Should Lootscaling be removed after the new Rtm policy? - Guild Wars Guru archive powered by Guild Wars Legacy

mr_groovy

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jun 2006

Netherlands

No Inherent Effect [NiE]

19 Mar 2008 at 07:37 - 1

So in the last update we know that Anet has capability to ip-ban accounts.
Real-Money Trading Policy
And we all know the only reason Lootscaling was introduced, was because of these goldwebsites.

So the question now is if or when 90% of all these gold websites are removed from the game, what purpose does lootscaling still have?

Discuss, and Don't flame.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++

Little update:

Tmakinen on post 383 made a nice clean conculsion:

Quote:

Originally Posted by tmakinen

Ok, there seems to be some confusion about what will happen if LS is lifted. Let's consider the effects one item at a time.

Fixed price items (from a merchant) will become effectively cheaper because you need less time to gather the given amount of money.

Collector weapons and armor will become effectively cheaper because you need less time to gather the collectable drops.

Common crafting materials will become effectively cheaper because the inflation of money is offset by greater production of materials.

Standard armor, weapons and consumables will become effectively cheaper (a combination of fixed price and common materials effects).

Rare crafting materials will become more expensive by absolute price but remain at the same or a bit lower value when counted by playing time needed to acquire them (the decrease being caused by expert salvage from common drops).

Prestige armor and other items requiring rare crafting materials will become more expensive by absolute price but less expensive by playing time needed to acquire them.

Vanity items will become more expensive by absolute price but remain at the same value when counted by playing time needed to acquire them.

People with lots of actual money will become relatively poorer in comparison to other players.

People with lots of ecto will stay as rich as before relative to other players.

Poor people will have better chances at becoming rich people.

In all the casual & the high end player reap the benefits

Foe

Banned

Join Date: Mar 2006

19 Mar 2008 at 07:44 - 2

yes plz, it was sold as necessary evil to combat bots. Everyone hates it, bring back solo fun. It didnt do a RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing thing to stop them then and we still have it so who knows.

Lagg

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jun 2005

W/

19 Mar 2008 at 07:46 - 3

Might be enough of an incentive for me to start playing again, now that all my friends have quit.

Brianna

Insane & Inhumane

Join Date: Feb 2006

19 Mar 2008 at 07:49 - 4

I think I'd actually farm if Loot Scaling was taken out, but I doubt it.

However.. I think that it would have the Bot Companies digging through the doors with their finger nails.. So who knows, may be too soon to say anything about it since we haven't really seen the long-term effects of this new change.

Snow Bunny

Alcoholic From Yale

Join Date: Jul 2007

Strong Foreign Policy [sFp]

19 Mar 2008 at 07:50 - 5

Groovy, I think you and I both know that Gold sellers will find ways around this.

I'd like lootscaling to be removed as well, but unless ANet with 100% certainty can remove bots/sellers it should stay in place as a necessary evil.

mr_groovy

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jun 2006

Netherlands

No Inherent Effect [NiE]

19 Mar 2008 at 07:57 - 6

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snow Bunny

Groovy, I think you and I both know that Gold sellers will find ways around this.

I'd like lootscaling to be removed as well, but unless ANet with 100% certainty can remove bots/sellers it should stay in place as a necessary evil.

Certainly true Bunny that's why I say 90% of them

. Can I live with 10% gold sellers remaining, and everytime they get caught they are Ip-banned? Yes I can.

MaDDoG1221

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Sep 2007

Perth, Australia

DOTR

D/

19 Mar 2008 at 08:00 - 7

Course theyll find away around it, but im sure Anet will then prevent it

kestrelsalight

Pre-Searing Cadet

Join Date: Jan 2006

US

Bad Wolf Corporation [WOLF]

N/

19 Mar 2008 at 08:03 - 8

Yes, please!

It would be great to see the concept of loot scaling revisited and hopefully removed in light of this update...

Dr Strangelove

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Dec 2005

Wasting away again in Margaritaville

[HOTR]

19 Mar 2008 at 08:05 - 9

I actually kinda like the deflation, since I don't farm.

mr_groovy

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jun 2006

Netherlands

No Inherent Effect [NiE]

19 Mar 2008 at 08:11 - 10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr Strangelove

I actually kinda like the deflation, since I don't farm.

That can be true, but look at it this way. If you want to get let's say skills,consumables, 1k or 15K armor. These items are not effected by deflation.

xLeo

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Feb 2008

19 Mar 2008 at 08:16 - 11

Now 90%+ of the bot users are gone, there will be less concern over prices crashing aswell.

tmakinen

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Nov 2005

www.mybearfriend.net

Servants of Fortuna [SoF]

E/

19 Mar 2008 at 08:48 - 12

Well, something should be done since everything is worth dirt right now. There is an insufficient influx of new gold into the economy, pressing down prices of player traded goods. That in itself is not a bad or a good thing. Previously you farmed one hour, got 50k and bought an item for 50k. Now you farm one hour, get 10k and buy the same item for 10k. Where it does matter, however, is that some of the essential commodities come at fixed prices. If you deflate the economy five-fold, you essentially increase the commodity prices five-fold as well (where one hour of work granted you a full stack of ale before, now one hour is worth 50 ales only). When thinking of titles that require an investment of several millions, before the big deflation these required a good deal of dedication but the requirements were reasonably sane. With the current economy the requirements are grossly out of proportions. Mind you, I'm not saying that they are impossible, even without old saving from a happier era, just directly affected by the economy.

angmar_nite

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Feb 2007

[SNOW] of [YUM]

E/

19 Mar 2008 at 08:49 - 13

To everyone who likes cheaper prices, while yes you can get your rare items a few hundred k cheaper now, A LOT of it doesn't scale from consumables to 15k armors.

Da Tru Legend

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Jul 2006

Light of Honor [Lite]

A/

19 Mar 2008 at 08:56 - 14

Because Ursan doesn't make PvE easy enough, we need to remove lootscaling? Mmhmm, ok. And anyway, it'll only widen the gap between the low-end economy and the ultra-high-end economy. Anything that drops will drop in price, and Asian minipets will stay the same, or rise. I don't mind that TOO much, but...weapons are nice too. I'd just rather not see the Voltaic Spear go from 100k+80e to 100g+80k. Nearly everything cheap = FTL.

~Tru

Rothen Kithkanan

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Apr 2006

Between a rock and a hard place

Pah, who needs guilds?

E/

19 Mar 2008 at 08:56 - 15

I'm undecided. If they remove the lootscaling, prices will rise which will alienate any new players joining the game (sure there's not many but there are some) as they wont be able to afford everything. It’s kinda like a vicious circle. At the moment prices are low so all can benefit but the long running players aren’t happy. Remove loot scaling, lots of gold so the long running players are happy but the new guys aren't. I don’t think this is one Anet can win. Personally i dont really mind either way as i have sufficient funds to get me by.

Fril Estelin

So Serious...

Join Date: Jan 2007

London

Nerfs Are [WHAK]

E/

19 Mar 2008 at 08:58 - 16

It's a good idea, but if I was Anet, I'd implement it only when I had the proof that this new anti-RMT policy worked. So give it, say, a month and if RMT bots are almost gone, they may give us their loot! w00t

BTW GG Anet!

Rushin Roulette

Forge Runner

Join Date: Sep 2007

Right here

Ende

19 Mar 2008 at 09:08 - 17

Deffinitely

Aas im going for the wisdom title (like many others) I think it would be fair to either scale the requirement down for this (as it used to be way easier to complete the title without loot scaling), or get rid of loot scaling, because it did not stop the bots and Anet is trying a different method.

Iuris

Forge Runner

Join Date: Nov 2006

Crazy ducks from the Forest

W/

19 Mar 2008 at 09:13 - 18

Loot scaling was not implemented to counter real money trading. It was implemented to prevent the imbalance of income between a solo farmer and a group player, as a solo farmer was earning so much gold that a group player could not enter the economy.

So, in my opinion, the loot scaling should NOT be removed.

Shanaeri Rynale

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Aug 2005

DVDF(Forums)

Me/N

19 Mar 2008 at 09:17 - 19

I think we all know the answer will be "no it wont be" why make it easier for the bots to make money before they are zapped.

Awakener

Academy Page

Join Date: Mar 2006

Australia

Templars of the Apocalypse [Zoso]

N/

19 Mar 2008 at 09:24 - 20

I was for LootScaling in the beginning, due to Bot Farmers..
Now with 'most' of them gone, removing LS will now help players who farm casually..

Randvek

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Sep 2006

Rise From the Ashes [phnx]

W/

19 Mar 2008 at 09:32 - 21

Yes, though I can think of plenty of instances in which things were nerfed to combat a problem, the problem was later removed, and the nerf remained.

Then again, when enough people complain about farming, it's been shown to make a difference.

mr_groovy

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jun 2006

Netherlands

No Inherent Effect [NiE]

19 Mar 2008 at 09:35 - 22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iuris

Loot scaling was not implemented to counter real money trading. It was implemented to prevent the imbalance of income between a solo farmer and a group player, as a solo farmer was earning so much gold that a group player could not enter the economy.

So, in my opinion, the loot scaling should NOT be removed.

That was just a side effect. Loot scaling was implemented for gold bots.
If it was true that they had something against farming, then "Repeated map entry no longer reduces loot" in Update april 2007 wouldn't make sence.

prism2525

Forge Runner

Join Date: Nov 2005

Among dead bodies.

The Republic of Sky Pirates

E/

19 Mar 2008 at 09:44 - 23

I say give it a month or two and see how it plays out.

If it works they should remove it or at LEAST half its effect. You have no idea how hard it is to find the trophies needed for certain quests with LS on.

SirSausage

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Feb 2008

Poland

Architects of Forgotten Truths [AoFT]

W/Mo

19 Mar 2008 at 09:47 - 24

Now that the bots won't be able to log in, LS should be removed.
IMO it's a shame, that real players have to suffer the consequences of botting.

Fril Estelin

So Serious...

Join Date: Jan 2007

London

Nerfs Are [WHAK]

E/

19 Mar 2008 at 09:56 - 25

If the anti-RMT features are successful, not only does Loot Scaling no longer makes sense, but reverting it may allow to catch the last few botters (I guess without loot scaling they had insane amounts of gold).

Let's give Anet some time now to action this, and do not forget to report the last few bots! (I hope they add the RMT reason to the report function)[/I]

TideSwayer

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jul 2005

We Farm Your [?????????s]

19 Mar 2008 at 09:56 - 26

The main problem for me with lootscaling in effect is how BORING farm runs are now. It's simply not fun to kill a bunch of creatures and get 2-3 drops. I don't care if there were legit inflation concerns or not (rare minis are worth MORE now than they were the day LS was implemented so ......... no), but it's simply not fun. The reason why builds like the 600 Smite Monk/Monk team have become popular of late is because you can take on practically entire zones with it, and killing that many mobs is bound to fill up your inventory sooner or later, lootscaling or not. Normal farm runs don't. They used to. Add in the problems that have plagued LS since inception such as killing too many mobs at once reduces drops (the "rate of kill" bug), and the fact that money titles (and titles are what ANet wants everyone to work on these days, right?) are harder to get now than they were before lootscaling due to the lesser-money vs. fixed cost issues.

ANet can go ahead and keep the slower rate of income gain via farming, but people make more sitting in town buying and reselling high-end items than all the poorer players would ever make by farming w/o LS. The main problem is that most of the people who are able to buy/resell the asian minis, new rare skins, etc., are those who made their fortunes years ago when money was easier to come by (note I didn't say quicker, just easier), while the majority of the newer playerbase is left out in the cold. Playing the game normally gives you more money than before, but it's still laughable amounts. The zone vanquish payout is godawful, especially for the average time it takes to do a vanquish.

Most of us have more or less finished up what we want to do in the game. We're all sitting around trying to amuse ourselves waiting for GW2, and sorry to say, getting 2-3 drops during a short farm run isn't going to be enough. I don't know if LS should be removed entirely, but ANet would be wise to consider amends to the current droprates, and especially the prices of fixed items such as spells and picks/keys. Spells, for sure. Cap sigs too. (and where are the cap sig tomes?)

O Nuxtofulakas

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jan 2006

Did u check your closet?

N/

19 Mar 2008 at 09:59 - 27

1) game economy suffered a lot to destroy it once again...

2) there is no need to give a BIG incentive to gold sellers to break the system and find "holes" that can exploit it...

3) there is no need to create a new generation of "human bots" that farm trolls all day long

4) golds, rare mats etc etc, are not affected from loot scaling. so those looking for rares and mention title hunting are not affected by that

anet don't rise again the problems of the past..

Fril Estelin

So Serious...

Join Date: Jan 2007

London

Nerfs Are [WHAK]

E/

19 Mar 2008 at 10:01 - 28

Loot scaling is not synonym with farming or anti-farm code. Though obviously it has an impact on farming, removing LS would simply allow you to get more drops when simply playing! Meaning, it could actually put less stress on farming (or make you farm every time you play, depending on your point of view) but it could also, more importantly, enable casual players (for the others, would it make a lot of difference?) to get more easily the elite armors for example. The impact on the economy is not obvious, because people could use the increase in money in gold sinks, rather than reinject it in the economy (so price increase would not meet a lower demand and we could go back to the pre-bots economy?).

Koning

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jan 2006

19 Mar 2008 at 10:02 - 29

I've missed the farming (and how fun it could be) and maybe I'll start again if I can actually make a profit out of it.

ragnagard

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Jul 2007

In Spain, of course

Gamer Espa??ol[GE]

N/Mo

19 Mar 2008 at 10:03 - 30

For sure, it should.
As i always said.. if its was tool to prevent bot farming it failed, critically. There were bots, there are (till recent updates) a lot of bots / gold selling.
If a better solution is implemented (and last update looks like that) non-working solutions should be removed.

This act can cause a increase on prices.. but just the same as incoming drop.
Merchant things will be at the same price,armors will be just from 75g to 15k till now. Materials will vary a bit. Skills to

Then... tell me what a newcomer need:
* armor? same price, maybe up/down caused by materials.
* weapons? same price, maybe up/down caused by materials.
* skills? starting from 50g to 1k ea.

Or you were thinking about minipets for the newc.?

A newcomer should do the storyline to enjoy the game AND after that (or great part of it), farm if he/she wants. And if succesfull, he/she will get some more things.

Even without farming, drops while doing the storyline (for farming haters or something like) like golden items will worth more, as mods will do.

Really dont see the point of still having it.

S_Serpent

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Feb 2006

When not at Aziure's Wizard Tower you can find my in Belgium

Knigths of the Keyboard Order - KkO

19 Mar 2008 at 10:13 - 31

was worst update, but since bots and gold sellers now can be id-ed easier and banned we don't need loot scaling anymore

DivineEnvoy

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Sep 2005

Me/P

19 Mar 2008 at 10:13 - 32

I'm not supporting loot-scaling, but I have a few questions.

Didn't Anet introduce loot-scaling to promote gameplay with full parties instead of gameplay with merely soloing?

As far as I can tell, this new policy only limits the possibilities of the returns of these accounts that are used for these companies. And as for the block for the use of open proxy, it doesn't eliminate all the accounts that are used for the given purpose. It is still questionable how Anet will obtain these IP addresses, which are used for the blacklist, unless they have first identified the IP addresses that are used by bot users. In short, this policy does not terminate all the bots or gold-selling companies, but instead, this policy will further protect the game from these violators, or so it is believed. Haven't we jumped into the conclusion that this policy will remove all the violators, which loot-scaling can be removed due to this assumption?

If Anet removes loot-scaling, wouldn't they just add certain unwanted features such as the old Farming Code or the AI settings that inhibit most farming builds back into the game?

I have to point out; before the introduction of loot-scaling, there were several updates that changed the outputs of items that are farmed. For example, initially, rare monster armors can consist a minor rune or a major rune as well as a superior rune, which lowered the supplies of these superior runes. Nonetheless, it was later changed so that rare monster armors will only consist of superior runes. If Anet removes loot-scaling, will it really impact the game to the direction many people believe it would?

TideSwayer

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jul 2005

We Farm Your [?????????s]

19 Mar 2008 at 10:15 - 33

Not sure if i'm trying to make a positive point or a negative point here, just something that all the "LS be gone!!!!!!" people need to consider:

ANet raised the droprate of golds and rares when they put LS into the game, and they'd almost certainly lower it in the theoretical sense of it ever being removed. Just because every dead creature would drop something doesn't mean a raptor run would give you all 3 ele swords, 2 gold jagged reavers, and 5 purples a run. You'll be getting 13 saurian bones and a white lesser jagged reaver. Maybe once every couple of weeks you'll get that nice gold or inscription. Basically, farm runs would be garbage runs once again. You'll almost certainly have to go to town and buy most of the skins/mods you want. People would farm to make money to go to town and buy the skins that a couple people in a giant crowd were lucky enough to get. Everyone gets elemental swords now doing raptor runs. Could you deal with only getting white trash most of the time while maybe 1 person out of 500 is lucky enough to get that r11 ele sword drop? Serious question here. It would certainly make skins more rare if LS was removed and droprates were inevitably lowered. Is that honestly what most of you who hate LS believe the economy needs right now?

Also, if ANet lowered the prices of keys/picks, they'd almost certainly be forced to raise the purple rate out of chests too. There are checks and balances to everything. Are getting your garbage farm runs back that important? FWIW, I really hate the EotN way of doing things, where most of the unique skins come out of dungeon end chests only, and not out of the normal chests in the dungeon along the way (and not as drops from monsters along the way either).

Hell Raiser

Forge Runner

Join Date: Dec 2005

[PHNX]

Mo/

19 Mar 2008 at 10:15 - 34

For me, the drops always kept me from getting bored (hyped me up) back in the good 'ol days. Now if you kill a mob of 20 enemies, you get like 3 drops, that are almost always white. Wtf. So /signed.

PS: /congrats to Anet for finding a way to stop bots without having a huge affect on players (assuming it'll work).

papryk

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Feb 2006

Nancy

The Autonomy[?????????]

19 Mar 2008 at 10:22 - 35

Quote:

Originally Posted by DivineEnvoy

Didn't Anet introduce loot-scaling to promote gameplay with full parties instead of gameplay with merely soloing?

and to promote gameplay with full parties they introduced heroes?

TideSwayer

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jul 2005

We Farm Your [?????????s]

19 Mar 2008 at 10:31 - 36

Quote:

Originally Posted by DivineEnvoy

If Anet removes loot-scaling, wouldn't they just add certain unwanted features such as the old Farming Code or the AI settings that inhibit most farming builds back into the game?

Farm code would almost certainly return in full force. Most farming is done in hard mode anyways, and the AI there is still as scatter-heavy as it ever was at any time.

ragnagard

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Jul 2007

In Spain, of course

Gamer Espa??ol[GE]

N/Mo

19 Mar 2008 at 10:35 - 37

Quote:

Originally Posted by DivineEnvoy

Didn't Anet introduce loot-scaling to promote gameplay with full parties instead of gameplay with merely soloing?

How many times you see now, with LS turned on, pugs/ guildparties going together to farm into an explorable area if not on DOA?

Quote:

Originally Posted by DivineEnvoy

If Anet removes loot-scaling, wouldn't they just add certain unwanted features such as the old Farming Code or the AI settings that inhibit most farming builds back into the game?

Someones (and me too) think that this (anti farm code) is happening right now, even when we were told that it wont happen. I wont say this would change or be noticeable.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TideSwayer

... doesn't mean a raptor run would give you all 3 ele swords, 2 gold jagged reavers, and 5 purples a run. You'll be getting 13 saurian bones and a white lesser jagged reaver. Maybe once every couple of weeks you'll get that nice gold or inscription. Basically, farm runs would be garbage runs once again. You'll almost certainly have to go to town and buy most of the skins/mods you want. People would farm to make money to go to town and buy the skins that a couple people in a giant crowd were lucky enough to get. Everyone gets elemental swords now doing raptor runs. Could you deal with only getting white trash most of the time while maybe 1 person out of 500 is lucky enough to get that r11 ele sword drop?

Yeah that will be a perfect world where you got real cash from crap instead nothing and... 1 saurian bone. And btw.. lootscaling doesnt work the same way now? *Cough* DAW skins that are dropped*cough* serpentine reaver *cough*
And.. tell me... a rare skin, shouldnt be rare? I am one of the people that thinks that paying >100k for a weapon is a madness, so i dont like rares. But that's the "rare" meaning, something you can't get easily.

Same opinion as you with EotN new skins... should be dropped, greens or anything but 1 hour-to-try

Arduin

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: May 2005

The Netherlands

Limburgse Jagers [LJ]

R/

19 Mar 2008 at 10:39 - 38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hell Raiser

For me, the drops always kept me from getting bored (hyped me up) back in the good 'ol days. Now if you kill a mob of 20 enemies, you get like 3 drops, that are almost always white. Wtf. So /signed.

The only drops that are affected by loot scaling are commons and gold (money) drops. The stuff you are farming for, be it Ecto, Gems, Destroyer Cores, Rare Weapons, Party Stuff are exempt.

So you didn't get anything better than those three drops, but this had nothing to do with loot scaling.

-----

If anything, the bug concerning killing lots of creatures at once should be removed. If I kill 20 foes at the same time, why should my drops be 10 times worse compared to killing them 1 by 1?

Phaern Majes

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Sep 2005

Anywhere but up

The Panserbjorne [ROAR]

R/Mo

19 Mar 2008 at 10:41 - 39

Considering that I don't think loot scaling should have ever been implemented, I'll agree with removing it.

Sleeper Service

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Dec 2005

CULT

19 Mar 2008 at 10:46 - 40

No, It was neither bots nor goldsellers that was pushing prices up.

it was farmers, gimmick builds and greedy players.

the "economy" is fine now we can all get what we want for a reasonable trade in time spent.