Should Lootscaling be removed after the new Rtm policy? - Guild Wars Guru archive powered by Guild Wars Legacy

cebalrai

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Mar 2007

Mature Gaming Association

Me/E

29 Mar 2008 at 02:05 - 1121

Quote:

Originally Posted by JeniM

Another fine example of skill>time

I think the numbers in the poll speak for themselves. The majority of the customer base (that have voted, i'm not making a generalisation) want Loot Scaling out, so as that would actually make us happy and is what we have asked Anet for, I somehow bet it doesn't happen.

Duping makes people happy. And a huge percentage of people say "so what, it doesn't affect me".

So should Anet allow it?

Savio

Teenager with attitude

Join Date: Jul 2005

Fifteen Over Fifty [Rare]

29 Mar 2008 at 02:06 - 1122

Quote:

Originally Posted by JeniM

The majority of the forum base (that have voted, i'm not making a generalisation) want Loot Scaling out

Fixed. Alternatively you could put "farmers" there instead.

JeniM

Desert Nomad

Join Date: May 2007

W/E

29 Mar 2008 at 02:09 - 1123

Quote:

Originally Posted by Savio

Fixed. Alternatively you could put "farmers" there instead.

Yes the number count for nothing. And if you read my post before changing it you'd see I wrote "that have voted". I'm not implying if you asked EVERY GW's player that 67% would say remove LS, but that is the proportion that this poll suggests

Savio

Teenager with attitude

Join Date: Jul 2005

Fifteen Over Fifty [Rare]

29 Mar 2008 at 02:44 - 1124

No, it doesn't suggest it at all. Forumgoers are not representative of the total GW playerbase. Read biased sample, especially the examples section.

HawkofStorms

Hall Hero

Join Date: Aug 2005

E/

29 Mar 2008 at 03:05 - 1125

Quote:

Originally Posted by JeniM

Another fine example of skill>time

I think the numbers in the poll speak for themselves. The majority of the customer base (that have voted, i'm not making a generalisation) want Loot Scaling out, so as that would actually make us happy and is what we have asked Anet for, I somehow bet it doesn't happen.

And the majority of college kids in the US want the drinking age limit lowered/abolished.

But it ain't going to happen. People don't always know what is best for them.

JeniM

Desert Nomad

Join Date: May 2007

W/E

29 Mar 2008 at 03:19 - 1126

Some of the other scenario's you parralle are totally different mechanics, situations and totally irrelevent

byteme!

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jan 2006

On Earth

W/P

29 Mar 2008 at 03:48 - 1127

More work...less pay. Sounds like real life. Not good in my book any day. Remove LS please.

tmakinen

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Nov 2005

www.mybearfriend.net

Servants of Fortuna [SoF]

E/

29 Mar 2008 at 06:13 - 1128

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sleeper Service

Maybe i got this wrong but does that graph mean that waiting for 60 seconds before killing anything increases the potential drop rate on the first monster.

Yes, absolutely. Waiting for at least 2 minutes gives a practically 100% drop probability in that instance.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sleeper Service

are you saying that: If you wait, kill a monster and get a drop, the rest of the instance will benefit from higher drop rates.

Well, no. After you get a drop, that becomes the next reference point and depending on how fast you kill the next monster the waste rate is adjusted again.

In practice, for that particular run (Diessa Lowlands gargoyles) if you wait for 2 minutes after entering the explorable, then start farming normally (one at a time, no AoE please) you'll notice that about 99% of the monsters you kill drop their loot, as if there was no LS at all. This is possible because the monetary value of the drops is so low as to keep the adjustment essentially pegged at zero waste for the whole time. Because of the huge disparity in the actual vs. merchant value of a gargoyle skull the farming run is very profitable, yielding about 40-50k per hour, come Wintersday.

IlikeGW

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Aug 2005

30 Mar 2008 at 19:56 - 1129

Quote:

Originally Posted by JeniM

Yes the number count for nothing. And if you read my post before changing it you'd see I wrote "that have voted". I'm not implying if you asked EVERY GW's player that 67% would say remove LS, but that is the proportion that this poll suggests

Far more than 67% imo, the poll was added quite late and people in the beginning were just leaving /signed or whatever with no interest in checking the thread. So that gave detractors a clearer shot at gaming the poll.

MithranArkanere

Underworld Spelunker

Join Date: Nov 2006

wikipedia.org/wiki/Vigo

Heraldos de la Llama Oscura [HLO]

E/

30 Mar 2008 at 20:28 - 1130

Unfortunately, 'what people want' it's no always the best thing to do. Just watch the movie: "Idiocracy".

CyberNigma

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Jan 2006

San Antonio, TX

W/R

30 Mar 2008 at 23:29 - 1131

Quote:

Originally Posted by HawkofStorms

And the majority of college kids in the US want the drinking age limit lowered/abolished.

But it ain't going to happen. People don't always know what is best for them.

Nice job in reducing the majority of the playerbase to adolescents. who knows, it may be true, and some of us that aren't may be in the minority...

I didn't go straight to college. I was on Camp Pendleton when I was early college-age, which meant I was legal age to drink on base. You are right, not everyone agrees that others know what is right for them. In my case, the military decided what was right and not the civilians that prevented me from drinking off-base.

EDIT: The more accurate comparison has to do with local taxes. Loot scaling was a tool used to try and defeat botting and professional farming. Now that they have other, more effective tools to do so, it has outlived its original purpose. It's the same with local taxes that are raised in order to pay for something the local government claims it needs. Seldom are those taxes then reduced back to normal once that purpose have been fulfilled.

There are some good, potential politicians in here :-)

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Ork Pride

Banned

Join Date: May 2005

30 Mar 2008 at 23:32 - 1132

Quote:

Originally Posted by MithranArkanere

Unfortunately, 'what people want' it's no always the best thing to do. Just watch the movie: "Idiocracy".

having something that only a small portion of the people want is a bad thing too.

yum

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Sep 2007

W/E

30 Mar 2008 at 23:34 - 1133

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ork Pride

having something that only a small portion of the people want is a bad thing too.

True. Never underestimate the stupidity of the crowd.

The Meth

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jan 2007

R/

04 Apr 2008 at 16:43 - 1134

Keep lootscaling. The quote from the first post is mostly a bunch of crap. Removing lootscaling will ONLY help those who are in groups lower then the maximum, which means they are farming. And I really don't care one bit about those who farm.

If materials/rare materials start to cost more (due to inflation), and normal players (ie ones not farming) get the same money as before, then you are effectively hurting the normal players, who are now forced to farm if they want what they had before.

Ate of DK

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Oct 2005

Netherlands

None but Fools [nuts]

04 Apr 2008 at 16:51 - 1135

/not signed

Ever since LS was introduced I enjoyed playing GW more.

MithranArkanere

Underworld Spelunker

Join Date: Nov 2006

wikipedia.org/wiki/Vigo

Heraldos de la Llama Oscura [HLO]

E/

04 Apr 2008 at 17:17 - 1136

There are some things to be changed when people ask about it.
Ans some to be changed for the sake of the game as it currently is or due to impossibilities.

3 heroes, auction house, lootscaling, pre-Searing separated from the rest of the game... those are examples of things that should stay like that no matter how much people ask otherwise.

Let's go to other things that are really needed, like the storage and market problems, which need things like armor unlocking and the Xunlai Marketplace.

Fay Vert

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Apr 2006

R/

04 Apr 2008 at 17:20 - 1137

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Meth

Keep lootscaling. The quote from the first post is mostly a bunch of crap. Removing lootscaling will ONLY help those who are in groups lower then the maximum, which means they are farming. And I really don't care one bit about those who farm.

If materials/rare materials start to cost more (due to inflation), and normal players (ie ones not farming) get the same money as before, then you are effectively hurting the normal players, who are now forced to farm if they want what they had before.

You realise that the cost of many materials has gone up since the loot nerf?

Pre loot nerf = deflation
post loot nerf = inflation

FrAnt1c??

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jan 2007

Belgium

Legion Of Sacred Light [LSL]

Mo/

04 Apr 2008 at 17:34 - 1138

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fay Vert

You realise that the cost of many materials has gone up since the loot nerf?

Pre loot nerf = deflation
post loot nerf = inflation

That is mostly because there is a constant demand for these materials due to the many people that need them for consumables.

MithranArkanere

Underworld Spelunker

Join Date: Nov 2006

wikipedia.org/wiki/Vigo

Heraldos de la Llama Oscura [HLO]

E/

04 Apr 2008 at 17:44 - 1139

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fay Vert

You realise that the cost of many materials has gone up since the loot nerf?

Pre loot nerf = deflation
post loot nerf = inflation

Rare materials are OUT of lootscalling.
Normal materials can be easily acquired in big bulks by salvaging weapons and armor.

Do you need glittering dust? Go to the jade sea or echovald and kill some things.
Salvage the jade/amber items, and you'll get a ton of it. And some wood and few other materials as an extra gift.

Devine [TIGO]

Academy Page

Join Date: Mar 2007

Fife, Scotland

OLDSCHOOL [nubs]

W/

04 Apr 2008 at 18:19 - 1140

/signed

it was a bummer that they couldnt have done this before to save us all being hit by LS yet again the botters ruined it for us all, now if they are gone then yes i do belive in removing loot scaling!

although i dont see how banning ip-addresses will stop botters, as external ip srvice provders use class a addresses, there are trillions of addresses availible most of which are dynamic so it will not stop botters unless they have a fixed ip which is very rare for a domestic user

JeniM

Desert Nomad

Join Date: May 2007

W/E

04 Apr 2008 at 20:01 - 1141

More people that voted want ****ing delicious cake than LS!

Cab Tastic

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Apr 2007

Rt/

04 Apr 2008 at 21:37 - 1142

Interesting thread this.

One because it shows the depth of feeling against loot scaling and also the fact that a lot of common misconceptions have been debunked.

i.e. it causes inflation etc.

One question I would like to ask the people who are for LS is this. How do you think it would effect you if LS was removed?

The Meth

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jan 2007

R/

05 Apr 2008 at 15:06 - 1143

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fay Vert

You realise that the cost of many materials has gone up since the loot nerf?

Pre loot nerf = deflation
post loot nerf = inflation

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

People who play in normal size parties, including parties of heroes and henchman, will see no difference at all from loot scaling.

'Lootscaling' has absolutely no effect on the drops of anyone who isn't farming. I will say that the drop rate of items has gone down (I used to fill inventory doing most missions, now i get maybe 1/2 or 1/4th full) but thats not lootscaling, thats just the drop rate being nerfed.

Lootscaling hurts farmers, and doesn't do anything for normal players. Normal players therefore have a relatively higher purchasing power. Besides, the only time lootscaling is applied is for gold, crap whites, and common materials. Its essentially an inflation-protector.

For the economy its better that players farm rare items or materials (who's real-world equivilent would be a useful product) rather then farming gold (who's real-world equivilent would be everyone having a printing press of money in their basement)

Tyla

Emo Goth Italics

Join Date: Sep 2006

05 Apr 2008 at 15:35 - 1144

Wow, Meth, and I thought it was loot scaling! I guess my lucks just rotten...

Master Knightfall

Banned

Join Date: Dec 2007

05 Apr 2008 at 15:42 - 1145

Quote:

One question I would like to ask the people who are for LS is this. How do you think it would effect you if LS was removed?

Because it would open the door on drops to an insurmountable level and thus just bring prices DOWN even futher than it already is with just hard mode drops. Loot scaling is GREAT for the economy as at least it will keep prices up there for the goods that I do sell from time to time. I want casual players to continue to get meager drops and still have to rely on me and others like me for the really quality skins in the game. Take away that and you have taken away the majority of what the economy is built upon in the first place..supply and demand. Loot scaling keeps supply down and demand up as it should be. <grin>

Quote:

Besides, the only time lootscaling is applied is for gold, crap whites, and common materials.

Another that doesn't know what he's talking about. Lootscaling applies to blues and purples as well as gold, crap whites and common materials.

MithranArkanere

Underworld Spelunker

Join Date: Nov 2006

wikipedia.org/wiki/Vigo

Heraldos de la Llama Oscura [HLO]

E/

05 Apr 2008 at 15:47 - 1146

Quote:

Originally Posted by Master Knightfall

Because it would open the door on drops to an insurmountable level and thus just bring prices DOWN even futher than it already is with just hard mode drops. Loot scaling is GREAT for the economy as at least it will keep prices up there for the goods that I do sell from time to time. I want casual players to continue to get meager drops and still have to rely on me and others like me for the really quality skins in the game. Take away that and you have taken away the majority of what the economy is built upon in the first place..supply and demand. Loot scaling keeps supply down and demand up as it should be. <grin>

/point
/laugh
It will make that those that farm get more money that those that not.
Just that. Nothing else.

Farming is NOT the way to get money, and removing lootscaling would force farming to be the only way to get money to match other players.

Loot scalling has nothing to do with supply and demand. Rare items keeps dropping, loot scalling just removes part of the merchant fodder between rare drops.

Fay Vert

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Apr 2006

R/

05 Apr 2008 at 15:58 - 1147

All this conjecture about what would happen to the game if the loot nerf is removed. lol.

We KNOW what would happen, the game would go back to being great again, just like it was before, only now we wont have the bots and rmt traders that ANet never used to do anythign about so it would be better!

ANet, please stop making this game suck, bring the fun back, bring the diversity of gameplay back, stop forcing people to play in a very narrow prescriptive way that stifles everything that was great in GW.

Master Knightfall

Banned

Join Date: Dec 2007

05 Apr 2008 at 16:03 - 1148

Quote:

Originally Posted by MithranArkanere

/point
/laugh
It will make that those that farm get more money that those that not.
Just that. Nothing else.

Farming is NOT the way to get money, and removing lootscaling would force farming to be the only way to get money to match other players.

Loot scalling has nothing to do with supply and demand. Rare items keeps dropping, loot scalling just removes part of the merchant fodder between rare drops.

Wrong again /point at /laughs at

Loot scaling keeps solo farmers loot down. Loot scaling also makes playing in normal mode a very low drop rate solo or otherwise. Play solo in normal mode as opposed to Hard Mode. They both have loot scaling. Loot scaling was also designed to make it fairer for those that play in full groups to get a decent amount of drops as opposed to the solo farmer in either normal mode or hard mode. Hard mode just gives more of everything, but, loot scaling is still present in both in the amount of drops dependent on time and size of group. Thus loot scaling keeps the number of drops DOWN on ALL accounts and that is my point and why it should REMAIN so. More DEMAND and LESS SUPPLY means more money for ME. <grin>

Quote:

Farming is NOT the way to get money

And this quote just made you the dumbest person I ever met on a forum or anywhere else
/points at /laughs at /shakes head at /laughs at some more

MithranArkanere

Underworld Spelunker

Join Date: Nov 2006

wikipedia.org/wiki/Vigo

Heraldos de la Llama Oscura [HLO]

E/

05 Apr 2008 at 16:25 - 1149

Tsk... diversitity, great...
You just don't know what you say.

The game is fun when you PLAY it, not when you just kill again and again the very same mob of monsters.

If you play the game normally, in normal parties, with... well... with not normal people. You'll get fun.

If you idea of fun is killing a group again and again and then sell everything you get to the merchant, untill you fill the Storage with gold, then, there's something wrong with you getting GW, because you missed the point and got the wrong game to play.

Phineas

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Nov 2005

UK

05 Apr 2008 at 18:38 - 1150

People may not decide what is or is not fun for other people. If they paid for GW then they are entitled to play it in whatever way they choose (within the scope of the EULA). I used to love farming solo for the thrill of defeating a large mob single-handed and standing in a pile of loot. That, to me, was fun. Don't forget that a farmer does not necessarily repeat the same area incessantly. I used to run a certain map maybe 4 or 5 times, get bored of it (cos we farmers are not bots, just humans with limited patience) and then go some place else and do a different run, using another skill bar.

And surely a farmer's quest to fill his storage plat to max is nothing more or less than any other title grinder?

DivineEnvoy

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Sep 2005

Me/P

05 Apr 2008 at 19:33 - 1151

Just to summarize the last 50 pages or so, we'll have the following statement:

There exists people who want to earn their ingame wealth through solo farms, and they want these type of farming to be profitable enough to support their expenses.

Then there are hundreds of reasons to support this argument, from the game of being fun to experimental hypothesis of how there are more effects to loot scaling.

Just to clarify the situation and the given statement, there are still many ways to produce a good amount of income to balance out with one's expenses. This implies that even though there are enough gold out there for people to earn it, these people will not be satisifed, because they did not earn it through solo farms.

We also need to note that Anet intends the game to be played with a full party. There are players who wish the game to be played with merely solo, so it is more or less a player versus developer case we have here. Good luck to you anti-loot scaling people; I bet you'll need it.

HawkofStorms

Hall Hero

Join Date: Aug 2005

E/

05 Apr 2008 at 19:51 - 1152

The cost of many materials have gone up because of consumables (a huge money and material sink).

It has NOTHING to do with loot scaling (if it did, then stuff NOT used in popular consumables like wood would also increase in value). Instead, only stuff used in consumable crafting is expensive (dust, feathers, iron, etc).

Fril Estelin

So Serious...

Join Date: Jan 2007

London

Nerfs Are [WHAK]

E/

05 Apr 2008 at 19:52 - 1153

Quote:

Originally Posted by DivineEnvoy

Just to clarify the situation and the given statement, there are still many ways to produce a good amount of income to balance out with one's expenses. This implies that even though there are enough gold out there for people to earn it, these people will not be satisifed, because they did not earn it through solo farms.

I left the discussion around page 20 IIRC, but I want to emphasize as much as possible the point you mention above:

there's very, very clearly enough to buy a lot (not everything) of stuff; I've started farming occasionally a little while ago (due to the difficulty to get anything long done, because of family life) and I'm amazed at the quantity of money I'm earning from meaching IDed stuff and just a little bit of selling in-game and via GWGauction. I'm almost to the point where I can buy an elite armor set every 10 days, and I'm playing very casual (cleared a few RoT quests last week).

I initially thought that removing LS could benefit casual and "easy" (but not lazy) players, but I changed my mind and this confirms it. Apart from changing the scale of farming benefits (but not necessarily of the buying power of the farmer, since it's pretty much unknown how the market would react to removing LS), I'm not sure it'd help casual player or make the game (via its economy) any better.

MithranArkanere

Underworld Spelunker

Join Date: Nov 2006

wikipedia.org/wiki/Vigo

Heraldos de la Llama Oscura [HLO]

E/

05 Apr 2008 at 20:01 - 1154

It's just that. Some people is used to farming, and can't understand how does things really work in GW.

They can't break with the statement:
- I need money -> I go farm.

Fril Estelin

So Serious...

Join Date: Jan 2007

London

Nerfs Are [WHAK]

E/

05 Apr 2008 at 20:07 - 1155

Quote:

Originally Posted by MithranArkanere

- I need money -> I go farm.

Well, to be completely honest, you don't NEED money because you don't really need these items (well, I needed one insigniable armor set in addition to my flameforged and basic Tyrian, but the next one is purely for the aesthetics and the HoM). I'm also going for d-cores and glacial stones, but slowly without any kind of excessive rush, and this gives you ample money, unless you're after a mini panda or polar bear or a third set of FoW armor!

As many have said before in this thread, this is no longer a need, this is more like envy. I guess it's not fun in the long fun, but I still have to go guardian and vanquish for that.

Master Knightfall

Banned

Join Date: Dec 2007

05 Apr 2008 at 20:49 - 1156

Quote:

Originally Posted by MithranArkanere

Tsk... diversitity, great...
You just don't know what you say.

The game is fun when you PLAY it, not when you just kill again and again the very same mob of monsters.

If you play the game normally, in normal parties, with... well... with not normal people. You'll get fun.

If you idea of fun is killing a group again and again and then sell everything you get to the merchant, untill you fill the Storage with gold, then, there's something wrong with you getting GW, because you missed the point and got the wrong game to play.

LOL says YOU, everyone doesn't play the carebear game like you and others do. There are many ways to have FUN in this game for EACH INDIVIDUAL person. Wow what an igmo. Someone that actually thinks if you don't play the game like they do then they are not having fun. hahaha That's even dumber than your other comments earlier hahahah roflmao.

Quote:

People may not decide what is or is not fun for other people. If they paid for GW then they are entitled to play it in whatever way they choose (within the scope of the EULA). I used to love farming solo for the thrill of defeating a large mob single-handed and standing in a pile of loot. That, to me, was fun. Don't forget that a farmer does not necessarily repeat the same area incessantly. I used to run a certain map maybe 4 or 5 times, get bored of it (cos we farmers are not bots, just humans with limited patience) and then go some place else and do a different run, using another skill bar.

And surely a farmer's quest to fill his storage plat to max is nothing more or less than any other title grinder?

Excellent points Phineas exactly how I feel about it. Loot scaling hasn't hurt anyone it's just some don't like it cause they want MORE. They played too much Dialbo and Diablo 2 and hey you loot RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOs if you really want a game that gives you more loot than you know what to do with go buy "Titans Quest", it's about $3.00 now at amazon. You will get all the loot you ever wanted to carry and store. <grin>

Creeping Carl

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: May 2007

05 Apr 2008 at 21:11 - 1157

And still the greedy farmers still complaining about how they're not getting enough wealth. Go play the freaking game instead of being so concerned about making e-wealth. The game is doing just fine. You can still farm and make wealth and yet it doesnt force us casuals to farm.

Quit whining.

MithranArkanere

Underworld Spelunker

Join Date: Nov 2006

wikipedia.org/wiki/Vigo

Heraldos de la Llama Oscura [HLO]

E/

05 Apr 2008 at 21:26 - 1158

Anyways, without LS farming is just like acting as a bot.
With it, you have to trade to get the 'extra' cash from farming.

Instead of whining about how 'hard' is to get wealth by farming, you should whine about how slow and anti-GW is to trade stuff without a trader and get wealth the way it's meant to be done.

I do so every single time I get a chance, XDD

Fay Vert

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Apr 2006

R/

05 Apr 2008 at 22:34 - 1159

Actually, the biggest whiners in this thread are very clearly the small minority of pro-loot nerf ANet fanboys. Shame the (larger) pro-cake loby isn't as vocal, it would be more interesting.

However, I don't like phrases such as whiner or fanboy, so how about we not do that, eh?

manitoba1073

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jan 2006

ManitobaShipyards Refit and Repair Station

(SFC)Star Fleet Command,(TDE)The Daggerfall elite,(SOoM)Secret order of Magi

05 Apr 2008 at 22:43 - 1160

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fay Vert

Actually, the biggest whiners in this thread are very clearly the small minority of pre-loot nerf ANet fanboys. Shame the (larger) pro-cake loby isn't as vocal, it would be more interesting.

However, I don't like phrases such as whiner or fanboy, so how about we not do that, eh?

Oh come on Fay you know they cant. How else they gonna make there points seem artifically valid.