Should Lootscaling be removed after the new Rtm policy?

So you're saying you still make money even with LS? It can't be!!!

That's a 4/4 map >.>

So you would expect to see only 25% of mobs dropping items for a solo run? Not 90+% ? Please can you explain why the high drop rate makes a difference for a 4/4 map?

Is it more likely because of the low gold value of the drops?

I've experienced the same thing whenever I'm in an area I'm able to solo, regardless of what point of the game I'm at: far more loot (of all types) when I solo than when I go through the area with a full party.

The Pockmark Flats, for example: my E/Mo soloed, cleared out the passage from Serenity to the crater, then cleared the crater, and came away with at least 15 lodestones, not to mention a ton of whites (used up maybe 35 salvage charges).

My Me/E went through there a couple of days later for the same reason, but with a full party of henches, and got *2* lodestones for his trouble, and maybe 10 whites. Took them almost a half-hour of farming to get the 3rd lodestone needed for the 2nd geomancer quest...

And just yesterday my W/R soloed the Flame Temple Corridor (a popular spot, it seems :P) and used up 2 full salvage kits and the better part of a 3rd to get rid of all the whites.

Frankly, if this is what solo farming with loot scaling is like, solo farming without loot scaling must've been insanely profitable - and, frankly, makes me more certain than ever that loot scaling needs to stay.

EDIT: Hmm. Without clearing the top of the ziggurat in the FTC (didn't yesterday as well), I just got an ISV weapon, 94 common materials and 20 carvings (plus 15 party favors and 3 cheap dyes). Not too bad for soloing.

Do you deny that prices fell consistantly during the period before the loot nerf? Every time a new item is introduced into the game,the initial price is high and then if falls, it never goes up, it falls.

I am basing my point of view on facts, not opinion or projection, we know what will happen without the loot nerf, we had two very fine years of GW without it. It is not I making hystirical claims about run away inflation and extreme pricing when ALL the evicence proves that will not happen.

Actually no, wrong again, ANet "claimed" that they wanted to support farming, please read the dev notes before coming out with such rubbish to base your flawed opinions on, your FACTs are WRONG! ANet have repeately claimed to support farming as a valid playstyle in the game to say it was never supposed to happen is just silly. Let me help you, all quoted from the ANet dev release, there are numerous other places where similar messages are posted by ANet.

From Gaile news posted in variou splaces 20th/21st April 2007:
So you see, this does not cut through any of my arguments, but it does make yours look utterly ridiculous

I explained the LS mechanism a couple of pages ago. Rate of killing and merchant value of drops affects LS so if you're soloing starter areas in NM you'll be getting most of the drops - all drops if you observe certain guidelines. Reduced party size helps as well.

Have you managed to go as far as determining how much gold you are likely to get in a given map? That would be the merchant value of the drops and the total value of all gold money dropped.

Just curious.

Come on. you can do better than that. Its easy to come back with generalities. Lets have some evidence.

I told you. Evidence has been given. Plenty of it.
If someone just keep saying that there is no evidence, we go back to the lyrics:
"Just open your eyes and see".

The matter is over. Nothing else can be done if you refuse to see, and when you see, there will be no need to do anything else.

Again, a nice 'witty' response with no actual reasoning.

What are the truly game breaking negative connotations of life without LS?

You seem to like acting the smart-arse, so how about something to back up that front?

Anet decided to still allow solo farming in a more limited fashion. So they still support it. It's a nice compromise.

Regarding inflation, yes, if money in injected into the economy at an increased rate, inflation is the inevitable consequence.

You're looking at inflation backwards, from a demand perspective. Demand fluctuates based on a number of things. However, when there's a lot more money to go around, things will cost more, thus inflation.

Economics 101.

This is getting really silly.

anti LS give plenty of evidence to support the removal of said LS. i.e. inflation never existing

pro LS: your wrong, so there!

No it won't. The supply of 99% of most items in this game so overwhelmingly outstrips demand that prices will fall no matter if players farm occasionally or not. The evidence for this is all around you. Go to Kamadan and look at the trading window. Do a tally of WTS vs WTB.

Cab Tastic: Do you even know what is an inflation?

Please enlighten me.....

I have an A Level (UK qualification) in Economics. But do go ahead...

Inflation is a rise in the general nominal level of prices over time. It may also refer to a rise in the prices of a specific set of goods or services. In either case, it is measured as the percentage rate of change of a price index.

Here's a counter argument. This is the situation we had before the implementation of loot scaling. How is this not a case of inflation?

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10273477

Let's assume the supply to be large and fixed as you described there, although we have yet to determine whether it is true or not.
Consider this counter argument:
Before the removal of loot scaling, person A only has 200k in his storage, and when he's about to buy a green item, he wishes to pay 20k for it. After 30 minutes, no one sells him the green item, so he just waits a bit longer to find the seller. Of course, he can't rise his price, because he doesn't have as much money to waste in such manner.
After the removal of loot scaling, person A now have 600k in his storage, and when he's about to buy a green item, he wishes to pay 20k for it. After 30 minutes, no one sells him the green item, so he rises his price upto 60k to attract sellers.
With the addition amount of gold being shoved into the market, despite how large the supply factor is, prices for items will still increase simply because people want to get their purchases as quick as possible. And how is this not a case of inflation?

An appeal to authority or argument by authority is a type of argument in logic consisting on basing the truth value of an assertion on the authority, knowledge, expertise, or position of the person asserting it. It is also known as argument from authority, argumentum ad verecundiam (Latin: argument to respect) or ipse dixit (Latin: he himself said it). It is one method of obtaining propositional knowledge, but a fallacy in regard to logic, because the validity of a claim does not follow from the credibility of the source. The corresponding reverse case would be an ad hominem attack: to imply that the claim is false because the asserter lacks authority or is otherwise objectionable in some way.

I know you would like to flash your achievements here and there, but I would really appreciate a non-fallacious argument.

A level isn't a degree. It's fairly worthless if true be told. Just makes people CV prettier for college applications.

I'm going apologize for assuming a level to be a degree previously. I thought people would only show off their credibility in education from real life when they have at least a degree from a university.

A level is the examination you pass before entrance to university in the UK. It's not worth a lot due to the decrease in requirements from curriculum during the last few decades (but that's not the fault of students!).

Its even funnier that people are claiming inflation in a Flea Market styled economy. GW has 2 seperate economies.

rather apathetic with regards to lootscaling, although I will marginally /sign it on one condition, which is the banning of ursan/and such skills in elite pve areas (Uw in particular.) Oh yea revert the fame system too.

LS is fine

Seems people REALLY get confused with what inflation is. Inflation is NOT high prices, it is RISING prices. In the early days of GW, or new chapters, certain things were high priced, but those prices always fell, that is DEFLATION, all happeneing with farmers doing their pre-loot nerf runs. DEFLATION, understand? I'll say it again for you, prior to the loot nerf we had DEFLATION.

BTW, A-Levels are not that low a qualification, and Economics is pretty specialised, so I would say that anyone with an A-Level in economics will know a lot more than anyone else who does not have anything specific, ie, just about everyone else in this thread who only have degrees in aarmchair economics.

The link you posted actually supports what most of us are saying. GW was experiencing deflation from those dizzy heights when Sup vigours were 100k+.
Just before the loot nerf if my memory is correct Sup vigours had fallen in price to around 30-40k ish? HM was the real cause of gold items/ superior runes falling in price as rapidly as they did. The cause? yep, that old favourite supply. A massive increase in supply.
In GW nothing breaks. Once your character has a sup vigour, it won't wear out, won't need replacing. It lasts forever but Sup vigours still keep dropping and the demand for them falls as the supply rises. It don't take a genius to work out that this will cause the price to fall at a trader.
oh btw. supply is not large and fixed. It's large and growing.

to answer your green weapon example.
Price is based on a balance of supply and demand. There will always be trades made above and below this balance point at around the market price.
Say this person did pay double what this item was really worth, in the grand scheme of things this won't affect the market price based on supply/demand.

Anet wanted to put some boundaries on solo playing style. They did a good job IMO.

So what if the supply of gold in the game increases faster (much faster with no LS) than the supply of goods?

Huh? WHat then?

INFLATION!

Did you play the game before LS? There was no evidence of this happening for 2 years!! We had deflation during this period. What makes you think now will be any different?

I know I keep asking but show me some evidence!!

Been playing this game for ages.

We witnessed some things increasing in price, some decreasing.

We also witnessed an enormous and growing gap between the ultra rich and the poor. You either solo farmed and were mega-wealthy, making 30k or more per hour, or you did not (or could not) solo farm and made only a tiny fraction of that.

That was bad game design. And not fun for those who did not/could not solo farm.

Lootscaling was introduced along with Hard Mode. Have you given any thought to the notion that the inflation it's supposed to prevent might not be existing inflation, but inflation that would result from Hard Mode farming with full drops? I have, and it makes sense. For example, without loot scaling, all those hordes of people doing raptor runs would add 50k+ gold per hour to the economy just selling junk to the merchant.

Or rather I should say, we saw huge inflation on high-end items that only solo farmers were in the market for.

So yes, you're very wrong. There was plenty of inflation. Just not necessarily on certain things. Just cool stuff.

And yet before loot scaling we had deflation! Go figure how wrong your are based on what actually happened in the game. The facts and history of the game do not support you hypothesis. We know what happened in the economy before the loot nerf, we don't have to theorise, the prices came down.

And the ultra rich? They didn't get rich through farming white/blue merch fodder. There are still ultra rich in the game, wanna buy polar bear? good luck with that. Is it a problem? No, of course not, the ultra rich and their desire for ultra rare items do not concern or affect 99.9% of players.

Okay, I JUST pointed out that high end items weren't deflating. I sold a gold axe for 340k back before LS. Do you think people could regularly afford stuff like that without solo farming? Just one example.

Sheesh... some kid could solo farm for three hours after school, four times in a week and bank 350-400k! That's insane money.

And that kid would go out and bid items up to insane prices. Not runes. I'm talking the finer things.

And yes, the ultra-rich did get rich solo farming mass white/blue/purple/gold crap all day. That method let to insanely huge incomes. That's how it worked.

Let me give you dense folk an example. There are many more like this.

Way back when, the Sephis Axe was highly sought after. 15^50's used to sell for 100k which was a whole lotta cash back in the proph days!

Then they sold for 200k.

When I started working on my treasure hunter title (when just proph-factions were out), I pulled two of them. I sold them for 280k and 320k.

Solo farming was in full swing. Prices on all kinds of nice stuff was SOARING.

(then inscribable ones started dropping in NF and gwen and the price went into the tank on this item, which is beside the point since it was a change in game design)

OK! We have gone from all things inflating to just the finer things. We are making progress!!

Here I will cut you some slack. The ultra rare items MAY rise in price. But it will not be sustainable and after a short period of time will then drop back into deflating in value.
As Fay pointed out, given that these things do not matter to 99.9% of the population of GW why should this be of concern. And surely every healthy economy needs "the finer things" that have value. Because if they do not have value do they not lose their shininess?

How much were Sephis Axes just before the loot nerf?
How much do high end items go for now, 1 year after the loot nerf?
Who are the dense folk?

You are?

Because you didn't read/process what I wrote:

"(then inscribable ones started dropping in NF and gwen and the price went into the tank on this item, which is beside the point since it was a change in game design)"

This is EXACTLY my point.

One big reason the "finer things don't matter to 99.9% of the population" is because of the gap between rich and poor. And you're asking for LS removal which makes the rich solo farmers, much much richer - while the normal players get much much poorer, relatively speaking.

So yeah, you want a game where pretty much only solo farmers having access to high-end items. And anyone who plays the game normally will never be able to afford high-end stuff... Unless the normal player saves for a year or something, then they'll be able to get something a solo farmer can afford in a tiny fraction of that. Which is total crap IMO.

Keep in mind that most people who play this game don't know how to solo farm. They probably don't even know it exists. Your desires are the epitome of extreme elitism.

You spend your time arguing with dense people that repeatedly prove you wrong? And then choose insults as your best option to win a debate?

Wow!

My apologies, I shall ignore your posts from now on.

low prices are good for the average buyer
for the greedy seller, not so much

Since you didn't read what I wrote, and said something pointless because of it, I had assumed you already were.