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| My issue is why should bad players who want to be bad (i.e. by always running the same dumb builds) be rewarded at all? |
Expertise
Master Ketsu
Draginvry
I fail to see what is wrong with Expertise. IMHO, it's one of the only primaries that IS balanced. Why do you think Anet barely touches expertise, yet every single patch they nerf shouts (imbagons) and the changes to Soul Reaping (infinite energy) and the fact that the ONLY reason to use Strength at all is because it has usefull skills?
If any primary attributes need balancing, expertise is at the bottom of the list.
If any primary attributes need balancing, expertise is at the bottom of the list.
Dru Stratas
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Originally Posted by yum
Oh dear, from expertise, ppl are on SR, FS and ES now
 What's next? |
Leave it how it is forgoodness sake
if one is nerfed, everyone will then start complaining about another proffesion.
Fear Me!
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Originally Posted by valence
Primaries giving straight energy returns have been bad for the game.
That said, only 2 attributes fall under this: leadership and soul reaping. Both have been bad for the game. In lesser extend crit hits from the assassin and dervish mysticism. Energy is a balancing source of skills. Effects being to strong can for example be balanced by paying more energy for it. However other primaries have effects notable on energy as well. Take for example monks, divine favor lessens the need for healing and saves you energy over time. While an assassin trying to heal, might need to cast 2 skills for the same healing amount where as the monk casts 1 (with divine favor, healing near the same). The difference between good e-management through primaries is that the good variants can only be used on the primary line skills. For example the divine favor, which only works on monk skills. Primaries are suppose to give reason to the prof you take. Expertise is good designed except for 1 part. It affects secondaries. Reducing the cost of the ranger skills isn't that bad on it's own. You basically reduce the cost of skills that a ranger is suppose to use, and the ranger will therefor be able to use it more often. Other professions can still use it, but not that often due the energy limit. When a ranger can use secondary stuff with an huge expertise benefit, they can suddenly spam attack skills they aren't suppose to spam. Take for example the current R/D build where the ranger can spam infinite attack skills without problems. A ranger isn't suppose to do better what a dervish can do. Most people against a change on expertise give the argument that it would remove the second profession from the ranger. 'we are suppose to use secondaries'. While you are free to use any skill from a secondary, this doesn't mean your build should be created from solely secondaries (see the problem with necros?). Better yet, if you use mainly secondaries skills you should ask yourself if you got the right primary. Sadly enough, the current scythe wielding R/D build only works with a R primary. Your secondary is suppose to make your primary stronger, for example with utility skills. Your secondary is however not your primary job, leave that to the people who choose your secondary, as their primary. In other words, don't be a whammo. |
freaky naughty
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Originally Posted by Master Ketsu
The alternative may involve ruining it for good players. Not worth it. And low end PvP is casual anyways. At that level, its just a game.
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You can't see me
If you're using the logic that primary attributes should only give their maximum output to primary skills, shouldn't we nerf fast casting because Elementamesmers that run around?
(You can see where I'm going with this.)
(You can see where I'm going with this.)
Chronos the Defiler
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Originally Posted by You can't see me
If you're using the logic that primary attributes should only give their maximum output to primary skills, shouldn't we nerf fast casting because Elementamesmers that run around?
(You can see where I'm going with this.) |
valence
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Originally Posted by You can't see me
If you're using the logic that primary attributes should only give their maximum output to primary skills, shouldn't we nerf fast casting because Elementamesmers that run around?
(You can see where I'm going with this.) |
Fast Casting is balanced as all the mesmer skills are taken into account with fast casting, but they forgot about secondaries yes. Leadership they forgot the energy gain will be channeled into secondaries and the same for soul reaping. In some cases it can be interesting, in some cases it won't.
Take skills for example. The best skills are often skills with a drawback. However if the drawback can be negated you only got a really good skill left (as the skill is balanced by having a drawback). This can either result in a interesting combination, or something that is straight overpowered. The same can be said for primaries. Fast casting can be exploited through secondary use (think the most commen example would be the me/n tainter and the not so old mor me/e with ward) but so far, these 'exploits' haven't been really bad for the game so nobody cares about it.
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Originally Posted by Draginvry
I fail to see what is wrong with Expertise. IMHO, it's one of the only primaries that IS balanced. Why do you think Anet barely touches expertise, yet every single patch they nerf shouts (imbagons) and the changes to Soul Reaping (infinite energy) and the fact that the ONLY reason to use Strength at all is because it has usefull skills?
If any primary attributes need balancing, expertise is at the bottom of the list. |
shoyon456
/signed
It should give HALF the benefit on 2ndary prof skills
It could get a lot more complicated than that, but this and sin critical strikes needs to be reduced on 2ndary prof skills
If a dervish picks up a bow, its a joke... If a ranger picks up a scythe, he turns into a damage spammer, thats just plain wrong
It should give HALF the benefit on 2ndary prof skills
It could get a lot more complicated than that, but this and sin critical strikes needs to be reduced on 2ndary prof skills
If a dervish picks up a bow, its a joke... If a ranger picks up a scythe, he turns into a damage spammer, thats just plain wrong
shru
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Originally Posted by shoyon456
If a dervish picks up a bow, its a joke... If a ranger picks up a scythe, he turns into a damage spammer, thats just plain wrong
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jiggles
The op talks about r/w bunny thumpers, is he forgetting RaO is a ranger eilte, and the actually bar only uses two warrior skills?
One of which is adren based and the other only costs 5e.
One of which is adren based and the other only costs 5e.
Zahr Dalsk
WHERE ARE MY COOKIES?
Anyways, yeah... just make it only affect Ranger skills. Problem solved.
Anyways, yeah... just make it only affect Ranger skills. Problem solved.
Dru Stratas
there isnt a problem in the first place
Its been like it for how long, just leave it alone. At its present state it gives players a chance to play around with secondaries.
as a guildie said, its been like it for long enough, there is not really too much point in changing it now
well thats my opinion anyway.
Its been like it for how long, just leave it alone. At its present state it gives players a chance to play around with secondaries.
as a guildie said, its been like it for long enough, there is not really too much point in changing it now
well thats my opinion anyway.
thedeadwalk!
How's this:
Expertise be changed so that a lower number of attribute points are needed to get the max effect of non-Expertise linked skills (ie 10 Marksmanship would be like it was set to 12)? There would be no energy management aspect to it, but instead, would act like a built in minor, major, or superior rune, depending on how many points are in Expertise.
I think this would allow it to maintain versatility but without spamability. Other issues will most likely arise, but I think its the spamming that really annoys most people.
And, I just want to say, I have no problem with how Expertise works, I'm just throwing this out there.
Expertise be changed so that a lower number of attribute points are needed to get the max effect of non-Expertise linked skills (ie 10 Marksmanship would be like it was set to 12)? There would be no energy management aspect to it, but instead, would act like a built in minor, major, or superior rune, depending on how many points are in Expertise.
I think this would allow it to maintain versatility but without spamability. Other issues will most likely arise, but I think its the spamming that really annoys most people.
And, I just want to say, I have no problem with how Expertise works, I'm just throwing this out there.
Sir Pandra Pierva
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Originally Posted by thedeadwalk!
How's this:
Expertise be changed so that a lower number of attribute points are needed to get the max effect of non-Expertise linked skills (ie 10 Marksmanship would be like it was set to 12)? There would be no energy management aspect to it, but instead, would act like a built in minor, major, or superior rune, depending on how many points are in Expertise. I think this would allow it to maintain versatility but without spamability. Other issues will most likely arise, but I think its the spamming that really annoys most people. And, I just want to say, I have no problem with how Expertise works, I'm just throwing this out there. |
Chronos the Defiler
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Originally Posted by Sir Pandra Pierva
hmm but then you would have to lower the cost of many ranger skills to compensate.
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Joe L.
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Originally Posted by jiggles
The op talks about r/w bunny thumpers, is he forgetting RaO is a ranger eilte, and the actually bar only uses two warrior skills?
One of which is adren based and the other only costs 5e. |
legion_rat
I did this once but,
/notsigned
Why are we ruining GW for one aspect. OOOO my man-gina, PvP is embalanced because I suck and cant block what ever they are using.
Oh noooo not a bunny thumper! mleh
quit nerfing and learn to beat what they got. Rangers in pvp with a bow are not very effective they dont do alot of damage, They can spread a handful of conditions but for killing power they vs support, they need to use they 2nd proff. Leave them alone.
~the rat~
/notsigned
Why are we ruining GW for one aspect. OOOO my man-gina, PvP is embalanced because I suck and cant block what ever they are using.
Oh noooo not a bunny thumper! mleh
quit nerfing and learn to beat what they got. Rangers in pvp with a bow are not very effective they dont do alot of damage, They can spread a handful of conditions but for killing power they vs support, they need to use they 2nd proff. Leave them alone.
~the rat~
Jam Jar
/not signed
You see... Wammos... Meleemancers (don't do it)... and much much more, why can't you stay with R/melee? It's not like they're THAT much of a threat. They're basically gimmicks. Plus, if Anet passes it, which I think they won't, other classes will want good combinations too. You might even see flare warriors some day
.
You see... Wammos... Meleemancers (don't do it)... and much much more, why can't you stay with R/melee? It's not like they're THAT much of a threat. They're basically gimmicks. Plus, if Anet passes it, which I think they won't, other classes will want good combinations too. You might even see flare warriors some day
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Tyla
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Originally Posted by legion_rat
quit nerfing and learn to beat what they got. Rangers in pvp with a bow are not very effective they dont do alot of damage, They can spread a handful of conditions but for killing power they vs support, they need to use they 2nd proff. Leave them alone.
~the rat~ |
[crippling shot][distracting shot]
CagedinSanity
My R/W is not a thumper. She's an AoE Axewoman. Not everything is a gimmick.
Tyla
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Originally Posted by CagedinSanity
My R/W is not a thumper. She's an AoE Axewoman. Not everything is a gimmick.
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Taisayacho
just because expertise works well doesn't mean it needs a nerf. It's not like other professions don't use their primary attributes with other proffessions' damage dealing capabilites.
example: fast casting nuker.
example: fast casting nuker.
Randvek
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Originally Posted by Taisayacho
just because expertise works well doesn't mean it needs a nerf. It's not like other professions don't use their primary attributes with other proffessions' damage dealing capabilites.
example: fast casting nuker. |
stale
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Originally Posted by Randvek
Yes, but a fast-casting nuker doesn't completely outshine a regular nuker, like R/x outshines x. It's a false analogy.
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outside the touch ranger, this really doesn't seem to be true. even the R/D isn't all that amazing a build, it's just using the expertise perk thoughtfully.
but, let's go through the possibilities, shall we?
R/Mo - if you're using the /mo for anything but mending touch or a res, you're just goofing off - can't be a serious healer as a R/Mo.
R/Me - for condition spreading, a la epidemic - not going to see a whole lot of domination or illusion based rangers.
R/W - bunny thumper, anyone? again, not a serious threat, and certainly no more powerful than a hammer warrior....
R/N - the infamous touch ranger - admittedly, a better touch approach than using the necro for touch, but not overpowered at all.
R/E - barrage/conjure, anyone? not going to see a whole lot of air spikes or AoE nukage out of a R/E.
R/Rit - ok, this will either be barrage/splinter, or a spirit spammer - either way, it's not all that powerful. rit can spam spirits better, and splinter weapon has been nerfed to cope with the AoE havoc from the splinter barrage.
R/A - seriously, a joke. can't think of any combo you can manage this way that's better than an assassin primary...
R/P - packhunter, or critical bowsman. either way, not exactly overpowered....
R/D - the one that, next to touchers, seems to raise the most ire. but seriously, the e-management from expertise isn't all that much better (i'd say no better, only different) from what you can manage with a derv. escape makes the build, and a quick change to make it end on attack would deal with that.
so, out of 9 possible secondaries, the only two that can be considered abusive are the R/N and the R/D - either of which is easily dealt with. not sure, based on that, where all the whining about expertise came from, other than the fact that the other primary skill lines kind of suck. well, other than soul reaping, divine favour, leadership, fast casting, energy storage, spawning power, crit stike...
ok, so, compared to mysticism and strength, expertise might be overpowered. maybe, just maybe, we need to balance the other skill lines? expertise looks like it's just fine.....
Pyro maniac
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Originally Posted by CagedinSanity
My R/W is not a thumper. She's an AoE Axewoman. Not everything is a gimmick.
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Randvek
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Originally Posted by stale
ok, so, compared to mysticism and strength, expertise might be overpowered. maybe, just maybe, we need to balance the other skill lines? expertise looks like it's just fine.....
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Nerf Expertise or buff Strength et. al. I don't really care which.
legion_rat
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Originally Posted by Tyla
I lol'd at the "Rangers in PvP with a bow are not very effective they don't do alot of damage"...
[crippling shot][distracting shot] |
~the rat~
X89
Ok so I think I read the op like a week ago, and here is my over all feeling toward expertise. It's fine leave it alone. Why you ask, simple. When a ranger is set into any other form then straight up spread poison, cripple, interrupts, and splits they become utter crap. Look at any gimmick build you posted, all of those are easy to fight against in any pvp format. If anything look at those builds then think to yourself, "Hmm maybe We should look at the skills, not the profession and its main attribute." The game has been out for almost 3yrs, do we really want another soul reaping repeat a year ago?
Tyla
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Originally Posted by legion_rat
you missed the spreading conditions part. Yes they do help with the kill. Cripple is very bad for you but its only what starts your death. The war, derv, sins are what do the main damage. Rangers just make it easier for them. I will say that rangers are one of the best classes in game. easiest I think to get survivor with, due to the hardiness. But, they do not do more damage then the close range hitters or nukers. Rangers are about subtle deaths.
~the rat~ |
Sir Pandra Pierva
yeesh this topic is still open....
but any of the R/x can not outshine x when x is ran right.
R/A dont do alot of dmg and mostly just run around
R/N ya we all know this one
R/D fun to run but all in all without escape an as hell to kill build and it doesn't put alot of dmg like a Dervish can. D/W will own a R/D escape scythe in the face.
R/Rt the only build that i really think out shines the x for the one fact of ranger stance blocking and oath shot make it a bitch to take down and its party wide support for cheap is good.
i think i kinda copied a post before me but thats what I see on the expertiese. this is run by people who cant do anything without all their skills costing 2 energy so they can be spam happy and use the best blocking stances in the game to survive and try to outlast any of their oppenents.
my fav example is of a A/D running shatter assault and a R/A running shattering as well.
the A/D SA sin will always own the crap out of these rangers. Plus mostly they just use Escape as their elite to run away after they are the last person alive in the team and just waste 50 min thinking they are funny. And no one on the team can leave after that cause of dishonorable hex... i hate griefer rangers.
thats what we should be talking about nerfing.
but any of the R/x can not outshine x when x is ran right.
R/A dont do alot of dmg and mostly just run around
R/N ya we all know this one
R/D fun to run but all in all without escape an as hell to kill build and it doesn't put alot of dmg like a Dervish can. D/W will own a R/D escape scythe in the face.
R/Rt the only build that i really think out shines the x for the one fact of ranger stance blocking and oath shot make it a bitch to take down and its party wide support for cheap is good.
i think i kinda copied a post before me but thats what I see on the expertiese. this is run by people who cant do anything without all their skills costing 2 energy so they can be spam happy and use the best blocking stances in the game to survive and try to outlast any of their oppenents.
my fav example is of a A/D running shatter assault and a R/A running shattering as well.
the A/D SA sin will always own the crap out of these rangers. Plus mostly they just use Escape as their elite to run away after they are the last person alive in the team and just waste 50 min thinking they are funny. And no one on the team can leave after that cause of dishonorable hex...
i hate griefer rangers.thats what we should be talking about nerfing.
ShadowsRequiem
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Originally Posted by Tyla
Then where did this "Bow rangers in PvP aren't effective" thing come from?
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Rangers should stay as they are. What other class can you have so much fun with :F You'll never run out of builds lol..
RavagerOfDreams
leave expertise alone its what makes rangers fun
man i wanted cookies ><
man i wanted cookies ><
Itokaru
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Originally Posted by Master Ketsu
The alternative may involve ruining it for good players. Not worth it. And low end PvP is casual anyways. At that level, its just a game.
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They just flame anyone who has a build that they don't like, and then flame anyone that beats them, and then they flame anyone that they beat, and then they flame random people in local chat. Then you tell them to shut up and they PM you with flames, then go on Do Not Disturb when you hurt their feelings.
I think to them, RA is a lot more than casual PvP.
CagedinSanity
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Originally Posted by CagedinSanity
My R/W is not a thumper. She's an AoE Axewoman. Not everything is a gimmick.
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Originally Posted by Pyro maniac
that is just sad
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Originally Posted by Tyla
Explain how it isn't a gimmick for a cookie.
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My ranger with an axe does not make her a gimmick, it just makes me, as an original player, looking for something different in my Gw experience.
My ritualist also uses a bow.
I'm still trying to find a melee build for my elementalist.
Not a gimmick. It's just different.
Orange Milk
I have a couple of Solo Farm areas with a R/W Axe aswell, it's no "gimmick" it's what gets the job done. I've been useing a sword alot more than Axe as of late.
Tray an Water Ele with an Axe, Use Conjure Frost and a Cold Damage Axe and add in some of the Armor Skills from the Water line to get you Ele up to the Armor Level of a Melee. With 70+ Energy and 4 pips of regen you can spam Axe Attacks all day, you don't even need to use Adrenial Attacks. I useed to run one in RA just to screw off sometimes.
Uh oh, guess we better call for a nerf of Energy Storage now cause it allows Eles to spam secondary skills.
Tray an Water Ele with an Axe, Use Conjure Frost and a Cold Damage Axe and add in some of the Armor Skills from the Water line to get you Ele up to the Armor Level of a Melee. With 70+ Energy and 4 pips of regen you can spam Axe Attacks all day, you don't even need to use Adrenial Attacks. I useed to run one in RA just to screw off sometimes.
Uh oh, guess we better call for a nerf of Energy Storage now cause it allows Eles to spam secondary skills.
Tyla
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Originally Posted by Orange Milk
I have a couple of Solo Farm areas with a R/W Axe aswell, it's no "gimmick" it's what gets the job done. I've been useing a sword alot more than Axe as of late.
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Sways are still going and getting people fame, because all THEY care about is a flashy emote.
@Caged Instanity -- Original, maybe, but you're still throwing away the decent potential that a Ranger can have. No, not only BHA *insert commonly used build*.
Maybe not a gimmick though. If not, maybe my definition was a little off.
Nuclfus
The ranger is way overpowered, and not just because of expertise. No, I'm not sick of them beating me at my own game - I'm sick of being able to throw a random mix of bow attacks/block stances/pet skills onto my bar and have no trouble fighting in AB. With Expertise I never run out of energy, and can sit on my ass while I block things or run like hell indefinitely from the melee classes who can only barely keep up, which still says nothing about actually catching me. Being caught off-guard with 0 energy (if that ever happens) is a joke, since I have to wait for maybe 2 seconds before I can fight back or hit a running stance.
That's my 2 cents. While I think nerfing Expertise might actually make the class more fun, I'm sure most people disagree with me so I suppose it's only fair to leave it as it is.
That's my 2 cents. While I think nerfing Expertise might actually make the class more fun, I'm sure most people disagree with me so I suppose it's only fair to leave it as it is.
StormDragonZ
Quote:
| No, there is nothing wrong with Expertise. |
NecroticChanter
Suggestion: Buff expertise as in make it more powerful and them limit it to only ranger skills.