Expertise

Owned by some touch rangers lately huh?

expertise is fine.

/notsigned

learn to play the game and stop comin in here and QQ'ing.

No. Unless of course they nerf soul reaping, fast casting, strength, critical strikes, and any other primary than benefit from the player's seconary-

There is no problem with expertise


/closethread and stop whining

Lol amen.

Expertise should get nerfed to affect Ranger only skills, thumpers are cool, but R/D's get annoying after a while, and R/P's are a joke.

Lol, free dshots and savage shots... I'll wanna see you get shutdown by a ranger for eternity and then see you QQ.

4% for Ranger skills, 2% Else.

I'm cool with that.

Besides, who cares about a few bad players whining their FotM got nerfed?
They still have thumpcrap.

The only thing i prepose for this Attribute is get rid of the Touch Skill part.

Seriously, you will not be able to play one AB without some toucher feeling you up, And theyve moved into RA now and even HB. If you nerf this attribute you would totally kill so many well thought builds, hell i suppose even toucher was well thought out at one time.

the reason i like rangers so much is because they are versitle. this is because of expertise. the builds currently run by rangers that mimic other professions is escape scythe, thumper (this is debatable), and touch rangers. none of these are hard to kill. expecially touch rangers. ive noticed most the people playing touch rangers are noobs anyway, i lure them and run around in circles and they follow me till their entire team is dead. lol.

Kill them gimmicks! Well, most of them...

2% on all non-Ranger skills.

Lol @ people who think escape is what needs to be nerfed on the r/d bar.

the poll result is pretty clear..

Wow seamlessly ressing a three month old thread, lol.

R/D's are the only thing that need to be nerfed.

I dont think killing expertise is needed, just scythes, pious, or escape.

Having read the thread (yes I was bored), i wanted to say so much, but at one point or another its been said, and I was amazed at how a massive thread could develop over an argument about degenerate, and how pretty much noone actually used a logical argument.

The logical arguement is that the ranger class is slowly replacing every other class in the game. There is a version of them for nearly every class "type". If someone finds out some kind of jank-ass healing build for them, may as well call the game Ranger Wars.

Logical ? It's probably the worst argument i've seen in the expertise debate. Thumpers do not replace hammer warriors, they are a whole different ball game. Same counts for the R/P not replacing paragons, R/D not replacing dervishes, and R/N are sure as hell not replacing necro's.

A class is more than the 3-4 skills the rangerbar usually uses. Claiming one R/X bar replaces the whole profession X is pretty ... dumb.

thats so right, i saw a r/n running curses and complaning of it not working, like seriously people rangers can't replaces these other proffesions, they can utalize some 'SOME' of there skills but can't all proffesions? for instance a crit sin or mabye a n/rt healer ar'nt these in the same catoagories as expertise?
Seriously guys rangers were made to be versatile not guys who are withheld to a bow. I have the original Guild Wars handbook and it recommended a R/W using a hammer...(this was before nf and factions)
p.s. sry bout the spellin

While I agree with RotteN, I do tend to fear a R/D over an actual Dervish at the moment.

My hammer warrior smashes face on lots of rangers.

Your taking the sentence too literally. Of course it's not a perfect replacement, it's a different class. The point is that if X build exists, Y Ranger build exists that can bash it's face in. *disclaimer: Yea, your rock. Your warrior can kill all teh hammur rangurz lawl. Nothing is certain. It's not a 100% accurate statement. Don't hold me to it.*

Half the time, the culprit is megastances with 100+ ele def (hello damage immunity). *disclaimer: I am aware that there are hexes and damage other than physical and elemental. Understand the statement for the point please.* The other half is unlimited energy, a.k.a. I spam things that arn't supposed to be spammed. *disclaimer: I understand that it's not unlimited. It's a hyperbole to proove a point.*

Disclaimer'ed the hell outta my post to get the message across.
*Disclaimer: if you don't get it now it's your fault.*

:]

/ not signed
4% is fine.
I see people propose to make the percentage for non-ranger skills smaller , I have a similiar proposal.
Why don't we nerf critical strikes to only give half the chance and half the energy when you wield a non-dagger weapon ( also the effect of the enchnantments)
Why don't we make the warrior's strenght effect halved for attack skills that are not from swords , hammers and axes (also the damage from strenght attack skills ).
Why don't we make conjure skills exclusive to eles by making the skills only usable on wands.
Rangers can't replace a whole classes , saying that your derv ( derv's need nerfing , start with WS ) , or necro , or warr has been replaced is stipid. The toucher can't make as much damage as a [Vampiric Spirit] blood necro , can't do as much damage or take as much pure damage as a derv , and for sure can't deal as much damage as an real hammer warrior.

Rangers can never replace a true class , they just give it a new twist
GW was one of the game that broke RPG molds and stereotypes with the secondary system. Nerfing expertise would be a giant step away from the original GW , and a step closer turning it into a general RPG in terms of classes and versatility.
/notsigned

But I do agree that escape should end when you attack.

ohnoez rangers can't play other classes Q_Q
guess i'll have to quit playing A/P or A/D for benefit of the critical strikes attribute Q_Q
Anet gimme maor nerf i hate versatile classes *crycry* Q_Q

yeh /notsigned IMO

You assume that because one primary is being adjusted, that the rest need be adjusted as well. Hello! If they were equal, we wouldn't be balancing them, now would we?

The only primaries that even come close to the passive nature of expertise are soul reaping and to much lesser extents, divine favor and mysticism. With soul reaping you can't control the gain of energy (diff thread). Divine favor is already balanced as needed, and mysticism grants backloaded energy returns. Expertise hands you free energy just for using a skill; skills that are much more common and broad than monk healing spells and any enchantments.

Like I stated above, which is STILL being missed by some of you, in nice big capital letters:

RANGERS WILL NOT DIRECTLY BEAT OTHER CLASSES AT THIER ROLES.

I repeat:

RANGERS WILL NOT DIRECTLY BEAT OTHER CLASSES AT THIER ROLES.

Did you catch that?

RANGERS WILL NOT DIRECTLY BEAT OTHER CLASSES AT THIER ROLES.

Take your "touch necro" and fight a touch ranger. You're going to lose.
Take your "insert dervish build here" and fight a R/D Scythe. You're going to lose.
Take your "insert sin build here" and fight a R/A. You're going to lose.

Why is this? Because they outlast you with naturally high defenses against nearly everything and an almost infinite supply of energy to spam YOUR skills.

Being versatile is fine. But let me ultimately refere to this quote:

Jack of all trades, master of none.

Rangers are slowly mastering every other class's builds.

Let me draw a pretty picture if you still don't understand.

Just for the heck of it, lets say an assassin build get these ratings:

Attack: * * * * * * *
Defense: *
Utility: *

I think we can all agree that assassin's are a glass cannon of sorts. Now, let me give you the ranger build version:

Attack: * * * * *
Defense: * * *
Utility: * * *

Naturally, the ranger will have less damage but higher statistics in other areas (stances, self heals, etc) For every bit of damage the ranger can't achieve, hes simply beating you out in other categories.

Granted this is just a simple diagram that is obviously much more complex underneath, I think it illustrates the general idea.

It's feeling more and more like the only people that don't want the ranger touched are those with 4 of them sitting on their account at the moment. At least, that's the gist I'm getting here.

I don't even know why I'm arguing this point so hardcore when I don't even play this game anymore. It's just amazing that people can't see why expertise needs alteration. I'm done arguing my points since they are apparently going over people's heads nomatter how I explain them.

And just so noone can use this card, ranger was one of my most played characters in PvP.

Depends on the build.

Again depends on the build.

And again it depends of the build being used by both sides.

The reason people put critical strikes in the same boat as expertise is because it's also a gimmicky attribute , so is soul reaping and to some extent fast casting and leadership. Those are all gimmick attributes , demanding that only one is fixed because it's "broken" is , how to put it nicely *scratches head* stupid. Eliminate all gimmick attributes and take away a big part of GW's versatility and charm or leave them alone and let people enjoy the multitude of possibilities.

We are not balancing them , narrowminded people want the "balance".
They are equal , both Strenght , Critical Strikes and Expertise have different mechanisms , but rely on the same , IT MAKES THEM JACKS OF ALL WEAPONS , Warriors make more damage then other with the same weapons , Assasins have a bigger chance for critical then others with the same weapons , Rangers use those weapons more effective ( aka less energy cost of attacks ). Rangers have stances , Warriors have more armor and assasins are natural gankers ( don't give me the crap of sins don't having blocking skills and self heals , they do have good defensive mechanisms ).

Necros , Mesmers and Eles are JACKS OF ALL SPELLS , Necros have SR to be rewarded for their killing ( or the deaths of their allies ) , Mesmers cast everything faster ( reducing the risk of getting interrupted and making a lot of damage in no time ) and Eles simply have more energy then anyone else.
Just because players made Expertise more popular doesn't mean that is OP , just try to realize the potential of the other primaries.

The battle between a class and its ranger counterpart is about the build and the skills of the opponents. The Toucher has stances to protect him from attacks , but the blood necro is going to kill him quickly ( ofc if you know how to play ), the same analogy goes for D vs. R/D and A vs. R/A , don't forget Dervishes and Sins can use a secondary profession as well , which opens many possibilities.

other classes have builds that annihilate rangers tho
R/D doesn't have condition removal, throw blind on and he's done for
small example of this necro build
[N/A toxic chill spiker;OAdTUYD61xNnF2z8s38OqqKAA]
i don't think a sway ranger can fight against that
etc etc
just cuz rangers can use their high defences and use another class their attacking abilities doesn't make them superstrong warriors
because those other classes can use another's abilities to fight back
like a monk using [channeling] for more energy etc etc

leave expertise alone! unless you want to decimate the GW population even further.

1. It was ArenaNet's main idea to make a game where you could be versatile and do more than just play one simple class.

2. [Antidote Signet]

Critical Strikes too then! I mean we have A/R's using bows, A/D using scythes, A/P using spears, A/W using hammers, axes, and swords!

OOH, OOH! And Soul Reaping too!!!!
N/Rt healers, N/E nukers, N/Mo protectors, N/Me hexers.

Can it be countered? Yep. Since it can be countered, it isn't broken. If if couldn't be countered, then there would need to be a fix. Since there is a counter, it should be left alone.

if there's room for that in the R/D build but i don't think there is

You know, the same goes for A/X and N/X. Necros rely on either hex stacking or pure spikes like Blood Spike to be effective in PvP and that's it now. Oh, and that ugly N/Rt bar.

Critstrikes is just "lol".

I'm not on either side of nerfing Expertise or not on this part, but counters =/= balanced. By that same logic everything in the game should be left alone, because then there is complete balance. I thought people were past this phase of stupidity?

When you have such easy ways of e-management as Expertise, SR or Leadership - this enables easy mode for the classes with access to that e-management.

If easy mode is desired or preferred then such e-management is fine.
If not - then it is not.

I don't feel that easy mode is acceptable (although it IS fun! I LOVE my SR!) - so I can not agree with Expertise.

/signed for a nerf

What's broken? RaO, scythes. Nothing was wrong with expertise before that, so expertise isn't the thing that breaks it now.

Its fine the way it is. Leave it the way it is.
/notsigned

It's not broken, don't "fix" it.

/notsigned

qft.

So as long as something can be countered it isn't broken?

Super Meteor Blast 1E, .25 Cast, 0R
Skill. Does 9k damage to target.

Prot Spirit counters this. It's not broken, right?

(Btw, I stole that from someone else)

Expertise is supposed to make the ranger versatile. I didn't say completely remove its ability to reduce non-ranger skills. I said reduce it's effectiveness with them.

Quit playing build wars up there and pay attention to the points being made.

Wrong, Prot Spirit does not counter it. With a 0 recharge and 1 energy, prot spirit can't be maintained like this magical spell. Therefore, your example has no counter.

There's many effective counters to thumpers and R/A's and such. Basically the every "not really bad skill" Monk Protection line, and many Paragon shouts. I'll admit, the Escape R/D is really overpowered. Seriously, an 80% maintainable speed boost and 75% block rate for 5 energy, that's broken; but I digress... one skill isn't worth nerfing an entire attribute for.

oh yes they did such a good job with Soul Reaping let's get them to change Expertise /sarcasm off

Fix broken stuff not unbroken stuff.

Why is everyone assuming this is just for the R/D meta? There are better solutions for dealing with the R/D's (such as Escape). Expertise is effecting more things than just that build. We're talking globally here.

And yes, prot spirit is a counter for meteor blast unless your prot spirit lasts less than 7.7 seconds. You fail at being an ass. Gtfo.

So you just typed out "RANGERS WILL NOT DIRECTLY BEAT OTHER CLASSES AT THIER ROLES." three times and then you claim the respective classes will lose when facing the ranger variant ? Time to go reread your own capslocked text i guess...

First of all, you're wrong. A dervish will eat a R/D alive is he's smart enough. Not to mention he could just bring [[wild blow] and get it over with in 5 seconds. Same goes for an assassin, all he needs is some stance removal, which happens to be a pretty popular skill in a lot of attack chains ([[wild strike]). The necro might be a close fight, i agree, but blood necro's are just realy weak anyway.

Rangers are master at something : being a jack of all trades. They're called "a team's toolbox" for a reason. Pure ranger bars are all about versatility : packing interupts, damage, degen and survivability in one skillbar.

I wouldn't give a damn if expertise does or does not influence non-ranger skills. I play decent ranger bars in PvP (cripshot, b arrow, magebane, ...), none of which need expertise on off-profession skills to work. However, i don't mind it working on other profession's skills. It's not insanely overpowered. Surely, a R/D has more defense, but he sacrifises damage and an elite slot for that ...

I'd rather have them not change it than pull some half-assed fix on it making everything even worse.

Seriously, just make [Escape] end on attack. I mean, you don't exactly attack while you're escaping... that'll fix all the R/D problems. Please don't screw expertise over any more.