do to get 3 hamstorm warriors through thunderhead keep.

Heroes are fun, I love them to death, but they also promote non-cooperation. People that want to play non-herowayable zones or higher end PvE areas are going to get frustrated when the have to fish for comptent players that are probably playing solo with heroes when they are serious too. People that have those problems should probably dedicate time to finding a good guild that has supportive members that know what they are doing.

I really think from a skill balance point of view, improving pugs is beyond help. Its now up to the player to improve their playing situation by finding competent friends to get through harder areas. Ursanway gives those players with limited sociality some chance to get through them without the needed networking and a decent friends list. Hell I'd go far as to say that nerfing Ursanway will only spawn class discrimination and "I can't beat X area threads" from the very same people complaining about Ursanway in the first place.

Anet knows PuGs are generally beyond help, so they introduce cheap build options and skills like Ursan to appease the people having a hard time finding friends. Also thats to say, what is stopping you people complaining about ursanway from banding together and beating high end areas without Ursan?

Jeez Anet can fix skills but they can't fix your friends list. Heh, maybe players should fix their attitudes in PuGs before complaining about PvE skills.

That's not what I said?

But you need GW:EN, of course. My point is that I don't believe it's much better off as it is now as it was then. While there is still class discrimination there is now skill discrimination, and the latter may very well be a more discreet club.

If I had to choose between overpowered PvE skills and Ursan, I'd probably go with the PvE skills. I'd much rather have neither, though.

Heroes are only good as the person who's controlling them. If you're a newer player, your heroes may very well be worse than henchies.

If that's why it was introduced, then people are using it for all the wrong reasons.

I think he means it's a "really bad post because it doesn't agree with me." That and he failed to read your comment about PvE skills being buffed or changed so they offer something akin to TNTF or SS to a party. I thought it was a reasonable post. People should read posts before making attacks on a message board.

Funny how he attacks your post then talks about something that you already mentioned. No, I think he has the bad post.

Well yeah. But ANet need to introduce more or simply rework the PvE skills so that any profession can use them well, so that bringing a mesmer into a DoA group would be better for the team than bringing an Ursan. However, knowing ANet, this will probably never happen so Ursan should... stay.

Elemental flame and chilling wind buffs make no sense. You cant spread chilling winds on multiple targets because of its recharge. In PVP a monk will remove it in 8 secs, in PVE your target should be dead in half that time O.o

And they increased the burning duration on elemental flame to make it usable at lower ranks, but its duration sucks. Glyph of immolation is better as it activates both steam and earthen shackles on their cast. You dont need cross element burning for anything else.

Scorpion Wire buff is yummy, although there probably going to need to nerf it.
So I'll say ahead of time, increase range to 150' or 15 recharge =P

Shadow Refuge buff before Heart of Shadow buff =P
Anyways HoS would be used at 7 or around 7 points in Shadow Arts, making it a 86 heal every 15 seconds with a shadow step that randomly positions you somewhere.
A recharge reduction would be nice.

Vipers Defense, You couldn't just leave this as a spell? cast times are boring
If only enchantment rending was good.

Tap HEV 1 more time.



There should've been more...

Like last year T_T....

While they may "work harder than most", they're still massively viable in PvE. Just ask Shanaeri. I will say, however, that it's that stereotype that's hurting them the most and encouraging to keep Ursan unchanged.

EotN buried it, apparently.

i have a screenie of divine saying he respects Guardian and Vanquisher title.

Putting it up soon for your pleasure

This like like saying that Ritspike, splinter, and warmongers to play a character that normally wouldn't see primary profession play into PvP.

It's still not a good reason to resist nerfing the skill.

Hmmm... Sounds intriguing and fun. Can't wait to see how the updated versions work especially in competitive play. Good job for the buffs. More variance to choose from

It's hardly the same because one is PvE and one is PvP. Sorry.

Except you're wrong, sorry. The concept is still the same. Sure, they're two different game types, but that doesn't exclude the thought process behind nerfing a skill.

Defend your point better next time if you're going to say something like Ursan is a non-issue. Despite my support for the Pvp-community at large, you can't just disregard a pve skill because it's pve.

Mesmers (and I'm sticking with the Mesmer for the sake of simplicity) have been seldom used in PvE because their skill pool is better suited for PvP, and it's been that way since 05'. Ursan allows any class to involve themselves at almost every level of PvE, as well as casual players a way to quickly join groups without having to worry about team build synergy or anything of the like; you simply go in and press buttons. However, this is of course not good for the game. ANet need to buff/rework the PvE skills to ensure any profession is just as useful as the next at all levels of PvE. Until then, simply because of the opportunities it creates, Ursan should stay.

PvE issues are different to PvP issues because the former really only affect other players indirectly and to a small extent (Ursan affecting the economy, perhaps) whereas the latter affects everyone on a grand scale (splinter/ar/blockway etc.). Also, I honestly don't care about Ursan so if you're going to quote me again please read my post properly. Ty.

Again, see my post. Mesmers, especially with those new PvE skills you keep mentioning, are deadly-deadly honeydews. And also again, I'll mention that fact that while it includes more professions, it secludes more players (what if you don't own GW:EN?)

Well the Asian districts are a non-starter. I'm in Japan at the mo, so I was happy they've opened them up - but there are less than 5 people, collectively, in Lion's Arch, The Eye and Kaineng.

It also excludes players (like me) that want to play the character/profession they chose to make. I didn't develope a character of each profession to be forced to use a "cookie-cutter profession"(precisely what Ursan is) every time I do an elite mission.

It also excludes those that do not want to grind EotN rep titles. This also happens in DoA with the LB title, but at least that title is in the same campaign and can actually be increased while doing the mission. UB also makes it easier to replace a party member if you find someone with a higher rank because there is no concern for what profession they are.

The concept behind Ursan is bad regardless, if only because of the very concept itself. Lose the curt responses, it's not helping.

I did read your post correctly, you didn't read (understand, maybe?) mine. Good, they're seperate, good, they affect each other in different.

The concept behind nerfing skills in either comes back to the same applicable reason, that is, imbalance.

Ursan is good for the PvE community. You CANNOT deny this. It gives all of these classes that would have never been able to accomplish some things or be invited into a group for some elite mission a chance to finally be accepted.

I honestly don't understand why everyone has a hard on for bashing Ursan. It's a PvE skill for gods sake, no one is using it against you and you are not forced to use it yourself, what the hell is the big deal? All I see on this forum is people bitching a complaining about Ursan and it's completely redundant, it does not affect you in any shape or form. Get over it. Shaddup about it.

If you have to complain or moan about what you consider skill or not skill as evidenced by other players skill bars, other players that you DON'T EVEN KNOW most of the time, then you need to take a good hard look in the mirror at the over absorbed, elitest, nerd staring back at you.


AND NO, I DO NOT RUN URSAN, SO DON'T EVEN GO THERE

I made the text smaller so it takes up less space, just so ya'll know.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mr_stealth It also excludes players (like me) that want to play the character/profession they chose to make. I didn't develope a character of each profession to be forced to use a "cookie-cutter profession"(precisely what Ursan is) every time I do an elite mission. It also excludes those that do not want to grind EotN rep titles. This also happens in DoA with the LB title, but at least that title is in the same campaign and can actually be increased while doing the mission. UB also makes it easier to replace a party member if you find someone with a higher rank because there is no concern for what profession they are.

Precisely. It doesn't help discrimination. It may help class discrimination, but in it's stead brings different different problems to the table. And another one of my favorite bits: Quite a few people are still going to be unhappy. I don't think a person rolled a Mesmer or a Ritualist to hit things. If they wanted to do that, why not roll just roll a Warrior?

Following brought from this thread, because it's more appropriate here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by trobinson97 I don't like to argue "what ifs". Fact of the matter is, there is no skill like that in the game; there is not a skill that comes remotely close to it, so why would I waste my time trying to defend it. It doesn't exist. Ursan does, and yes you are reading the "it's not my instance, so it doesn't affect me." Why do I make that argument? Simple, it's true. If or when Anet introduces a skill that does the things you described, I'll remember to let you know how I feel about it.

It actually leads to my question: How broke can a skill be before you say "this is bad for the game"? Where do you draw the line?

Quote:

Originally Posted by trobinson97 If someone thinks Ursan makes them good, so what? Is your ego that sensitive that people doing things that you do in a quicker manner it makes you feel like a lesser player/person? Or is it that you're trying to convince me that you think so highly of yourself along with being the most compassionate PvE crusader playing this game that you want everyone playing GW to be as skillful in PvE as you?

It's the fact that it essentially changes how the game has been played for over three years - and it played damn good! - is why I'm chiefly concerned. It's an online game that's been changing since its release, sure, but I don't see why ANet would make such a negative change to it.

When you're somewhat of an inexperienced player and you're able to complete high-end and difficult tasks in an Ursan group, you're missing out on a lot of content. Content is not just going through the areas but it is also the journey that you, the player, have through the game - and this is something that applies to every game on the market.

Giving the option of playing as Ursanway is fine and dandy, just as fine and acceptable as it is lowering the difficulty bar in Oblivion or playing on an easier game mode in Doom. If a person is having a hard time, I have no problem with them handicapping themselves. I'd just greatly appreciate it if it was made universally aware that this was what you were doing when you go the way of the bear.

Quote:

Originally Posted by trobinson97 Again, I don't participate in those arguments. They're weak and have nothing to do with anything currently in game.

My point is that the fact that something getting people to play together always depends on what it's costing the game. Just because it gets people to play together does not mean it's good for the game.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DivineEnvoy Your point is more or less just an exaggeration to promote Ursan of being a god-mode skill.

In the most basic sense, I asked him what he would think if they added an insanely overpowered and damaging addition to the game. I am not basing Ursan on it's "godmodeness" (which it is not) but more of it's harmful affects.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DivineEnvoy One of the purposes in playing a game is to have an entitlement from playing the game, and this may include beating a certain mission or farming a certain weapon, but with a skill like Ursan, the so-called entitlement can become rather meaningless. In saying this, I'm not claiming to be an elitist who tries to dictate how others should play the game, but my point is, I believe there is a need to have entitlements within Guild Wars, despite the upcoming release of Guild Wars 2. My question is, how far can the line be drawn to satisfy both parties?

Thank goodness, I agree with you on this : ) And that last sentence is something I've been asking for a while, as well...Now, where we agree on where to draw the line may be a different problem.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DivineEnvoy You have demoted the players who use Ursan will become inexperienced players, but the fact is, that do not apply to all the Ursan users.

That's actually almost opposite of what I said: I said that it won't turn you into a good player.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DivineEnvoy Secondly, don't use emotions such as you being happy as one of your points when comes to an argument; it is quite weak.

I said "I would be happy if they made this change" i.e. "I would be content if they did this" i.e. "this would be a well suitable change for me." You can't take what I say too literally. I'm sorry if the way I write is a bit different than what you may be used to.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DivineEnvoy In this case, the quality of the game is already nearly nothingless as Guild Wars 2 is about to release, and it's only one year now. And in my perspective, most the people I know have already quit the game, and this includes the top PvP players who had their names shined on the official Guild Wars page.

Wait...What happened to the quality of the game?? It's still completely solid as RPGs go. I don't see where all this terrible bad stuff is coming from to downgrade it as such.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DivineEnvoy And once again, you made another exaggeration to Ursan being god-mode, since it does not drop 100k each time you kill a monster.

Sorry to make you assume such. If you noticed what I had posted in the earlier thread, I never mentioned nor referenced Ursan doing anything like this. You can see the point of what I said higher up in this post.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DivineEnvoy The fact is, you are just able to go through areas little bit faster, although I believe hardcore players who know the secrets to builds can go even faster.

It's not "just a bit faster." It's VERY much faster, not only in terms of plowing through areas but also in party orginization. People won't care what you bring as long as you got Ursan (that's really all you need) and monks for healing/etc. Just fill up on Ursans, take a side of Monks, and you're good to go.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DivineEnvoy Even so, I do not believe that everyone should follow my way when they are playing, but my point is, after loot scaling, skill packs and now Ursan, don't we need even just a bit of entitlement?

Skill packs are a blessing, loot scaling is easily managable (go farm in hard mode.) Why should we have the right to be "entitled" when ANet instead improved the game?

Wall of Text courtesy of Bryant Again....again

Ursan is it's own class, in case you haven't tried it, it replaces your entire skill bar. When you wear the form you aren't playing a mesmer or a necro or a warrior or whatever, you're just playing ursan.

The various overpowered PvE skills (including ursan) make Balancedway actually possible now in DoA. We've cleared areas with curse necros and paragon shouters even. There's no reason they can't find groups other than pugs being narrow-minded (which is how it works for every other elite mission, including the easy ones.)

The concept behind Ursan & Junundu is the same, except Ursan is less powerful + zero self heal.

And that it's universal.

It is not.

In order to do HM in Desolation you still need to get out of worm and you need to be able to take care of enemies in rocky areas in your puny human form. And those enemies are hader ones out there (SS ele boss for example.).

Also, Junundu never interfeered with game outside of its location. No elite mission statues decorate HoMs of mending wammos because of it.

In fact, junundu greatly helped to reduce grind of NF (simple effective farm for those point titles)

If random pug of people who struggle to pass normal storyline can finish hardest elite area in game in one afternoon, just thanks to it, it is pretty hard to argue that it does NOT dumb game down.

i see it already, "but we wiped once" argument incoming ...

Wrong.

People are running DoA way faster and way easier than intended.

That looks better.

So, you know all about why Izzy didnt nerf it? That sounds quite alot like "i know it all" pople you qqed about in same paragraph.

There are lots of reason why Izzy didnt nerf it. Maybe he didnt get clearance to nerf it (aka, was not allowed to by superiors)
Maybe he does not care about PvE ballance (which he aparently does not even think can exist based on his quotes) so he sees no point in nerfing it, even if he thinks its bad skill.
Maybe nerf is in pipeine and was set back by bug fixes to that skill which took priority.

Also, ask top PvPers how much Izzy knows about game, they would propably say something about Izzy living in some distant universe. Its pretty much always the case that hardcore players know more about game than its creators (did you know that, i.e. ultima online devs used fansite resourses to get information about their own game.). It is because devs have to keep in head all possibilities and it can seriously mess you up to point when you confuse live version features with featues that were abandoned during development. Maybe he was "wtf, ursan blessing is same bar we gave to people in mission and not thing norns use? Oh noes, what do we do."

I say again. What does it matter to you? Why do you care about what other people do/accomplish? From what i've read, most of the people here consider titles to be useless/pointless/noobish to begin with, so what difference does it make if they use Ursan to obtain it. It's in the game, they used it, it worked. End of story.



I believe that is a personal opinion. It that was the case it would have been nerfed. It wasn't. QQ some more. It doesn't affect you unless you want it too.



I never said I knew why Izzy didn't nerf it, only that he didn't, HE DIDN'T. Stop putting words in my mouth. However, I'm sure that if he had the time to put thought into nerfing something as already useless as Scorpion Wire then I'm pretty sure Ursan has flown across the table more than once. The fact remains, someone at Anet sees fit not to nerf it. ANet>You end of story. You can cry about Ursan until your eyes bleed but until ANet shares your sentiment you are wrong.

Perhaps you make it more complicated than it really is.

No.

As I've stated repeatedly (and now italicized for emphasis): Where do you draw the line in how overpowered a skill is to become? You yourself said that Ursan doesn't affect you if you don't want it to. That's nearly the same argument that could be used for an option in the settings that made it so all monsters died in one hit.

and

So are you now saying Izzy doesn't know what he's doing?

ANet can do whatever they'd like to the game. I just want to know why some think it's acceptable that they degrade it.

Last point is quoted fer the lulz:

Fine, I fold. Since the Ursan crybabies will not and cannot be swayed all I can suggest is that they add two more skills to the Ursan Blessing to balance it out once and for all.

I present, the new skills added to the Ursan Blessing:

Two skill slots dedicated to Tears No More. Not only that, but the Ursan Elite Icon will now have two bottles of Tears No More on either side so that tears can be avoided prior to and during use.



Have fun with your tear free Ursan!

The problem with this argument does not reside with what you intended with the argument, but it resides within how the reader would react or conclude from your argument. To avoid errors, you would have to keep the logics within your argument simple and clear.

Here's a relevant argument if I use your logic:

Two students are throwing rocks at each other. I would ask you how far should the line be drawn if they are throwing nuclear missles at each other.

As you can see, throwing rocks is a different matter when it's compared to throwing nuclear missles, despite the fact that they are both the same action. To analyze this further, you are trying to promote a worse consequence (which does not exist) to explain what possible consequence the current situation may result in, but the problem is, these two premises do not relate, despite they being similar, and so the consequences do not connect as well.

Like I said previously, it was more or less a possible fix to your argument. It was not my point or argument as I would like to stay neutral at this point.

That is still not the actual fact, since the actual fact may vary from person to person.

In an argument, it is best for you to not use this type of logics, because, as a reader, I find it rather biased.

My point, in this case, is that what is really the quality of the game if no one plays it. As many people are leaving the game, it's like how people would desert a city, and someone would still comment about the life quality to live in this city. It doesn't seem very strong.

Read above.

I do not play in Ursanways, so most my views came from playing Ursan with Heroes/Henches, and it's really just a bit faster.

Not really, after spending hours capping all the elites in PvE so I can use them in PvP, then they just release a Skill Pack so everyone can buy it. However, I don't really care. My point is, people are upset from these changes, but their so-called morals are really just opinions. What I was trying to say, in this case, is that Anet has allowed so many tasks to be done easily to the point there's no entitlement, but we do need entitlements to some extend to satisfy both parties.

Once again, that's more or less just a fix from your argument. It's not really my opinion.

I have no desire to get involved fully here, but......

I must point out the glaring contradiction you made here. Because you obviously support using the overpowered nature of the junundu to farm, but scorn the overpowered nature of UB for the same thing. Pick a side plz. If you must argue about it please don't blur the lines as this could cause the rest of us who don't care either way some confusion as to which side of the fence you are playing on. Kthnx.

If you dont want to get involved in flamewars, stop using "Kthx" speech. Now, that i can look down to you as aol kiddie, let me explain:

Ok, let me ask first, where did i say i dont like farming? Nowhere, i might answer. People are free to grind their asses off if that is their poison (but i do go WTF are you playing gw for if you enjoy that kind of thing) Hell, i designed some of better farmbuilds out there. Because i like the fact that you can use skills in clever way to create unexpected.

But thing is ... faming builds are harmless to challenge of game because, well, because they suck because they dont work everywhere. Strong farm build can be used to roll monsters but its fragile at same time. Farming also serves to ease grind, which is positive.

Ursan on the other hand works everywhere. It allows you to Complete supposedly insanely hard area and walk away with statue casually. There is huge difference from simple farming run for worthless green or some points to title. Huge.

I also disagree with grind rewarding people with power. Bear means that grind is rewarded with power. It used not to be case and it used to be why i got to GW to begin with.

stfu about ursan now.

You've discussed it enough in this thread.
people who are arguing will not be swayed by each others arguments easily so don't waste your times. Although your likely to ignore me, since hijacking the Skill Update thread is fun.

I thought this thread was talking about the update.
What you liked or didn't like.

Discussing why OMFG Ursan wasn't nerfed for 10 pages is silly.

Anyways.


Got 4 sin utility buffs, this update
I wan't to see more.

ok......

BEAR with me (pun intended).....

using ursan to grind a title is bad? right?


but using junundu to grind SS/LB title is ok?

maybe stop contradicting yourself moron.

that is twice you have said using something overpowered is bad and good in the same post. hypocrit. period.


PS. on topic, skill update was good. no PvP encroachment into PvE playability is always a good thing.

I never, ever said that.

READ with me (punch intended).

Well uh my ranger used Magebane in PvE,
so it encroached >.>

Ursan is a titled base skill

A title powered skill, allowing you to grind more titles.

Btw you can take Ursan blessing wherever Junundu's are.

The concept behind nerfing PvE skills differs to that of PvP skills. If you can't figure out why that's not my fault. Post less crap please.

They're mediocre at best.

That doesn't mean there shouldn't be more.

I expect the next Skill update to have

25 Assassin Skill buffs
1 skill nerf (Scorpion wire gonna get the boot)
and 2 Mechanic Changes!

Guild Wars is supposed to reward player skill, not give every tom dick and harry ursan blessing so that they can play PVE with zero skill.

I vote for bannage of consumables, all PVE skills, and to balance for this and allow easy play in the game, allow 7 heroes!

>Activates burning shield to protect from flames<

I'd understand but throwing rocks in no way relates to my original question: How powerful can something be to be considered too much? My original point was in no way an attempt to compare Ursan to a non-existant and overpowered skill.

Again, you take my passages too literally. Nothing is fact on these forums, but you assume your opinions based off of tiny pieces of probability and evidence. That aside, I can confidently say that a player has a higher chance to learn much more in a balanced team consisting of many professions and builds rather than a group of six people using UB.

Then you are reading too into it. Even though the word "happy" is a personal term I am not using it in such a context to prove or justify my point. If it would make you feel better I can go back to the original passage, make the wording as formal as possible, and I would still have my message be made across on these forums. This is just how I write and I'm sorry that it can be misleading.

Quantity does not always equate to quality, something many here would say of World of Warcraft's success. But if people are not buying the game then it goes much farther then the game itself.

That said, resorting to cheapening the game is never a good idea. It chips the quality and, depending on how cheapen it, consistency of the game. I'd much rather have a high quality but somewhat sparse game than an overpopulated mess of last-resorts. Not to mention, why does ANet *have* to keep us playing? It isn't like the game is pay-to-play or anything. Sometimes games just get boring.

Unless I'm wrong, the skills are only unlocked for your account, not your character. So that entitlement for PvE still remains (this too, as you pointed out, varoes). The unlock packs are there for purchase to make the PvP playing field equal - as it should be.