Should Lootscaling be removed after the new Rtm policy?

YES. THE SAME.

If design is the very reason, then player decision has nothing to do here.

Is not something that can change. Is something that will not. Thy are making GW2 because some things cannot be done.

Allowing a few players take economic advantage for doing something not supported that can be done with some professions over those that just play normally the way the game was designed to be played is something that will never happen. /breath

When they added HM they replaced the anti-farm code with lootscalling. That was a change in design due to a change in the game.

Since the addition of LS there has been absolutely no change that would allow to remove LS without bringing up the difference between farmers and not farmers. And even with the new RMT policies is not completely possible to remove all bots and keep track of all the gold forcibly inserted into into the game.

It's starting to sound like a joke, you know. Like most characters seen in Idiocracy.

Many people, and ANet claim that they listen to players feedback and respond to it.

Never say never.

Yes. When doing Prophecies storyline only, it's near impossible to get the cash for the droks armour if you buy new armour at every outpost (Like you SHOULD do as a Casual Player, else you get overrun by the stronger monsters in new areas).
What does LA have to do with anything I said?
What does HM have to do with the LS? If the LS gets removed in HM, no more Tomes, Golds or scrolls would drop there, only non-max damage white weapons. HM would be the same as NM, but then with a bit more exemption-list items.
If you payed better attention, you would've seen that prices have been dropping since the beginning of Guild Wars, and only went/stayed up if the drop rate for that item has been nerfed in any way, or if the item stayed very popular. Every time a farm run gets nerfed, the price of that item goes up. Just look at Loot Scaling - It drove prices up of items to the point where no1 could buy.

In this situation, however, NO1 is getting money. Before the LS, people farmed. It was a fun thing to do, made outposts lively, it was easy and relaxing, and a nice way to earn cash. I never heard ANYONE complaining about the state of the economy back then, except for the crazily overpriced items like Crystalline Swords, Sup Absorption etc. Why? Because EVERYTHING was obtainable by EVERYONE. Sure, it didn't take just a day, but anyone that wasn't terribly lazy could've become rich back then.

Now, only the Hardcore farmers become rich, and the casual players have no choice but to only play the storyline and stay poor. The fact that YOU don't want casual farmers to become rich proves that I shouldn't take your arguments too seriously. You have no reason to care what other people have or don't have, except if you're an elitist who doesn't want others to have fun.

That's right. I was retorting to an insult from your side. So yeah, maybe my problem is that I can't let people insult me without reprisal.

But sure, focus on my retorts instead. I didnt see you responding to any of my posts earlier when I explained why LS is a good system until I started fighting back. Funny how that is.

whoaaaaa way too many pages to read..... but in the end, maybe ANET will listen

You mean like DoA farming, UW/FoW runs, Raptor farming, Glacial Stones runs- all the other farm runs of these days?

Uhu, better check out the current situation of the game. It's funny that you said it this way, cause casual farming IS something that can be done by ANY profession, by ANY casual player, at ANY time, while all farm-runs of nowadays fullfill your exact description.

Again, farming IS supported by A-Net. If Guild Wars didn't support farming, they'd remove the drop system and just give everyone a steady bonus after doing certain events. That way everyone gets the same and no farming is needed. There are countless of simple things A-Net could've done to prevent solo-farming, yet they didn't. A-Net might not totally support Solo-Farming, but they're not against it, either.

Oh, my bad, let me read your post again in light of this. If I recall, the post you responded to asked if you had played before the loot nerf (not really an insult was it?)

Nope, sorry, I can't see the point you are making that you think I should respond to. Can you spell it out again so I can respond, all I can see is your insulting. Please try without the insults this time, it might help me to spot your point.

Starter -> Pre-Searing Collectors -> Post-Searing Ascalon armorer (dude on the right) -> (can't remember anything in Northern Shiverpeaks or Kryta) -> Maguuma Collectors -> Desert Collectors (for max) is how I progressed.

Didn't really care for the looks of Platemail, Tyrian or Wyvern, so I didn't bother upgrading right away - I didn't spot the second armorer for a few days, but I had more than enough money to afford the armor (5k) and the leather squares ( another 5k) I needed (already had the iron and steel) right away.

Hardly difficult to get the money by that point. Maybe if you get yourself run through the Desert and so aren't poking around to find the Missions and therefore not getting stuff to merch... (and it's quite worthwhile to do so, I've found) Got distracted by EotN, so haven't progressed much further in Proph, but with 47p in the bank, I'll be getting Asuran armor as soon as I hit r5 (which I'm currently liking better than the 15k's I've seen for Warriors),

Loot scaling atm is not a bot restriction anymore. If you look at the new farms that have arisen since the day it was implemented, you'd understand there's no going back without a serious redesign of several farms.
Raptors would be a perfect example of this. In 30-60seconds, you can kill 30+ enemies in HM (compared to the old 1-3min troll farm that got 10-20 enemies). If lootscaling were to be removed, a farm like that would cause chaotic inflation. It's already one of the most popular farmings runs in the game right now, and people aren't limiting their farming just to event weekends. If people were to get non lootscaled drops doing this run, they could easily fill their invintory with 50-100g whites amongst the other drops in several runs (I would typically get 3-5 items in an average run, this number would be as much as eight times greater). This would of course atract even more farmers back to mass aggro runs and worsen the problem even more. The gap between the casual and hardcore gamer would once again be divided as prices on most everything would undoubtedly skyrocket.

As much as we would all love to see lootscaling removed, it's just not practical with the newer farms that have opened up. Even if bots were completely shut out from the game, it would still wreck havock on an already fragile economy.

Maybe you need glasses since you missed the part where he/she said "ignorance is bliss", which I responded to obviously.

Which part of "my prior posts" do you not understand? It doesnt just mean only one previous post. But this is just silly. You're again, focusing on me rather than the issue itself. But I guess it's easy to shoot the messenger if you don't like the message. LS IS HERE TO STAY, whether you like it or not.

Its just so hard to figure out what is a point, what is a rant, what is flat wrong and what is an insult in your posts. If you would like to make your points more rationally so that we can see what they are then please go ahead.

Saying LS is here to stay isn't a point, and it may even not be correct, if you are so sure of that, why are you even bothering here? I am here because I believe it can change.

And if my posts are so pointless as you claim, why do you keep responding? And stating that LS is here to stay is indeed a point, there's plenty of indication that it won't change, one being that ANET has not commented at all on it and pretty much ignoring it. It's just that it's a point that you don't agree with.

THAT'S your point?

OMG lol

ROFL

Crap, so when I made it through Prophecies without buying every armor I did it wrong. My bad.

You claimed farming was the only way to make money. Lion's Arch is one of those areas where people magically make money without solely farming.

They were implemented in the same update; loot scaling was not the only update that day. One change offers better drops, the other reduces drops. Hey, there might be a relationship between the two. I'll let you know how they're related as soon as I figure out what 2 + 2 equals.

As opposed to a "OMG ROFL lol" post having a better point?

The calmer cooler heads have tried to explain why LS is needed and why it's better for the average player but it's fallen on deaf ears. So hey, pointing out that the there's a very low possibility that ANET is even considering taking LS out or even acknowledging the possibility seemed like an easier option to explain to the mob. I guess not.

No - Pls don't remove lootscaling Anet. Remove the things that are broken, such as Ursan and consumables. Then you will have an interesting game again...

Sure you do. You ignore points right and left. Like this one, that you refuse to address, over and over:

" You guys still ignore points like these too:

1) Zones with an 8 character limit were intended for a large party. It's poor game design to allow them to be cleared with one. Anet has a right to make sure their original vision is adhered to - or at least limit the incentive to work around their vision. They chose to continue to allow some solo play while making it less of an exploit.

2) People are still making plenty of money.

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10173135

See this thread? People are doing just fine. AFAIK, nobody on the LS-removal side of the debate has addressed this point. Why?"

I prefer playing in groups of 8.

What I want to know is why aren't people proposing that my playing style be rewarded? What makes you anti-LS people so damn special? Why should your playing style get INSANE rewards while mine keeps me poor? You guys sound like supreme elitists. If you want more cash flow in the game, fine. But don't link it to YOUR playing style while shafting (relatively speaking) all the people who play as the designers intended.

Nobody ever seems to want to address this point.

designers didnt intend it that way though. and besides, we cant go through the whole game by ourselves. farming isn't a playstyle.

Farming is a play sytle though. Anet even went as far as to recognize it as such, when they took steps to limit it.

And this, right here, reveals the pathological side of communism in a very succint way. If I'm not earning insane amounts of money then nobody else should either. Down with the choice! Down with opportunities! Down with capitalist elitist pigs! Down with wealth, make everybody as poor as I am.

It always amazes me that when there's a choice of advancing opportunities and wealth, or repression and poverty, there's a substantial number of people who choose the latter.

Because to the clueless they had been answered 1000's of times before. But since you seem to have missed it this is the last time I'll reiterate it jsut for you.

1.) If Anet had intended you to go out in zones the would have put a restriction on the minimum number allowed to leave the outposts. Instead Anet left it up to the players to decide how they wanted to play the game giving them the options. Nice try on you claim on that one.


2.) Yeap do you realize what it takes to actually make what they are making in that thread. Also goes to show that the so called gap that some of you are trying to say is closing really isnt. But let me put it to you in this way. If I wasnt working on another game. YES ACTUALLY WORKING ON A GAME. I would have cleared about 3 million over the weekend. What about you. I guarantee you there is no way in hell the gap is closing between me(hardcore farmer type) and people that are causual. With LS in place it will never happen. So much for that theory too about closing the gap between hardcore and causual players huh.




And those hoping and wishing for LS to be in GW2 are gonna be in for a major rude awaking cause its not gonna happen, considering the system of play is going to be similar to WoW. But the best thing Anet could do to fix the whole problem of people whinning about how "FLEA MARKET ITEMS WHERE AND ARE EXPENSIVE" is also the best way to end bots and gold selling, to bad anet wont be smart enough to do it. REMOVE THE ABILITY TO TRADE WITH OTHER PLAYERS PERMANTLY. Remove LS leave out AFC stop all player trading. END OF BOTS and GOLD SELLING.

Ok, even if LS was removed you're still going to get the same amount of drops you are getting now, since LS doesn't affect partys of 8...With LS removed you can get your drops in partys of 8 and while people who enjoy farming can get their drops in partys of 1. Think about it, not every zone can be farmed, which means the farmers are tied to specific zones with specific drops, while someone in a party of 8 is not tied to X farming zones, and has access to basically any loot they like.

Holy cow. You have it completely backwards.

Removing LS will remove choices. It will force the poor and average players who don't farm to having to farm just to keep up with inflation, whereas the current LS system, you don't have to farm and still make decent wealth. I'm one example of this.

Why should people be forced to play a playstyle that they don't want? With LS, people don't have to farm but farmers can STILL farm and make money. Anyone claiming that they can't earn a living from farming under LS is a big fat liar.

LS isnt about forcing poverty on people, it's keeping the hardcore wealthy farmers in check. That bull claiming that LS is there to keep everyone poor is idiotic. Obviously, farmers are STILL making more wealth than non farming average joes.

Now stop playing the victim. It's a lie and it's pathetic.

You're still claiming inflation on flea market items. You were never forced to pay those prices. Heres a little something I picked up 6 months into GW for 7k ( minus the sundering mod)


and now lets see what I picked up just prior to NF for 5k each(except the crystalinne sword that cost me a whole 30k)

that doesnt include the odd 6 or 7 I have given to friends.

Yeap everything was so outrageous



ANd the ones that are trying to play victims are you and others like you. and your right its pathetic

In a model where "advancing opportunities and wealth" is the equivalent of printing more money, and "repression and poverty" is the equivalent of not allowing everyone to own their own money printing press, I think chosing "repression and poverty" is the sensible choice.

Do you see how you contradict yourself there? Without LS you have the choice of (1) either playing 'normally' and easily getting everything that you need to complete a campaign, or (2) farming or (3) trading for better income to get some vanity items. LS makes farming a non-option, ergo, it removes choice. Removing LS wouldn't force anybody to farm gold to be able to complete the game, claiming that is just silly. It would force people to do some work for vanity items, though. You don't want people to have a choice of doing something more profitable than you do, and that's fine and dandy. Just be aware what it is called.

Victim? Who, me? Did you even read what I wrote? My current - sustainable - average income is a bit over 100k per day, thank you very much, and it is fully sufficient for what I want to do before GW2 comes out. Loot Scaling doesn't have any effect on my game experience, so your weak attempt at dismissing my point not only misses the mark, it never even finds the general direction

I'm not whining. I'm not demanding that LS should be removed. I'm just pointing out inconsistencies and odd ideological constructs that people use to forward their agenda.

You're forgetting something critical: unlike in the real world, in the game world there's a fixed price market with unlimited supply of commodities. Thus your conclusion fails

Quoted. For emphasis.

It would fail if there were only fixed prices and only unlimited commodities, but since there aren't, it doesn't fail.

The fixed price market provides everything that is essential for the completion of the game. The price of a mini polar bear has absolutely zero relevance to the gaming experience of a casual player.

You would only have a case if skills, armor and weapons bought from NPCs would be priced to reflect the current total amount of wealth in the game. Since this is not the case, your logic fails. Also remember that LS makes it harder to obtain collector armor and weapons which should be the first choice of any mendicant hero wannabe.

Please remember that LS does not affect prices. Attitude affects prices. If the members of a market allow themselves to be influenced into believing that they need a certain item in order to be happy, cool, leet, whatever then the sellers will be able to charge whatever they want.

If the members of the same market choose not to pay 100k+xxxe then the sellers will not charge that much. We are talking about non-necessities here and so all market power lies with the buyer unless the buyer base allows their attitudes to be manipulated. I was offered 100k+200 ectos for my req 9 silverwing recurve bow...I laughed. Nothing in this game is worth the time required to accumulate that much "wealth".

If you let others tell you what you should have or must have to be happy/cool/etc. then you will have surrendered a degree of control over yourself that is just plain wrong.

Or at least thats my opinion.

True, to an extent. That is the 'demand' part of the much talked about 'supply and demand' economic theory.

That sounds good in theory but in practice there is a phenomenon called 'Tragedy of the Commons'. Whenever there is a limited supply of a commodity, the rational path of action for any individual is to act selfishly. If there are not enough commodities for everybody inclined to obtain one, your best bet for a successful purchase will be to offer more than others are offering. This process will escalate until the average desire to get the item will meet the average willingness to part with currency and a balance is established.

No. It is allowed, permitted, but not supported. Just like running and rushing missions.
They are neither against neither in favour of farming. But will never make anything to make it easier, only harder when it is too much profitable, like they made in some farming spots. You know which ones.

If they supported farming, monsters would be in rows, had 1HP and run directly to you without attacking to die one by one.

And for all those other places where professions had advantage... well... Ursan Blessing says hello.

Inscriptions, that where added a bit before hard mode and LS. Affected prices quite much making many of them much closer to the intended prices: 1..100k.
Anyone against LS just want more cash at the expense of those that do not farm. That is, forcing other to do something they are not supposed to do.

Sometimes the gree... ahem, I mean the trees do not let you see the forest.

I have well over a million gold in the bank, half a dozen sets of 15k armor, and a lot of other swank loot.

And I've never solo farmed a day in my life.

See how utterly ignorant you look when you assume things? You lost all your credit right there IMO.

1) Of course Anet allowed fewer than 8 players in a zone. That doesn't mean then they were designing Fissure of Woe that they were intending it be be runnable by a single medic. Stop suggesting that Anet designed their game to be solo'd. Your logic fails at every turn. They're perfectly justified in closing the loophole in their game (or partially closing it as they did).

They listened to what players liked, and compromised on it by creating LS. You all would rather keep exploiting their game rather than have any kind of compromise. And here you are over a year later STILL unable to accept it.

2) Huh? Everyone can make nice money nowadays. Some people on that thread posted crazy amounts, but I'm mostly referring to the folks that are making 15k-25k per hour CURRENTLY. So you see? With this kind of income there's no need to remove, LS.

And holy crap, you say you could have made 3 MILLION this weekend? And you still want LS removed? You completely just killed your own argument, lol.

3) You merely speculate about what will be in GW2. My speculation is that they will make multi-character zones challenging enough to require multiple characters. I guarantee you they're not designing the game right now thinking "hmm... let's make this elite area REALLY hard - unless someone brings this one build then they can destroy everything in sight and get rich insanely quick".

gogo delete loot scalling

/signed

This is my point entirely. Without LS, YOUR playing style gives your EIGHT times the amount of income as mine.

This would impact non-solo farmers in huge ways. We wouldn't be able to afford nice things, while the solo farmer class would have access to almost anything they want. We have to play eight hours for every one you play in order to get nice armor, etc. Solo farmers get nice stuff, and trade that stuff to only other solo farmers because they're the only ones who can afford it.

An what they heck do you think makes you so special that your playing style should be rewarded and not mine? Who do you think you are to deserve special treatment? You're not playing any harder than me. You're not more dedicated.

Do you know how elitist and snobbish you sound when you say, "you can still go about your way of playing and be poor as hell while my way of playing makes me richer than you can ever hope to be."?

Geez, listen to yourself.

And on top of it, you're telling me that I should be happy that farmers are somewhat limited to specific drops? Soooooo elitist. We both know that the uber-richness you'd get solo farming means you could buy anything you want that I'm likely to find in an 8-man team.

Who do you think you're kidding with comments like that?

Indeed, but the presence of these essential items is completely immaterial to the notion of wealth accumulation, because the need for them is minimal, and anyone can have all he ever needs without participating in any economic process other than picking up loot, then cashing in and spending it at merchants. Adding money to the economy won't have an effect on the consumation of essential items. People won't consume more of them if they get more gold. They're practically subsidized; you get these essentials just for showing up and playing leisurely. (Reetkever will disagree of course, but he's a lonely voice in the night.) Essentials, and the gold spent on them can be eliminated from their respective sides of the equation. What's left after that is where the active economy starts, the non-static market.

Referring to marginal and extreme examples to prove a point doesn't make for a convincing argument, and this particular extreme is off the scale: the absolute minimum in utility coupled with the absolute maximum in price. I wish people would stop obfuscating this issue by bringing up the super-high-end minipets.

Wonder instead about the relevance of the price of perfect mods/inscriptions, low/mid-priced minipets, destroyer cores/glacial stones, dyes, ectoplasm, etc. The low-to-mid-end shinies, some of which can actually be considered essentials, like runes, insignias and greens and/or perfect mods for people wanting to PvP on their PvE characters. (Which incidentally also refutes the point that all essentials bear a fixed pricetag, without even trying.)

Since the basic influx of gold for active players meets and exceeds the need for these NPC-bought skills, armors and weapons, they play no significant role in the part of the economy affected by lootscaling, so my point stands. No one in practice even considers having many of these armors and weapons a mark of wealth. They're more often considered a mark of shame.

It makes it harder when you're solo farming for them now compared to when you were solo farming before lootscaling. Which isn't and never has been how most people go about acquiring them. In fact, when you're at the point that you can solo farm for them, you're very likely beyond the point that you have any need for them.

For all practical intents and purposes, farming without lootscaling would be equivalent to printing money. With lootscaling, farmers are mostly 'producing goods' (which a flourishing economy needs), while still 'printing' more money than non-farmers. A greater effort is still met with a greater reward of plain old gold, just not on a lineair scale. The only aspect of the economy that's stiffled by loot scaling is the ability to 'print money', and that's perfectly fine in my book.

/Notsigned.

Simply because it makes PvE noobs cry. To me, that's all the reason needed to keep Loot Scaling.